Metagame NP: Stage 5 - Red Ruby Da Sleeze (DLC1 Movepool Updates)

[Corthius]

It's a bit of a bummer that Toxtricity already got the boot, but I trust on their word to revisit it later. The unbans all seem quite fine for now, I am mainly worried about Zoroark.

It is no stranger to the tier and has show its dominance before. One set alone doesn't feel broken enough to justify my worry, but its variety in sets makes it very hard to consistently answer with one or two pokemon and with 105 base speed it is not as easy to revengekill either. Additionally, with the recent influx of, mostly Fighting types tbh, great breaker that have insane synergy when paired in combination with Illusion, Zoroark feasts on our lack of proper understanding of how to build a solid balance or defensive team, and can open up its teammates like nothing else can.
I'm not 100% convinced that the issue is Zoroark just yet, because the tier is very hostile and some things still need to be removed in my eyes, before I'd focus on Zoroark. Still such a bitch to play against (it's not skill issue).

---------------------------------------------------------------​

- for now lets enjoy our new friend, or shall I say amigo?

Mejores Amigos

desc

Both Zoroark and Flamigo are absolutely insane right now, and they complement each other fantastically. There is nothing in the tier that can take on both, so you can create deadly mindgames and 50/50s in your favour. The rest is just complementary filler, Jolteon compresses speed, another pivot for our core, a Volt/Electric immunity, and a potential wincondition with Calm Mind. Tera Ice for the classic BoltBeam coverage, you can replace it with Shadow Ball + tera Ghost too. To be frank, there are a bunch of things that could be changed (Choice Item choice on Zoroark), while still maintaining the integrity of the team. Uxie adds a defensive pivot, with FS additionally pressuring switchins for the other pokemon, while also compressive the role of a Stealth Rock setter; FS can be replaced with reliable Psychic STAB too. It is also the main/only pre-tera Flamigo switchin on this team. Encore is broken in this generation and tera Electric + Levitate is very solid defensively, lets you resist Brave Bird in a pinch. Scyther is added for Defog support and speed control. It also acts as a pivot for Zoroark and Is another Fighting resist. Appletun is a fire resist, while being the general special wall for the team, holding off against strong special attacker. Eject Pack for added pivoting action; it's all about the vortex really.
The team is insanely weak to Flying, so opposing Scyther, BB Flamigo etc are insanely dangerous and sorta require an early tera from Uxie/Appletun.

 

[skierdude101]

Thoughts on additions that I've been using:

Hurray, a Steel-type! I've been trying out AV which has felt decent, but nowhere near as good as last gen since it lost some of it's amazing coverage. Unfortunately, it doesnt take hits as well as you'd want and gets worn-down really quick. Lefties with Protect seems like something worth trying because of the Choice Fighting-types.

I love this guy, the set versatility and typing feels awesome right now. Grass+ghost feels really difficult to switch into and the physical/special ambiguity can net you a big hit as the opponent try's to midground. Super reliable defogger at the moment, matches up well into lead volt switch mons. This feels like a mainstay and will likely settle into a strong position in the tier.

I've been using a Nasty Plot Tera Blast Ground set with this and it just rips through unprepared teams. If this thing was Base105 or higher oh my lord would it be so broken. Thankfully, it's slightly slower speed means it has a much larger pool of mons that can revenge it. This mon feels really really good.

I think this thing faces too much competition from Rotom-mow and Jolteon. The speed is obviously what sets it apart, but I don't find that to be particularly important at the moment since both Rotom-mow and Flamigo are both faster with scarf. Maybe in a meta where it outspeeds more scarfers it would be worth it.

Flamigo is a friend. I definitely see this as the most bannable mon in the tier right now, however, I have found it to be manageable. Rocky Helmet feels like a must but feels quite effective at bringing Flamigo to a health where it can be easily revenged or die to recoil. I can see a setup set being cool and perhaps choice sets running roost as a last move to offset all the chip.

I've tried using specs a few times and i think the meta is still too offensive for it. I get one kill and then it ends up feeling like fodder. As the meta gets bulkier I expect this to get better. The severe lack of Fairy and Steel types makes me feel like this will likely be too difficult to switch into in the long run, but I haven't had it feel like the best mon on either side of the field just quite yet.

I have used a Bulky AV set and that just feels like reliable glue. I have faced many of the Belly Drum sets and haven't been goobed really. It doesnt feel like something where simply positioning yourself 1 turn for a safe Belly Drum nets you the game. There's a lot of pokemon that are faster and resist Bullet Punch. Guts sets are something that I'm really interested in right now because Knock-Off lets it make progress for itself.

He is a good boy. I think highly of this right now since it feels like the most reliable check to fighting spam. I put the helmet on him to make sure I get some progress. As people adapt to it it will probably get worse cuz of its passivity.

Its doing the same thing it was doing before. Volt Absorb feels even better now that there's more volt switch in the tier and Sandaconda still being the only ground means not much changed.

This thing is way better than I thought it would be. Really strong and has some interesting and versatile set variety.

This thing feels like it's where it should be power-level wise. It isn't impossible to kill but can end up walling a team if the opponent sacks there damage makers. Being weak to hazards and knock off makes this thing manageable and allows me to actually appreciate it instead of just hating it

Gonna end up being the most-common scarfer and is very good. Levitate is fantastic for getting in safely and volt+leaf storm means somethings dying or getting pivoted on.

This things speed-tier is awesome right now. I think Plot sets with have a lot of freedom with the last slot all of which can really help lazzle beat its would be check, and then be hard to revenge.

Kinda feel like this has been overshadowed by other fighting and fire types, but I think holds a unique position as a Physical firetype. I used a scarf one on a shitty offense build that got a lot of surprise kills. I really dont think Setup is the way to go with this guy though.

Eruption go brrr. fun mon, i like

I think this thing without illusion would be a really threatening pokemon currently. When you add illusion into the mix it just becomes broken and too oppressive. The mind-games are unhealthy and its very hard to midground.

Thoughts on Additions I haven't used

Thoughts on additions that I haven't used:

This thing is super hard to kill but kinda gets blanked by other grass types like Decidueye. Faces a lot of competition from the other grass-types but should stick around for a while.

Haven't had a chance to use this yet, but I think it will be a potent setup sweeper and FS pivot. Seems like it will pair nicely with all the fighting-types with FutureSight+Uturn.

Haven't used this myself yet, but seems like a decent util mon with nice defensive tera cabilities. I see this thing finding it's niche as a fire-type check.

Power-level increase of the tier might make it so this thing can't just setup and be unkillable, but maybe that's not true and it'll just start running away with games again because of Para.

Someone can try using this on TR maybe? Otherwise, I think with Tera it has the potential to 2for1 trade, but it feels too volatile to be reliable at that.

As a screens setter, I dont think its really that much better than our other options. Screens HO is going to be good regardless of the setter imo. As an individual mon, I think we've seen how Bulky Setup mons have become a real problem for NU this gen because of Tera and like Dudunsparce, I can't really decide yet whether the increase in power level offsets this enough.

I have not used this and haven't really run into it much. Probably ends up being broke once the meta slows down.

I think this is just outclassed by Meloetta and Indeedee, but maybe it has some stuff going for it like Knock. Idk

Havent seen one yet.

:Mismagmius: Haven't seen one yet.

Seems okay, the low spdef makes it feel exploitable, but it does come in for free on a few things and get hazards going.

The lead set is cool. BU sets seem just barely not bulky enough, especially with how offensive things are right now.

Completely overshadowed by every other fighting type addition.

Seems really good for spin and being able to Pivot and stay healthy.

I think util sets probably wont work. I remember trying that in SS and it just dies too quickly. CM Kiss like mesprit seems really scary but the power drop off is significant so might not be able to actually snowball.

 

[PowerOfMemes]

After the recent changes, the metagame has shown a few Pokemon that are top tier and near broken. here are the ones I’ve noticed.

The Broken/Near Broken

The bird on everyone’s mind. This thing is really dumb. Scarf sets revenge kill literally everything, and fit on nearly every team style while Band destroys everything, including its supposed check in Driflbim. Also, due to it only needing three moves, it’s last slot is free for Throat Chop for Hoopa or finishing off Ghost-types, Roost to take advantage of switches and consistently fire off Brave Bird, or Facade just in case it gets Will-O-Wisp burned. This all, of course, ignoring the setup sets where it can abuse both Swords Dance and Agility to finish teams off—I’ve even seen Endure Salac Berry + Reversal do good.

This fox is pretty dumb too. Nasty Plot + its STABS + Focus Blast beats everything in the tier—the only checks are faster Pokemon like Zoroark, Jolteon, and Scarf revenge killers. Actually, Houndoom is a solid counter, but you risk switching in on a Focus Blast—and, if you Tera Ghost and the Delphox is alive, you now don’t counter it anymore. Encore + Nasty Plot is also decent at abusing fatter Pokemon who love them recovery like Blissey, Naclstack, and Umbreon. The only issue with having Encore is that you now lose some Tera strategies and Houndoom. Nasty Plot with Overheat + Eject Pack is an idea I’ve seen, and, ignoring Stealth Rock, it works well as a pivot and nukes well with Overheat. Also, Specs hits like crazy, and Scarf is decent.

This dude takes advantage of the all the bulky Pokemon needed to handle the Fighting-types like Drifblim, Houndstone, and random Uxie. Choice Specs sets hit like a dump truck, Choice Scarf is interesting but fails due to being slower than Jolteon, and Assault Vest sets act as a both great defensive and offensive piece for teams eating hits and dishing them out with Knock Off alongside them. But, the real dangerous sets are the Substitute ones: Sub + 3 Attacks uses switches and walls like Blissey to its advantage to than attack without worry. I’ve also played around with Sub + Nasty Plot, and, let me say, it is not bad and actually a bit dumb due to the free switches you get and free turn from Sub.

Honorable Mentions

Illusion + Specs/Black Glasses Pivot is still as dumb as it was before but the Fighting-types have it in check for now.

Sub + Bulk Up still works and is quite annoying. Boots Pivot is amazing abusing Parting Shot on every fast threat that enters and just breaking through with sheer force. Band feels like a worse Boots Pivot because the added power is unnecessary compared to pivoting and switching up moves.

Annoying. We still have no check for this—only faster/Scarf revenge killers.

Amigo and Phox Calcs

The supposed Migo check:
252 Atk Choice Band Flamigo Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 310-366 (61.5 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed
2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Flamigo Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Sandaconda: 175-207 (50.2 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Delphox Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 319-376 (83 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Delphox Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Appletun: 288-339 (68 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Stories]

Making my comments on what I think needs to happen to the tier to make it as good as it can possibly be:

This needed to be quickbanned with the others. Absolutely zero counterplay and 1/2/3HKO's the entire metagame while able to U-turn on anything that can tank one hit in a pinch. Not much to say about this, everyone knows it's broken and had to go, expect it gone by this weekend, just a shame it couldn't have been done sooner.

Zoroark has plenty of hard hitters to disguise as now, making unsuspecting Knock Off or Choice Specs Dark Pulse even more devastating. I'm not convinced that Zoroark is healthy for the tier. I've used a lot of Swords Dance Zoroark and the speed tier and Knock Off is too much for the tier to deal with imo.

The Belly Drum set is really degenerate, I don't think this Pokemon is healthy and just feels like a more consistent Cetitan.

I'm unsure if this is broken or not. The sheer amount of stats and set diversity behind Meloetta is very scary but it has an admittedly awful typing so idk. I lost an otherwise won game because Relic Song put something to sleep, that's pretty lame but more of a sleep move moment. Specs is really fun, Assault Vest with Wish support is really consistent. Certainly a top Pokemon but doesn't feel insanely broken compared to the likes of Flamigo or Zoroark.

I haven't used Delphox or Hoopa. Hoopa feels like Meloetta, Delphox doesn't feel broken currently but after a few bans I could see it.

 

[Finchinator]

Realistically with Meloetta, Delphox, and Hoopa all being hot topics, it’s interesting as they all take up a certain segment of the pie chart as you seldom see them overlap on the same team.

I feel like the best approach would be to remove Flamigo, which pretty clearly has insufficient counterplay, and Zoroark, which is only kept in check by up-tempo teams rather than sound defensive counterplay at this point when you factor in specs and SD + Illusion, and then let the Psychic types settle for a few days to see which emerges, if any, as the most problematic.

For example, my guess right now Meloetta is more “really good” than broken, but it’s really just a guess as we have so many overlapping variables in this metagame still in its infancy. This could easily turn once things begin to resemble a more balanced format and certain things stand out when preparing teams and executing game plans.

I think this type of fresh metagame with so many artificial introductions is awkward, so I don’t think there is a perfect path of progression for the council no matter how you cut it, and you kind of have to pick a lane to prioritize here and there. With this in mind, I do feel we can find a consensus as to which options — between some other posts and discoveries thus far — are too much from this point and work from there onward.

 

[Ac1D_13]

Unfortunately everything I wanted to say has already been said above, but I'll give my thoughts on the problematic mons for me anyway:


There is really not much that can consistently switch in to CB Flamigo STABs. The best mons that are "checks" to this thing are Drifblim and Houndstone, which are both VERY passive and can be pivoted on in to another teammate that beats them. This definitely has no place in this tier and I expect that it will be banned pretty soon.


With all the pivoting mons in this tier, Hariyama gets very easy BDs off and at the very least can wipe out half a team. AV is a really nice sponge but it does not balance out the Belly Drum variant at all. Should be banned.


I think this mon is very broken. It has many viable sets paired with great stats. I think Choice Specs and the bulky Calm Mind sets are incredibly difficult to deal with due to it's natural bulk and power being very high and access to Psyshock to smash through special walls like Blissey and Focus Blast for Steels. Much like Hariyama, I feel the AV set is nice to have but doesn't really balance out the other variants.

The three mons above I believe should all be banned but I also want to touch on some mons that I feel may be good with these bans and could also be problematic down the line:


The other fighters are taking a bit of the spotlight so Heracross is going a bit under the radar, but the Choice Scarf Moxie, Guts Trailblaze and even just SD sets are really strong. Once a few bans happen, I feel like this might go out of control but time will tell.


Very potent setup sweeper at the moment with NP and great coverage in Focus Blast. Being a point slower than the the likes of Zoroark and Mismagius does suck a lot but it can use Substitute on switches to ease how much it is threatened. Could be troublesome after a few bans.


These two are both pretty versatile in terms of what they can do, having many viable sets between them. Between Specs, Sub + 3 Attacks and Mixed, Hoopa could definitely be broken when the meta slows down a little bit. Zoroark has strong synergy with a lot of fighting types that it can now disguise itself as which adds on to threats that those mons pose. It is also incredibly versatile between sets such as SD, NP and Specs.


Perhaps a bit more out there but I feel like the banning of the three aforementioned mons can unlock Mismagius. NP sets whether it be 3 attacks or Sub and Draining Kiss seem like they could be amazing down the line especially considering Mismagius' speed. Even Choice sets with Trick to cripple walls may seem like they could be good in the future.

These thoughts may end up being wrong but it'll be interesting to see how the meta will progress regardless. Great to see the amount of discussion in this thread as well :)

 

[Perla]

Besides the bans and unbans, I'm afraid that this month we will have "Frankenstein Usage Stats" because some very used mons got banned, some mons got unbanned not immediately, some additional mons might be banned soon, some NFE mons might be used after the 13th (without spoilers, I see 2 interesting ground types) and some mons might be heavily buffed (and consequently ban-worthy) thanks to a number of returning moves: this might even include a couple of unbanned mons (it's not confirmed, but there are people who think that we will get Expanding Force back).
I don't know the "bureaucratic" aspects of the tier changes, but wouldn't it be more sensible to consider only the usage stats of the 2nd half of September to decide what stays and what should drop, if possible?
In this way we could have a clearer and closer picture of the real meta, even if it's still perfectible.
In Gen 8, we had mid-month tier changes, so technically it shouldn't be impossible.
Starting from the 15th, there would also be a couple of days to get rid of mons that became problematic, without polluting the usage.
It was just a random idea, anyway.

 

[Mijzelffan]

Besides the bans and unbans, I'm afraid that this month we will have "Frankenstein Usage Stats" because some very used mons got banned, some mons got unbanned not immediately, some additional mons might be banned soon, some NFE mons might be used after the 13th (without spoilers, I see 2 interesting ground types) and some mons might be heavily buffed (and consequently ban-worthy) thanks to a number of returning moves: this might even include a couple of unbanned mons (it's not confirmed, but there are people who think that we will get Expanding Force back).
I don't know the "bureaucratic" aspects of the tier changes, but wouldn't it be more sensible to consider only the usage stats of the 2nd half of September to decide what stays and what should drop, if possible?
In this way we could have a clearer and closer picture of the real meta, even if it's still perfectible.
In Gen 8, we had mid-month tier changes, so technically it shouldn't be impossible.
Starting from the 15th, there would also be a couple of days to get rid of mons that became problematic, without polluting the usage.
It was just a random idea, anyway.

I asked about something like this in the usage stats discussion thread, and Marty's reply was that he no longer has as much free time as he did during the 2020 pandemic when they implemented this so they won't be doing half-monthly updates.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...stics-discussion-thread.3711767/#post-9705424

NU is just going to trail 4 months behind OU, the next wave of drops caused by the dlc will hit NU in December, and if the speculation of the follow-up dlc releasing in December then that second dlc wave won't hit NU until April 2024, after which it can finally settle into the definitive gen 9 NU that people will be playing in future generations.

 

[DimLug]

Thoughts on additions that I've been using:

Hurray, a Steel-type! I've been trying out AV which has felt decent, but nowhere near as good as last gen since it lost some of it's amazing coverage. Unfortunately, it doesnt take hits as well as you'd want and gets worn-down really quick. Lefties with Protect seems like something worth trying because of the Choice Fighting-types.

I love this guy, the set versatility and typing feels awesome right now. Grass+ghost feels really difficult to switch into and the physical/special ambiguity can net you a big hit as the opponent try's to midground. Super reliable defogger at the moment, matches up well into lead volt switch mons. This feels like a mainstay and will likely settle into a strong position in the tier.

I've been using a Nasty Plot Tera Blast Ground set with this and it just rips through unprepared teams. If this thing was Base105 or higher oh my lord would it be so broken. Thankfully, it's slightly slower speed means it has a much larger pool of mons that can revenge it. This mon feels really really good.

I think this thing faces too much competition from Rotom-mow and Jolteon. The speed is obviously what sets it apart, but I don't find that to be particularly important at the moment since both Rotom-mow and Flamigo are both faster with scarf. Maybe in a meta where it outspeeds more scarfers it would be worth it.

Flamigo is a friend. I definitely see this as the most bannable mon in the tier right now, however, I have found it to be manageable. Rocky Helmet feels like a must but feels quite effective at bringing Flamigo to a health where it can be easily revenged or die to recoil. I can see a setup set being cool and perhaps choice sets running roost as a last move to offset all the chip.

I've tried using specs a few times and i think the meta is still too offensive for it. I get one kill and then it ends up feeling like fodder. As the meta gets bulkier I expect this to get better. The severe lack of Fairy and Steel types makes me feel like this will likely be too difficult to switch into in the long run, but I haven't had it feel like the best mon on either side of the field just quite yet.

I have used a Bulky AV set and that just feels like reliable glue. I have faced many of the Belly Drum sets and haven't been goobed really. It doesnt feel like something where simply positioning yourself 1 turn for a safe Belly Drum nets you the game. There's a lot of pokemon that are faster and resist Bullet Punch. Guts sets are something that I'm really interested in right now because Knock-Off lets it make progress for itself.

He is a good boy. I think highly of this right now since it feels like the most reliable check to fighting spam. I put the helmet on him to make sure I get some progress. As people adapt to it it will probably get worse cuz of its passivity.

Its doing the same thing it was doing before. Volt Absorb feels even better now that there's more volt switch in the tier and Sandaconda still being the only ground means not much changed.

This thing is way better than I thought it would be. Really strong and has some interesting and versatile set variety.

This thing feels like it's where it should be power-level wise. It isn't impossible to kill but can end up walling a team if the opponent sacks there damage makers. Being weak to hazards and knock off makes this thing manageable and allows me to actually appreciate it instead of just hating it

Gonna end up being the most-common scarfer and is very good. Levitate is fantastic for getting in safely and volt+leaf storm means somethings dying or getting pivoted on.

This things speed-tier is awesome right now. I think Plot sets with have a lot of freedom with the last slot all of which can really help lazzle beat its would be check, and then be hard to revenge.

Kinda feel like this has been overshadowed by other fighting and fire types, but I think holds a unique position as a Physical firetype. I used a scarf one on a shitty offense build that got a lot of surprise kills. I really dont think Setup is the way to go with this guy though.

Eruption go brrr. fun mon, i like

I think this thing without illusion would be a really threatening pokemon currently. When you add illusion into the mix it just becomes broken and too oppressive. The mind-games are unhealthy and its very hard to midground.

Thoughts on Additions I haven't used

Thoughts on additions that I haven't used:

This thing is super hard to kill but kinda gets blanked by other grass types like Decidueye. Faces a lot of competition from the other grass-types but should stick around for a while.

Haven't had a chance to use this yet, but I think it will be a potent setup sweeper and FS pivot. Seems like it will pair nicely with all the fighting-types with FutureSight+Uturn.

Haven't used this myself yet, but seems like a decent util mon with nice defensive tera cabilities. I see this thing finding it's niche as a fire-type check.

Power-level increase of the tier might make it so this thing can't just setup and be unkillable, but maybe that's not true and it'll just start running away with games again because of Para.

Someone can try using this on TR maybe? Otherwise, I think with Tera it has the potential to 2for1 trade, but it feels too volatile to be reliable at that.

As a screens setter, I dont think its really that much better than our other options. Screens HO is going to be good regardless of the setter imo. As an individual mon, I think we've seen how Bulky Setup mons have become a real problem for NU this gen because of Tera and like Dudunsparce, I can't really decide yet whether the increase in power level offsets this enough.

I have not used this and haven't really run into it much. Probably ends up being broke once the meta slows down.

I think this is just outclassed by Meloetta and Indeedee, but maybe it has some stuff going for it like Knock. Idk

Havent seen one yet.

:Mismagmius: Haven't seen one yet.

Seems okay, the low spdef makes it feel exploitable, but it does come in for free on a few things and get hazards going.

The lead set is cool. BU sets seem just barely not bulky enough, especially with how offensive things are right now.

Completely overshadowed by every other fighting type addition.

Seems really good for spin and being able to Pivot and stay healthy.

I think util sets probably wont work. I remember trying that in SS and it just dies too quickly. CM Kiss like mesprit seems really scary but the power drop off is significant so might not be able to actually snowball.

Agree with Decidueye. Seems like it will have a very strong NU presence again. The versatility is insane. Is it physical with Swords Dance or Choice Band? Is it special with Nasty Plot or Choice Specs? Is it a defensive set with Defog or Knock Off? It's often hard to tell until it actually comes in and uses a move. Grass/Ghost STAB is resisted by very few things in the tier, and it has viable STAB moves on both the physical and special side for both of its types (and it'll likely get Poltergeist again when that move returns, so get ready for that). It also gets Brave Bird/Hurricane to nail certain things like Appletun/Toxicroak. As for a Tera type, I've liked special Fighting Tera Blast to take out Coil Orthworm. Special Ground Tera Blast can threaten Qwilfish-H. Tera Dark can turn Decidueye into a "we have Bisharp at home" type of mon with STAB bonuses on Knock Off/Sucker Punch, and it can help Decidueye take Dark/Ghost moves that otherwise threaten it. Of course, Tera Ghost can always be tried to make your Ghost STAB moves stronger while getting rid of its pesky weaknesses that its Grass typing brings. As for defensive sets, it's a solid Defogger that can run Defog, Roost, Knock Off, and U-Turn for a great supporter that has passable special bulk. It's not without its counters though. Bombirdier resists both of its STABs and can threaten it with its own STAB moves. Blissey stonewalls any specially oriented Decidueyes and threatens to cripple it with Thunder Wave. Qwilfish-H walls physical variants and can easily set up hazards in front of it and/or threaten a Crunch. Other, faster threats like Scyther and Sneasel can also revenge kill it, but they should be wary of a possible Shadow Sneak/Sucker Punch especially after a Swords Dance. And of course, until Scrappy Flamigo is banned that's a very hard counter as well. All in all, I doubt it will be banworthy especially when the metagame becomes more used to its presence, but it's already been putting in a lot of work for me and I believe it's returned to be a force in NU for a third generation in a row lol.

 

[Perla]

I asked about something like this in the usage stats discussion thread, and Marty's reply was that he no longer has as much free time as he did during the 2020 pandemic when they implemented this so they won't be doing half-monthly updates.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...stics-discussion-thread.3711767/#post-9705424

NU is just going to trail 4 months behind OU, the next wave of drops caused by the dlc will hit NU in December, and if the speculation of the follow-up dlc releasing in December then that second dlc wave won't hit NU until April 2024, after which it can finally settle into the definitive gen 9 NU that people will be playing in future generations.

I see and it's understandable, but I have to specify that I didn't ask for a half-month tier change, but just the canonical one on October 1, considering only the second half of the month instead of the whole month.
I don't know Marty's "behind the scenes", so maybe this is still problematic for example in terms of storing the usage data of the first half of September.
But I didn't ask for a double tier update, just to be clear.

 

[Pika134]

So with the recent tier shifts and unbans I want to discuss the pokemon that might be ban and the potential broken pokemon.


Broken Pokemon That Might get Ban:

I'm going to be honest I absolutely hate Flamigo. It's just an annoying pokemon that's has zero counter and nothing can not switch into a stab cc. The only pokemon that can check Flamigo is Drifblim, however relying on only one that can also be worn down is very unhealthy.

Hariyama is just straight up broken. It excels at two sets that are Guts and Belly Drum makes it impossible to switch-in.

After using Hoopa in a few games I can say confidently it's definitely going to be ban. It's way too strong and the special walls that suppose to check Hoopa just gets destroyed or 2 shot by Psyshock.

While I don't think Grimmsnarl is broken right now but it will get the ban hammer soon. Bulk Up and screens sets are going to make it broken.


Potential Broken Pokemon:

While I do feel like Zoroark has good checks, but I can see why people want Zoroark get the boot. Tera Dark + Choice Specs, and Illusion is going to make Zoroark a lot problematic.

While I do see Jolteon getting the ban hammer. I do believe Jolteon isn't broken right now, however with some potential bans I think it will get the ban hammer.

I don't think Delphox is broken, but with potential bans I feel like it will cause a lot of problems.

Heracross is in weird spot. While it's definitely strong with sets like Guts and Scarf Moxie it's just face competition against Hariyama and Flamigo(two pokemon that are really broken). I do believe after Flamigo and Hariyama get the ban, I feel like Heracross will get ban next.

Meloetta is in the same vein as Heracross. While it's strong but the few games I use it I felt like it wasn't broken. I might be wrong and it will be a broken threat, but for right now I don't think it's a broken.

I will say that Mismagius will get the ban hammer as well. I do think there are things that can hold Mismagius back it's bulk and hp is straight up trash, however definitely keeping an eye on it.

 

[Amateur Aeon]

Being perfectly honest, I'm a newcomer to NU, but I'm a big fan of NU content and NU allows me to have fun with pokémon I want to build teams with. I wanted to add some of my own commentary even though I know it means very little.

I've been experimenting on the ladder and whilst the quick bans that have been done this far are much needed, the fact that I have to run defensive Rotom Fan on certain teams so I can completely wall a single flamingo is very concerning for its viability in the meta. Rotom Fan is interesting but really not what I want on my team. Despite concerns of H-Electrode not having any use, I did have fun with running Chloroblast on it on a team with Arboliva, since it can utilise Grassy Terrain to nuke certain pokémon in a way Jolteon simply cannot do without Tera and/or CM. I think if AV Goodra teras it might be able to wall Jolteon, but who knows on that one.

I have an abundance of concern about Hoopa as it felt pretty oppressive when it was in the meta, but we shall see. As far as Grimm goes, the greater presence of Encore is nice, but Grimm can effectively counter some of those pokémon due to its natural typing, such as Delphox. Heracross is slept on and has managed to sweep my entire team with the right set once it gets going— I'm not sure if that's due to me being, well, an amateur, or if it's just actually that powerful. Meloetta is terrifying but versaile and can put me in the grave whenever I fail to build in a counter for a team— I hope it will be balanced, but we have some stacked psychics and assuming you tera steel to wall it, it can just turn into a fighting type. I'm loving the greater presence of ghost types and fighting types, but I sincerely wish we had more steel types for managing some of these pokémon that had a special defense stat higher than 0.

 

[etern]

Hi everyone, the NU Council has agreed on an initial slate for our first Council vote this month which will take place on the 10th.

The following Pokemon will be voted on:

Delphox , Flamigo , Zoroark , Hariyama , Meloetta , Primeape , and Salazzle .

Just a reminder, just because something is on the slate does not mean it is guaranteed to be banned, nor does something not being on the slate suggest that it wont be looked at in a future slate or suspect test. These are just the Pokemon which members of the NU Council nominated to be looked at. Let us know what your thoughts are on these mons, do you think any of them should be quickbanned? Are any of them balanced in the meta? Stay tuned for the results of this vote later in the week!

 

[Rabia]

Pretty broken Pokemon in my limited experience using it. Scrappy CC has extremely limited counterplay especially if bolstered by Tera Fighting. The knocks against Flamigo are it can be forced to trade itself for Rocky Helmet Pokemon like Tera Fairy Sandaconda and Qwilfish and it's not THAT fast, but overall the defensive counterplay just isn't there.


Also a very strong Pokemon albeit one that provides some nice defenses to the tier and general utility overall. I think if it wasn't so set diverse I could deal with it more, but between Specs/Scarf/CM/mixed with Relic Dance it's hard to get consistent answers. Again like Flamigo it's not the fastest thing ever and has pretty exploitable physical bulk, but imo it's a bit too good at cheesing its checks.


In theory this Pokemon should be right up there with Meloetta. Psyshock + Dazzling Gleam/Tera Blast Ground beats basically any defensive stop it'd have otherwise. I think the biggest gripe I have with it is how congested a Speed tier it sits in; being just slower than Scyther, Zoroark, and Mismagius is pretty buns. I need to use it more before deciding how I'll vote but am leaning ban at the moment.


unsure on all three of these, zoroark and salazzle are the ones i think i could see myself voting ban on the most but will have to play games to know

 

[zS]

i'll bring out my opinion on the voted mons and where i stand rn. not sure if these will be my final votes since i will still play a bunch of games btwn now and the vote but here i go anyway.
i think flamigo is a no brainer ban, this guy is just ridiculous and pretty much on the same level as the ones who were banned before him (ie drednaw/intel/toxt) in my opinion. shit has no switch-in, and every game is basically a trade btwn migos and i can't stand it anymore.
meloetta is pretty broken in my opinion, there's a very small pool of switch ins and mons that check cm / specs are completely different and you can't afford two slots to keep in check since there's a lot you need to keep in mind while building. it does have 4mss which only slightly hinders it, but idt this can stay any longer. i'll be most likely voting ban on this.
okay, delphox is a mon that i underrated a lot in the first few days, and when it was first brought up by a fellow councilman in the chat i was completely pro-dnb side. but this thing has grown on me quite a lot and after toying with it and struggling to find good switchins myself, i have come to the conclusion that this guy is probably worse than meloetta. i'll most likely will be voting ban on this.
mhm, this guy i honestly don't get where the hypes from, it has a great speed tier, illusion mindgames are obviously annoying but idt it's a very good mon to begin with just that the brokens (flamigo, delphox, meloetta) are enabled very well by it and and also enable zoroark fairly well. will for sure be voting dnb as i think none of the sets are particularly good on their own, and just that brokens allow it to disguise a bit too effectively.
i think this guy is a fantastic addition to the tier, but it might end up being too much in the future. still for now i think it's just a great mon that does what a great mon does, efficient progress, checks a bunch of key threats in the metagame and has good sweeping potential with bd and bulk up sets. great pokemon, not broken in my books.
this mon is annoying, but it just does salazzle things, yet i still think np sets aren't as potent as they were. knock off sets tho, are insane progress makers and with its god tier speed there's pretty much nothing that punishes that progress. still don't think it's quite broken yet, but definitely something i got my eyes on for the future.
honestly, a big disappointment idt this mon is even good. sure rage fist is a broken move but as long as you don't directly hit it or just have an encore mon / a good scarf which most teams have anyway, there's no way you're losing to this guy. even with eviolite it's still very frail, has to pick between bulk and offensive power and this makes it very hard for meape to get going. i think this mon is B rank at best, but oh well.

 

[skierdude101]

Probably should be banned, has a really nice scarf speed tier, and banded just cannot be switched into. The best of way of dealing with Flamigo is to sack your rocky helmet mon to it so that it gets low. BAN

I understand what Zs is saying that the other stuff is inflating how good Zoro looks right now, however, even if Flamigo, Meloetta, Delphox were to be banned, I think there's other pokemon available that can fulfill the same role and have that same probelmatic symbiotic relationship. I'd hold off and vote NO BAN this slate to see if what I'm saying is true, and if the strategy is as effective with other fighting, psychics, etc.

I think this has got to go. NP 3 attacks has very few things that aren't OHKO'd. I have been trying out a WishEncore defensive Delphox which i've really enjoyed, but I think this things setup sets are disgustingly good. It sitting at a slightly lower speed tier than a bunch of other offensive pokemon is the only thing keeping it from being an obvious ban. I'd probably vote BAN.

Okay, I have slapped together a Specs Meloetta team, and my god this thing is scary. It was coming close to 2HKOs on resists like Copper and Delhpox. HyperVoice just 2hko'd a Goodra.... I didn't realize how strong this was tbh. It also has some awesome special bulk without investment meaning it isnt even that easy to revenge kill. The only issue I had with specs was that none of it's attacks felt free when there are so many immunities. As of now, I'm leaning BAN, but I definitely want to use this more.

I haven't played against many Salazzle's but I have used it on a few teams. The speed tier is awesome and retaining knock off is huge, particularly for its two of its best checks, Coalossal and Naclstack. I've seen some people tech trailblaze as a last for sweeping, and i've considered using something like tera blast ground. Despite this, it's fraility means that when you attack you have to be pretty confident you're killing. I think this should hang around for another slate so NO BAN.

Genuinely, I have not found BD sets to be anything spectacular yet. I don't think it feels like an instant win if it gets a BD off. Maybe it's my building that i've had a ghost type on my team so that I can chip it down to revengable range without letting it get juiced up by Drain Punch, but I think there are plenty of mons faster than it that take the +6 Bullet Punch. This feels pretty comfortably a NO BAN for me at the moment.

Haven't used him yet, and haven't been too impressed by its bulk as of yet for setting up rage fist. I think in a less offensive meta it would be more potent, but we just aren't there yet in the tier. NO BAN for me.

EDIT: Meloetta

 

[Phantomistix]

I will not be entertaining the possibility of this mon not getting the boot. Should have been banned last weekend.

I predicted this thing to be quickban material and it quickly proved me right. Very versatile movepool, allowing it to pick and choose its checks. NP + 3 attacks, sub + CM are probably its best sets, and utility moves like wish and encore help maximize its potential.

Hard to tell if it would be balanced after the broken stuff is gone, especially with many of its partners in crime still in the tier (Scyther, Passimian etc). I think the way it forces people to play is very unhealthy and while I do think DNB on this slate is the correct vote, I can see it becoming very problematic very quick.

Can run just about any set it wants and perform well, just like delphox, can pick and choose its checks.

Annoying but not over the top imo. Might be problematic if melo, phox, hariyama leave the tier.

Fighting types are fine imo

EDIT: I take back what I said ab zoro maybe being fine after bans. It won’t. Ban it plz

 

[Finchinator]

The following Pokemon will be voted on:

Delphox , Flamigo , Zoroark , Hariyama , Meloetta , Primeape , and Salazzle .

This is a great group to vote on and I wholly appreciate the procedural transparency displayed here.

is a clear ban, and I expect it to be unanimous or close to it. What’s been said already is the full story: we lack switchins. Scrappy, the increased speed relative to other Fighting types, the secondary STAB, and plenty more bolster Flamigo firmly into NUBL territory. Good riddance.

is an unfortunate ban. It is such a useful Pokemon with this unique typing and it’s speed tier, but with these traits comes the devastating nature of the NP sets and it’s offensive presence with Tera being broken. Psyshock to hit special walls and Encore to abuse its speed are just the icing on the cake here.

I wanted to stick around as I alluded to in my prior post as I was hoping that it would find more natural counters as the tier progresses, but I think it’s broken right now and lean ban. Obviously if people want to be cautious, keeping it won’t make the tier unplayable like Flamigo. I find Specs to be better than CM thanks to the momentum grabbers it tends to team with, but neither has much counterplay and if you want to talk overlap between both variants, then nothing handles the collective. That’s the sign of something broken to me.

are both awesome additions to the tier, especially in terms of Hariyama. I think I can see why some people seem Hariyama overbearing, but I find it more circumstantial than consistent honestly. I think it can be contained enough in this aggressively paced format that it should at least last another round. Primeape isn’t on my personal radar yet, but I’ve yet to use it. Either way, neither should be banned yet I don’t think.

to me is really cancerous in NU and I hope it gets banned even though I feel like it’ll stay. I suppose my plea to the council is to look at the early game dynamic surrounding it and how much guesswork/hypothesizing has to happen. It can already run two drastically different sets between SD and Specs, with both being able to annoy checks with item displacement. Then you factor in the agony around the initial switch, the prospects of Tera Dark making it along the strongest in the format, and the totally split group of checks/counters to each set which maybe has 2-3 Pokenon you can argue to overlap. Stand-alone it’s probably an A+ threat thanks to its speed and versatility, but it has the movepool and ability to really make it unhealthy. I hate the dynamic surrounding Zoroark and I don’t see it being a longterm member of a healthy NU. Maybe I’m in the minority and maybe I just am full of cope or should try to use more varied teams to account for it better, and if it stays it’ll be playable enough anyway since it’s still not as crazy as Flamigo. But I do hope it gets banned.

is the epitome of really good, but not broken to me right now. I think people may not be using the best sets on it, but I also haven’t gotten to fully explore myself yet with so many other options. I’m happy to see it develop and wouldn’t ban it.

 

[Corthius]

BAN

Definitely a broken-on-paper pokemon, I just haven't had much issue with it in practise; might be due to me spamming Bombirdier and SpD Hilfish, and, additionally, ladder isn't always the most representive place to judge. 104 base speed is probably what allowed it to dodge the initial ban wave, and I gotta admit, I was for a long time under the impression that this will make it balanced. I also like it aesthetically in the tier, it just adds such a unique style, but for now BANning it sounds like be the way to go.

I'm just going to point towards Finchinator 's post; I fully agree with their view on it. I wouldn't be overly pressed, if council wants to wait more, especially with such a huge banslate shaking up the metagame (especially Flamigo will change the dynamics of Fighting types vs Ghost types in the tier significantly), but I'd still prefer it, if it goes. Preferably BAN

I have spammed one of zS' Choice Specs Meloetta teams, and it goes insanely strong into the metagame. The fact that its Normal STAB is so much stronger than Indeedee's, it has a lot less checks and counters, and it can pull off AV/CM/Choiced sets a lot easier than it too (pretty much better in every way, besides terrain support). I don't think it is healthy in any way, and I don't see it adding anything to the tier, that we don't get from other pokemon, without the broken unpredictable aspect.
I have only encountered Relict Song once (alongside Throat Spray), and it didn't do all that much, but in theory Meloetta-Pirouette has even more different checks, giving in even more layers of needed counterplay. BAN

Anything that isn't BD cheese is such a good addition to the tier. I love this pokemon so much, especially AV sets. Belly Drum can be set up to win rather easily, but I feel like with Encore being so common in this generation anyway (tera loves to push defensive set up sweepers over the edge) most teams should be fine? Either way, I could see this turning out to be broken, but it isn't outrageously busted atm in my eyes and I truly hope it stays healthy and not broken. Atm DNB

I haven't even seen these enough in games to grasp an opinion on it, but I am planning on using it myself. For now DNB.

Salazzle has not felt broken in any regard to me yet. Tera makes it a bit harder to revengekill, but with those defenses, it still isn't the hardest thing to do. It also has a pretty strong 4MSS from my experience. Between STABs, which are a no brainer, you kinda want Nasty Plot, Toxic, Knock Off, Tera Blast and Encore. It also has pretty cool other options, namely Toxic Spikes and Trailblaze. In the end, this just feels really good at the moment, while being fucked by a little rock made of the sodium salt of hydrochloric acid. DNB as of now.

 

[Pokeslice]

Just like some other council members on here, I wanted to share my thoughts on the slate and where I currently stand on them.

- what needs to be said BAN

- Although I never got around to trying every Meloetta set, I've found that Meloetta is extremely challenging to wall, especially when considering its set variety. I've seen Specs, Scarf, AV, Sub, and Relic Song shenanigans all put in over time and I don't see it having a future here. BAN

-Truthfully, I'm not sure where I stand on Zoroark. On the one hand, I haven't struggled with it much in the games I've faced it. I've either been able to play around it with options like Protect or offensively checking it with Pokemon like Mowtom. I also feel like Zoro loses a bit of its power if it loses strong teammates, such as Flamigo, so all these bans would hinder it. On the other hand, I understand that people feel like something else can always be slotted in over Flamigo, like Heracross, and do the same thing just as effectively thanks to Illusion mind games. I'm going to use this mon more myself before I vote. 50/50

- At first I thought Delphox was mid for being just too slow and wallable, but then I remembered that Psyshock and Tera eliminate almost all defensive answers! I still think its speed tier holds it back a bit, but not enough. I agree with Finch that this being broken sucks because it's so cool, but the only thing stopping this is the ban hammer. BAN

- Honestly, I haven't struggled against Hariyama nor felt like it's been a builder strain. BD sets, although potent and potentially stupid, have consistently failed to impress me, even if that's just ladder play being ladder play. I'm much more intrigued by Bulk Up sets and AV shenanigans, but for right now, I'm going to vote DNB

- Salazzle, like always, has every single thing going for it besides for bulk with a good typing, powerful STABs, Toxic, Knock Off, NP, and an insane speed tier, but up until today, I was firmly in the DNB camp. But then I watched zS versus NHelioX7 play for NUWC. After seeing a 6% Salazzle get 4 kills, a Knock on a Nacl, and outplay a Sucker Grimm with Encore + Toxic, I'm less sure we should keep this in the tier, especially if people start experimenting with wild sets like this. For now, I'm probably DNB, but I also don't think this stays for the gen like in SS.

- As the person who wanted Primeape on the slate, I'm very happy it's up here, simply because my plan worked and now it's on everyone's radar in some way, shape, or form >:) Could I have made a post? Maybe. But that's irrelevant.

I disagree with zS and ski about Primeape in the games that I've used it for kind of all the opposite reasons. I find that getting a Rage Fist boost off is quite easy, whether on something like a Rapid Spin, U-Turn, or any other random hit. And even if you don't always get hit, your opponent is forced to respect what you can do, and it warps a lot of in-game playing to avoid interacting with it. At the same time, I think its combo of bulk and speed is great. You can easily invest to outspeed threats like Hoopa and Decidueye while retaining really solid bulk, or lean much more into the bulky end of the spectrum. I also find that Primeape is a fantastic Tera abuser, since if you're a neutral Tera or a resist Tera, you easily stomach a lot of the hits that would normally KO you, or at least chunk you. I first stumbled on this mon after I got SMOKED by a Tera Water version, so I threw it on a HO team where it easily became my most consistent sweeper, even when paired with Pokemon like SG Tox, Salazzle, Galarcuno, SD Decid, Intel, Hoopa, Mismag, and whatever else cycled throughout the team. I'm probably higher on this mon than anyone else, but I think it has massive potential in a slower paced metagame and is fantastic at punishing fatter teams, all while eating hits you would never expect it to eat. I'll be voting DNB for now only because I think it needs more exploration from myself before I feel I can make that call, but everyone should try it out post slate because 75% of the offensive answers in this tier are potentially being banned.

here's a quick replay of me playing tog stall on ladder where Primeape went stupid. Even if a week or two outdated and not necessarily the best stall team at this point, I think it's a good representation of what Primeape can do to fatter builds, especially ones with Houndstone as the Fighting-type answer.

Primeape Set

Primeape @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Steel / Fairy / Water / Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 200 SpD / 56 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Rage Fist
- Rest / Taunt

 

[poh]

Yeah nasty plot and frankly tera just breaks this mon. Spdef mons don't check it cause psyshock obliterates them, can run a myriad of sets too. Can trick an umbreon, flame charge to outspeed everything (yes this is viable cause it only needs 2 moves to be good), insane coverage on top of a rly good offensive typing. Tera makes this mon rly difficult to rkill so be careful when you want to dark pulse this thing. For now i recommend to use physical scarfers like hera, tauros, flamigo etc. ban

Kind of the same situation as delphox. Meloetta trades speed for utility with uturn. Choiced sets, cm, tera shenanigans. Our defensive options suck against these psychic types ngl. ban

Ngl i'm not as convinced this mon is broken like the aforementioned ones. I think specs is the main demon, sd gets forced out by too much so i think you want the immediate nuking with specs. Blackglasses can work too since stab knock became more exlusive than ever these days. leaning 60/40 ban

They can stay! I think!

 

[Pika134]

Ban, I'm not going to give this a explanation get this stupid bird out of the tier.

As much I thought Delphox wasn't broken however the more time I thought about it and the amount of people using Delphox it made me realize that Delphox was broken. NP sets are generally broken, special walls can't even handle Psyshock, and the Dark-types that suppose to "check" Delphox they get destroyed by a Dazzling Gleam or Focus Blast. So I'm going to vote it to be Ban.

Welp, I was completely wrong. While I haven't used a lot of Meloetta I think it's best for it to get ban. Having good speed and Blissey bulk will cause a lot of problems so I'm going vote it to be Ban.

As much I want Zoroark to stay in Nu, however just like Meloetta I think It's best for Zoroark to get the ban. Tera Dark + Choice Specs is deadly but the main thing that Pushes Zoroark to be broken is Illusion. Illusion in general is just broken that can push a pokemon to its breaking point so with that I will vote to Ban Zoroark.

While Salazzle is indeed fast and strong it isn't broken. The games I face against Salazzle it was very easy to handle, and the one thing that truly holds back Salazzle it's the horrendous bulk. I can see some potential that could be on the next ban slate, but for its a general good pokemon so I will be voting Not to ban.

I'm completely shock to say this but Hariyama isn't as broken as I remember. Don't get me wrong it's strong but the BD sets are more tolerable to handle I think it will shift to using Bulk Up and AV sets so I'm vote it Not to Ban.

You know of all the pokemon in the ban slate Primeape is the one that just confused me. Yeah Rage Fist is indeed a broken move but it's bulk so unimpressed even with Eviolite. The games I did used Primeape it wasn't that broken, If the metagame was a less offensive meta then I would voted to be ban however we aren't in that meta yet so I will be voting Not to ban.

 

[ShuckleDeath]

Hello, few things I wanted to say.

I probably don't need to state more on just how stupid the CB set is, but I will anyway. It is a Pokemon with base 115 Attack stat and with Scrappy it is free to spam Close Combat with little to no drawbacks. That is almost enough for me to call it a little busted, however, it has way more going for it. Secondary STAB Brave Bird is also really easy to spam and has good coverage with Close Combat, as it hits Fairy, Poison, and Psychic neutrally and obviously decimates Bug-types. The fact that it can U-turn is really cool but almost not even that needed as between Brave Bird and Close Combat you kill almost everything anyway. Another thing is that between STABS being so great the 4th moveslot is totally free, you can run several different things there to help such as Tera Blast, but I have tried out Facade and Facade in the 4th slot is ridiculous cause even if you get burned you still have a spammable move. On top of this it can run Choice Scarf which makes it less powerful but makes it a great win con vs. offensive teams I think choiceless sets are unexplored for the most part but I bet those are good too. Absolutely broken Pokemon here.

I love this thing and I have only used defensive Defog sets.

sets

Decidueye @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Long Reach
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Defog
- Roost

Decidueye @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Long Reach
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Roost
- Defog

It is decent going either way but it is a good defogger only really fearing Qwilfish-H and Froslass. The Slow Pivot is really great as well for all these nasty Breakers we have such as Delphox and Guts Hera, Ect. Just a really cool mon I have been using a lot of. I want to try offensive sets but it really is a great pivot and you should try it out.

I really like Naclstack as well. Salt Cure is so good at making progress I have trouble even rocking with it in some games. Protect + Salt cure is my favorite set as it can scout out CB Flamigo and I feel it is a good addition on any playstyle. Fantastic addition.

I think Yama is great because of all the set diversity, Belly Drum may be a bit much tbh but other than that I have tried AV Thick Fat as well as Guts Facade + BU with Tera Steel and I find both of those sets to be good additions. Not sure if Yama needs Facade but it is pretty good coverage to wack Fighting resists and stays powerful unlike Knock which becomes a lot less good after the item is gone, but Knock is still great utility.

 

[Lunar Sloth]

Wanted to talk about a mon that I've had a lot of fun with, Scarf Bruxish!


@ Choice Scarf
Ability: Strong Jaw
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Psychic Fangs
- Wave Crash
- Crunch
- Aqua Jet

I've loved this set since SV NU began honestly, but with the myriad of good fighting types that dropped (heracross, yama, primeape, passimian, flamigo, etc) I thought scarf Bruxish could be a great asset to help deal with them. It's still insanely strong with Strong Jaw Psychic Fangs, and it has a unique speed tier which allows it to outspeed other good scarfers such as Flamigo and both Mowtom and base Rotom. Also being able to outspeed and OHKO Jolteon is quite useful. Poison Fang could be useful as the last move over Aqua Jet, but without Vaporeon in the tier I prefer the emergency priority over Poison Fang. Tera Dark is of course nice for removing your weakness to Sucker Punch and boosting the power of your Crunch. It also prevents Grimmsnarl from Twaving/pivoting out with Parting Shot which could be handy. Bruxish has been really useful as a late game cleaner for me.

 

[Elias PSY]

Lack of switch-ins ,the best way to deal with it were using one of the 2 best checks : Houndstone and Drifblim or slap rocky helmets and hope this click the wrong move ,easy ban

Grouping these 2 together because they are kinda similar cases.Tera makes them snowballing out of control ,tearing our special walls with psyshock and limit the pool of mons able to revenge kill with tera ground who specifically prevent chip damages from jolteon,rotom or hisuian electrode.Although they have interesting options in wish and AV respectively,their strengths are too much to handle.

Zoro keep getting better with new disguise options,illusion shenanigans were already insane to play around with flamigo and they are gonna still be unhealthy again with lesser threats in long term , especially with mons sharing items (boots) and movepool (nasty plot,dark pulse,knock off).

BD sets are manageable,often need tera do significant damages with bullet punch,bulk up sets may be too much on the future but building against it doesn't seem dire rn

Rage fist is broken but doesn't solve his medium bulk even with eviolite.It's easy to chip without rest,has a hard time to break without taunt.He want ghost stab on rage fist but also benefit a lot more from defensive tera like tera water.Not impressive at all

NP sets are fine and doesn't abuse tera too much with these low defenses,corrosion toxic isn't overwhelming rn with guts mons ,naclstack and sandaconda around,it provides a lot of utility to the tier and mostly reward prediction in game.