Metagame np: Stage 3 - 9(9) Problems

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CanadianWifier

Run Away With Me
Step 1) Get sick and tired of Weezing giving Dragalge free nukes on my team - time to innovate.
Step 2) Notice Weezing gets D-bond, put on enough speed to outpace 252 Spe Modest Dragalge.
Step 3) Get a game on ladder, bait in a Dragalge.. Everything is going to work perfectly!!

Step 4) Cry deeply.



In all seriousness though, I've been trying out this set on ladder for a few games:


Weezing @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 200 HP / 176 Def / 132 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Destiny Bond


You sacrifice a lot of bulky, sadly, and it's kind of noticeable. But it definitely has the surprise factor for the moment, and often taking out an opposing offensive alge can be much more beneficial in the long run that keeping a healthy Weezing. Also it can be paired with other defensive poison [Garbodor says hi] to take care of Slurpuff / Kangaskhans that might still be alive.

  • Fun set, can recommend if you're having problems with our new friend Dragalge :]



empidge4life
 
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trc

mellow
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Well I mean Spikes was already viable with the likes of Garbodor, Crustle, Accelgor, etc, NU will always have spikestacking as a viable playstyle because of the lack of spinners / defoggers compared to the other tiers which makes Spikes + Toxic Spikes more effective; the rise of Poison-types may limit the latter but Weezing and Haunter levitate anyway and they're two of the main ones, with Dragalge, Vileplume, Muk, and opposing Garbodor as others. Whether NU is focused around heavy offense or impenetrable stalls, Spikes will always be valuable, so it's a good playstyle and should be for a long time.
 
Q) What do the three most used megas all have in common?
A) They are all weak to



Archeops @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Defeatist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake/Knock Off
- U-turn
- Stone Edge
- Pluck

I was inspired by Haunter and Jynx to try and find something else that can check a few of the megas, and the flying weakness of Beedrill, Lopunny and Sceptile came to mind. To be fair pretty much any reasonably powerful scarfed bird can deal with these, but Archeops can also outspeed and deal good damage to other things (scarfed Rotom forms come to mind); also Stone Edge's dream of not missing finally comes true in confrontation with Mega-Pidgey. Obviously defeatist holds this set back a great deal and means keeping rocks off the field is vital. Another option could be a bulkier Agility/Roost/Acrobatics itemless set, but this gives them a turn to switch out/kill you.

252+ Atk Archeops Pluck vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Beedrill: 458-542 (169 - 200%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Archeops Pluck vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sceptile: 288-342 (102.4 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Archeops Pluck vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny: 240-284 (88.5 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO :(
252+ Atk Archeops Pluck vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny: 240-284 (88.5 - 104.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes better
252+ Atk Archeops Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dragalge: 276-326 (82.6 - 97.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252+ Atk Archeops U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 170-202 (56.2 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Archeops Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom: 234-276 (97 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

etc etc etc
 
I wanna talk about a mon that was pretty bad in XY, they became an extremely effective anti-lead in ORAS. Aurorus got refrigerate boosted hyper voice, stealth rock, and earth power in oras, and that allows it to counter/do ALOT of dmg to popular leads, especially to more balanced teams, such as:<br />
<br />
Rhydon: 252 SpA Refrigerate Aurorus Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 396-468 (95.6 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Seismitoad: 252 SpA Aurorus Freeze Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Seismitoad: 328-388 (79.2 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Sp.Def toad as example, ITS VERY RARE)

Crustle: 252 SpA Refrigerate Aurorus Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crustle: 201-237 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ferroseed: 252 SpA Refrigerate Aurorus Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 120-142 (41 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Probopass: 252 SpA Aurorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 180-212 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery






Aurorus @ Leftovers
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 SpA / 120 SpD / 136 Spe
Calm Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Freeze-Dry
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power

252 Special Attack is to hit like a truck, Sp.D cuz it's just nice, and 136 speed to outspeed uninvested seismitoad by 1 point. Fact being, the utter power if aurorus is widely unknown, and ohkoing many standard leads is just unexpected and adds to how lethal this mon isQ

Not that this is an accomplishment with the ladder reset or anything but this helped me get to #1 twice:http://prntscr.com/595tk7 http://prntscr.com/596q5a
#firstoneto1400 #itdidn'tlastlon #deathtoomfuga #Thx Swagalge

But in all seriousness, this mon isn't a joke anymore, and I strongly suggest you go try it :))))))))))
 

Steelix @ Chople Berry
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
- Dragon Tail / Crunch
- Stealth Rock

Chople Berry Steelix because literally fuck Slurpuff. No but seriously I really enjoy running this set on offensive NU teams at the moment, because not only is it a great Stealth Rocker, but it unlike normal steelix can actually check a lot of the fighting spam running around NU, what with Slurpuff's Drain Punch, Lopunny's HJK, Kecleon's Drain Punch, etc. and it is nice to have a powerful Steelix which can set up its rocks against these, while revenging them with a bit of weardown, dealing over 50% to lopunny off the bat to allow teammates to revenge kill it, while not even losing 50% to its HJK.
 

Pokedots

How should I live to be happy
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IMMA EAT YOU ALIVE!!!
Slurpuff (F) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 12 Def / 252 Atk / 240 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Play Rough
- Drain Punch
- Return

People should start running this spread tbh. The Spe EVs allow it to outspeed everything up to Scarf Tauros and Archeops after using up the Sitrus, though this can be edited to outspeed Scarf Typh (which you can't outspeed if you're Adamant), thus making it nearly impossible to revenge kill after it has set up. Jolly doesn't miss out on any important KOs that I can think of except for Def Ferroseed after a layer of spikes, but since this is a late-game cleaner it hardly matters. It also allows you to invest in bulk, and while the defensive investment may seem insignificant, it actually allows Puff to take less than 75% from M-Lopunny's Return/Frustration, and so actually set up on it as long as it hasn't taken any prior damage.
This thing is a borken-ass sweeper and I love to use it.
 

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Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
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Here to present some cores:


Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- High Jump Kick
- Substitute
- Baton Pass


Dragalge @ Draco Plate
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Sludge Wave
- Draco Meteor
- Focus Blast
- Dragon Pulse

Lol fuck this combo. This is one of the biggest "damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't" situations I've seen in NU for a good while. The threat of Scrappy STAB High Jump Kick means that opponents will scramble to their bulky Poison- or Fairy-types to take the hit; guess who makes short work of both. Dragalge's threat level escalates when it is given a free switch into the things it can wall, and when Mega Lopunny easily lures in the likes of Weezing, Qwilfish, Garbodor, Vileplume, and Togetic, being passed a free Sub is the best thing Dragalge can ask for, and is certainly your opponent's worst nightmare.

Beedrill @ Beedrillite
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- U-turn
- Poison Jab
- Drill Run


Mesprit @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 92 HP / 252 SpA / 164 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Psychic
- Energy Ball

Yet another "damned if you do or don't" scenario. Adaptability U-turns hurt, and the only Pokemon that can shrug them off will not appreciate what comes next. Mesprit is one of the best partners to Mega Bee as it has STAB Psychic to dispose of bulky Poisons and Fightings (particularly Weezing and Gurdurr, hence why it is chosen over Psyshock). Not only that, but it has Stealth Rock and its own U-turn, which only serve to allow MegaBee to wreak even more havoc. You can run less speed on Mesprit if you favor a slow U-turn, or even more to outrun neutral Sawk; I just like being able to outspeed Kabutops.
Seriously though, I find that most of the better teams nowadays simply revolve around 'a Mega Pokemon + a Pokemon that destroys Poison-types'. While the meta has several new faces, I'm not sure if the (borderline) over-reliance on Poison-types is particularly healthy for the meta, especially since there are numerous Pokemon that can take advantage of the Poisons. And people want to unban Sigilyph... @_@
 
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I have a question
What do you guys think about kingler once everything is said and done?
I'm pretty sure it's confirmed that it gets waterfall, add that to the fact that its got sheer force, one agility and its pretty much nigh gg for anything that steps in your way
 

CanadianWifier

Run Away With Me
I actually used it once in a custom game already, it's no miracle, but it does turn a completely shitmon into just a mediocre one.
The set I tried out was:


Kingler @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Waterfall
- Knock Off
- Agility


  • Dual Dance gives it the ability to shit on both offence and Stall when required, or to set up both if the opponent gives you a free turn. Dark + Water is the same coverage that Crawdaunt uses to be so scary, and it's very effective for NU at the moment. After an agility, it outspeeds the entire scarfed meta up to and including base 100s like Typhlosion. After an SD, it has nearly 800 attack, backed up by not only a Life Orb, but also an additional x1.3 from Sheer Force.

    Like I said earlier, getting waterfall added to its movepool can't work miracles, but it at least gives you a reason to try this thing :^]

empidge4life
 
I've been telling people since before it was legal that SubPass Mega Lopunny would wreck. I built around it with Taunt/SD Pangoro and Specs Dragalge, and it tears apart most balanced teams. It's not as good vs. offense, but I mean, Mega Lopunny destroys offense on its own. In my opinion, SubPass is Lopunny's best set.
 
I have a question
What do you guys think about kingler once everything is said and done?
I'm pretty sure it's confirmed that it gets waterfall, add that to the fact that its got sheer force, one agility and its pretty much nigh gg for anything that steps in your way
IIRC the NU room confirmed one night that it was just a hoax. Kingler actually doesn't learn Waterfall.

sg edit: confirmo. HM07 ended up being Dive and not Waterfall RIP
 
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Well I noticed that Slurpuff got Endure in ORAS, something many people didn't pay attention to in comparison to the Drain Punch hype.

Slurpuff @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Speed
Naughty Nature
- Endure
- Play Rough
- Drain Punch
- Psychic

I've had a blast playing with this set. It takes a lot of the positive traits from both BD and CM sets. I'd run calcs but I'm on my phone atm. Also I'm sure there are more optimal EVs for those who are smarter then me feel free to chime in :^)

It's a bit gimmicky but also pretty OP when it works.
 
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boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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Well I noticed that Slurpuff got Endure in ORAS, something many people didn't pay attention to in comparison to the Drain Punch hype.

Slurpuff @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Speed
Naughty Nature
- Endure
- Play Rough
- Drain Punch
- Psychic

I've had a blast playing with this set. It has the best of both worlds from the BD and CM sets, being able to take out Steels as well as Poisons. I'd run calcs but I'm on my phone atm. Also I'm sure there are more optimal EVs for those who are smarter then me feel free to chime in :^)

It's a bit gimmicky but wrecking Weezings like nothing is more then enough pleasure for me to keep using this.
I mean, having the recovery of siturus berry coupled with unburden is usually more helpful, but I can see Endure + WP having some use to catch some people off guard. The thing is, you already get your attack maxed out from belly drum so the attack boosts from WP would be kinda useless.
Also, Psychic is really nice on BD Puff in general to 2HKO Weezing on the switch.
 

Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
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I mean, having the recovery of siturus berry coupled with unburden is usually more helpful, but I can see Endure + WP having some use to catch some people off guard. The thing is, you already get your attack maxed out from belly drum so the attack boosts from WP would be kinda useless.
Also, Psychic is really nice on BD Puff in general to 2HKO Weezing on the switch.
The weakness policy is to boost Psychic to be able to KO Weezing, so its more of a lure to open the door for other things that like poison types gone.
+2 0 SpA Slurpuff Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 302-356 (90.4 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Well I noticed that Slurpuff got Endure in ORAS, something many people didn't pay attention to in comparison to the Drain Punch hype.

Slurpuff @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Speed
Naughty Nature
- Endure
- Play Rough
- Drain Punch
- Psychic

I've had a blast playing with this set. It takes a lot of the positive traits from both BD and CM sets. I'd run calcs but I'm on my phone atm. Also I'm sure there are more optimal EVs for those who are smarter then me feel free to chime in :^)

It's a bit gimmicky but also pretty OP when it works.
Cool set, the issues I see with this is that Weezing might just want to Will-O-Wisp you, the high chance from sludge bomb will KO you, Weezing could be running Clear Smog making the boost useless (I think, idk for sure), and the amount of priority in the tier makes you easily revenged. A cool gimmicky set as you mentioned, that can work against unprepared teams, and possibly open the door for other sweepers.
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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The weakness policy is to boost Psychic to be able to KO Weezing, so its more of a lure to open the door for other things that like poison types gone.
+2 0 SpA Slurpuff Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 302-356 (90.4 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


Cool set, the issues I see with this is that Weezing might just want to Will-O-Wisp you, the high chance from sludge bomb will KO you, Weezing could be running Clear Smog making the boost useless (I think, idk for sure), and the amount of priority in the tier makes you easily revenged. A cool gimmicky set as you mentioned, that can work against unprepared teams, and possibly open the door for other sweepers.
Oh, right, that makes sense. All you have to do is Endure on the Sludge Bomb and hope not to get poisoned :P
However, in most scenarios they will go for wisp so I guess its better to hit them on the switch or something.
 

jake

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Thanks to our fantastically speedy crew of council members, we have our initial suspect slate. As a reminder, the NU Council will be voting on these suspects (and any other suspects in the near future). Later on, if we decide to retest any items and Pokemon remaining in BL3, those votes will be open to the public. Anyone and everyone is welcome to comment on these suspects itt, although I ask you to remain on topic and don't write up tl;drs rehashing information we already know in order to make your post look longer. Discuss checks and counters, talk about the metagame, post calcs that are relevant to your argument, but for the love of Raseri please try not to tell us that Dragalge is slow but strong with Choice Specs. We want to make this as productive of a conversation as possible. In fact, along with the list of our suspects, I am going to include some general knowledge information that you can use to substantiate your argument and that doesn't need to be re-established in your post.

  • one of the best defensive typings in the game in Fairy/Dragon; resists most priority
  • Pixilate Return is a powerful new STAB option
  • physical (Dragon Dance, Fairy + Ground is good coverage) and special (Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Hyper Voice) sets available
  • many support options available: Heal Bell, Roar, Perish Song, Roost
  • Facade, Heal Bell, Substitute available options for evading status issues
  • Adaptability was released, making it into a nuke with its STABs - especially Draco Meteor
  • Focus Blast gives it coverage on Steel-types, Sludge Bomb/Wave gives it coverage on Fairy-types
  • ability to 2HKO the entire metagame with the correct move (most cases OHKO), barring Pokemon such as Wormadam-Steel
  • good defensive typing & bulk
  • Dragalge is slow and its bulk is mitigated when running max speed
  • Fantastic coverage in its two STABs thanks to Scrappy (and addition of HJK)
  • STAB Return and HJK coming off of base 136 Attack (11 points higher than Sawk)
  • Speed buff lets it outrun everything but Sceptile-M, Beedrill-M, Accelgor, Electrode, Ninjask, and Scarf users
  • many support options for offensive teams, like Substitute + Baton Pass, Healing Wish, Fake Out, and Encore
  • fastest Speed in the metagame barring Ninjask (tie with other Sceptile-M, Accelgor, and Beedrill-M)
  • able to use both physical (Swords Dance, Leaf Blade, Outrage, Earthquake) and special (Leaf Storm, Giga Drain, Focus Blast, Dragon Pulse) sets. can even go mixed if necessary
  • special sets work off of base 145 Special Attack, highest in the tier
  • Lightningrod gives it immunity to priority Thunder Waves from the likes of Liepard
  • Drain Punch tutor gives it coverage it never had before, and gives it recovery in the midst of a sweep (psuedo-nullifying Fake Out shenanigans)
  • can go special or mixed, has a nice special movepool (Dazzling Gleam / Psychic are prominent moves) and Calm Mind
  • Belly Drum set is the primary offender; +6 Attack and ability to outrun Scarfers in a single turn of setup

Please note: Our council will be prohibited from sending in votes until at least 96 hours from now, to make sure that nobody is voting blindly and ignoring discussion on our suspects. We want to make sure we're doing this right.

PS: VM me if there is any information that I've missed that you feel should be included in the general knowledge snippets.
 
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Just posting to start off with by informing everybody that right now I'm somewhat convinced on the broken-ness of Slurpuff, Sceptile, and Altaria (Good arguments will convince me to switch over!), but at the moment can go either way on Lopunny or Dragalge.
Also S/O and TY to both Raseri and Zebraiken for organizing these suspects in order so quickly, not gonna lie I wasn't expecting this to happen for another 2-3 weeks so Good Job guys <3

One thing I would like to point out immediatly that although I began in ORAS NU thinking that Dragalge would be insanely broken, I'm somewhat on edge now. Sure, it's powerful with Adaptability and a potential boosting item such as Specs or a Draco Plate. However, I've found the Choice Specs set to be incredibly underwhelming, as getting locked into a Dragon or Poison STAB respectively lets many common pokemon in the metagame such as Klinklang or Slurpuff easily set up and sweep your team, and it is frankly prediction reliant to the point that it becomes a liability.
On the other side of the fence, we have what I believe the be the more effective sets in Draco Plate Haze and Toxic Spikes Attacker. I think that while slightly less prediction reliant and alleviating the setup issues of its Specs set, the power loss is incredibly significant and leaves a lot to be desired, and frankly I find that it is enough of a jump that it almost loses its "wallbreaking" power that you seek when seeing its stats in tangent with adaptability, and especially with its poor speed, even at 252 Timid you are likely outpaced by a slew of NU pokemon.
On the whole for Dragalge, I find it an incredibly powerful and versatile pokemon, but in testing I find some undeniably existant flaws that make it so that I am on the fence on my position in voting for its being kept or not.
 
You're right, that was really quick. Great job to you and the council! It'll be interesting to see how this suspect test plays out, since while not all these threats may be deemed broken in NU, it seems pretty obvious that all of them will be leaving the tier naturally anyway. Personally, I think that all of them are most likely a bit broken, with the exception of maaaaaaaybe Dragalge, since while it is an amazing nuke without switchins, its not terribly hard to revenge and can be played around with good prediction. Of course, that doesn't inherently make it unbroken, as "good prediction" has never been an excuse to keep a broken mon in a tier, but we'll see as time passes, I guess.
 

CanadianWifier

Run Away With Me
Time for some unpopular opinions.
  • Dragalge: I 100% agree with Brawlfest about Dragalge. Super retarded on paper, really good in practice - but manageable. The two sets each have their own separate downsides that the opponent can use to their advantage. Obviously a massive threat you have to prepare for, though. I don't really mind whichever side of the fence it falls to, at all.
  • Altarianite: Only played around with it for a few hours. While it doesn't exactly sweep teams like the ''mega-mence of NU'' that some people call it, it's definitely too much for NU standards - in both Defensive, and Offensive presence.
  • Lopunnite: Way worse than all the others, holy flaming shit. Whether it's part of a core with Dragalge, or just on its own, this thing is way way way too strong. Wicked fast, amazing movepool with support options out the wazoo [Healing Wish support, Sub Pass, Encore, etc], and hits like a truck. Please gtfo.
  • Slurpuff: Kiyo had an interesting point that Drain Punch only really helps it beat the Steels that used to check it; eg Probopass [pretty much irrelevant in ORAS] and Steelix. Drain punch really only helps if you were relying on these two mons to check puff, and if you're getting swept by one now, you likely would have lost to it before as well - drain punch or not.
    After giving it some thought, I'm still on the fence, but I feel having a 75 BP move that can't miss [important for Pluff] that you can recover health with is really a huge change, as it prevents Kanga / Yama / other priority users from continuously faking you out and waiting for you to be low. You can keep yourself healthy while you're sweeping - which by itself is a rather big change - the fact that it also grants some nifty coverage is just gravy.
    Still on the fence, but banning it would be cool I guess.
  • Sceptilite: Most underwhelming mega I've tried so far [hell, even empidge impressed me more n_n]. It gained a bit of speed [its base form already outsped the entire meta bar Swellow, and its not like the mega outspeeds anything relevant that reg scep doesn't], and LO Scep hits harder than M-Scep as well. So, uh, for the cons: you get an irrelevant speed boost, lose power, and develop a bit of an ice weakness. Obviously there are a number of pros: Immune to t-wave once you mega [though nothing really runs that in NU, the best use of Lightning Rod is deterring Scarf Rotom from V-Switching, that's about it], STAB Dragon Pulse is nice for it's usual switch-ins [bulky Grass-, Poison-, and Dragon-types], and the ability to be Special, Physical, or mixed still plays a role in determining what you have that can actually switch-in. But I seriously just don't think a few small buffs are enough to break this thing. I've been asking for days now for someone to actually convince me that it's broken, or show me a replay, and no one has..
    Hope it won't get banned, but if it does, I guess that's life :]

edit: empidge4life
 
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tennisace

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P.S. Seriously though, stall is virtually unviable at the moment (I think not even QOL is using it) because of all the insane sweepers and wallbreakers atm, which means that a lot of things obviously have to be cleaned up.
So then either stall should adapt or people won't run stall? Why should we have to bend the metagame around a certain playstyle being viable and not around true balance? Stall has never been great in NU to begin with even going back to last gen; bulky offense is almost always a better play.

I'm still testing out some of these suspects but I don't particularly want to ban Slurpuff or Dragalge until the three megas are decided. I'll probably post more coherent thoughts in a couple days when I test more shit.
 
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Punchshroom

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even at 252 Timid you are likely outpaced by a slew of NU pokemon
Let's be real Brawl, Dragalge does not need that much speed to outrun prominent walls in the tier and sacrifice the power of Modest; the only reason they would go max speed is to not get slaughtered themselves by opposing Dragalges; that already is kind of a testament to Dragalge's power, in that they'd rather not let themselves (as well as their team) fall victim to each other than actually perform better at their wallbreaking duties. I've also never found Dragalge's speed to be very problematic because unlike other wallbreakers such as Sawk, Rampardos, or Zangoose, Dragalge has the bulk and typing to actually force out a variety of faster attackers, meaning that even offensive teams can be pressured into saccing their mons as much as defensive teams. Even if its speed renders it easily revenge killed, I feel it's doing too good a job at rendering most of the defensive mons (and sometimes even the offensive ones) in the tier a liability.

Lopunny I believe I can somewhat get behind. People believe Poisons are the only responses to its High Jump Kicking shenanigans, but they only see it as such due to Poison-types being so crucial in the meta. If we remove the OP Fairies out of the equation, we'd see a lot more Pokemon that can respond to Mega Lopunny, namely bulky Psychics (Musharna, Exeggutor, Uxie to an extent), Fairies (Togetic, Granbull), and other such bulky walls such as Tangela, Pelipper, and Gourgeist that can help limit Mega Lopunny's presence, in addition to the bulky Poisons that help keep it in check. That said, Mega Lopunny can still do work due to its large support movepool that allows it to potentially work around its counters, so I'm on the fence on this one...

LO Scep hits harder than M-Scep as well
Get gud and use Modest; you'll have a Sceptile with better power, speed, Dragon STAB (better than Hidden Power), and no LO recoil, aka pretty much a straight upgrade from LO Sceptile (Overgrow for Lightningrod seems like a fair trade). Mega Sceptile is easily the most effective Mega, or even sweeper in general, that I've used that doesn't immediately scream broken. That said, I will agree with you about the skepticism on whether the buffs are enough to send Mega Sceptile over the edge.
 
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The Goomy

Whitest Mexican Alive
We want to make sure we're doing this right.
So you basically want to do everything the opposite way UU does it? Awesome~

Altarianite: Mega Altaria is no lie the most broken thing in NU right now. It's typing is absolutely god-like in this tier, and it's basically only walled by Weezing (if you're running EQ). Substitute lets Altaria set up on stall, and you can even run a mixed or special set. This thing is undoubtedly broken and needs to leave. It's way too easy to win with this thing late game. Ban (is this even a serious question? lol)

Dragalge: Yes, it can OHKO Steelix with Draco Meteor. Is it broken? No. Just because it hits like a truck doesn't make it broken. Rampardos hits equally hard, but it's not broken in this tier because it's slow. Granted Dragalge does have some decent bulk, but you can beat dragalge in the team builder. Run enough speed on your walls to beat 187 speed. And you can normally kill it with EQ, etc. In addition, Dragalge being good is refreshing in a tier that has been dominated by fire spam for a long time. Finally, the thing that makes dragalge broken is the fact that weezing has to be on every team to stop altaria, lopunny, slurpuff, and check sceptile, and you're guarenteed free switches every game. Once those mons get banned (i'll get to scept), the tier won't be as centralized around poison types that dragalge can feast on. Offense also generally has no issue with alge. no ban.

Lopunnite: This thing outspeeds the entire tier, hits incredibly hard with scrappy HJK, has access to fake out, and can dry pass to dragalge on weezing switch ins. ban

Sceptilite: I'm on the fence with Sceptile, I haven't actually used this mon, and every team i have used has mega altaria which basically pushes it's shit in, so I have no idea how good or bad this mon is. Listening to people's opinions, however, have led me to believe that it's incredibly good against offense (which is what all fast mons do?) and struggles against stall. In fact, it's power output is less than LO Sceptile. So it struggles with stall and needs team support to succeed as it is weak to every hazard, and needs hazards to kill. no ban

Slurpuff: You don't even need return any more. lol. ban
 
I am in favor of dragalge being suspected. Here's why:

-It has no good switch ins/counters. Of course it has pokemon immune to dragon and poison, but because of its great offensive typing and excellent coverage move pool with focus blast it can usually just finish the switch ins of with sludge wave, draco, focus blast, etc. Keep in mind that most of said switch ins (slurpuff, klinklang, etc.) cannot kill dragalge in one hit without a boost, meaning they will ultimately die to one of dragalge's coverage moves. The only reliable and decent counter, metang, simply doesn't work too well against the rest of the meta, and so far no one has found any other reliable counter and switch in that can actually deal with dragalge. Don't confuse this with it's checks, I know it has a lot because of its speed, but they're called checks for a reason; They can't take a hit so they have to always come in on a safe turn.

-Great bulk and typing. If dragalge was ice rock, then it wouldn't be so bad, but no, it has an excellent typing both defensively and offensively which grants it near perfect coverage (especially in NU) and makes it take neutral from fairies, meaning slurpuff won't be able to switch in on a draco meteor and kill it. It's bulk is also very decent, it has the special bulk to take many hits and then immediately kill what's trying to hit it afterwards and its bulk allows it to beat mega sceptile 1v1. It also serves as a fire spam check, which doesn't make it ban worthy, but means it checks one of the best offensive pokemon in the tier, typhlosion.

-What is going to happen if slurpuff and altaria are banned? If these two were to be banned, it wont have anything keeping it from running specs, meaning it can freely wallbreak even better than the dragon fang set because there are not offensively threatening limitations to it's armada. The only reason the fang set is run is because of these two (and mega audino, which is not hard to stop compared to puff and altaria), and once they are gone, this thing can freely bomb the whole of NU without nothing to check or at least limit its offensive capabilities. Of course the specs set requires more predictions and is not as safe, but the trade off for extra damage is well worth it when you OHKO and 2HKO almost the entire meta.

-Hardly needs support. Dragalge has excellent synergy with most of the pokemon in NU, and requires no support to run effectively. It doesn't care too much about hazards and doesn't really require any of it's counters to be taken care of because there are almost none anyway. Thus, once this thing is out freely on the field to drop a nuke, there's not much that can come in and stop it without dying. It is extremely independent and can switch in on many hits because of its bulk and typing without the need for support from its teammates. It also forms really solid cores with a lot of threats in the tier on both balance and hyper offense, and even stall.

Those are just my thoughts on why Dragalge needs a ban eventually. Right now, I think it's bearable, but still slightly overpowered. Later on in the meta, especially if the fairies leave, It will be even more insane and thus I think it is worthy of a ban. I tried to do this without comparing it to any pokemon, so bear with me if some of my points are lacking a little. Here are some calcs to support my above arguments:
252+ SpA Dragalge Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 270-318 (103 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-2 252+ SpA Adaptability Dragalge Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Slurpuff: 240-284 (78.6 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Adaptability Dragalge Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 360-424 (123.7 - 145.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragalge: 231-273 (85.2 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO


All in all, once the other megas' fate has been decided, I think this this is definitely worthy of a ban. Great typing defensively and offensively, great bulk meaning it desn't necessarily need speed, the ability to OHKO and 2HKO almost the entire tier and the fact that it has no decent counters right now is why I think it deserves to be tested. Also, in the long run I think this thing will become even more of a threat when other pokemon leave NU.
I understand that against offense it isn't very good, but it's mons like this that make stall virtually unplayable which is really unbalanced.
 
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I haven't read this thread beyond Zebraiken's suspect post because I don't want to have my opinions influenced by other posts; I will read them after to see if they influence my opinion with logic I haven't thought of, but I want this initial post to be as unbiased as possible for now.

I believe that of these Pokemon, Mega Altaria, Mega Lopunny, and Slurpuff are broken, while Dragalge and Mega Sceptile aren't.

First and foremost, I tried to base my judgement on these Pokemon as best I can from the matches I've played on the ladder and against other users. I feel I've played enough matches to get a grasp on how they play, and the trends that have occurred to counteract their dominance. The ones that I believe are broken are pretty obvious really, and I think it's a strong opinion among NU players. Mega Altaria has a fantastic typing and great bulk which allows it to setup Dragon Dances pretty easily on a large amount of the tier, including the common Mega Sceptile for one, and it's very hard to break with its bulk, Roost, and Heal Bell; DD / Return / Roost / Heal Bell is a great set (or Substitute over Heal Bell) which can invest in bulk and become very difficult to take down. Defensive sets are viable, and special sets lure Weezing (Flamethrower beats Metang as well), and the tier really can't handle Mega Altaria because of this. Mega Lopunny is similarly dangerous though it's less bulky and more immediately threatening, outspeeding most of the tier and having an unresisted STAB combo. I think Mega Lopunny definitely has more defensive answers which can always switch in (unlike Altaria, which has more offensive versatility), such as Weezing, Granbull, Musharna, Uxie, and Togetic, meaning they can't just be exploited by one Pokemon; Dragalge doesn't beat Uxie for example. Nevertheless, what it is less than Altaria in that it has more solid answers is made up by is its ability to merge its offensive sets with support capabilities, making it all the more threatening; I tested out SubPass which was mentioned and it was exceptional in performance. Oh, and Healing Wish is beautiful from something so fast.

As for Slurpuff, bleh it just takes a shit on everything at +6 to the point where I've been running Metang on nearly every team. Drain Punch gives it the coverage it needs for Steel-types but so many things are also KOed at +6 by Drain Punch to the point where Slurpuff can be very difficult to kill for a standard offensive team because it can just keep regaining health. Belly Drum is a very risk/reward move in nature; cut your own health to 75% with Sitrus in order to be a dangerous sweeper, so you have to be able to afford to take less than 75% from the Pokemon to setup on while still not being in range of the opponent's priority. Drain Punch completely skews this risk/reward concept by negating the priority factor making Slurpuff a nightmare for so many teams, and with its counters being easily exploitable and scarce, and mixed / special sets luring the common ones like Weezing, I wholly believe Slurpuff is too much.

For Dragalge and Mega Sceptile, I simply feel like Dragalge, while incredibly strong and having the bulk to find opportunities to fire off powerful Draco Meteors and Sludge Bombs, just, idk, manageable. When playing against it, I never found myself in a situation where I was losing to this Pokemon and I had nothing to do, without even being overtly prepared for it. Maybe this is because I'm used to running offense and saccing Pokemon when necessarily, but barely anything on my team gave it the turn it needed to do what it wanted. Defense obviously struggles with it more but I think there's time for it to develop and discover new answers to it. As for Mega Sceptile, it's a cool Pokemon but ultimately it doesn't have enough of an impact in my opinion to mark it as broken - defensive teams have common answers, offensive struggles considerably more I don't feel it's that problematic. Mega Sceptile is actually a good presence for the tier I feel; it gives teams an easier time against Feraligatr and discourages constant Volt Switching, the latter of which is a niche never really fulfilled to the same level as it is now; Ground-types gain momentum, Mega Sceptile gains momentum and an offensive buff, keeping Volt Switch spammers like Rotom on their toes.
 
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