Metagame np: Stage 7 - Problem

[Akkeshi]

Everything in this post has probably already been said more eloquently already but here's my two cents:

Sneasel
Amazing power and very much was an underrated threat until more recently. I'm not sure if its usage has gone up due to the bans of toad and typhlosion or people just started to notice how great it is. Sneasel can employ a choice band or a life orb allowing it to hit a lot of the tier with devastating effect. It has access to great priority in the form of ice shard allowing it to cripple or OHKO common faster threats depending on the item.

252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 198-234 (68 - 80.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lilligant: 174-205 (61.9 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock - after qd speed boost

Like Weavile, Sneasel has a great STAB boosted knock off and pursuit allowing it to trap the tiers Psychic types and provide a reasonable check to the Lake Guardian duo. Also worth mentioning is SD set which I personally find to be the most threatening.

All this said, I am against banning Sneasel. Sneasel is the quintessential glass cannon and NU is not a frail tier with a shortage of tanks that can withstand/resist its attacks. Grandbull, gurdurr, garbodor, quagsire, hariyama, poliwrath, weezing and throh all either hard-wall Sneasel or can OHKO after taking hits/resisting STAB's. Sneasel is most often used as an all-out-attacker either becoming choice locked or taking damage from LO, in addition to taking 25% from every switch-in on SR, meaning that it gets worn down relatively easily. Sneasel doesn't really switch in on anything either, I don't think I need elaborate but most STAB/non-resisted moves will just OHKO. It's primary role is as an offensive lead

Sneasel provides a decent balance to the tier but is far from gamebreaking. Enough common walls in the tier can switch in and handle Sneasel consistently and either one shot it or force it out. This is why I am for no ban.


Gallade
I was a little surprised when Gallade fell from RU back in May, especially with garbage like Hitmonchan still in the tier, that said I don't really play enough RU to provide any deep insight into this, I imagine it was just outclassed by Medicham and/or wasn't quite strong enough to break the walls in the tier (most of the tier). Gallade boasts a great and far deeper movepool than Sneasel with close combat, drain punch, knock off, shadow sneak, swords dance, fire punch, psycho cut, zen headbutt, stone edge, earthquake,bulk up, ice punch, memento and plenty more. Unlike Sneasel it's a little harder to guess the item that gallade may be carrying although thus far I've seen choice scarf, lefties, lum, assault vest and life orb variants. Gallade has a base attack stat of 125 making it the (tied) third strongest physical attacker in the used tier, behind Archeops and Rhydon. Unlike Sneasel, Gallade has some notable defensive stats. 115 base special defense means you can switch in relatively comfortably on quite a lot of special attackers, barring scald users, and outspeed them. 65 base defense and 68 HP are pretty weak but Gallade can hardly be seen as a glass cannon.

With the aforementioned coverage moves I find that Gallade is a very difficult Pokemon to switch into since none of the walls that can easily wall out Sneasel can the do the same for Gallade with the exception of Granbull. Things like Mush, Xatu and Claydol can absorb Gallades STAB attacks but can do little against it offensively and will not enjoy knock offs or boosted shadow sneaks. I've seen a few defensive colbur berry Xatu's on the ladder specially to take knock offs and weakened Gallade with t-wave or air slash although this can hardly be described as a counter. The SD + Shadow Sneak set is very capable of sweeping weakened/unprepared teams, as I've come to appreciate already this suspect. With access to psycho cut things like garbodor cannot be used for chip damage with rocky helmet and Gallade can cut through the rest of your team quite easily.

252 Atk Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 200-236 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Granbull: 112-133 (29.2 - 34.7%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery - the only notable wall that can switch in on a swords dance variant and force it out.
252 Atk Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Xatu: 93-110 (27.8 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO - not a hard check since gallade either switches out or may have boosted priority shadow sneak. Although 252/252 Xatu is kinda trash for anything else.

Gallade is a Pokemon that is very difficult to play against and this is why I am pro ban. A variety of sets have the ability to beat entire teams and is perhaps just a bit too strong for the NU tier.

 

[Aladyyn]

Pawniard is a really underrated threat right now, I haven't seen anyone talk about it at all lately. It makes for a great Sneasel check on offensive teams AND also is a great partner in crime for the Ice Weasel. Pawn takes advantage of common Sneasel switchins such as Granbull, Mawile and Mega Audino, even though Poliwrath still gives it trouble. Beats Sneasel unless it has Low Kick, which I haven't seen in a long time, can still pressure Gallade with Sucker Punch and generally punches holes in teams with Iron Head flinches. Gallade's and Sneasel's combined effect on this metagame really allows this little Bish to shine.

 

[Evan.]

Sneasel is really, really frail, and gets worn down easily by the likes of Life Orb(if you're using that set) and rocks. Also, Sneasel has a considerable amount of reliable counters going from bulky fighting types to fairies like Mawile.

The thing that people need to realize about Sneasel is that its not broken because it has no counters, we all know that it has well known counters like Mawile, Poliwrath, and defensive costa, its broken because of how well it can wear down its checks and counters through its use of Knock Off + Icicle Crash. If you notice, none of these mons that switch into Sneasel have any form of recovery outside of leftovers, which means that after a little while, its extremely easy to whittle them down. Also notice that out of any of the counters that anyone has mentioned in this thread so far, the only one that isnt a gigantic momentum suck that only fits on extremely passive balance teams or just straight defensive teams, is Mawile, hence why its on like 80% of teams in this meta.

Also, I dont understand when people say that Sneasel is super frail and dies really easily, when Gallade is like 10x easier to revenge kill than Sneasel. Gallade has a ton of good offensive checks, whereas sneasel has practically none. At least gallade has a few hard counters (although again they all lose a ton of momentum except for colbur xatu) like Granbull and Xatu alongside offensive checks. Sneasel is just like, use mawile on balance or you're stuck using defensive teams in NU.

Also if "use a shell smasher" is one of the top arguments for the no ban side, then i think you guys should take a step back holE

 

[The Goomy]

Also if "use a shell smasher" is one of the top arguments for the no ban side, then i think you guys should take a step back holE

Guys I don't mean to be rude or anything (and i certainly dont mean to single u out man), but can we at least agree to make educated posts? It really doesnt help improve suspect thread discussions to have a bunch of people post their "initial thoughts" if they don't know shit about the tier and / or haven't played against one of the suspects. I swear every time a suspect thread goes up I see a ton of posts that start with something like "I don't play NU much..., never played this tier before but..., i doubt I'll get reqs but...," If you don't know what the fuck you're talking about don't post until you do, play some ladder matches, get some experience, but whatever you do: don't identify yourself as uneducated and attempt to participate in an educated discussion.

Well, I've never really played NU (Kappa)...but here I go:

So...Sneasel is really good. Not only does it have versatility in being able to run 3 sets (Band, Eviolite, LO), but it's typing is actually decent defensively and amazing offensively.
However, the main problem with Sneasel is Knock Off. It's not that Knock Off itself is broken, it's the fact that NU has two viable mons that can switch in and not lose recovery (MawDeeNo, Swalot). Everything else is crippled by losing its item, which is ridiculous in a tier where hazards are always going to be prevalent. Speaking of hazards, Sneasel can pretty easily find opportunities to come in on Xatu and forms ridiculously easy cores like Garbodor+Sneasel, as you can hazard stack, which then helps Sneasel b/c OH btw, none of its counters baring MegaAudino have reliable recovery, so they get worn down incredibly quickly when you Knock Off their Lefties as well as switching in on hazards throughout the game. If this wasn't enough, it has blistering base 115 speed, outpacing literally everything relevant in the tier other than Swellow, which it picks off with Ice Shard anyway. This forces opponents to either run dedicated defensive counters like Mawile, Mega Audino, or Poliwrath on every single team OR have to play incredibly transparently by revealing Scarfers early game as nothing outpaces it naturally (Gurdurr is somewhere in between). People who say to run a Shell Smasher are ignoring the fact that they cannot switch in on Sneasel, especially the Banded set. Also ignoring that the opponent can SD if you're switching around a lot. Finally, if your team just straight loses to a shell smasher, you may need to have better team structure. (Quagsire also exists, though it loses to pretty much all the SSers b/c that shit's also retarded). Because of the extremely limited number of switch ins to this mon, pretty much every team ends up looking exactly the fucking same. Is this a reason to ban a mon? No. But it makes the tier almost unplayable. You're a severe disadvantage if you don't chose to use Sneasel, and if you stray from the Sneasel + Sneasel Check + Gallade + Xatu + Lanturn + Grass Type formula, you're basically handicapping yourself as there literally are no innovative counters to this thing baring Larvesta. *_* This Pokemon has made NU almost unplayable, to the point where I've been playing OU more often than NU b/c there is just no room for wiggle room in the teambuilder. And it's not something you have to "Be intelligent with and play around intelligently" as Teddeh says. I don't think it's that fucking difficult to click Knock Off 4-5 times throughout the game and cripple everything OR end up killing the counter and just sweep with Sneasel anyway. Seeing this mon makes my penis go flacid. It's incredible.

Good but not broken.

 

[Punchshroom]

I know it's not only you that does this, but please do not talk about other pokemon matters such as Pawniard when we should talk about whether Gallade or Sneasel should be banned or not. Talk about that on another thread.

He's still referring to the subject matter(s) at hand, being Sneasel's influence on other mons in this meta; it's not as if he is going off-tangent about how great Lunatone is at stopping Magmortar or some other completely unrelated topics. Also don't minimod.

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What people don't realize about Sneasel's problematic qualities is that it very easily puts opposing players in a lose-lose situation, with close to no risk to itself. Notice that almost all Sneasel switch-ins have no reliable recovery, meaning that a swift Knock Off to the face takes a substantial hit to their survivability. However, that is usually the better / best case scenario for them as Sneasel can just be KOing things with it instead, given how fast and strong it is. Sure Sneasel is forced out at that moment, but from there, Sneasel can focus on just hacking away at your Sneasel responses each time they switch in, most of them (Granbull, Weezing, Garbodor, Hariyama, Regirock, Gurdurr) starting to take substantial damage from Icicle Crash at that point. And most likely, your Sneasel counters will also be busy keeping other threats at bay, and being crippled by Sneasel is definitely not going to help their chances. It's not like Sneasel is going out of its way to run lure moves to cripple its counters; Knock Off is its best attack that it can and will mindlessly spam if given the chance (which is pretty frequent given its offensive presence), and it will pretty much always be in a better position for it, regardless of the defending player's choice. Pretty much the only mons that can sustain themselves would be Recover Quagsire and Pain Split Mawile, or in the case of offensive Poliwrath isn't nearly as reliant on Leftovers to maintain its presence.

Gallade is a step up from the wallbreakers that NU has to deal with, versatility yada yada you've heard it all before let's move on

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Sawk is essentially limited to either CB or Scarf. Or as I believe Punchshroom coined, Expert Belt with Taunt to give the illusion of being Choiced and stop walls from recovering. This is because Sawk has Sturdy, meaning Life Orb is out of the question (and it never sees the light of day either in practice). Or you would have to run Mold Breaker, although it's only really useful against Weezing and Sturdy leads which are not very common. I don't have any usage statistics with me but I believe it's safe to say Sturdy is the better ability on Sawk in general.

Gallade doesn't have that problem because both of his abilities are very trivial, so he can use Life Orb effectively. Personally I would say all out attacks is the best set for two reasons. One, you can switch up moves which is huge as Gallade has excellent coverage options as well as utility moves like Shadow Sneak or Destiny Bond. Two, you keep the last slot available for something else than Swords Dance. Quite important as Close Combat, Knock Off and Zen Headbutt/Psycho Cut are all very desirable. And three, Swords Dance isn't a great set in the current meta where offensive mons are very easy to slap on a team and stop every attempt at a sweep, as Gallade is far too slow to sweep effectively unlike mons like Klinklang and Lilligant who can boost their power and speed at the same time. I was only going to give two reasons but it has to be said: Gallade is a much better wallbreaker than a sweeper, much like CB Sawk has been for so long. The fact that LO Gallade can switch up moves with a very small repercussion being a small loss of attack has made it a far better wallbreaker than said CB Sawk, who continues to rely a lot on good predictions.

 

[Marikeinen]

Before Gallade dropped and consequently caused me to use weather teams almost exclusively, I was a balance/bulky offence player. Soon, however, I realized that gallade made
playing balance nigh impossible; I HAD to run a granbull on every single team I made to handle Gallade. There are, of course, checks to it as there are to any other mon, but gallade has no safe switch-ins. Granbull is just the nearest thing to a counter that you can find to this thing, and granbull doesn't even have recovery.
Here are a few points that make me think that Gallade is broken. I've seen so many comparisons between Gallade and Sawk in this thread, that I am going to put a little sawk confirmed-mark after the point, if Sawk shares the broken quality.

• Gallade has a multitude of viable sets. Most commonly ran as an SD sweeper, Gallade has the ability to take many different approaches to the match. It's viable sets include, but are not limited to: BU ( has the ability to boost it's lower defence to make revenge killing near-impossible with just 1 mon ), Will-O-Wisp + 3 Attacks ( Has the ability to cripple it's switch -ins haha there are none, SubBU / SG BU (More bulk PLUS immunity to status? Yes please!), CBtrick/CS-Trick (Cripple those switch-ins even more, or just wreck everything with a choice band, or outspeed everything with the scarf, Assault Vest (yes it's viable and survives 2 modest hydros from samurott while maintaining it's awesome power). Gallade could also take a more defensive approach with it's large array of support moves such as Wisp, taunt or wish. Hell, I got swept by a calm mind-BU-Drain punch-Stored power set so you could try that out too.

• A way to boost it's attack / attack & defence. Yes, this is technically nothing new to NU; Sawk learns bulk up too. However, Sawk doesn't benefit from the defence boost as much, because it still has mediocre Sp. Def stat, unlike gallade who can tank a few hits on both sides of the spectrum after a single bulk up. sawk kind of confirmed but not really

• Its' typing compared to the other fighting types in NU. Here in NeverUsed we don't have that many good bulky pokemon since upper tiers steal them from us. Now, when we, again, compare Gallade to Sawk, we notice that Gallade has the additional psychic typing. I've seen arguments made that it's typing is arguably worse because it makes Gallade neutral to knock off. True as that may be, it also means that Gallade doesn't have to run Choice Band in order to 2HKO potential switch ins such as Vileplume, Weezing and Garbodor. Gallade doesn't need to predict these mons switching in, Sawk does. It's typing also means that scarfed/bulky psychic types cannot revenge kill it reliably. EDIT: I forgot to include this, but gallade's checks/counters don't usually have recovery. Sawk, however has to predict against, say, vileplume, Wrong prediction gives plume the ability to heal itself.

Wow, seems that Sawk only share's about 0.2/3 of these broken qualities. They're not similar, people.

Finally, I'd like to say that I do know that Gallade cannot run the set of gods and have everything at once. It has to choose what set it will run. By doing that it chooses its' own checks and counters, you just have to pray that you have one of those. You can't possibly prepare for all of Gallade's set with 1 mon, maybe even not with 2. Gallade is a very centralizing threat and needs to go.
I won't go into deeper detail with this one, but most of its' sets mess with stall and balance really bad, making them nigh unviable. I do know that offence has less of a problem with Gallade, but if we decide to leave it unbanned, that warps the whole tier around offence: regular and weather. Do we want a diverse metagame where all playstyles are viable, or do we want a tier where offence is the only way to win?
Oh yeah, BAN



As for Sneasel, I don't have alot to say. I really can't see it being a problem for bulkier teams, since it has a lot of good switch-ins, for example mawile, granbull, ferroseed, pelipper, regirock, phys. def miltank... When you look at that list, none of them really fit on offence. That's why I think that Sneasel is to offence what Gallade is to other playstyles: once it gets in, something dies or gets weakened alot.
Points could be made that Sneasel gets worn down really easily bc of weakness to rocks, it's reliability on band to kill threats leaving it to be setup fodderfor some big threats e.g. klinklang and barbaracle, and its' general frailty.
Because of all of this, I don't know what to think on Sneasel. Somebody with more experience on offence can enlighten me on this, since I don't (yet) have enough experience on the subject. I will have to ABSTAIN for the moment.

 

[Deej Dy]

Well, I've never really played NU (Kappa)...but here I go:

So...Sneasel is really good. Not only does it have versatility in being able to run 3 sets (Band, Eviolite, LO), but it's typing is actually decent defensively and amazing offensively.
However, the main problem with Sneasel is Knock Off. It's not that Knock Off itself is broken, it's the fact that NU has two viable mons that can switch in and not lose recovery (MawDeeNo, Swalot). Everything else is crippled by losing its item, which is ridiculous in a tier where hazards are always going to be prevalent. Speaking of hazards, Sneasel can pretty easily find opportunities to come in on Xatu and forms ridiculously easy cores like Garbodor+Sneasel, as you can hazard stack, which then helps Sneasel b/c OH btw, none of its counters baring MegaAudino have reliable recovery, so they get worn down incredibly quickly when you Knock Off their Lefties as well as switching in on hazards throughout the game. If this wasn't enough, it has blistering base 115 speed, outpacing literally everything relevant in the tier other than Swellow, which it picks off with Ice Shard anyway. This forces opponents to either run dedicated defensive counters like Mawile, Mega Audino, or Poliwrath on every single team OR have to play incredibly transparently by revealing Scarfers early game as nothing outpaces it naturally (Gurdurr is somewhere in between). People who say to run a Shell Smasher are ignoring the fact that they cannot switch in on Sneasel, especially the Banded set. Also ignoring that the opponent can SD if you're switching around a lot. Finally, if your team just straight loses to a shell smasher, you may need to have better team structure. (Quagsire also exists, though it loses to pretty much all the SSers b/c that shit's also retarded). Because of the extremely limited number of switch ins to this mon, pretty much every team ends up looking exactly the fucking same. Is this a reason to ban a mon? No. But it makes the tier almost unplayable. You're a severe disadvantage if you don't chose to use Sneasel, and if you stray from the Sneasel + Sneasel Check + Gallade + Xatu + Lanturn + Grass Type formula, you're basically handicapping yourself as there literally are no innovative counters to this thing baring Larvesta. *_* This Pokemon has made NU almost unplayable, to the point where I've been playing OU more often than NU b/c there is just no room for wiggle room in the teambuilder. And it's not something you have to "Be intelligent with and play around intelligently" as Teddeh says. I don't think it's that fucking difficult to click Knock Off 4-5 times throughout the game and cripple everything OR end up killing the counter and just sweep with Sneasel anyway. Seeing this mon makes my penis go flacid. It's incredible.

Good but not broken.

You are grossly over-exaggerating Sneasels effect on the metagame.

First off, Sneasel doesn't come in on Xatu "easily" as you imply, Xatu carries U-Turn,T-Wave, or Heatwave/Signal Beam, so in many scenarios either Xatu gets out, Paralyzes Sneasel, rendering it useless, or doing over 1/2 to Sneasel (and it has Colburr too!). Sneasel rarely has opportunities to switch into attacks unless it is the eviolite set anyway as it's bulk is tiny and because of his it is often reserved as the role of revenge killer.

Second off, teams aren't all the same as you imply, this statement seems extremely subjective.
Do you have any proof of all the teams looking the same (and only because of Sneasel)? I doubt it because there are a bunch of viable Sneasel checks/counters; I can name 10 right off the bat
(Regirock, Costa, M-Audino, Granbull, Gurdurr, Hariyama, Mawile, Quagsire, Weezing, Poliwrath) and more niche ones still.

Also if the teams all theoretically all do look the same, how can you be sure that Sneasel is the only culprit causing this when there are 20 (Klingklang, Lilligant, Sawk, Gallade,etc) other huge threats to account for? I think the problem is the meta as a whole has too many threats and people are dumping all their frustrations on Sneasel.

I'm not even completely on the Anti Ban Sneasel argument, as it is a threat to account for (just like Lilligant is), but cool it with these exaggerations, it is no Magneton or Steelix or Heliolisk. If anything this vote will be close.

Not even going to comment on Gallade again because people are still having the preposterous "Sawk vs Gallade" argument.

 

[marilli]

Oh, sneasel only has 4 counters? Well that's news to me: let's see the list of Pokemon that can reliably answer Sneasel.
Long term answers: Mega-Audino, Mawile, Granbull, Miltank, Avalugg, Monferno, Quagsire, Lickilicky (idk why you aren't using dino, lol), notice all but mawile / granbull has recovery. Granbull should be running RestTalk anyways.
Answers without reliable recovery: Regirock, Carracosta (can't block SR with Xatu vs. them, which leads to them having limited timeframe to make use of Sneasel)
Offensive switch-ins that don't suck momentum: Gurdurr, Poliwrath, Pawniard, Hariyama,
Top-tier Pokemon that will beat Sneasel 1v1: Tauros, Samurott, Kabutops, Garbodor, Kangaskhan, bulky Drain Punch Gallade, Yache Lilli, Barbaracle, Bouffalant, Malamar, Rhydon, Klinklang, Aurorus, Huntail, Gorebyss, Magmortar, Piloswine Colbur Psychics, Colbur Ghosts, etc.
This isn't even taking into consideration weather, TR, "dumb scarfers" paraspam teams, etc. that just take a huge dump on sneasel.

This shows that 1. there are defensive checks to Sneasel beyond these 3 Pokemon. It's just that you're not willing to use them for whatever reason (you think Granbull blows, you don't like the way Avalugg looks, idk) 2. Sneasel doesn't beat offense. In fact, it struggles vs. it as it cannot pursuit things, cannot OHKO vast majority of relevant offensive threats, and get OHKOed back in return.

I am in general frustrated by people trying to frame things the way it is not for their cause, and exaggerating the reality to making these look like no-brainer choices like "i don't even need to explain this, are you retarded or what?". First of all, we are all overlooking the fact that meta has changed this way not because of Sneasel, but because of Gallade. Remember when "just carry 5 mons that outspeed and OHKO magneton" was a shitty argument that isn't willing to consider the other side? Now, the metagame is literally just carry mons that outspeed and OHKO Gallade + Colbur Psychics + Mawile. And just because people feel that Gallade doesn't put enough work in this type of meta where everyone runs Gallade counterteams, doesn't mean it's not broken. What is this incredible double-standard at play here? People have thrown away teams and abandoned playstyles because of Gallade. Then why was everyone on the banwagon for Magneton, but not Gallade? Magneton was much more manageable for offense to handle, with significantly lower speed, immunities to its choiced move, etc., but I digress. Now, even in this metagame designed to be hostile to Gallade, he still gets a kill every time he's out, and offensive teams meant to OHKO Gallade in fact heavily struggles against Bulk Up Gallade with Drain Punch, which will set up and just healtank through your team. As a result of this heavy anti-Gallade metagame, Sneasel seems stronger.

Just think about this: Gallade heavily pressure most bulky team outside of few checks. Sneasel does the same to offensive teams that don't run tailwind / weather / "dumb scarfer" / few checks. Go play NU: what's more common? The latter. This is exactly because people are dreading Gallade much more than Sneasel. And don't lead that argument into "oh its because people are dumb", many good players are doing this exact same thing whether they realize it or not, and it's because unless you structurally counterteam vs. Gallade like this, it's nearly impossible to win. You guys aren't clearly doing it vs. Sneasel, which to me sounds like a very convincing reason why Sneasel isn't as broken as Gallade. If it were, then you'd leave yourself more open to Gallade to just fuck over Sneasel.

I think everyone realizes that Gallade is an extremely centralizing threat. Centralization and uncompetitive sound like, one of the more distant philosophy behind a suspect, and I've seen players say one needs no ban, but the other does, etc. But we have to understand that when a meta revolves around 1 Pokemon, it becomes extremely uncompetitive. You either use that threat, or you counterteam vs. that team archetype, which loses to just about everything else because it only aims to counterteam. This leads to a metagame where you're in an abyssmal situation starting from team preview rock-paper-scissors, and if you lost that rock-paper-scissors, there's very little ways around it. Hope that makes it clear what my stance is on Gallade.

I'm not quite convinced either way on Sneasel, I just don't like people making shit arguments that hinge on exaggeration.

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

As many of us are aware, NU is extremely stale at the moment because of how overbearing Sneasel and Gallade are, in team builder and in battle. Sure, we have switch ins to them (note I said switch ins, we have offensive checks like Fletch and scarfers not weak to ice) like Mawile, Mega Audino and Poliwrath for Sneasel and for Gallade we have fat Psychics, i.e. Uxie and Musharna as well as Granbull. Only 2 of these here have any sort of recovery outside of Wish/Moonlight, so wearing them down via hazards and knocking off leftovers isn't that hard to do, so late game Sneasel and Gallade can put some serious work or just outright sweep.

I've already made my opinion clear in the last np thread (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-stage-6-the-boys-are-back.3537418/page-10#post-6275246) about what I think about the tier and these mons, so I'm not gonna repeat anything else.

I just wanna be able to use other stuff that doesn't just make to lose to Sneasel and Gallade, and I'm sure others do too. I personally think this should also help certain people actually build teams instead of using the same few mons.

 

[jay]

I haven't played much NU before this whole Gallade and Sneasel meta but I'll still post my thoughts.

The first problem I see with Sneasel is it's ability to use many different sets such as Life Orb, Choice Band, Eviolite or even Dread Plate or black glasses.
Next is the fact that it's able to outspeed most of the tier with it's incredibly high speed stat so not much is outspeeding Sneasel other than mons with choice scarfs and it has a priortiy in the form of ice shard so it can still damage or revenge kill mons that are faster than it with ice shard. The next problem is the fact that it has access to STAB knock off, knock off is an amazing move which not only has high base power but also removes the opposing mon's item which makes it simple amazing in all ways, you lose nothing at all when going for it. Next is pursuit, Sneasel can freely come in certain mons and render them useless for the rest of the match by pursuiting them, this allows you to pair Sneasel with mons that usually lose to psychics or ghost types really easily since Sneasel can easily get rid of them. Sneasel's last move is icicle crash, there is nothing wrong with this move other than that has a 30% chance to flinch which doesn't make Sneasel any more or less broken it's just something else Sneasel has going for it. Sneasel performs well against all play styles, because like I previously stated it can either knock items off, trap mons, or revenge kill. It houses many rolls at once.

Despite all of those things Sneasel still isn't broken to any extent and it doesn't make NU completely unplayable it just forces you to run checks and or counters to the mon, personally I don't think that makes Sneasel ban worthy since most tiers have mons that require teams to prepare for it. Sneasel lacks good bulk and is weak to rocks which allows it to get worn down easily.

I see a lot of issues with Gallade tbh. The first one is its amazing STAB coverage anything that resist fighting or psychic just gets bopped by knock off so there are't many "counters" in the tier. Gallade also has a lot of different sets which are all very threatening such as Life Orb, Choice Band, Bulk Up, Lum, or AV. Everyone of these sets are great in different ways and they all are able to break most types of teams. Gallade also has high natural SpD which is amazing on an offensive mon and makes it harder to kill than the average offensive mon. I'll go over Gallade's possible moves now. Close Combat is an incredidbly powerful STAB move which dents everything that doesn't resist it or is immune to it. Psycho Cut or Zen Headbutt are both viable psychic moves zen headbutt is more damaging and has a flinch chance and psycho cut is non contacting and has a higher accuracy and crit ratio. Knock off allows Gallade to hit psychic types which rest both of its stab giving it amazing coverage. Swords Dance allows gallade's high attack to get boosted even more and kill everything in sight. Bulk Up allows gallade to sweep teams with little to no effort if they are not prepared. Shadow Sneak isn't very good but it still allows Gallade to have priority which is nice. Gallade is an amazing mon in the current meta and unlike Sneasel there aren't mons you can run to wall Gallade completely.

Even though Gallade has a lot going for it still has its flaws. For starters its speed is lackluster so a lot of mons can come and force it out. It also doesn't have a great defense stat either, its also lacking a great HP number.

So my final say is:
Sneasel: Don't Ban
Gallade: Ban

 

[BreloomMyHomie]

After playing 60+ games on the NU suspect ladder and getting reqs. I will just post my thoughts about these 2 mons. (I apologize for my wording, i suck at talking.)


Sneasel: Sneasel is probably a deadly machine, able to run multiple sets such as eviolite, dread plate(s/o to metaphysical), choice band and life orb and it can put a huge dent on hyper offense. Furthermore, being able to pursuit trap xatus so you can freely spam hazards is insane. However, against a balanced or stallish team, sneasel has trouble dealing with multiple walls such as mawile, quagsire, mega audino, monferno and granbull. Also, sneasel is weak to stealth rocks which allows it to get worn down every turn it comes in. NO BAN

Gallade: I had so many issues with this pokemon on the ladder. First of all, it has knock off which makes it an amazing coverage move, able to hit things that resist its stabs such as close combat and psycho cut. After you get up a swords dance, you pretty much can tear up balanced teams. Furthermore, it doesn't many counters. If your togetic's eviolite gets knocked off, you get 2hkoed by life orb zen headbutt. Quagsire gets 2hkoed by life orb close combat. Finally, none of us want to run rest talk granbull just to counter this monster. Ban

 

[Astounded]

Just some thoughts on Sneasel (though many people have already thought along the same lines):

The main reason I find Sneasel to be too much for this tier to handle is the combination of power and speed which puts it above anything else in NU. Sneasel is one of the most restricting Pokemon to teambuillding due to its excellent matchup versus many playstyles. The standard 4 attacks set is destructive against balance and offense, with dual stabs, this thing barely has any switch ins. Most Pokemon are frail enough (psychic/ghost). Sneasel completely skewers them by just not having any flaws.

Offense suffers from this the most since it doesn't have anything that can switch into it, but Offense doesn't usually need to switch things in, since it can always guarantee damage on anything that is powerful enough to be difficult to switch into. Balanced teams are also annoyed by it a lot, since Sneasel easily gets a ton of switch ins on certain mons and can make them useless for the rest of the match by pursuiting them. You absolutely need to run a full counter. Even stuff like mawile, regirock and carracosta doesn't cut it, since they lack reliable recovery. Any balanced team that doesn't run Mega-Audino, Avalugg, granbull or milktank (to name a few) is weak to sneasel, because these are one of the safe options, and one of the the only things that can come into it many times during a match, and this contributes to a stale metagame overrall.

It does get worn down, this is true. It is pretty vulnerable to stuff like Rocky Helmet and Iron Barbs. However, it's powerful enough to the point where it ends up getting worn down more slowly than you do whenever you face it. In practice, it almost always outlasts all of its checks that are not direct counters.

Moreover, providing bad synergy in terms of defense, it mainly gives offensive/hyper-offensive teams an advantage since you can’t expect Sneasel to be run on Stall or most Balanced teams in the first place. I honestly don’t think that something like this should remain in the NU metagame.

Ban

Will share my thoughts regarding Gallade within the upcoming days.

 

[zbr]

We've had Sneasel for so long. Honestly, after playing with and against it for quite some time, I don't honestly see Sneasel as a problem to the state of the metagame compared to something like Gallade. The problem here is having both of them in the tier simultaneously. (much like Rupt Typh back then). It is decently healthy for a metagame to have a threat that takes foreplanning as well as skill to use, a threat which has some commonly used counters. Couple that with a weakness to rocks, weakness to priority from mons like gurrdurr, wrath, yama and several other decently good mons, and that gives us Sneasel. It does have strong spammable dual STABs but with it's paper thin defenses, I don't see it as strong threat alone but rather it's a huge threat when coupled with a partner like *ahem* Gallade.

Now let us analyse Gallade. It is has amazing dual STABs that helps it does what it wants to do. Psychic STAB fucks up common fight spam switch ins and it has a lot of options under it's sleeves. Scarf sets help to decimate offense with the ability to help cripple stall with access to Trick/Memento. LO SD/Band sets completely destroy stall/balanced based teams. AV sets help to be just strong all around because of it's above average spdef set, it doesn't need a lot of investment to reach a good enough spread to take on the metagame atm. The biggest poison of them imo is Sub BU sets. I've been using all these sets and Sub BU just stands out. Sub BU (or if you used Holly's team it would be safeguard BU) is extremely potent because it has enough SpDef to take on hits (other than SE moves) and with Sub to block out statuses and BU to bump up the Def, it just becomes such a huge threat because it often takes more than 1 hit to break the sub and by then the momentum would entirely be in the Sub BU player's favor. That and couple the fact that it gets access to support moves like WOW, Sneak, TWave, Memento, Destiny Bond and even Hypnosis, it makes Gallade a much more flexible and powerful threat than Sneasel. I believe if Gallade wasn't in the picture, Sneasel would be completely manageable. I'll sum up my exact thoughts in a later post but for now. Gallade out and Sneasel stays.

 

[Astounded]

Thoughts on Gallade:

Gallade makes the metagame worse. As it currently stands, I do not believe it is broken outright. However, I believe it is powerful and versatile enough that, there is very little downside to using it, and even against an opposing team with "counters and checks," it will usually net more than one pokemon's worth in value and potentially much more, and its existence forces you to prepare for it in such a way that the metagame has become coinflip-esque: if you prepare hard for it and they don't bring it, you're screwed, and if you only pack a soft check or two and they bring it, you're screwed. That, in my opinion, is not a good metagame.

Gallade is widely considered to be the most powerful Pokemon in the metagame. And Gallade's presence in the metagame is just going to make Sneasel even harder to deal with. Simply put, it is the perfect partner for Gallade. Just look at the Pokemon Sneasel struggles against : Avalugg, Miltank, mawile and quagsire (to name a few). Now, what beats all these mons? Gallade! Gallade is just the perfect partner to Sneasel, it handles all the bulky Normal, water and Ice types that cause it trouble. Gallade makes so many of Sneasel's checks a liability that it will just be harder to harder to deal with.

In summary, Gallade's effect on the current metagame is pretty negative. Since, We are in pursuit of a better metagame, I will vote Ban.

 

[Level 56]

Here's my thoughts on the two suspects:

So while getting reqs, I didn't face many problems dealing with Sneasel. I was using Mega-Audino on the team I got reqs with, and Sneasel wasn't able to do anything against it. Along with Mega-Audino, it is checked by some other bulky mons such as Granbull, Regirock, mawile etc. It's weakness to SR is very annoying and it also struggles against priority moves. The only problem I faced when facing it, was pursuit. Basically, the reason why it is great in the current metagame, is how greatly it pressures offensive teams thanks to its blistering speed + great STAB moves and Knock Off spam is just great. Its faster than nearly everything (unless scarfed) and can mindlessly spam Knock Off, and with the combination of Dark and Ice STAB moves, it becomes even more threatening. Though, I don't think Sneasel is ban worthy because its relatively predictable and there are some great bulky stuff in the tier that can check it.

This is the guy which made reqs fun for me. Gallade has a negative affect on team building as it is blessed with sheer power + nice solid special bulk + immense movepool and strong STAB moves. Although, it has 80 base speed, which is the reason why it struggles against offensive teams. But that is not the problem, the problem is how great it functions against stall and balance teams. It can run many different sets and all of them are extremely effective. It has access to Knock Off as well, by which it can take care of bulky psychic type mons, which otherwise can easily deal with Gallade. It's Sub + Bulk up set is so threatening, that it can pretty much tear apart stall teams by itself, if it's check is eliminated or if it finds a set up opportunity.

Conclusion:
Overall, Gallade is the real problem here and it is the reason why Sneasel is getting more problematic. If we want this metagame to get better, then Gallade needs to get banned.

 

[El Coqui]

I have yet to get my reqs but I figure I give my initial opinions

Sneasel is definitely an interesting threat in this tier, sporting the second highest base speed (10 below Swellow) and having the strongest STAB Knock-Off, if I am correct. While I agree with some people's thoughts that because of Knock Off it can break mainly of its defensive counters, let's also remember for the most part the tier has gone through several suspect tests recently and the meta is still trying to readjust. There are counters out there that can handle Sneasel, many of which others before me have already stated, plus you have to remember that Sneasel has a rocks-weakness, priority weakness (almost as bad as Aurorus), and, while it may cripple some of its counters, it simply can't beat them out. High Attack + Speed, Strong STAB + Priority STAB . . . is this strong? Yes, but not to a point in which Sneasel is omnipotent.
No Ban

Gallade, as many have stated, is slightly more difficult to examine because of its versatility. It can be: a set-up mon (Bulk-Up or SD), wallbreaker (Banded), revenge killer (Scarfed), mono-attacking (Assault Vest), or utility-mon (Lefties). Even when it dropped I had to admit that Gallade was just one of those mons too good for the tier. In fact, the sudden descent of Gallade has lead to an ascension of Sneasel (and other notable mons). Normally, I would think this a good thing because lately the tier has been too held back by constant suspect tests; however, Gallade is simply causing a centralization issue where teams are being built around or against it, much like when Mega-Steelix was in the tier. Few things counter/check it and fewer players can really handle it once it is out on the field because of not knowing what set it may be. I love the mon and I've enjoyed using it in the tier, but of the two being tested this one is the issue.
Ban

 

[Cheryl.]

I've tested the two suspects out and here are my results.

Sneasel is a very big threat thanks to it's deadly STAB combination, spamming of Knock Off, and it's great speed which helps it keep threats like Archeops in check. (Unless Scarf Archeops lol.) It is very powerful with a Band or Life Orb equipped, and it also has a Swords Dance set which helps it sweep thanks to decent bulk with Eviolite. It also has Ice Shard to pick off weakened threats or Swellow, the only relevant mon faster than it without a Scarf. Problems with Sneasel are bad bulk without Eviolite, Stealth Rock weakness which limits it switching in during a match, and there are checks to it, like Gurdurr, who can force it out thanks to Sneasel's 4x Mach Punch weakness. While it has a lot of strong points that make it powerful, it isn't as bad as I thought it out to be. No Ban

Gallade is probably the most versatile mon in the tier right now, and it's probably the reason why it might be banned. It can run a Bulk Up/SD set, Band, Scarf, Assault Vest, or even make use of it's wide array of utility moves like Destiny Bond and Memento. It's very hard to counter because you have to know the set it's running. Gallade could also be one of the reasons Sneasel is so good right now too, as Sneasel can outpace non-Scarf sets and revenge kill it with Knock Off. Really, the only reason Gallade is in the tier is because of a error on Showdown, so it really shouldn't be in the tier at all. But it's reached us a new thing: Gallade is kind of broken in NU and this is more of the problem than Sneasel. Sorry Gallade, I love you and you're really good, but you're too good for NU. Ban

 

[Sweet Jesus]

NU definately has a problem on the physical side right now as I can't even think of a single physical wall that isn't completely wrecked by 4 or 5 very common physical attackers no matter how bad the wall is offensively, no set up, hazards or even a choice band involved (bar maybe mega dino who's lack of lefties make it hard to handle switching chenanigans and hazards)! For comparaison check how hard alomomola, mandibuzz, musharna and weezing were to wallbreak last gen (I'm not saying we gotta try to make this gen last gen, just comparing to what a balanced meta looked like). Effective defensive cores pratically don't exist right now as there is just too much variety in physical attackers and NU mons in general are terribad at taking the omnipresent knock off. Just to show evidence of my point, one of our top physical walls right now is among the best simply because he brings down his opponent with him (garbo) and that's just not walling is about.

Sneasel itself isn't that hard to counter I mean I've been using the banded set a lot lately and never has it had a chance to sweep freely even mid game but it still brings a STAB combination coupled with an incredible speed that's just too original for NU to handle. Seriously, practically everything else in NU that carries knock off is a fighting type or a very weak wall (bar liepard and malamar but malamar has similar coverage and liepard practically doesn't have any coverage). Now fighting and ice is a great combination of attacks itself which just shows how impossible it is to simultaneously wall sneasel and fighting types with a single mon that isn't granbull and arguably mega dino. Carrying 2 mons to take knock offs simply sucks and kills the meta's diversity forcing you to either go full offense, or rely a whole fucking lot on team match up. The thing is you actually have to bring at least one mon specificly designed to wall sneasel on every team because of it's speed and the power of it's knock off. The simple fact knock off is that painful to handle in this tier is enough to make me vote BAN on it's strongest user who happens to also be blazing fast and have a great secondary stab that doesn't even make contact.

As for gallade, I don't have much to say as I haven't tried him myself and only met a handfull but keeping in mind what I said in the first paragraph, I really wouldn't mind seeing him BANNED as well. He too has incredible coverage and I feel we just need to drop the number of amazing knock off users in the tier as that move is just unhealthy with a single mega at our disposition (which happens to be pretty mediocre at countering gallade). Gallade is just another mon that has such a good coverage he kills practically any common wall that isn't granbull or a grass type (and grass walls just suck hard right now with archeops, sneasel, scyther, swellow, pinsir, fletchinder and garbodor all seeing average to high usage).

To me these 2 mons themselves are just part of a much bigger problem but banning them both is getting us one step closer to having a meta that's actually balanced

 

[Raseri]

I'm a little surprised that the general consensus now seems to be to ban Gallade and to not ban Sneasel, from a teambuilding perspective it makes some sense, Gallade is impossible to counter, while Sneasel does have a few Pokemon that do counter it. But in terms of their effect on matches, I think Sneasel is far more broken than Gallade, personally I don't think Gallade is broken at all.

The main thing that makes Gallade not broken from my perspective is how easy it is to take advantage of in actual matches, its Psychic-typing does it much more harm than good, as it is now neutral to Knock Off (which means it can be revenged by Sneasel easily), while the resists it picks up really dont help it that much, as fighting moves are almost always paired with Knock Off. However, Gallade does do a lot of damage vs slower teams, but its wallbreaking ability really isn't that much better than the other top NU wallbreakers, hell a lot of the time I prefer Sawk because Sturdy is just that good.

Sneasel is something that from my perspective is really cut and dry, it requires little prediction to use, as most of the time you can just come in and click Knock Off. The main argument that I see people using to justify not banning it is the list of counters, such as Mega Audino, defensive Mawile, and Poliwrath. Yes, these are as close to counters as we are going to get, but they all have one thing in common, which is that they only really work on defensive teams, and they are all huge momentum saps except for Mawile due to Baton Pass. Sneasel is almost impossible to offensively check, without random HP Fighting Choice Scarf Pokemon, Sneasel really makes offense hard to pull off. I would say that Sneasel's ability to limit Offense surpasses Gallade's ability to limit balance and stall, as there are at least some reliable answers to Gallade that can exist on bulky teams.

The opportunity cost of Knock Off is something else that I think pushes Sneasel over the edge, if it comes in on a slower threat, the opponent is put into a lose/lose situation, where they are forced to choose what is crippled, and due to Sneasel being the 2nd fastest viable Pokemon, that situation comes up very often, which is what sets it apart from Gallade.


One other thing I've seen people bring up is that since Sneasel has been around for awhile and Gallade is new, it must be Gallade that is the problem. That just simply isn't true, Sneasel is something that has improved with every metagame shift, and was on the councils radar before Gallade dropped. So please don't go into voting thinking Gallade is the problem because it is the newer Pokemon. There are many valid arguments to not banning Sneasel, but that is not one of them.

So right now I am leaning towards banning Sneasel due to its incredible matchup vs offensive playstyles, while still having ways to contribute vs other archetypes, and leaning towards not banning Gallade due to its less gamebreaking matchups, and being much easier to handle in game due to its poor defensive typing, poor speed, and lackluster bulk.

 

[Punchshroom]

The main thing that makes Gallade not broken from my perspective is how easy it is to take advantage of in actual matches, its Psychic-typing does it much more harm than good, as it is now neutral to Knock Off (which means it can be revenged by Sneasel easily), while the resists it picks up really dont help it that much, as fighting moves are almost always paired with Knock Off. However, Gallade does do a lot of damage vs slower teams, but its wallbreaking ability really isn't that much better than the other top NU wallbreakers, hell a lot of the time I prefer Sawk because Sturdy is just that good.

I believe it is unfair to say that Gallade's neutrality to Knock Off (aka essentially Sneasel) holds it back when Sawk doesn't exactly eat up Icicle Crashes, and ignore the fact that Gallade's neutrality to Psychic makes it noticeably harder to check with the bulky Psychic mons than they can with Sawk. It has been stated numerous times that between Gallade's immense Attack, 120 BP STAB attack, usable Speed, access to a +2 boosting move, and perfect neutral coverage to top it off, that Gallade is indeed a step up from the wallbreakers NU has had to face; Gallade certainly doesn't have to boost to punch holes in cores (like Sawk), but the fact that it can (unlike Sawk) only makes it much more of a threat. With Garbodor still at large, I don't feel that Sturdy is an advantage Sawk can maintain on a consistent basis, even with anti-hazard support.

I would say that Sneasel's ability to limit Offense surpasses Gallade's ability to limit balance and stall, as there are at least some reliable answers to Gallade that can exist on bulky teams.

Gallade still has untapped potential that I feel would only yield more issues for the meta: Bulk Up Gallade, be it SubBU or offensive BU, already circumvents some of the weaknesses the standard SD Gallade has (being revenged nowhere near as easily, as it can now survive Knock Offs and actually make use of Justified), and then the Scarf set doesn't only have Trick to cripple foes; it even can make use of Memento or Destiny Bond to surprise the unsuspecting masses. And even when it has these sets to improve its matchup against offense, it doesn't lose much of its potency against balance or stall (mostly balance); in fact, Gallade seems almost tailormade to mess with balance no matter what it does, due to its immense power, perfect neutral coverage, and above all numerous disruptive options.

 

[Vileman]

Now that ive got reqs i feel like ive gotten a tase of the current meta, and i wanna say what i think of both suspects. Sorry if i repeat too much stuff said previously, ill try my best to bring up crucial points about both suspects that i think shouldn't be overlooked.
Gallade: Im personally leading towards ban, it sets appart from sawk as it has a way better special bulk which in game is noticable, as it can just win 1v1 vs most of the special attackers on the tier as a life orb close combat just nukes them and they arent really ohkoing gallade most of the time.
The psychic type is actually a blessing in my opinion, sure it doesnt resits knock off but its now not weak to psychic meaning that a sub sd set will win vs fat psychic mons (those usually run drain punch and knock off) as it can actually eat up psychics and hit hard back. i dont get how many people say "oh sawk has sturdy" but in good matches, its really not that hard to keep hazards on the opponent side to break up the sturdy, while gallade has that natural special bulk that as i said, lets him win vs special attackers.
His movepoll is also amazing, his stabs are already good enough to hit everything so a life orb set can get at minimum a kill per game after getting in via u-turn or a double switch, that set alone gives many teams a lot of trouble, but it can also run other kind of sets with trick will o wisp safeguard (lol hollywood :3) bulk up sub.. etc.
So yeah gallade has really good sheer power, cool movepool with many viable sets, nice bulk, and i think its too much for the metagame.

Sneasel: I honestly dont know how i feel with sneasel as when i use it it really isnt a brainless killing machine as they make it up to be, without a choice band that base 95 attack isnt that scary and when its locked you can just play around it, its also really frail and sr weak which gives it a hard time to switch into anything that isnt a weak resisted attack, and sure knock off cripples his counters but its not able to switch in back and forth easily, even less if sr is up so idk. But it does has an amazing speed which lets it do solid work late game vs teams weakened by hazards and stuff so his late game cleaning ability is pretty much unmatched as it only needs his stabs and has priority too.
At the moment i think im voting no ban.

 

[YouDon'tKnowMe]

Just want to throw out my initial thoughts:

Sneasel
I honestly did not expect Sneasel to get suspected. I play balance most of the time and I always had 1-2 checks/counters on my team to handle it. It is also weak to rocks and effected by spikes and tspikes, as well as being worn down by the common life orb. However, it is strong, has the ever-so-problematic knock off, amazing speed, and reliable priority, which allows it to destroy offensive almost. Many of the things that switch in, (except obscure counters like Poliwrath, or the only mega in the tier Audino), really rely on their item (eviolite/leftovers) to consistently switch in to Sneasel, and offense teams will almost always have to sack something to revenge kill Sneasel; if rocks are not up, Sneasel can just switch out and wreak havoc later. I am on the fence on this one because Sneasel does great against offense, but balance and defense can easily handle it when played properly. I am no ban as of now, but this could change.

Gallade
On the other hand, I did expect Gallade to be tested just cause it recently dropped from RU. It does not have too many good resistances, and unlike sneasel it is not too fast for an offensive pokemon. Gallade is like the opposite of Sneasel; it somewhat struggles against offense but thrives against balance/defense if given a set up opportunity, which with its amazing special bulk can come by pretty easily. If only Gallade got mach punch... But what makes me, as of now, want Gallade gone is its amazing versatility. It has a great movepool, access to both boosting moves it needs (SD, bulk up), and can go full out offensive or bulky. It's attack is also, obviously, insane, on par with the likes of Sawk. But unlike Sawk, Gallade has much better special bulk, a better movepool (SD), and secondary STAB. Sp def investment allows Gallade to set up on things like defensive Lanturn (0 SpA Lanturn Scald vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Gallade: 48-57 (14.1 - 16.7%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery). I think Gallade should go.

 

[Disjunction]

A big point on Sneasel I think a lot of people are glossing over are its lack of offensive checks. Sneasel does poorly against bulkier, defensive teams, which I'm sure a lot of you are running. This is probably the reason a lot of you hate Gallade, too! Gallade tears apart slower, bulkier teams because it doesn't need to rely a lot on its speed and can dismantle cores with no Granbull/Colbur Mush/whatever. However, similar to Sneasel in this regard, Gallade does poorly against frailer, offensive teams. This is Sneasel's domain. Offensive teams have about as many reliable checks to Sneasel as defensive teams do to Gallade. A solid OFFENSIVE check to Sneasel is one that can repeatedly switch into Sneasel's Knock Offs without draining your team's momentum or offensive. Of our current NU tier list, we have Pawniard, Gurdurr, and Mawile. Anything else takes wayy too much from Knock Off/Crash to be able to switch in enough. And what makes this crazy is that I'm discussing SWITCH INS on OFFENSIVE TEAMS. Offensive teams should not have to discuss switching into a threat, but Sneasel is a necessity. You can't just double into Sneasel on offense because Sneasel out runs everything aside from the stray Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave (having to run these on every offensive team isn't healthy!) Fake Out spam doesn't even work because of Inner Focus.

I understand a lot of you may be Balance players with a focus on defensive cores (that's fine! the majority of NU is, honestly), but for players such as myself who play balance focused on offensive cores, or even hyper offensive players, Sneasel has been an increasingly huge thorn in our sides for a while. There are different types of players who rely on beating threats through different methods. Players who rely on pivoting into specific offensive threats are forced to run one of the few offensive Sneasel checks that exist in the tier, much in the same way defensive players who rely on solid switch ins are forced into running one of the few Gallade counters in the tier.

This suspect is hardly a garden variety suspect, and I would hope those of you who put in the effort to get reqs really do your reading and some deep thinking about the overall nature of the metagame before you cast that important vote. There's more than one type of team out there and specific Pokemon may threaten someone else more than they do you!

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

If your reasoning for Sneasel not getting banned is because I have 2 switch ins to it, just think for a second. If you're having to dedicate 2 pokemon, usually defensive, for one mon, don't you think that says a lot about how Sneasel is affecting the metagame and how incredibly powerful it is? Who cares if its frail or a glass cannon? You bring it in, click Knock Off, start whittling, switch out, repeat. Honestly, it's only downside is its defensive typing, but who cares about that? This mon doesn't take hits unless forced to and with an evio, it can take a couple uninvested hits.

Gallade is vice versa to Sneasel, does well against the fat mons, but not so good against faster, offensive teams. I'm a stall player so ya know, I hate this thing.