If Yanmega has Tinted Lens, Ghost's resistance to Bug is neutralized. And considering most viable Ghost-types aren't the bulkiest things in the world, they're taking a fairly large beating from Tinted Lens Yanmega. I wouldn't call Kabutops a bad spinner per se. It's just often overlooked in favor of Hitmonlee due to the slightly higher Speed and better power it possesses. Also, Sandslash (don't knock it) is a perfectly usable spinner considering it's the only spinner in the tier (that's viable) capable of beating Doublade 1v1 with consistency.From my experience on the ladder, I'd say Yanmega is only really really good when it has spinner/defogger support and by far the best spinner/defogger in the tier is Gligar. Hitmontop gets walled easily by most ghost types unless you run Toxic or something, Hitmonlee is good but can't KO most ghost types before they burn it / wear it down to be revenge killed, and everything else sucks. Yanmega's STAB Bug Buzz is also not very effective against ghost, so a ghost type seems to obviously be a good choice to run with any Stealth Rock setter. The thing about Gligar is it beats Rhyperior, one of the best Stealth Rock setters in the tier, 1 on 1 unless Rhyperior runs Ice Punch along with Stealth Rock. The thing is there are very few good ice moves in RU, which makes Gligar in particular really difficult to KO. Thus my team had the most problems when Gligar was present on the other team along with Yanmega, not necessarily Yanmega itself. There are also no ghost types in the tier that can beat Gligar if I'm not mistaken, except possibly Taunt Wisp physically bulky Banette or HP Ice Haunter/Mismagius. This really solid combo is distorting the metagame but it's not unbeatable - Regice might work
Thanks for the replays. They were well selected.I'll post my thoughts on both Zorark and Yanmega:
I haven't used or seen Combusken on the Suspect Ladder yet, but it appears very interesting on paper. You could even pass boosts to a physical Zoroark and let it forgo Swords Dance for Grass Knot/Flamethrower.Finally I want to talk about a really interesting pokemon that I discovered during this suspect test:
With access to batton pass and speed boost Combusken can easily pass speed boosts to slower pokemon like Hitmonlee and Drudigon. He can also batton pass Bulk Ups making the receiver faster, bulkier and stronger and of course there is always the mainstream option of running SD (I tried SD and didn't liked it). With Eviolite and max HP this thing becomes somewhat bulky and you can always sacrifice speed for more bulk. This is the set I am currently using:
Combusken @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
- Baton Pass
- Bulk Up
- Fire Punch
I decided to maximize special bulk and while it is slow as balls even with several speed boosts (I can't outspeed an Adamant Hitmonlee at +3) it can stay for a longer time thanks to his added stamina and sometimes a slower Batton Pass is useful because your receiver will be healthy and ready to sweep. It can also set up in Yanmegas locked into Bug Buzz and even Zoroark lacking Extrasensory. Here are the calcs proving how bulky Combusken is:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Combusken: 72-86 (22.2 - 26.5%) -- 23.7% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Combusken: 53-62 (16.3 - 19.1%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Combusken: 153-181 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Combusken: 102-121 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- 85.5% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Combusken: 56-68 (17.2 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO
Have you tried Combusken? If so, did you liked the results?
Which is your favorite Combusken set and partners?
Do you think Combusken is underrated?
As much as I want to agree with this, I believe the roles of Tinted Lens Yanmega and Speed Boost Yanmega are completely different. This situation is almost like Specs Keldeo vs Greninja, hard for you to decide especially if you dont have that well of a knowledge on the meta. Tinted Lens Yanmega is for smashing stall teams and running through teams without a problem with its godly stallbreaking prowess. This is more like Keldeo, being able to just break any defensive team without a problem. Speed Boost would remind me more of Greninja, as the role it has is to counter offense since being able to outspeed mons much faster than it is is just so useful. While I agree with a lot of the points, I just wanted to point that outI've seen some posts saying that Tinted Lens Yanmega is better/worse that Speed Boost Yanmegas etc. I think that Speed Boost Yanmega and Tinted Lens Yanmega don't differ too much in terms of viability, or even which one is better/worse. Tinted Lens Yanmega is a BEAST, that kills Mons like crazy, while Speed Boost Yanmega counter Tinted Lens Yanmega :o. It also counters Mons such as Sharpedo (with speed boost), and quicker Mons in general. Speed Boost is also good for scouting out Scarf sets (with Protect and speed).
I never said anything about roles being different or anything like that. I wanted to point out that many people believe that one set is better or worse than the other which I am strongly against. Both sets have its roles, its pros, and its cons. Maybe you misunderstood me.As much as I want to agree with this, I believe the roles of Tinted Lens Yanmega and Speed Boost Yanmega are completely different. This situation is almost like Specs Keldeo vs Greninja, hard for you to decide especially if you dont have that well of a knowledge on the meta. Tinted Lens Yanmega is for smashing stall teams and running through teams without a problem with its godly stallbreaking prowess. This is more like Keldeo, being able to just break any defensive team without a problem. Speed Boost would remind me more of Greninja, as the role it has is to counter offense since being able to outspeed mons much faster than it is is just so useful. While I agree with a lot of the points, I just wanted to point that out
Okay I guess im going to respond to this since it's one of the better anti ban Zoroark posts so far and I want to attempt to change your opinion. Unfortunately the RU ladder is a pretty poor representation of the tier and you're not likely to find a huge majority of players that actually know what they're doing. I think I can speak for most people when I say that Zoroark really started gaining attention and support for a ban when RUgged Mountain started, this when when it became quite clear that when both players had the required skill to abuse Zoroark that it was extremely easy to lure out specific Pokemon and put the opponent in extremely difficult situations. The problem that Zoroark poses is vs offense, I will accept that when running a more defensive oriented team that Zoroark is significantly less of an issue with multiple defensive checks, defensive teams also have plenty of options in terms of a mid-ground switch to scout for what Pokemon it is, sadly offense simply doesn't have the luxury of doing that and one wrong guess can often lose you the game, even if you do predict it correctly Zoroark almost always clicked Knock Off and your reward for that correct prediction is your Zoroark check just lost it's item anyway. I just can't support something staying in a tier when it unnecessarily promotes guessing, I do realise that at some stage when running offense you will be forced into some sort of "guess" but thats more of an educated guess and you can usually use simple risk vs reward in most of those sitautions and that just isn't possible when it comes to Zoroark.After playing for a while on ladder (enough to get reqs), I have formed a solid opinion on both suspects. Pay attention that I've probably played so much LoL to the point where I think that anything which requires skill to pull off is healthy for a competitive game, so my mindset is most likely flawed compared to the standard.
Zoroark is the reason for my wording above. While it is really easy to slap Zoroark onto a team and use it for decent results, it actually takes skill to bring the best out of it. It requires close analysis of both teams, to see what it can be disguised as, detecting possible threats you'd like to lure in AND the most important part: A lot of Pokemon Zoroark benefits disguising as don't take as much Stealth Rock damage as it does, which in my opinion, plays a huge role in playing against it.
However, Zoroark per say is a really good offensive threat, with good stats, a "decent" Speed tier (missing on Cobalion and Virizion is actually pretty huge, since both of them are really reliable checks to it) and versatility, the later being what pushes it over the top for some people, and since I only have experience playing SD Zoro, I'm definitively not the best person to talk about that point. With that said, Zoroark definitively has some good checks, such as the previously mentioned Cobalion and Virizion, Aromatisse, Togetic (which can counter the other suspect as a plus) and Hitmonlee. It is also frail and has his Illusion broken when attacked, which make it hard to bring on without being as a Revenge Killer. Either that or you can reveal your Psychic-type immunity, but I don't really think that is a good idea at all.
To end my opinion on Zoroark, I'm leaning towards voting to keep it in the tier, but I'm open to the opinions of those who think otherwise.
Assault Vest Slowking can come in (even on rocks), take one hit, OHKO with Fire Blast or Ice Beam, and switch back out & regenerate. This is kind of an emergency action but it worked plenty of times for me.What's missing here is that there are practically no slow pokemon that can take a hit and kill it, and those that can aren't very good.
I do understand your point, and Zoroark is probably the best way to lure and kill specific threats, to the point where it outclasses all other styles of offense (such as using Dugtrio to trap or holepunching using high damage Pokemon in general). It is also true that I'm not as attached to the RU community as I'd like to be, which is pretty normal due to my long abscense, and that laddering is not the best way to see a tier's state. I'll give a try to other Zoroark sets and see how it goes I guess, but you do have some very solid points in your reply.
Woah there, slow down buddyOn a different note Amoonguss might go to the OU rank. Because in this month 1695 usage statistics he had 5% so how would Amoonguss departure affect the RU meta? Will we see more Tangrowth?
The 5% may have been an exaggeration, but considering a Pokemon only needs 3.41% usage in OU to be OU by usage, it's still a possibility that we could lose Amoonguss (assuming they use 1695 stats for OU tiering that is)Woah there, slow down buddy
| 44 | Amoonguss | 3.56756% |
It's no way near 5% usage lol.
you'll need a screenshot for the reqs to be sufficient, a thread made specifically to ID your alts will be made in a few days :) (about halfway into the suspect test)User: cutforbiebarel
1v11210571556 ± 63--1591
ou1652821784 ± 52--66270
uubeta1192611589 ± 80--940
randombattle1106521513 ± 113 (provisional)--330
rubeta1195541533 ± 77--970
uu1564831807 ± 52--52120
vgc20141078591573 ± 117 (provisional)--200
nubeta1512821793 ± 60--3160
oumonotype1421761719 ± 70--2250
ru1525871864 ± 54--4960
uberssuspecttest1330761722 ± 788651420
rususpecttest1445801757 ± 5024104010
0 I got the reqs for the suspect test. So do I need to take a screenshot or is this sufficient?
Magnet Rise Registeel might be another creative Registeel set worth using to combat the infamous Yanmega + Dugtrio core. Of course, which Registeel set to use is personal preference, really. The Magnet Rise set can run Lefties, plus it is less situational; besides Dugtrio, Magnet Rise can potentially help Registeel against other Pokemon with Ground-type attacks, such as Gastrodon, Druddigon, and RHYPERIOR (which registeel can outspeed). That said, Magnet Rise costs an Registeel can get caught off-guard by a smart Dugtrio double-switch, whereas Shed Shell gives no fucks. And of course, the standard Registeel set has advantages as well. So basically Shed Shell --> Magnet Rise --> Standard in order of most to least situational. Granted, I haven't used Registeel, so this is all theorymonning prompted by Cherub Agent's postYou know, if Yanmega is so terrifying for your stall team you can just run Shed Shell on Registeel ._. It has Wish support anyway and can use Rest over Protect since you'll also have a cleric. It's not overcentralization it's a minor adaptation to a threat that completely dismissrs it. Even then it sounds like most of the fault lies with Dugtrio.
More "Flaws" with Suspect Laddering that I have personally noticed:This is the nature (and "flaw" if you will) of suspect laddering in general. The goal is typically to get it done quickly rather than actually experimenting with the suspects. There isn't much that you can do about it aside from revamping the whole system.
I meant that Illusion takes skill to play with, not against. I completely agree that playing against it invokes luck, which is a negative characteristic mentioned in Doug's post that I forgot. So yeah, you're basically choosing between the Skill it takes to play with Zoroark and the Luck it takes to play against Zoroark. Whether one is more important or outweighs the other is subjective.How is Illusion even remotely skill-based? I don't even understand how people arrive at this conclusion, what a farce. Let's take a very common and realistic scenario and put this so-called "skill" rhetoric to the test. Let's say you have a Zoroark and Moltres and the opposing team (a stall team for instance) has a Slowking, where Slowking is their main means of dealing with it. You lead with Zoroark disguised as Moltres and the opponent has one of two things out turn 1 A) the slowking or B) something Moltres can force out. If a, there's no reason for them to switch out unless they guess the Zoroark. If situation B, they're put in a very tough position where they again have to guess whether or not it's Zoroark. If they guess right, they fall under no immediate penalty, if they guess wrong, then Moltres steamrolls their team. Can someone please enlighten me on how something like this could possibly be affiliated with skill and how doing something such as this is in anyway deemed onerous? As newbreed said before, dealing with Zoroark is a guessing game, and such a thing is the literal antithesis of "desirable" in a competitive environment.