Zoroark doesn't get Speed Boost, don't you mean Sharpedo?
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Metagame NP: Stage 3: Tunak Tunak Tun
- Thread starter Molk
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If Yanmega has Tinted Lens, Ghost's resistance to Bug is neutralized. And considering most viable Ghost-types aren't the bulkiest things in the world, they're taking a fairly large beating from Tinted Lens Yanmega. I wouldn't call Kabutops a bad spinner per se. It's just often overlooked in favor of Hitmonlee due to the slightly higher Speed and better power it possesses. Also, Sandslash (don't knock it) is a perfectly usable spinner considering it's the only spinner in the tier (that's viable) capable of beating Doublade 1v1 with consistency.
As far as Gligar goes, I never really have a problem wearing it down. Slowking, Virizion, Moltres, Meloetta, and most other special attackers are perfectly capable of putting serious pressure on it with their powerful and / or super effective attacks. Gligar may be really hard to break on the physical side if your name isn't Virizion, but you can pressure it rather easily on the special side.
Durant, Magcargo's problem is that it has common weaknesses, is really slow, and has a really poor HP stat to offset its solid defense. It had potential, until it was given a shit Fire / Rock typing that makes it 4x weak to Water and Ground. I'd honestly use Cradily if I needed a niche SpDef Pokemon on a stall team since it actually has a decent typing and much better mixed defenses.
That's what I meant
Yanmega is a huge offensive threat, and is easily one of the best wallbreakers and late-game cleaners in RU. The Choice Specs + Tinted Lens wrecks stall, while also working extremely well against slower offensive teams as well. Choice Specs Yanmega is therefore among the best wallbreakers in RU, due to its great 116 Special Attack and 95 Speed. Yanmega also has a great late-game cleaner set with Life Orb and Speed Boost. After 1 Speed Boost, Yanmega outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame (except Ninjask), and after two Speed Boosts, it outspeeds even the fastest Choice Scarf users. The Choice Specs set allows Yanmega to 2HKO most Pokemon in the tier, but there are still many safe switch-ins. Togetic, Moltres and Golbat are all great counters, and 4x resists Bug (2x after Tinted Lens):
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 128-150 (39.8 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 213-252 (66.3 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 64-76 (18 - 21.4%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 109-129 (30.7 - 36.4%) -- 54.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 52-62 (16.5 - 19.7%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 87-103 (27.7 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Moltres also outspeeds Modest Specs Yanmega and OHKOes it with Flamethrower. Special Defense Registeel is another good counter. Stealth Rock is also a way to deal with Yanmega, and removes 50% of Yanmega's health, making it very possible to revenge kill with Sucker Punch.
Wallbreaker
Yanmega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- Shadow Ball / Giga Drain
- U-turn
This set works extremely well as a wallbreaker, 2HKOing many Pokemon in the tier. Bug Buzz is a great and powerful STAB move coupled with Tinted Lens, since very few Pokemon in RU resists Bug by four times. This means Yanmega can hit almost all Pokemon for neutral damage, coming from a base 116 Special Attack + Choice Specs. However, with a Modest nature, Yanmega isn't too fast, hitting only 289 Speed. This means Yanmega can easily get revenge killed by a faster Pokemon, due to its low defenses.
Late-game cleaner
Yanmega @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- Shadow Ball / Giga Drain
- Protect
The Speed Boost Yanmega set is a great late-game cleaner, having the ability to outspeed everything, including the fastest Choice Scarf users, after two turns thanks to Speed Boost. That, in combination with 364 Special Attack and Life Orb, Yanmega is a scary Pokemon. I have also used this set to great success as a Baton Pass receiver. However, Stealth Rock heavily wears it down, and leaves it extremely prone to Sucker Punch.
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However, I'm still not sure if Yanmega is broken or not, to be completely honest. Yes, it 2HKOes many walls, but against offensive teams, it has trouble with priority revenge-killers. With a Modest Nature, Yanmega only hits 289 Speed, which isn't that good, meaning the Choice Specs set can easily get revenge killed by even more Pokemon. The Speed Boost set is also viable, but still possible to deal with through walls. For reqs, I have used a team with Speed Boost LO Yanmega + Nasty Plot Baton Pass. +2 Yanmega is extremely scary, but it is possible to stop Togetic from setting up, since you want to use as little Speed on Togetic as possible, so Yanmega takes zero damage when Baton Passed to. So yeah, I'm actually on the fence if I want Yanmega banned or not, but I can easily get convinced either way.
Will post my thoughts on Zoroark later.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 128-150 (39.8 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 213-252 (66.3 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 64-76 (18 - 21.4%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 109-129 (30.7 - 36.4%) -- 54.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 52-62 (16.5 - 19.7%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 87-103 (27.7 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Moltres also outspeeds Modest Specs Yanmega and OHKOes it with Flamethrower. Special Defense Registeel is another good counter. Stealth Rock is also a way to deal with Yanmega, and removes 50% of Yanmega's health, making it very possible to revenge kill with Sucker Punch.
Wallbreaker
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- Shadow Ball / Giga Drain
- U-turn
This set works extremely well as a wallbreaker, 2HKOing many Pokemon in the tier. Bug Buzz is a great and powerful STAB move coupled with Tinted Lens, since very few Pokemon in RU resists Bug by four times. This means Yanmega can hit almost all Pokemon for neutral damage, coming from a base 116 Special Attack + Choice Specs. However, with a Modest nature, Yanmega isn't too fast, hitting only 289 Speed. This means Yanmega can easily get revenge killed by a faster Pokemon, due to its low defenses.
Late-game cleaner
Yanmega @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- Shadow Ball / Giga Drain
- Protect
The Speed Boost Yanmega set is a great late-game cleaner, having the ability to outspeed everything, including the fastest Choice Scarf users, after two turns thanks to Speed Boost. That, in combination with 364 Special Attack and Life Orb, Yanmega is a scary Pokemon. I have also used this set to great success as a Baton Pass receiver. However, Stealth Rock heavily wears it down, and leaves it extremely prone to Sucker Punch.
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However, I'm still not sure if Yanmega is broken or not, to be completely honest. Yes, it 2HKOes many walls, but against offensive teams, it has trouble with priority revenge-killers. With a Modest Nature, Yanmega only hits 289 Speed, which isn't that good, meaning the Choice Specs set can easily get revenge killed by even more Pokemon. The Speed Boost set is also viable, but still possible to deal with through walls. For reqs, I have used a team with Speed Boost LO Yanmega + Nasty Plot Baton Pass. +2 Yanmega is extremely scary, but it is possible to stop Togetic from setting up, since you want to use as little Speed on Togetic as possible, so Yanmega takes zero damage when Baton Passed to. So yeah, I'm actually on the fence if I want Yanmega banned or not, but I can easily get convinced either way.
Will post my thoughts on Zoroark later.
Let's also remember that, while yanmega is strong, the bp of its moves is relatively lacking.
It's not as if Yanmega is spamming 120 bp close combats or 110 bp Hydro Pumps. Air slash is straight up weak in comparison. this makes mons like moltres and other quad resists reliable checks.
Low bp also means that Yanmega has a very difficult time with bulky normal mons, as tinted lens is effectively worthless. Audino, for exapmle, p much shuts yanmega down. Same with togetic and the like
It's not as if Yanmega is spamming 120 bp close combats or 110 bp Hydro Pumps. Air slash is straight up weak in comparison. this makes mons like moltres and other quad resists reliable checks.
Low bp also means that Yanmega has a very difficult time with bulky normal mons, as tinted lens is effectively worthless. Audino, for exapmle, p much shuts yanmega down. Same with togetic and the like
Thanks for the replays. They were well selected.
Finally I want to talk about a really interesting pokemon that I discovered during this suspect test:
With access to batton pass and speed boost Combusken can easily pass speed boosts to slower pokemon like Hitmonlee and Drudigon. He can also batton pass Bulk Ups making the receiver faster, bulkier and stronger and of course there is always the mainstream option of running SD (I tried SD and didn't liked it). With Eviolite and max HP this thing becomes somewhat bulky and you can always sacrifice speed for more bulk. This is the set I am currently using:
Combusken @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Baton Pass
- Protect
- Bulk Up
- Fire Punch
I decided to maximize special bulk and while it is slow as balls even with several speed boosts (I can't outspeed an Adamant Hitmonlee at +3) it can stay for a longer time thanks to his added stamina and sometimes a slower Batton Pass is useful because your receiver will be healthy and ready to sweep. It can also set up in Yanmegas locked into Bug Buzz and even Zoroark lacking Extrasensory. Here are the calcs proving how bulky Combusken is:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Combusken: 72-86 (22.2 - 26.5%) -- 23.7% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Combusken: 53-62 (16.3 - 19.1%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Combusken: 153-181 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Combusken: 102-121 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- 85.5% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Combusken: 56-68 (17.2 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO
Have you tried Combusken? If so, did you liked the results?
Which is your favorite Combusken set and partners?
Do you think Combusken is underrated?
I haven't used or seen Combusken on the Suspect Ladder yet, but it appears very interesting on paper. You could even pass boosts to a physical Zoroark and let it forgo Swords Dance for Grass Knot/Flamethrower.
I decided to take Suspect Laddering to the media and made a video featuring my team with both the YanTerra core and Zoroark. It did pretty well. Watch here:
(NOTE: the first 4 minutes or so consist of a very old replay that is not related to the current suspect test; I just like to keep my content varied). If you watch the video, please give feedback :)[/quote][/quote]
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I know this isn't the right thread. I don't want to lose the image, so I'm posting it here first.
Zoroark is broken. Illusion is a pretty uncompetitive ability, and Zoroark has the power to abuse it. I'm not even going to make the argument that Zoroark is really versatile- it basically runs Knock Off and coverage of specs (to trick Aromatisse or Togetic.) A well played Zoroark forces 50/50s. Due to the incredible power of Knock Off not much can counter Zoroark. If you pair it with something like Delphox, a 50/50 is quickly forced. An Aromatisse switch in can lead to a dangerous boosted Threat, or a tricked and crippled wall. If you send in something like Slowking or Lanturn, a Knock Off is quickly going to put your pokemon down. Delphox probably isn't the most heinous partner- something like specs Moltres sounds even more dangerous. There are enough pokemon out there that crap on every good Zoroark counter, and when Zoroark has the potential to be disguised as one of them a 50/50 is usually forced. The alternative is to go to a compromise of a counter, which isn't very good either (and a pretty rare scenario.) Once discovered, Zoroark is really not so difficult to stop, but it can still hurt offensive teams. Defensive teams might struggle to even break Zoroark, making him a potent threat for a large portion of the match.
The only Yanmega counter is Registeel- who is a shitty counter anyways. Honestly, I would be fine with only banning Tinted Lens Yanmega and allowing Speed Boost to stay. However, that's not how it works and this mon needs to go. Not enough 4x resists bug buzz or has the special bulk to make switching into specs Yanmega a reality. The only really good all around counter to Yanmega I can think of is bulky Moltres, because even complete stops [Registeel] are subject to Dugtrio. Yanmega doesn't have very good bulk, but it can take random priority (not a Hitmonlee.) This means you basically need to outspeed it and kill it or force it onto rocks so that a priority move an finish it off (or have it so that rocks kill.) What's missing here is that there are practically no slow pokemon that can take a hit and kill it, and those that can aren't very good. In the case of Tinted Lens it needs to be outsped almost every time, because nothing slower can take hits well. I don't know how well I communicated it, but I want them both gone.
After playing for a while on ladder (enough to get reqs), I have formed a solid opinion on both suspects. Pay attention that I've probably played so much LoL to the point where I think that anything which requires skill to pull off is healthy for a competitive game, so my mindset is most likely flawed compared to the standard.
Zoroark is the reason for my wording above. While it is really easy to slap Zoroark onto a team and use it for decent results, it actually takes skill to bring the best out of it. It requires close analysis of both teams, to see what it can be disguised as, detecting possible threats you'd like to lure in AND the most important part: A lot of Pokemon Zoroark benefits disguising as don't take as much Stealth Rock damage as it does, which in my opinion, plays a huge role in playing against it.
However, Zoroark per say is a really good offensive threat, with good stats, a "decent" Speed tier (missing on Cobalion and Virizion is actually pretty huge, since both of them are really reliable checks to it) and versatility, the later being what pushes it over the top for some people, and since I only have experience playing SD Zoro, I'm definitively not the best person to talk about that point. With that said, Zoroark definitively has some good checks, such as the previously mentioned Cobalion and Virizion, Aromatisse, Togetic (which can counter the other suspect as a plus) and Hitmonlee. It is also frail and has his Illusion broken when attacked, which make it hard to bring on without being as a Revenge Killer. Either that or you can reveal your Psychic-type immunity, but I don't really think that is a good idea at all.
To end my opinion on Zoroark, I'm leaning towards voting to keep it in the tier, but I'm open to the opinions of those who think otherwise.
Yanmega is broken and I don't really feel like mentioning what has been said over and over, although part of me also thinks people are overrating it way too hard. It takes 50% damage from Stealth Rock and most methods of removing them off are easy to wear down. Its set's effectiveness is also reliant on the team archetype matchup, and since the suspect ladder is filled with the same team or different variants of it, it's not really hard to see why people want it gone so bad.
EDIT: Fletchinder is a bro, and I want to give it credits for pulling me through a huge majority of my battles
Zoroark is the reason for my wording above. While it is really easy to slap Zoroark onto a team and use it for decent results, it actually takes skill to bring the best out of it. It requires close analysis of both teams, to see what it can be disguised as, detecting possible threats you'd like to lure in AND the most important part: A lot of Pokemon Zoroark benefits disguising as don't take as much Stealth Rock damage as it does, which in my opinion, plays a huge role in playing against it.
However, Zoroark per say is a really good offensive threat, with good stats, a "decent" Speed tier (missing on Cobalion and Virizion is actually pretty huge, since both of them are really reliable checks to it) and versatility, the later being what pushes it over the top for some people, and since I only have experience playing SD Zoro, I'm definitively not the best person to talk about that point. With that said, Zoroark definitively has some good checks, such as the previously mentioned Cobalion and Virizion, Aromatisse, Togetic (which can counter the other suspect as a plus) and Hitmonlee. It is also frail and has his Illusion broken when attacked, which make it hard to bring on without being as a Revenge Killer. Either that or you can reveal your Psychic-type immunity, but I don't really think that is a good idea at all.
To end my opinion on Zoroark, I'm leaning towards voting to keep it in the tier, but I'm open to the opinions of those who think otherwise.
Yanmega is broken and I don't really feel like mentioning what has been said over and over, although part of me also thinks people are overrating it way too hard. It takes 50% damage from Stealth Rock and most methods of removing them off are easy to wear down. Its set's effectiveness is also reliant on the team archetype matchup, and since the suspect ladder is filled with the same team or different variants of it, it's not really hard to see why people want it gone so bad.
EDIT: Fletchinder is a bro, and I want to give it credits for pulling me through a huge majority of my battles
I've seen some posts saying that Tinted Lens Yanmega is better/worse that Speed Boost Yanmegas etc. I think that Speed Boost Yanmega and Tinted Lens Yanmega don't differ too much in terms of viability, or even which one is better/worse. Tinted Lens Yanmega is a BEAST, that kills Mons like crazy, while Speed Boost Yanmega counter Tinted Lens Yanmega :o. It also counters Mons such as Sharpedo (with speed boost), and quicker Mons in general. Speed Boost is also good for scouting out Scarf sets (with Protect and speed). And I'd like to emphasize again the Druddigon Zoroark is OP.
Yeah yeah I'll make a 200 Post Shoutout cuz i forgot to make a 100 post :].
Yeah yeah I'll make a 200 Post Shoutout cuz i forgot to make a 100 post :].
EnerG218 : Massive noob imo, but gotta give shoutout because she brought me to Smogon. Without her, I would still be playing CF like crazy (wait didn't I like that?)
Nog : Imo good friend. Plays basketball. :]
Passion (rip): Too bad she can't see this but she was good fren ;~; she got too many infractions and went byebye
Molk : Good friend, watches my RU battles almost 100% of the time. (stalker imo)
Imanalt , Don Honchkrorleone , Laga : tegaf a ru
jk (not really)
Don, your accent is fucking crazy awesome, and you make good teams (Archeops damn)
Laga, fucking got skipped in Round 86 :/, you better fucking tutor me in next round for doubles :P (if i get someone else...)
Imanalt, tegaf a ru :], you forgot the daily reminder thing today :]
This deserves a song imo
Stay with me :)
Don't leave me frens :)
Thats it :] Thanks everybody for being awesome!
Nog : Imo good friend. Plays basketball. :]
Passion (rip): Too bad she can't see this but she was good fren ;~; she got too many infractions and went byebye
Molk : Good friend, watches my RU battles almost 100% of the time. (stalker imo)
Imanalt , Don Honchkrorleone , Laga : tegaf a ru
jk (not really)
Don, your accent is fucking crazy awesome, and you make good teams (Archeops damn)
Laga, fucking got skipped in Round 86 :/, you better fucking tutor me in next round for doubles :P (if i get someone else...)
Imanalt, tegaf a ru :], you forgot the daily reminder thing today :]
This deserves a song imo
Stay with me :)
Don't leave me frens :)
Thats it :] Thanks everybody for being awesome!
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As much as I want to agree with this, I believe the roles of Tinted Lens Yanmega and Speed Boost Yanmega are completely different. This situation is almost like Specs Keldeo vs Greninja, hard for you to decide especially if you dont have that well of a knowledge on the meta. Tinted Lens Yanmega is for smashing stall teams and running through teams without a problem with its godly stallbreaking prowess. This is more like Keldeo, being able to just break any defensive team without a problem. Speed Boost would remind me more of Greninja, as the role it has is to counter offense since being able to outspeed mons much faster than it is is just so useful. While I agree with a lot of the points, I just wanted to point that out
I never said anything about roles being different or anything like that. I wanted to point out that many people believe that one set is better or worse than the other which I am strongly against. Both sets have its roles, its pros, and its cons. Maybe you misunderstood me.
Zoroark has the ability to run multiple effective sets. For example: sd, np, specs and mixed, which makes it the most diverse pokemon in ru.
It's also really difficult to fit something on offense/bulky offense that can switch into zoroark. You're pretty much limited to gurdurr and virizion. Its illusion ability is crazy ridiculous when it is offense vs offense because you are put in situations where you are basically guessing and one wrong predict with offense can often decide the game. Nothing is able to take knock off/gk/hpice/flamethrower. It's a ridiculous over-centralizing mon in ru and i feel deserves to be banned.
It's also really difficult to fit something on offense/bulky offense that can switch into zoroark. You're pretty much limited to gurdurr and virizion. Its illusion ability is crazy ridiculous when it is offense vs offense because you are put in situations where you are basically guessing and one wrong predict with offense can often decide the game. Nothing is able to take knock off/gk/hpice/flamethrower. It's a ridiculous over-centralizing mon in ru and i feel deserves to be banned.
I haven't quite made reqs yet but I'd like to offer my opinion on both of these mons.
Honestly I don't think either of these pokemon warrant a ban so far. They both are very strong offensive threats but the meta game has adapted to them quite well without forcing people to run stupid shit like batonpass did in ou and without being over centralizing. They can both sweep weakened teams and punch holes for their team mates but they sure aren't unstoppable as both have serious trouble with scarfers (not including speed boost yan who isn't broken in the slightest) bulky mons and priority. Aromatisse registeel and a ton of other mons already mentioned are great answers to any yanmega and aromatisse blocks zoroark pretty hard too. and honestly I don't know why people just completely disregard rocks because if you keep some sort of pressure and some way to punish gligar in particular (like a cm user with hp ice) its not hard to stop hazard removal or at least make it very detrimental to the opponent. While I definitely would like a little more experience facing opposing zoroark, if i had to vote right now I would say Do Not Ban for both of these suspects.
Honestly I don't think either of these pokemon warrant a ban so far. They both are very strong offensive threats but the meta game has adapted to them quite well without forcing people to run stupid shit like batonpass did in ou and without being over centralizing. They can both sweep weakened teams and punch holes for their team mates but they sure aren't unstoppable as both have serious trouble with scarfers (not including speed boost yan who isn't broken in the slightest) bulky mons and priority. Aromatisse registeel and a ton of other mons already mentioned are great answers to any yanmega and aromatisse blocks zoroark pretty hard too. and honestly I don't know why people just completely disregard rocks because if you keep some sort of pressure and some way to punish gligar in particular (like a cm user with hp ice) its not hard to stop hazard removal or at least make it very detrimental to the opponent. While I definitely would like a little more experience facing opposing zoroark, if i had to vote right now I would say Do Not Ban for both of these suspects.
Okay I guess im going to respond to this since it's one of the better anti ban Zoroark posts so far and I want to attempt to change your opinion. Unfortunately the RU ladder is a pretty poor representation of the tier and you're not likely to find a huge majority of players that actually know what they're doing. I think I can speak for most people when I say that Zoroark really started gaining attention and support for a ban when RUgged Mountain started, this when when it became quite clear that when both players had the required skill to abuse Zoroark that it was extremely easy to lure out specific Pokemon and put the opponent in extremely difficult situations. The problem that Zoroark poses is vs offense, I will accept that when running a more defensive oriented team that Zoroark is significantly less of an issue with multiple defensive checks, defensive teams also have plenty of options in terms of a mid-ground switch to scout for what Pokemon it is, sadly offense simply doesn't have the luxury of doing that and one wrong guess can often lose you the game, even if you do predict it correctly Zoroark almost always clicked Knock Off and your reward for that correct prediction is your Zoroark check just lost it's item anyway. I just can't support something staying in a tier when it unnecessarily promotes guessing, I do realise that at some stage when running offense you will be forced into some sort of "guess" but thats more of an educated guess and you can usually use simple risk vs reward in most of those sitautions and that just isn't possible when it comes to Zoroark.
I also want to talk about how limited you are when building and trying to prepare for Zoroark, you're pretty much limited to three Pokemon with those three being Virizion, Cobalion and Gurdurr (Hitmonlee can never switch into physical Zoroark and takes upwards of 60% from Sucker). Now both Cobalion and Virizon's best sets are by far the SD variants and I know for a fact that Doublade is one of the top two team mates for Zoroark and easily comes in on both, infact Doubalde can come in on almost all of Zoroark's checks and counters such as Aromatisse which it can more often than not force out before it heals itself due to the threat of a SD. This is just extremely limiting and got stale really quickly for me anyway
So basically all these points I made + the post I made on page one summarise why I think Zoroark is broken. This suspect test is kinda important (most important one yet imo) with the RU open coming up this is one of the only times of the year when RU gets serious attention in tournament play (along with SPL) and I would really like to have the most enjoyable and balanced tier as possible with both of these suspects leaving.
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Assault Vest Slowking can come in (even on rocks), take one hit, OHKO with Fire Blast or Ice Beam, and switch back out & regenerate. This is kind of an emergency action but it worked plenty of times for me.
I do understand your point, and Zoroark is probably the best way to lure and kill specific threats, to the point where it outclasses all other styles of offense (such as using Dugtrio to trap or holepunching using high damage Pokemon in general). It is also true that I'm not as attached to the RU community as I'd like to be, which is pretty normal due to my long abscense, and that laddering is not the best way to see a tier's state. I'll give a try to other Zoroark sets and see how it goes I guess, but you do have some very solid points in your reply.
After two days of laddering I finally got my reqs and I have mixed feelings about what I saw in the ladder. I saw 3 main kinds of players:
- The copy-paste HO team of New Breed consisting of Accelgor or Omastar, Doublade, Hitmonlee, Specs Meloetta or Yanmega and CB Dugtiro and while I rarely have problems with it, I feel that this defeats the purpose of a suspect test in which you look for new viable counters for the suspected pokemon(s). I agree that getting the reqs is important but if you are using the same team that everyone else does, I doubt you'll have a clear vision of the effects of this two pokes especially if you are new to the tier.
- People that had no idea of what they are doing examples include using Ambipom, Magician Delphox and Claydol among others.
- People that knew what they are doing but use more creative yet viable pokes like Sandslash and Gurdurr imo the best kind of player because they fully understand the metagame and are the most prepared people to take a decision regarding Zoro and Yanmega bans.
Hello frends. I am back again to introduce you to an amazing Pokemon who's true prowess has only truly come to light during this suspect test. It is a product of my legendary RU pride teams, picked by user Magnemite, and has proven to be a solid Pokemon on my team. All jokes aside, while it obviously isn't amazing, it does have a unique niche in my eyes. So, it is time to grace the community with the presence of the legendary BIBAREL!
Bibarel @ Leftovers
Ability: Simple
Adamant Nature
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
-Curse
-Quick Attack
-Waterfall
-Return / Stealth Rock
Bibarel is very interesting since it can actually set up on one of the most prevalent threats in the tier: Doublade. While you may face ladder scrubs running Sacred Sword on Doublade, Iron Head is the superior move in almost every instance. This allows Bibarel to have more set-up opportunities against opposing teams. Curse boosts Bibarel's Attack and Defense 2 stages, which can make it much more of a threat than it originally appears to be. Its access to STAB Waterfall allows it to demolish one of the best physical walls in the tier in Gligar, another solid attribute. It can even be your Stealth Rock setter if you don't have one! The beaver obviously isn't an S-rank threat, but it can be a unique addition to teams. So, give a dam (see what i did there?) and try out our resident beaver :]
And for those of you who fail to appreciate this magnificent creature, here is a replay showing its dominance against the player who is currently #9 on the RU suspect ladder: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-148872230
Bibarel @ Leftovers
Ability: Simple
Adamant Nature
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
-Curse
-Quick Attack
-Waterfall
-Return / Stealth Rock
Bibarel is very interesting since it can actually set up on one of the most prevalent threats in the tier: Doublade. While you may face ladder scrubs running Sacred Sword on Doublade, Iron Head is the superior move in almost every instance. This allows Bibarel to have more set-up opportunities against opposing teams. Curse boosts Bibarel's Attack and Defense 2 stages, which can make it much more of a threat than it originally appears to be. Its access to STAB Waterfall allows it to demolish one of the best physical walls in the tier in Gligar, another solid attribute. It can even be your Stealth Rock setter if you don't have one! The beaver obviously isn't an S-rank threat, but it can be a unique addition to teams. So, give a dam (see what i did there?) and try out our resident beaver :]
And for those of you who fail to appreciate this magnificent creature, here is a replay showing its dominance against the player who is currently #9 on the RU suspect ladder: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-148872230
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The 5% may have been an exaggeration, but considering a Pokemon only needs 3.41% usage in OU to be OU by usage, it's still a possibility that we could lose Amoonguss (assuming they use 1695 stats for OU tiering that is)
you'll need a screenshot for the reqs to be sufficient, a thread made specifically to ID your alts will be made in a few days :) (about halfway into the suspect test)
Here's a fat post with an assortment of information, responses, and opinions:
- Public Opinion for now (as gleaned from the posts in this thread) is approximately as follows:
Zoroark: 50% Ban, 25% No Ban, 25% Undecided
Yanmega: 80% Ban, 10% No Ban, 10% Undecided
Obviously not everyone who gave their opinion is going to get reqs and these numbers are far from exact, but we can pretty safely assume that Yanmega is going to be banned. Zoroark is questionable.
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Magnet Rise Registeel might be another creative Registeel set worth using to combat the infamous Yanmega + Dugtrio core. Of course, which Registeel set to use is personal preference, really. The Magnet Rise set can run Lefties, plus it is less situational; besides Dugtrio, Magnet Rise can potentially help Registeel against other Pokemon with Ground-type attacks, such as Gastrodon, Druddigon, and RHYPERIOR (which registeel can outspeed). That said, Magnet Rise costs an Registeel can get caught off-guard by a smart Dugtrio double-switch, whereas Shed Shell gives no fucks. And of course, the standard Registeel set has advantages as well. So basically Shed Shell --> Magnet Rise --> Standard in order of most to least situational. Granted, I haven't used Registeel, so this is all theorymonning prompted by Cherub Agent's post
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More "Flaws" with Suspect Laddering that I have personally noticed:
Some good players only ladder during suspects. I, too, have once been guilty of this in other tiers, but I digress. This brings up a couple of issues by corollary.
First, this may be detrimental to the regular ladder, decreasing the average skill level of the ladder: the "quality", if you will
Second, are those players really qualified to vote? If they rarely play the tier outside of suspect tests, this means they are going to be less familiar with the tier, however skilled they may be. Moreover, the suspect ladder is an INHERENTLY DIFFERENT META than the regular one, if only slightly. This is because people tend to: Use the Pokémon/thing being suspected, or use stuff to stop the Pokemon/thing suspected in anticipation of the former. This was especially prevalent in the Shuckle test: I saw countless Web teams, and more Stall/TR teams, etc. So if people only play during suspects, their perspective of the tier's metagame will be different, and possibly vote differently as a result.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should get rid of the whole system of Suspect Testing. In fact, I don't have a concrete solution either. But if you are one of the people I described -- people who get reqs for the sake of getting reqs or TC, and don't play the tier much otherwise -- please play more outside of suspects to improve the ladder and have an accurate understanding of the non-suspect metagame. And to follow up on the flaws hilarious brought up, don't whore out teams, people.
- My Zoroark Opinion is pretty much on the fence right now, leaning slightly towards No Ban for the following reasons.
As Pearl. mentioned, Illusion requires skill to use effectively, otherwise those "50/50s" become 100/0s after it uses one move. Granted, I often use Zoroark with absolutely no regard to Illusion, because its speed, power, movepool, and unpredictability make it great regardless of ability. But the majority opinion seems to be that Illusion is what tips the scale. But I don't know if I agree. What I've noticed is that Zoroark epitomizes the clash of two "values" of an ideal metagame. What do I mean? Skim the intro of this post by DougJustDoug for reference. Basically, 2 commonly accepted/logically valid characteristics of any given Pokemon metagame are Skill ("The metagame should require knowledge and practice to become an expert player and to achieve consistent success at the highest levels of play") and Balance/Variety ("All viable playing options and strategies should be as competitively balanced as possible, in relation to each other," "The metagame should have the widest possible variety of playing options and strategies that are viable and competitive for knowledgeable players"). Simply by being good and having high usage, Zoroark is detrimental to the metagame's Balance/Variety, but its ability Illusion promotes Skill. Many of you have brought up similar arguments, but I thought I'd put it in these more concrete terms. Personally, I tend to value Skill more than Variety/Balance, but the Zoroark suspect is really a judgment call: which characteristic to you value more, and does one outweigh another in Zoroark's case? So yeah, I am leaning towards No Ban, but liable to change or abstain. On a related note, I developed a way to empirically quantify the "Balance" of a metagame, which I've written about here. Check it out if you're interested.
- My Yanmega Opinion is similar to the majority, so Ban. It has few checks/counters, decimates offense, etc. etc. At first I thought Zoroark was more ban-worthy than Yanmega, but I think it's just that my teams tend to fare better against Yanmega -- Aromatisse is a good check for both in fact. But having seen and used it a bit more myself now, I can conclude that Yanmega should be banned. While everyone seems to be using Echoed Voice ("Zoroark 50/50 herpaderp") with regards to Zoroark's suspect, Yanmega kind of has a "50/50" of its own, though it's not as noticeable or effective as Zoroark's. On the first turn that Yanmega is sent out, you don't know what its ability is. So usually you operate under the assumption that it is the more common speed boost set. So you might send in your specially defensive Aromatisse, knowing that LO Air Slash does around 30% or so. But then this happens:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 174-204 (42.8 - 50.2%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
If that Aromatisse had a little prior damage, even Protect wouldn't save it. Basically, Yanmega's two sets are sufficiently effective and different to create a "50/50" of sorts. Yes, it only lasts for one turn, but that one turn of uncertainty could result in a bad guess and cost you a Pokémon or even more. So yeah, that's my opinion on Yanmega. Not that it matters much, considering it's definitely getting banned by a large margin.
- On a related note, an interesting Yanmega core I've discovered is Speed Boost Yanmega + this Togetic:
Togetic @ Eviolite
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Defog
- Nasty Plot
- Baton Pass
- Roost
Despite the fact that they share weaknesses, Togetic Defogs for Yanmega and passes Nasty Plots to it. At +2 SpA and a few Speed Boosts, Yanmega is borderline unstoppable. Min speed Togetic makes it slow enough to get Yanmega in unharmed most of the time.
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How is Illusion even remotely skill-based? I don't even understand how people arrive at this conclusion, what a farce. Let's take a very common and realistic scenario and put this so-called "skill" rhetoric to the test. Let's say you have a Zoroark and Delphox and the opposing team (a stall team for instance) has a Slowking, where Slowking is their main means of dealing with it. You lead with Zoroark disguised as Delphox and the opponent has one of two things out turn 1 A) the slowking or B) something Delphox can force out. If a, there's no reason for them to switch out unless they guess the Zoroark. If situation B, they're put in a very tough position where they again have to guess whether or not it's Zoroark. If they guess right, they fall under no immediate penalty, if they guess wrong, then Delphox steamrolls their team. Can someone please enlighten me on how something like this could possibly be affiliated with skill and how doing something such as this is in any way deemed onerous? As newbreed said before, dealing with Zoroark is a guessing game, and such a thing is the literal antithesis of "desirable" in a competitive environment.
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I meant that Illusion takes skill to play with, not against. I completely agree that playing against it invokes luck, which is a negative characteristic mentioned in Doug's post that I forgot. So yeah, you're basically choosing between the Skill it takes to play with Zoroark and the Luck it takes to play against Zoroark. Whether one is more important or outweighs the other is subjective.
However, it does sometimes require skill to play against Zoroark. For example, whenever the opponent has Zoroark, I lead with scarf Moltres and U-turn, just in case they led with Zoroark. As another example, if the opponent sends in what appears to be Delphox against my Slowking, I'm not going to stay in and Scald, knowing that it's probably Zoroark. These are some relatively straightforward examples, but you get the point.
Also, in the example you gave, you would be able to tell whether it's Zoroark or Moltres based on whether or not it says "The opponent's Moltres is exerting pressure!" But yeah, I see what you mean.
EDIT: I don't want to make this a 2 person conversation, so I'll make an addendum here rather than a new post in response to the below post.
I'm not exaggerating the amount of skill needed to use Zoroark effectively. But when you take into consideration the fact that Pokemon as a game doesn't take all too much skill, Illusion is noteworthy. We're not playing chess; in your average game of Pokemon the most you'll do is pull a couple smart double switches or predictions. What Spirit describes below is as follows: bringing in Zoroark safely and without revealing itself, against a Pokemon it might normally lose to for the sake of baiting out the opponent's counter for the Illusion, knowing that Zoroark beats that counter. By comparison, yes, using Illusion effectively does require skill. On the contrary, I think people who want to ban Zoroark are exaggerating how much luck it takes to play against. In fact, at high levels of play, both players will often know exactly what each other's options are, and how each of their own possibilities will play out against their opponent's. So it becomes a guessing game. "Luck". An example I've faced countless times in LC, from both ends: Misdreavus against Pawniard, Misdreavus can kill with Dazzling Gleam/HP Fighting, Pawniard can kill with Sucker Punch. Does Pawniard Sucker Punch predicting the attack? Or Knock Off predicting Sub/WoW? Does Misdreavus Sub, predicting the Sucker Punch? Or attack, predicting the Knock Off? If you know your opponent isn't very good, you go for the less obvious option. But if both players are experienced, all the options are equally obvious, and it becomes a 50/50. With greater skill comes greater luck.
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I don't think there's much skill involved in using Zoroark. The anti-ban side, at least the way it appears to me, as making some absurd exaggerations as to how hard it is to use Zoroark. How difficult is it to identify the Pokemon Zoroark can lure out and kill? Another example is the opposing team having a Doublade as their check to Virizion. Zoroark disguises as Virizion, lures in Doublade, and smashes it to pieces. The opposing team lost their Virizion counter and is in for one hell of a ride. I still don't get it. What part of this is difficult or can even be hyperbolized to the point where the word skill is invoked to describe such scenarios? Zoroark is a nightmare to play against and you even admitted that, so why do you insist that it might even be close to balanced just because it suggests the use of some kind of "skill" on the user's part? I can't speak for anyone else, but I for one would be really disappointed if a Pokemon like this stayed, especially under this half-baked reasoning.
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