I haven't seen any threads with the voters and I just searched "voting threads" and it didn't show the voters, have they just not been released yet?
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np: Stage 3 - Family Reunion ("This Is Why I Created" Remix)
- Thread starter Jumpman16
- Start date
Wait, if you still play on suspect does it count?
No. The deadline for the testing process was on Sunday, June 12, so any battles completed after that date do not count for the Suspect EXP formula used to determine qualifying voters.
If you want to participate in the OU suspect testing process, there might be another one running by the end of the month, depending on the results of stage portion of the testing process. I believe this is determined if any of the stage 2 tags change after testing in stage 3.
(Rating * (4SkyminSEXP + 3.5GarchompSEXP + 3LatiosSEXP + 1.5ManaphySEXP + LatiasSEXP)) / Deviation
This is the formula that we will use to determine the voting pool for stage three. As you can see, your suspect experience scores for each suspect will be multiplied by some factor (noted in the formula), summed, and then multiplied by your rating. That product will be divided by your deviation to determine your final score. The top performers will be granted voting rights.
The factors were chosen subjectively to reflect the relative uncertainty surrounding the tiering of a suspect.
This is the formula that we will use to determine the voting pool for stage three. As you can see, your suspect experience scores for each suspect will be multiplied by some factor (noted in the formula), summed, and then multiplied by your rating. That product will be divided by your deviation to determine your final score. The top performers will be granted voting rights.
The factors were chosen subjectively to reflect the relative uncertainty surrounding the tiering of a suspect.
Why is Garchomp weighted so much, when it was the least controversial vote out of all 5 of them? It was the only one of the suspects that had a supermajority, with over 70% of votes for Uber.
imo, garchomp should be switched with Manaphy...but it appears that the small minority of people who wanted OU Garchomp was loud enough to sway the formula :(
imo, garchomp should be switched with Manaphy...but it appears that the small minority of people who wanted OU Garchomp was loud enough to sway the formula :(
but those changes dont really impact Garchomp at all, since Scizor needs a Choice Band to have a chance at 2HKOing Garchomp (47%-54% isn't much damage at all) and Latias isn't switching into Garchomp anytime soon. Garchomp already had checks in OU (Ice Shard etc) its not like one extra check will make him less Uber. What metagame changes actually impact what Garchomp can do?
The reason chomp was banned was the yache chomp set. Latias can take out that set by switching in on sd/eq. If the chomp player predicts, chomps stuck. A scarf chomp may kill latias easily, but it also has to predict. A lot of other pokes have different counters depending on their set, and they're not considered uber.
Unless Chomp throws up a Substitute, or predicts. What if Chomp decides to use Dragon Claw; Latias dies and Chomp is not stuck. What if Chomp uses Outrage, and you don't have another revenge killer waiting in the wings? You just lost your Latias, so it's obviously not a counter. Even if Chomp uses Stone Edge, or (lolz) Crunch, Latias takes a ton of damage. Latias is not switching into Chomp unless it is a last resort. Latias is not a counter, because every single Garchomp set has the potential to kill her on the switch in.
regardless of the arguments on either side it stands to reason that we are placing that much importance on garchomp because it is the furthest removed from the metagame we play now. the fact that there are still actually arguments on both sides should underline this importance. we want to hear accounts from the people who experienced it here in stage 3 more than we want to hear any other accounts bar those relating to skymin.
also jrrrrrrr fyi we agreed on that formula before stage 3 even started (and didn't post it until now for reasons that should be pretty obvious). but even if we were the "free garchomp" camp would still have to post sensible reasoning in order to vote, and then outweigh the alleged majority of people who think it's still uber (which contrasts with any "using the suspect more means you want it banned" argument so you personally would have nothing to worry about!)
also jrrrrrrr fyi we agreed on that formula before stage 3 even started (and didn't post it until now for reasons that should be pretty obvious). but even if we were the "free garchomp" camp would still have to post sensible reasoning in order to vote, and then outweigh the alleged majority of people who think it's still uber (which contrasts with any "using the suspect more means you want it banned" argument so you personally would have nothing to worry about!)
I could've sworn that Garchomp was banned for the reason that it wrecked teams even though it didn't need to be versatile. Choice Scarf Garchomp is arguably one of the best revenge killers in the game and SDChomp is one of the most vicious sweepers in the game; Garchomp has enough options, speed and power to either dent, or just sweep any team in OU... oh and let's not forget the sheer power that Swords Dance gives it. Not only that, but even if you know what moveset it was running, Garchomp was going to murder, anyway. YacheChomp was a part of his banning, though.
Latias isn't getting in safely on Garchomp. Salamence can switch in on Rayquaza if you can predict Swords Dance, or Extremespeed, then outspeed and OHKO it with Outrage. Let's bring Rayquaza down to OU because it has one check that's prediction based. Better yet, let's bring Deoxys-A down to OU because Metagross can switch in on a predicted Ice Beam. Prediction doesn't guarantee the safety of any Pokemon, nor does it support why a Pokemon should be deemed to strong or not.
Garchomp murders all of its "switch ins" and Latias, Skarmory and Shaymin-S are no exception.
EDIT: One more thing, SD Life Orb Garchomp is rape:
Code:
788 Atk vs 288 Def & 338 HP (65 Base Power): 332 - 392 (98.22% - 115.98%) - Bronzong dies with SR lol
788 Atk vs 416 Def & 338 HP (65 Base Power): 230 - 272 (68.05% - 80.47%) - Now we have the guaranteed 2HKO on Skarmory.
788 Atk vs 328 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 403 - 475 (99.75% - 117.57%) - Celebi's raped with Stealth Rock
788 Atk vs 372 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 355 - 418 (87.87% - 103.47%) - As is Tangrowth lol
788 Atk vs 328 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 201 - 237 (49.75% - 58.66%) - Then Jirachi falls
and for the lol
788 Atk vs 504 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 262 - 309 (86.18% - 101.64%)- The [retarded] "counter" to Garchomp, Cloyster, dies if SR is on the field.
You forgot Hippowdon.
788 Atk vs 368 Def & 420 HP (120 Base Power): 358 - 423 (85.24% - 100.71%)
Maybe people didn't use Life Orb for other reasons: Yache/Haban Berry let them bluff a Choice Item by coming in on a slower pokemon and initially attacking, leaving, and using Swords Dance later. Unlike Salamence and Gyarados, Garchomp is resilient, with great typing and a SR resistance, which lets it come in more than once and do its business.
788 Atk vs 368 Def & 420 HP (120 Base Power): 358 - 423 (85.24% - 100.71%)
Maybe people didn't use Life Orb for other reasons: Yache/Haban Berry let them bluff a Choice Item by coming in on a slower pokemon and initially attacking, leaving, and using Swords Dance later. Unlike Salamence and Gyarados, Garchomp is resilient, with great typing and a SR resistance, which lets it come in more than once and do its business.
It seems like there has been many issues concerning garchomp and shaymin for the most part so I don't mind their ratings being counted more than the others. I am, however, not sure why Latios is so high up there as since I always thought he was the best of all the suspects. Anyways for the Garchomp issue, I'm guessing even if latias stayed in ou and shaymin-s came over to the meta, he'd still be...well powerful. I understand Mr.E's posts about the Garchomp variants and all but I am not enirely convinced he is totally OU (actually in one of his posts, I think he does mention that he also believes Chomp is a on-the-fence pokemon). I wouldn't be surprised garchomp coming over to OU as Skymin and Latios (or at least Skymin) comes over but if only he comes over to OU...that would be, IMHO, devastating.
Well, he is my favorite pokemon but that's my opinion on the chomp issue.
Well, he is my favorite pokemon but that's my opinion on the chomp issue.
If Shaymin-S and Latios are not deemed as being appropriate material for the OU tier, then I doubt Garchomp will either. From testing, the only Pokémon I consider to be "on the fence" is Manaphy, as the other suspects really did affect its playability.
Well, I would rather have just Garchomp in OU: the reason being that Garchomp and Skymin would drive the metagame into the hyperoffensive state it was when I played suspect. If just Garchomp came over, I honestly think stall would be better off for it. The ubiquity of Scarfchomp really weakens DDMence, and Garchomp is a physical pokemon, meaning that you only have to worry about crap like Mixmence and Specsmence, so you can make Blissey or SDef Skarm your initial switch-in rather than Hippo/Swampy. You just need to use more Ice moves on your team and bias more heavily towards physical defense in order to deal with Garchomp.
I'll keep my fingers crossed...either way, we need some new blood in the OU metagame.
@Flashstorm: Congrats! Where's your 1K thread?
I'll keep my fingers crossed...either way, we need some new blood in the OU metagame.
@Flashstorm: Congrats! Where's your 1K thread?
But the question is not, "which metagame do I prefer, standard or suspect," it is, "Can Garchomp sweep a large portion of the metagame with little support." If Garchomp is forcing people to use heavy stall just to deal with one threat, then it is likely that Garchomp fits the offensive characteristic of an Uber since it almost always takes more than one Pokemon to counter and is forcing teams to be more defensive than they would otherwise have to be. Back in early DP when Garchomp was allowed in Standard, many successful teams (mine included) were just Sandstorm stall with a Garchomp added. People would use Stall just because it was better able to handle Garchomp and because Garchomp excluded many other sweepers that would be threatening to stall (mainly Salamence). A Pokemon is more likely to be Uber by the offensive characteristic if it greatly increases the use of stall teams.
Well, I'm not voting anyways...
I only played Suspect for a short time, but it seemed to me that Garchomp was easily able to score at least one KO per match. I'm not too sure about sweeping, as there definitely were Skymin, Lati@s, and (to a lesser extent) Scizor on the offensive side. On the defensive side, Skarmory and Forretress could set up fairly easily on it after it had locked itself, but the problem is that Garchomp is resilient. It doesn't need a Life Orb to generate the power that Salamence needs with a Life Orb, and it takes advantage of that fact.
Stuff like Gyarados and Salamence are one-time use. Garchomp isn't. That's probably the best argument for its uberness.
I only played Suspect for a short time, but it seemed to me that Garchomp was easily able to score at least one KO per match. I'm not too sure about sweeping, as there definitely were Skymin, Lati@s, and (to a lesser extent) Scizor on the offensive side. On the defensive side, Skarmory and Forretress could set up fairly easily on it after it had locked itself, but the problem is that Garchomp is resilient. It doesn't need a Life Orb to generate the power that Salamence needs with a Life Orb, and it takes advantage of that fact.
Stuff like Gyarados and Salamence are one-time use. Garchomp isn't. That's probably the best argument for its uberness.
Salamence maybe, but if you're using Gyarados as a 1 time shot, you're using him incorrectly.
In my experience (I played suspect for a week or 2 then stopped, and I played on a server with Garchomp unbanned a while back) Garchomp is both a wallbreaker and sweeper. Not being SR weak is a huge plus, he's the only dragon apart from Kingdra and Flygon that doesn't share the flying type (fully evolved mind you), plus, ground typing gives him an extremely useful immunity, allowing him to come in to T-waves and choiced Thunderbolts and either set up or kill something. CB Chomp can wear down even it's hardest counters with time, 2HKOing Skarmory with Fire Fang. SD Yache chomp will sweep pretty much every team that doesn't have at least 1-2 checks/counters. Scarfchomp makes an excellent revenge killer as well, even in Ubers.
Then again, 102 Base Speed is outsped by several considerable threats. It faces revenge killing prospects by Weavile, Starmie, Gengar (with HP Ice), Latias, Specsjolt (with HP Ice), and Mixape (with HP Ice) not to mention scarfers and Mammoswine with Ice Shard. I think it's safe to say that SD Chomp has its fair share of checks, but that doesn't change the fact that there is almost nothing that is a safe switch in to Garchomp apart from Bronzong and Skarmory, which is the bigger issue. If it's CB or you don't have one of the above, it will at the very least rip holes in your team and at most sweep you.
:P
While it's true Latias isn't SR weak, she still takes normal damage from it whereas Garchomp and Flygon are resistant.
Judging from my point of view, I think that when a sweeper is unable to outspeed some of the most prominent threats that are in OU, it means that Garchomp might have a lot of trouble sweeping entire teams half the time. Like the counters that you listed, a smart player might have good ways for dealing with all of the Garchomp sets (whether it's a SD or a CB set), so that means that Garchomp doesn't seem to be that big of a threat as people normally thought he would be. Yes Garchomp is able to potentially rip through Skarmory and Bronzong, but when a sweeper is unable to raise its speed like Salamence and Gyarados (heck, even Tyranitar), its ability to rip holes in your team seems to be very limited imo.
Also adding that Garchomp isn't really a pain to kill in battle when it comes my experiences.