Metagame np: Stage 7 - Problem

[Gorechomp]

Can we please not bring up this point? Saying Gallade shouldn't be in the tier in first place is horrible reasoning to why it should be banned and should be looked at without that biased mindset. When you compare to Sawk for instance, it has worse abilities and a worse (and crowded) speed tier, while only advantages it has is STAB on Psychic-type attacks to hit Poison-types such as Garbodor and Weezing (hint Sawk can do that too with Mold Breaker Earthquake) and the ability to set up with Swords Dance. In terms of wallbreaking both have next to no switch ins and 2HKO the whole tier so Gallade is not immediately a broken threat.

Last I checked Sawk can't two shot things like eviolite Tangela or Dusclpos unless banded....

Anyway as for Gallade, the only reason he became NU in the first place is because of a typo on Showdown which said it was still in UU when really it got dropped to RU, thus not alot of people used it. Gallade for all intent and purposes does not belong in NU. it just hits too hard. And saying Gallade shouldn't be banned because Sawk isn't is a poor reason. Gallade gets dual STAB, Swords Dance, trick and will-o-wisp to cripple defensive mons, and pretty damn good special defense allowing it to most likely survive special revenge killers, all things Sawk lacks. Gallade just has too many tricks up its sleave and too high attack to be in NU. I stand firmly with my opinion that this thing should be banned.

 

[shiloh]

Last I checked Sawk can't two shot things like eviolite Tangela or Dusclpos unless banded....

Anyway as for Gallade, the only reason he became NU in the first place is because of a typo on Showdown which said it was still in UU when really it got dropped to RU, thus not alot of people used it. Gallade for all intent and purposes does not belong in NU. it just hits too hard. And saying Gallade shouldn't be banned because Sawk isn't is a poor reason. Gallade gets dual STAB, Swords Dance, trick and will-o-wisp to cripple defensive mons, and pretty damn good special defense allowing it to most likely survive special revenge killers, all things Sawk lacks. Gallade just has too many tricks up its sleave and too high attack to be in NU. I stand firmly with my opinion that this thing should be banned.

Neither can Gallade lol. They have the same base attack, while Sawk has higher speed...
Also, your argument was pretty much covered by Hootie and the exact portion you covered, because saying Gallade shouldn't be NU in the first place is not a good reason for it to be banned from NU. Sawk also has better abilities, as well as the same coverage, even if it does lack the same support moves that Gallade has.

 

[Tomahawk]

Can we please not bring up this point? Saying Gallade shouldn't be in the tier in first place is horrible reasoning to why it should be banned and should be looked at without that biased mindset. When you compare to Sawk for instance, it has worse abilities and a worse (and crowded) speed tier, while only advantages it has is STAB on Psychic-type attacks to hit Poison-types such as Garbodor and Weezing (hint Sawk can do that too with Mold Breaker Earthquake) and the ability to set up with Swords Dance. In terms of wallbreaking both have next to no switch ins and 2HKO the whole tier so Gallade is not immediately a broken threat.

I gotta disagree with you here. You really think Sawk is almost better than Gallade? Ability to set up with Swords Dance isn't really a small advantage, cause it's Gallade's main set (afaik). Also, there's more to it. Abilities aren't that much of a difference cause Mold Breaker I guess hits Weezing and Rotom which Gallade also hits with Zen Headbutt / Knock Off and Sturdy is nice but situational if you're not a lead.

Sawk's Speed stat is 85 while Gallade's is 80. Not that much of a difference, speed ties you avoid mainly. I think it's more fair that in fact that are the only advantages of using Sawk, instead of the other way around. Gallade has:

- Secondary STAB which hits a lot of things for good damage.
- Noticably better special bulk which lets it take some special hits (118 SpDef is nothing to scoff at)
- Against some things aka other Fighting-types it has better defensive typing.
- Swords Dance
- Bulk Up
- Will-O-Wisp
- Zen Headbutt / Psycho Cut
- Leaf Blade
- Taunt
- Trick
- Shadow Sneak
- ThunderPunch
- Poison Jab
etc.

Gallade's vast movepool means that there is no sure counter to Gallade until it dies and it shows its 4th move. Can't say the same for Sawk. In fact Sawk can't really beat defensive teams on its own because it has no boosting move. To compara Gallade to Sawk and then conclude Gallade's not broken because Sawk is better or around as good (?) is ludacris.

 

[Kiyo]

I honestly have never played NU, but here are my thoughts.
I have never faced against a Sneasel in my life.

Guys I don't mean to be rude or anything (and i certainly dont mean to single u out man), but can we at least agree to make educated posts? It really doesnt help improve suspect thread discussions to have a bunch of people post their "initial thoughts" if they don't know shit about the tier and / or haven't played against one of the suspects. I swear every time a suspect thread goes up I see a ton of posts that start with something like "I don't play NU much..., never played this tier before but..., i doubt I'll get reqs but...," If you don't know what the fuck you're talking about don't post until you do, play some ladder matches, get some experience, but whatever you do: don't identify yourself as uneducated and attempt to participate in an educated discussion.

 

[Gorechomp]

Neither can Gallade lol. They have the same base attack, while Sawk has higher speed...
Also, your argument was pretty much covered by Hootie and the exact portion you covered, because saying Gallade shouldn't be NU in the first place is not a good reason for it to be banned from NU. Sawk also has better abilities, as well as the same coverage, even if it does lack the same support moves that Gallade has.

Even though it has better abilities, Gallade is still more of a threat. Its wide movepool (knock off,thunderpunch, etc) along with Set up (Swords Dance) just makes it too much of a threat. As Tomahawk just stated, Sawk is only 5 points faster than Gallade and Sawk can be walled by plenty of things (Dusclops, Vileplume, and and eviolite mons to name a few) while Gallade doesn't have this problem because of its coverage moves, as well special bulk to eat hits better. Gallade stats are so high and its movepool so wide, it just makes it unpredictable and a bitch to wall. Thats why Gallade > Sawk.

 

[Hootie]

I gotta disagree with you here. You really think Sawk is almost better than Gallade? Ability to set up with Swords Dance isn't really a small advantage, cause it's Gallade's main set (afaik). Also, there's more to it. Abilities aren't that much of a difference cause Mold Breaker I guess hits Weezing and Rotom which Gallade also hits with Zen Headbutt / Knock Off and Sturdy is nice but situational if you're not a lead.

Sawk's Speed stat is 85 while Gallade's is 80. Not that much of a difference, speed ties you avoid mainly. I think it's more fair that in fact that are the only advantages of using Sawk, instead of the other way around. Gallade has:

- Secondary STAB which hits a lot of things for good damage.
- Noticably better special bulk which lets it take some special hits (118 SpDef is nothing to scoff at)
- Against some things aka other Fighting-types it has better defensive typing.
- Swords Dance
- Bulk Up
- Will-O-Wisp
- Zen Headbutt / Psycho Cut
- Leaf Blade
- Taunt
- Trick
- Shadow Sneak
- ThunderPunch
- Poison Jab
etc.

Gallade's vast movepool means that there is no sure counter to Gallade until it dies and it shows its 4th move. Can't say the same for Sawk. In fact Sawk can't really beat defensive teams on its own because it has no boosting move. To compara Gallade to Sawk and then conclude Gallade's not broken because Sawk is better or around as good (?) is ludacris.

Never said Sawk is better, all I said is that it has better and abilities and both are capable of 2HKOing almost everything. To say that Sawk doesn't have some advantages of its own is ludicrous considering it utilizes Choice Band much better. You are seriously underrating how powerful Sturdy is. It gives Sawk the ability to terrorise even offensive teams and when you pair it with Healing Wish and hazard control (Xatu) it can be very devastating. Also Gallade is seriously hindering its coverage options if it runs anything other than CC, Zen, and Knock Off. You also have to consider the fact that Gallade has to find an opportunity to set up, which can be difficult in metagame where many faster Pokemon reside. I do think Gallade is very deserving of this suspect, but the point of my post was to tell people to not come in this suspect test with a biased opinion and rather have an open mind.

 

[Aasgier]

Tomahawk, Sawk has Taunt and Bulk Up access as well, so saying it has no boosting move is a blatant lie.
Also it is misleading to mention Zen Headbutt, since Sawk has access to Zen Headbutt (and various other moves you mentioned) too. No STAB, sure, and it is a contact move, but it 2HKO's Vileplume anyway (other Poison-types get smacked by Mold Breaker Earthquake).

Kiyo, Getting reqs is often not only a part of skill but also a part of being willing to invest the time to do so. Repeated mispredicts often prevent one from doing so easily - I often depend on plays I make, in battle (my teambuilding kinda sucks and it takes me always a long while to perfect a team, not to mention that I play fairly badly with teams I don't make myself), and a mispredict against Magmortar, Sawk, Gallade, Sneasel, Mespirit or Archeops is easily made, probably even moreso on lower ladder (hi random coverage). Also lost to Knock Off on things that normally don't carry it a few times, and there was that time there was a Knock Off on things like Audino...

 

[shiloh]

- Secondary STAB which hits a lot of things for good damage.
- Noticably better special bulk which lets it take some special hits (118 SpDef is nothing to scoff at) Sturdy on Sawk allows it too take at least one hit
- Against some things aka other Fighting-types it has better defensive typing. Sawk actually resists Knock Off, so matchup against fightings is the same
- Swords Dance I agree
- Bulk Up Sawk technically has bulk up as well, but it just never runs it
- Will-O-Wisp Agree
- Zen Headbutt / Psycho Cut Sawk has Zen Headbutt
- Leaf Blade Never Run This
- Taunt Taunt Sawk is extremely underrated
- Trick Agree
- Shadow Sneak Agree
- ThunderPunch Sawk Gets It
- Poison Jab Sawk gets it

Overall yes, Gallade does have a few things over Sawk, but once you actually list it out, it really isn't as much. Sawk still has the better abilities, and a better Speed Tier. Also pointing out that Gallade has Knock Off is a moot point since Sawk always runs it as well. Sturdy is definetly not situational, due to the fact hazard removal in NU is pretty easy right now with pokemon like Xatu, Togetic, and Kabutops being amon the top mons. Sturdy Sawk is one of the best revenge killers in the tier, as it is guaranteed to live a hit, and deal a lot of Damage with Banded Close Combats that really nothing in the tier wants to take. The speed tier is also a factor due to the fact that Gallade is forced to speed tie with both Kabutops and Mesprit if it runs Jolly, and is outsped by a lot more things if it chooses to run Adamant like Sawk can afford to do, due to the higher speed tier. Overall, I am still on the fence about Gallade, and hopefully more arguments in the thread shows me which direction to vote.

edit:

Even though it has better abilities, Gallade is still more of a threat. Its wide movepool (knock off,thunderpunch, etc) along with Set up (Swords Dance) just makes it too much of a threat. As Tomahawk just stated, Sawk is only 5 points faster than Gallade and Sawk can be walled by plenty of things (Dusclops, Vileplume, and and eviolite mons to name a few) while Gallade doesn't have this problem because of its coverage moves, as well special bulk to eat hits better. Gallade stats are so high and its movepool so wide, it just makes it unpredictable and a bitch to wall. Thats why Gallade > Sawk.

Sawk can easily get by the mons you listed due to the coverage it has, which is almost as good as Gallade (only really lacks Shadow Sneak which is rarely run anyway). It runs Zen Headbutt for Vileplume and Knock Off for Dusclops, Gallade and Sawk also have very similar stats, and their movepools are very similar.

 

[ryan]

Sawk's Speed stat is 85 while Gallade's is 80. Not that much of a difference, speed ties you avoid mainly. I think it's more fair that in fact that are the only advantages of using Sawk, instead of the other way around. Gallade has:

- Secondary STAB which hits a lot of things for good damage.
- Noticably better special bulk which lets it take some special hits (118 SpDef is nothing to scoff at)
- Against some things aka other Fighting-types it has better defensive typing.
- Swords Dance
- Bulk Up
- Will-O-Wisp
- Zen Headbutt / Psycho Cut
- Leaf Blade
- Taunt
- Trick
- Shadow Sneak
- ThunderPunch
- Poison Jab
etc.

Gallade's vast movepool means that there is no sure counter to Gallade until it dies and it shows its 4th move. Can't say the same for Sawk. In fact Sawk can't really beat defensive teams on its own because it has no boosting move. To compara Gallade to Sawk and then conclude Gallade's not broken because Sawk is better or around as good (?) is ludacris.

The extra Speed allows Sawk to outrun Gallade, Kabutops, and Mesprit and to tie with opposing Sawk and Pinsir. That's kind of a big deal.

Most of the "advantages" you listed are irrelevant. Sawk's lack of secondary STAB doesn't matter when it also has Zen Headbutt to 2HKO everything it needs to. The extra special bulk on Gallade is nice, but Sawk effectively has better all-around bulk because of Sturdy, which absolutely isn't only good in the lead position. As long as you keep hazards cleared (which isn't hard to do), Sawk beats everyone offensive Pokemon in the tier 1v1.

As for the rest of the stuff you listed, Leaf Blade, Shadow Sneak, Thunder Punch, Taunt, and Poison Jab are irrelevant because Sawk also gets those. Bulk Up is less irrelevant because even though Sawk also gets it, Gallade obviously uses it better. Will-O-Wisp seems bad because Gallade is slow and would rather spend free turns hitting shit hard or knocking off its checks' and counters' items.

Sturdy really makes all the difference because it allows Sawk to be good against offensively oriented teams while still easily breaking fat balanced teams. Even outside of that, Sawk doesn't NEED to boost to be effective. Gallade does because if you run Choice Band, you're basically running a slower Sawk without Sturdy that does better against what? Togetic? Life Orb still hits hard without boosting, sure, but it doesn't 2HKO resists with Close Combat in the same way Sawk does because the extra power from Choice Band is huge. If a non-Choiced Sawk was good, we'd have been running non-Choiced Sawk long before Gallade came around.

I don't think Sawk is almost better than Gallade. I think it is better than Gallade.

 

[Kiyo]

Tomahawk, Sawk has Taunt and Bulk Up access as well, so saying it has no boosting move is a blatant lie.
Also it is misleading to mention Zen Headbutt, since Sawk has access to Zen Headbutt (and various other moves you mentioned) too. No STAB, sure, and it is a contact move, but it 2HKO's Vileplume anyway (other Poison-types get smacked by Mold Breaker Earthquake).

Kiyo, Getting reqs is often not only a part of skill but also a part of being willing to invest the time to do so. Repeated mispredicts often prevent one from doing so easily - I often depend on plays I make, in battle (my teambuilding kinda sucks and it takes me always a long while to perfect a team), and a mispredict against Magmortar, Sawk, Gallade, Sneasel, Mespirit or Archeops is easily made, probably even moreso on lower ladder (hi random coverage). Also lost to Knock Off on things that normally don't carry it a few times, and there was that time there was a Knock Off on things like Audino...

the suspect system is set up so that the better you play the less games you need to play to get reqs, so your logic is flawed to some degree in saying its less about skill and more about time investment. that's really only true if you're not winning as many games as you could be, the last 5 suspect tests i've played in it took me around 35 games if I had a near flawless win/loss ratio and around 45 if i lost up to 10. I've seen players play nearly 200 games in an attempt to get suspect testing requirements, this is because they're simply not good enough (objectively speaking they dont win enough games).

The idea is the good players should play less because they know what they're doing, and the less skilled players need to play more to understand the metagame.

 

[boltsandbombers]

I gotta disagree with you here. You really think Sawk is almost better than Gallade? Ability to set up with Swords Dance isn't really a small advantage, cause it's Gallade's main set (afaik). Also, there's more to it. Abilities aren't that much of a difference cause Mold Breaker I guess hits Weezing and Rotom which Gallade also hits with Zen Headbutt / Knock Off and Sturdy is nice but situational if you're not a lead.

Sawk's Speed stat is 85 while Gallade's is 80. Not that much of a difference, speed ties you avoid mainly. I think it's more fair that in fact that are the only advantages of using Sawk, instead of the other way around. Gallade has:

- Secondary STAB which hits a lot of things for good damage.
- Noticably better special bulk which lets it take some special hits (118 SpDef is nothing to scoff at)
- Against some things aka other Fighting-types it has better defensive typing.
- Swords Dance
- Bulk Up
- Will-O-Wisp
- Zen Headbutt / Psycho Cut
- Leaf Blade
- Taunt
- Trick
- Shadow Sneak
- ThunderPunch
- Poison Jab
etc.

Gallade's vast movepool means that there is no sure counter to Gallade until it dies and it shows its 4th move. Can't say the same for Sawk. In fact Sawk can't really beat defensive teams on its own because it has no boosting move. To compara Gallade to Sawk and then conclude Gallade's not broken because Sawk is better or around as good (?) is ludacris.

While I do agree that for the most part the comparisons between Sawk and Gallade are a bit over exaggerated in Sawk's favor because of its Speed and abilities, a lot of the moves and qualities you pointed out about Gallade are not really valid or true. Abilities are a pretty big difference when Sawk's abilities are much more useful and practical than Gallade's abilities, which are fairly situational. Mold Breaker, like you said, is actually quite useful given the decent amount of Levitating mons in the tier, most notably Weezing. Sturdy is a great ability that given you can remove hazards allows Sawk to check any offensive threat if you can preserve it to full HP. Realistically, this is much more useful and practical than Gallade's abilities. So what Gallade has a secondary STAB? Sawk has Zen Headbutt as well, and it threatens Poison types almost just as much. How does it have a better defensive typing? Its typing leaves it neutral to Dark type attacks, unlike the others which resist it. Out of all the moves you listed, only Swords Dance, Will-O-Wisp, Trick, Leaf Blade, Shadow Sneak, and Trick are exclusive to Gallade. Will-O-Wisp and Trick I'll give credit for, but Leaf Blade and Shadow Sneak are pretty sub par. Leaf Blade only hits Quagsire which is already 2HKOed by Close Combat most of the time. Shadow Sneak is extremely weak, even on super effective hits. Sawk also has Thunder Punch, Bulk Up, Taunt, and Poison Jab - whether or not it can utilize them as effectively as Gallade can, in the case of Bulk Up moreso, the point still stands. I feel that while Gallade's versatility is somewhat underrated at times, it can be pushed over the top at times.

 

[Tomahawk]

Tomahawk, Sawk has Taunt and Bulk Up access as well, so saying it has no boosting move is a blatant lie.
Also it is misleading to mention Zen Headbutt, since Sawk has access to Zen Headbutt (and various other moves you mentioned) too. No STAB, sure, and it is a contact move, but it 2HKO's Vileplume anyway (other Poison-types get smacked by Mold Breaker Earthquake).

Overall yes, Gallade does have a few things over Sawk, but once you actually list it out, it really isn't as much. Sawk still has the better abilities, and a better Speed Tier. Also pointing out that Gallade has Knock Off is a moot point since Sawk always runs it as well. Sturdy is definetly not situational, due to the fact hazard removal in NU is pretty easy right now with pokemon like Xatu, Togetic, and Kabutops being amon the top mons. Sturdy Sawk is one of the best revenge killers in the tier, as it is guaranteed to live a hit, and deal a lot of Damage with Banded Close Combats that really nothing in the tier wants to take. The speed tier is also a factor due to the fact that Gallade is forced to speed tie with both Kabutops and Mesprit if it runs Jolly, and is outsped by a lot more things if it chooses to run Adamant like Sawk can afford to do, due to the higher speed tier. Overall, I am still on the fence about Gallade, and hopefully more arguments in the thread shows me which direction to vote.

Ok it seems I underrated Sawk's movepool... apologies there. My post was a bit wrong and not great but I was just quick to reply because I think Gallade is amazing... (not implying it is broken or anything ofc just think it is really good)

Though tbf some of these aren't really as good on Sawk as they are on Gallade. Bulk Up on Sawk is not as good as on Gallade, same for stuff like ThunderPunch and Poison Jab on a non-boosting set aren't as threatening. They are just to remove something and then sweep. Zen Headbutt is especially irrelevant on Sawk of course.

The extra Speed allows Sawk to outrun Gallade, Kabutops, and Mesprit and to tie with opposing Sawk and Pinsir. That's kind of a big deal.

Most of the "advantages" you listed are irrelevant. Sawk's lack of secondary STAB doesn't matter when it also has Zen Headbutt to 2HKO everything it needs to. The extra special bulk on Gallade is nice, but Sawk effectively has better all-around bulk because of Sturdy, which absolutely isn't only good in the lead position. As long as you keep hazards cleared (which isn't hard to do), Sawk beats everyone offensive Pokemon in the tier 1v1.

As for the rest of the stuff you listed, Leaf Blade, Shadow Sneak, Thunder Punch, Taunt, and Poison Jab are irrelevant because Sawk also gets those. Bulk Up is less irrelevant because even though Sawk also gets it, Gallade obviously uses it better. Will-O-Wisp seems bad because Gallade is slow and would rather spend free turns hitting shit hard or knocking off its checks' and counters' items.

Sturdy really makes all the difference because it allows Sawk to be good against offensively oriented teams while still easily breaking fat balanced teams. Even outside of that, Sawk doesn't NEED to boost to be effective. Gallade does because if you run Choice Band, you're basically running a slower Sawk without Sturdy that does better against what? Togetic? Life Orb still hits hard without boosting, sure, but it doesn't 2HKO resists with Close Combat in the same way Sawk does because the extra power from Choice Band is huge. If a non-Choiced Sawk was good, we'd have been running non-Choiced Sawk long before Gallade came around.

I don't think Sawk is almost better than Gallade. I think it is better than Gallade.

Well I think we disagree because it feels like you are comparing CB Sawk to CB Gallade. Obv my post wasn't good I'll admit that, but I think Gallade all around is better than Sawk.

CB Sawk vs CB Gallade? I can admit that Sawk can be better at times, the STAB on ZH isn't as relevant etc and Mold Breaker etc is quite useful.

However, there is no set Sawk has that compares to SD Gallade, or BU Gallade also. I don't think ThunderPunch, Poison Jab, Shadow ASneak listed are irrelevant. I mean, Those are for the 4th move on the SD set which is mainly what I was talking about. SD / Knock Off / Close Combat / 4th move. It usually is ZH but it is not needed imo, so you can slot in other moves. The ones mentioned then OHKO pmuch anything, leaving no real counters left.

About the Speed difference, you can't really include Sawk and Gallade in that comparison. Mesprit doesn't always run Max Speed, Kabutops is Adamant regularly (tohugh tbf that is an advantge to Adamant Sawk I will def admit), Pinsir is true also. But that's not enough reason for me to declare Sawk as better.

"If a non-Choiced Sawk was good, we'd have been running non-Choiced Sawk long before Gallade came around." I agree. But Gallade can set up more regularly with that beast SpDef, threatening a lot of stuff and actually has SD to set up. Bulk Up Sawk doesn't compare to Gallade. I'm not trying to argue CB Gallade > CB Sawk (might be though.. Trick is good) but SD Gallade doesn't compare to any Sawk set.

Gallade is way better against defensive teams. It's even against offensive teams, slightly edging towards Sawk perhaps. But that's just my opninion

While I do agree that for the most part the comparisons between Sawk and Gallade are a bit over exaggerated in Sawk's favor because of its Speed and abilities, a lot of the moves and qualities you pointed out about Gallade are not really valid or true. Abilities are a pretty big difference when Sawk's abilities are much more useful and practical than Gallade's abilities, which are fairly situational. Mold Breaker, like you said, is actually quite useful given the decent amount of Levitating mons in the tier, most notably Weezing. Sturdy is a great ability that given you can remove hazards allows Sawk to check any offensive threat if you can preserve it to full HP. Realistically, this is much more useful and practical than Gallade's abilities. So what Gallade has a secondary STAB? Sawk has Zen Headbutt as well, and it threatens Poison types almost just as much. How does it have a better defensive typing? Its typing leaves it neutral to Dark type attacks, unlike the others which resist it. Out of all the moves you listed, only Swords Dance, Will-O-Wisp, Trick, Leaf Blade, Shadow Sneak, and Trick are exclusive to Gallade. Will-O-Wisp and Trick I'll give credit for, but Leaf Blade and Shadow Sneak are pretty sub par. Leaf Blade only hits Quagsire which is already 2HKOed by Close Combat most of the time. Shadow Sneak is extremely weak, even on super effective hits. Sawk also has Thunder Punch, Bulk Up, Taunt, and Poison Jab - whether or not it can utilize them as effectively as Gallade can, in the case of Bulk Up moreso, the point still stands. I feel that while Gallade's versatility is somewhat underrated at times, it can be pushed over the top at times.

Sturdy is great of course. I'm not at all claiming Gallade has agood abilities. And come on, you guys are ignoring STAB on Zen Headbutt? Ok let me show you a calc or a few then:

252+ Atk Choice Band Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 374-444 (102.7 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 250-296 (68.6 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 336-396 (94.9 - 111.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 224-264 (63.2 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 266-314 (79.8 - 94.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Sawk Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 178-210 (53.4 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

STAB matters! I mean come on..

I'm not claiming it has better defensive typing per se. Not resisting Dark sucks, but it's not thát common (Sneasel mainly). Fighting resistance is nice because you can set up ons tuff like Choiced Sawk..

Leaf Blade and Shadow Sneak I'm not saying are great moves, but they emphasize what I think makes Gallade so scary: slap it on SD as 4th move and a potential counter for Gallade is not counter anymore (Quagsire or Fletchinder).

Sawk can't really use ThunderPunch, Poison Jab in the way I meant, as in stopping a counter on the SD set.
.

 

[Venoxio]

Working on reqs right now, but in the meantime, I'll post my thoughts.

Sneasel: I would vote ban in any circumstance. This little monster restricts my teambuilding so much. It's not even funny. Sure, Gurdurr completely bodies it with Mach Punch, but that's about the only non-Scarfed mon that can kill it unscathed. Anything else is going to take serious damage, or in the case of Eviolite users such as Ferroseed or Pawniard, get their item knocked off. It's two main STABs, Knock Off and Icicle Crash, are also very powerful. (Knock off only is if there's an item.) And there is a terrifying Swords Dance set that literally makes mons drop dead.

Gallade: I haven't had too much trouble with Gallade, but from my experiences when I have had trouble with, I vote ban. This only dropped cause of messed up teambuilder I wouldn't call Gallade broken, just a bit overwhelming. It has many different sets: SD, Sub SD (maybe), Bulk Up, Scarfed, and Banded. (there could be more) It also has unexpectedly high special defense, allowing it to take some neutral hits. Scarf set hinders it's average speed, and it can sweep teams if given the right setup. And finally, I might get hate for this, but I think Gallade and Sawk (which everyone seems to be comparing) are equal in their own rights. Sawk has better abilities, and better coverage, but Gallade has a better typing and defenses.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

The main difference between Sawk and Gallade is that Gallade has options. On Choice sets, Gallade has Trick to cripple things walls more than Knock Off does. Memento is also a very niche, but certainly viable option. So is WoW. hollywood showcased the use of Safeguard Gallade in hollywood's paddlings. The comparison between Sawk and Gallade is completely fair when looking at them from a completely offensive standpoint. However, Gallade has the potential to provide it's team with utility that Sawk simply cannot. This utility, in my opinion, is what drives it over the edge and what would lead me to vote ban if the vote was today.

 

[Empress]

Thoughts at the moment

Sneasel: I never until recently discovered how much of a threat Sneasel was. Simply put, it's damn impossible to check in the NU tier. With its very strong dual STABs backed by a deceptively high 95 Attack, it has almost zero switch-ins, so there goes checking it defensively. It also outspeeds almost the entire relevant metagame, so say goodbye to checking it offensively. When you look at literally everything Dark-weak running Colbur Berry, it's a pretty good indicator that Sneasel is having an overcentralizing effect on the tier. Some might see it as adaptation, but I see it as emergency checking. (Tbh I feel that Malamar is as much the reason for all the Colbur Berries as Sneasel is, but that's a story for a different day.) TL;DR, it's impossible to check and a restrictive force over the metagame, so I think it should be banned. It's weird b/c I've actually not struggled with it on the ladder that badly, but that's really not a legit reason for me to say no ban.

Gallade: Strange as it may sound, Gallade isn't all that it's cracked up to be in NU. When I saw it get force-dropped, I thought it'd be impossible to beat, but it's not. Despite being tough to switch into, that's the case for nearly any wallbreaker, which NU has plenty of. And unlike Sneasel, Gallade can be checked offensively due to its low-ish Speed. Its versatility is scary, for sure, but I wouldn't say that it leaves you in a complete guessing game, and not all of the sets and moves that it can supposedly run are all that viable. It's basically a slightly better Sawk, which I think this tier can handle. Though I'm normally the guy who votes to ban everything, as it stands I will vote do not ban on Gallade. I'll be sure to read up on the ban arguments, though.

 

[kingmidas]

Before reading this I do want you to know I completely get what you're saying, but...

I'm not sure why I would have to play a tier before posting opinions. I just see this from the looks of the situation and I determine whether the suspects are too much for the tier. Past experiences are not the same thing as common Pokemon Showdown knowledge. Every tier system can have the same amount of broken as the other tiers (System, not meta. There is a huge difference.)

Because if you have no actual argument points aside from "This thing looks terrifying" theres no reason to really post. If you wanna discuss it, you need actual metagame knowledge to discuss one side of the debate or the other, you're just clogging up the thread. with stuff anyone could post.

 

[Jim E. Russler]

Thoughts at the moment

Sneasel: I never until recently discovered how much of a threat Sneasel was. Simply put, it's damn impossible to check in the NU tier. With its very strong dual STABs backed by a deceptively high 95 Attack, it has almost zero switch-ins, so there goes checking it defensively.

I think saying Sneasel has almost zero switch ins or cannot be checked defensively is an exaggeration. It may seem that way at a glance, and I underestimated the amount of those we had myself. However, a respectable number of Pokemon in the tier can handle Sneasel's STABs, and you don't even have to dip below the B ranks to find them.

Mega Audino, Gurdurr, Mawile, Carracosta, Quagsire, Regirock, Barbaracle, Hariyama, Granbull and Poliwrath can all handle the Ice/Dark coverage moves without much trouble, though to be fair Gurdurr and Hariyama don't like switching into Knock Off even though they can take it. Many of these Pokemon can handle the potential Low Kick coverage just as well.

 

[Empress]

I think saying Sneasel has almost zero switch ins or cannot be checked defensively is an exaggeration. It may seem that way at a glance, and I underestimated the amount of those we had myself. However, a respectable number of Pokemon in the tier can handle Sneasel's STABs, and you don't even have to dip below the B ranks to find them.

Mega Audino, Gurdurr, Mawile, Carracosta, Quagsire, Regirock, Barbaracle, Hariyama, Granbull and Poliwrath can all handle the Ice/Dark coverage moves without much trouble, though to be fair Gurdurr and Hariyama don't like switching into Knock Off even though they can take it. Many of these Pokemon can handle the potential Low Kick coverage just as well (Regirock gets 3HKOd, hazard support Carracosta isn't even guaranteed to be 5HKOd).

That is true; I'll give you that. Nonetheless, a mon having checks and counters does not necessarily mean that it isn't broken. A lot of banned mons had their fair share of checks and counters; I won't list them all for fear of TL;DR'ing, but I can provide examples if need be. Also through my experience, M-Audino is a pretty shaky check to Sneasel thanks to the threat of Icicle Crash. Everyone seems to have forgotten about that move... it's like M-Pidgeot's Hurricane in UU; a 30% chance to incapacitate a check/counter is no small chance. Given Sneasel's Speed, it should have no trouble flinching a foe. Such uncompetitiveness is the icing on the cake.

 

[Luck O' the Irish]

That is true; I'll give you that. Nonetheless, a mon having checks and counters does not necessarily mean that it isn't broken. A lot of banned mons had their fair share of checks and counters; I won't list them all for fear of TL;DR'ing, but I can provide examples if need be. Also through my experience, M-Audino is a pretty shaky check to Sneasel thanks to the threat of Icicle Crash. Everyone seems to have forgotten about that move... it's like M-Pidgeot's Hurricane in UU; a 30% chance to incapacitate a check/counter is no small chance. Given Sneasel's Speed, it should have no trouble flinching a foe. Such uncompetitiveness is the icing on the cake.

Mega audino takes like 30-35% from cb icicle crash iirc (whatever it is it's not that much), so the only thing it has to worry about cb sneasel is getting flinched at an unfortunate time, like you said. Plus sneasels icicle crash is not really that comparable to mega pidges hurricane since it can't just bs its way through its counters nearly as easy. Mega pidge can confuse its switchins on the switch and then get free hax while it switches out, while sneasel actually has to stay in to get a flinch. I highly doubt sneasel is gonna stay in on defensive mawile to try to get like 2 damage off and risk getting rocks set up/killed, you get the idea. Saying sneasel is "uncompetitive" this way is a complete overexaggeration

 

[thesecondbest]

OK first off people above me say "omg icicle crash can flinch nothing is a counter please ban" but please realize that it has 90 accuracy. Now for my opinions:
Gallade - Ban
Sawk is good, and it just practically got a primal form. Gallade is waaay better than sawk for the following reasons:
- Psychic Typing, which helps vs other fighting types and pdef poisons that beat other fighting types
- Amazing spdef
- It can set up with sd or bulk up
- It can run a utility set with wish, WoW and its awesome spdef
- a better movepool, featuring trick, destiny bond, taunt, leaf blade for quag, tpunch for mantine, shadow sneak for priority
(and also a gimmick calm mind set shhhh)
The most important parts are SD and zen headbutt, allowing it to sweep though teams that have vileplume, garbodor, or weezing. Too strong and centralizing.
Sneasel - Do Not Ban
I run hariyama on most of my teams so maybe my opinion is skewed, but bulky fairies beat this thing, so your sawk check (granbull probably) can beat this too. Not as informed on it since I haven't played too much on the ladder (my team was sawk/gallade/yama/sneasel/clefairy/samurott btw, fighting spam is balanced), but it only has 95 attack and functions like a (the next two words are opinions) less scary scyther since it doesnt have u-turn. Scyther has way better bulky and recovery, 10 lower speed but 15 higher attack. I might change my opinion but for now I am No Ban.

 

[Rapture]

People really need to stop making Gallade out to be this lord of nu, at the very least, when compared to Sawk, I would say that they are equal in power and viability, it's just simply that Gallade that is still in the "new toy" stage from when it dropped a few weeks ago.

 

[Jim E. Russler]

That is true; I'll give you that. Nonetheless, a mon having checks and counters does not necessarily mean that it isn't broken. A lot of banned mons had their fair share of checks and counters; I won't list them all for fear of TL;DR'ing, but I can provide examples if need be. Also through my experience, M-Audino is a pretty shaky check to Sneasel thanks to the threat of Icicle Crash. Everyone seems to have forgotten about that move... it's like M-Pidgeot's Hurricane in UU; a 30% chance to incapacitate a check/counter is no small chance. Given Sneasel's Speed, it should have no trouble flinching a foe. Such uncompetitiveness is the icing on the cake.

I agree, I can't recall anything that was banned from NU atm that didn't have at least a handful of reliable checks and/or counters. But I noticed a lot of posts about Sneasel having next to no switch-ins, so I thought it was important to address that.

I've actually had that exact Icicle Crash scenario happen to me recently. I feel like the reason it isn't being brought up as much is because the Sneasel player will want to avoid taking the gamble on the flinch since most of its defensive checks/counters can retaliate well against it. Unless the Sneasel player is backed into a corner and needs to take the risk, they aren't going to put their hopes on the flinch, so it mostly comes into play when Sneasel is the last Pokemon.

 

[Jefozz]

Man.... this ladder.
Anyways
Gallade-This thing is an absolute monster. With its amazing psychic/fighting/dark coverage moves, OK speed, and good special bulk it can plow through teams with ease. Gallade can also run a variation of sets including bulk up, Swords Dance and choice scarf making it unpredictable and amazingly hard to counter. I don't actually play a lot of NU but it is hard to think of one consistent counter.I would say BAN.

Sneasel- This mon is incredible. Sky-high speed, good attack stat, menacing coverage moves, priority, this mon has it all. Contrary to Gallade, Sneasel is really, really frail, and gets worn down easily by the likes of Life Orb(if you're using that set) and rocks. Also, Sneasel has a considerable amount of reliable counters going from bulky fighting types to fairies like Mawile. Because of this I say NO BAN.

 

[Aasgier]

the suspect system is set up so that the better you play the less games you need to play to get reqs, so your logic is flawed to some degree in saying its less about skill and more about time investment. that's really only true if you're not winning as many games as you could be, the last 5 suspect tests i've played in it took me around 35 games if I had a near flawless win/loss ratio and around 45 if i lost up to 10. I've seen players play nearly 200 games in an attempt to get suspect testing requirements, this is because they're simply not good enough (objectively speaking they dont win enough games).

The idea is the good players should play less because they know what they're doing, and the less skilled players need to play more to understand the metagame.

I fully well understand this, but the current meta (tons of mons that require prediction to get around especially with the Bulky Offense I favor) combined with the fact I generally suck against facing the lower ladder. Once I have crawled up past a certain point I'll usually get a spike in which I suddenly get to improve my win-loss ratio greatly.

 

[Steakburgers]

Ok the first thing that comes to my mind when I see people saying Sneasel isn't broken is are you only saying it from your own personal view of the mon, and how you've battled against it? Or are you saying that looking at the meta as a whole? You can't say well, i've had no problems, so its not broke! No, when looking at how a mon affects the meta, you need to step back and view at how bad its effecting others as well