np: SUMO UU Stage 1 - Feels Like We Only Go Backwards

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Since it seems like theres not too much discussion against victini ban, I was thinking about topic of what to un-ban suspect next, and I guess now is as good a time as any, but what are thoughts on doing complex bans of Z-crystals + certain mon to urban the otherwise not broken mon?

the one currently on my mind would be gyarados, as without z sky strike its really not that broken imo. compared with last gen, threats like raikou and quag i think being back in UU provide it with more checks than before, as well as bisharp kinda if u run intimidate. scizor is setup fodder most of the time but still.

Based on the above UU banlist, only gyarados really seems unbannable to me, other than possibly changing the drizzle ban to a more complex one but thats just me trying to make this post longer lol so ya!
 
Since it seems like theres not too much discussion against victini ban, I was thinking about topic of what to un-ban suspect next, and I guess now is as good a time as any, but what are thoughts on doing complex bans of Z-crystals + certain mon to urban the otherwise not broken mon?

the one currently on my mind would be gyarados, as without z sky strike its really not that broken imo. compared with last gen, threats like raikou and quag i think being back in UU provide it with more checks than before, as well as bisharp kinda if u run intimidate. scizor is setup fodder most of the time but still.

Based on the above UU banlist, only gyarados really seems unbannable to me, other than possibly changing the drizzle ban to a more complex one but thats just me trying to make this post longer lol so ya!
Personally I think Primarina is worth looking into. The way I view Primarina, and maybe I'm wrong for viewing it this way, is that it's sort of like a Nido that can't set hazards and that works best when it's having to lock itself into Choice moves. Like a Nido, it has a lot of firepower and a great movepool to take advantage of said movepool. The cost is, of course, that it is slow. I know its typing is great offensively, but it's not like it has BoltBeam plus Flamethrower coverage like the Nidos do (to say nothing of how great Poison-Ground is offensively).
 
Personally I think Primarina is worth looking into. The way I view Primarina, and maybe I'm wrong for viewing it this way, is that it's sort of like a Nido that can't set hazards and that works best when it's having to lock itself into Choice moves. Like a Nido, it has a lot of firepower and a great movepool to take advantage of said movepool. The cost is, of course, that it is slow. I know its typing is great offensively, but it's not like it has BoltBeam plus Flamethrower coverage like the Nidos do (to say nothing of how great Poison-Ground is offensively).
I really don't think Primarina is worth looking at for a suspect. Sure, it's incredibly strong and there are few safe switch ins beyond like Empoleon, but as we've seen in cases like the Hydreigon suspect, that doesn't mean it's broken necessarily. It's incredibly easy to revenge kill due to its low speed and poor physical bulk. Additionally, it gets worn down quite easily with hazards and any hits it has to take as it switches into weaker special attacks. I'd say the closest comparison to Primarina would be Banded Crawdaunt: both are incredibly strong with minimal safe switch-ins, but they are ultimately manageable and not broken because of their low speed and difficulty switching in. Primarina is definitely a premier threat in this metagame, but I personally don't think it is worthy of a suspect at all.
 
I
I really don't think Primarina is worth looking at for a suspect. Sure, it's incredibly strong and there are few safe switch ins beyond like Empoleon, but as we've seen in cases like the Hydreigon suspect, that doesn't mean it's broken necessarily. It's incredibly easy to revenge kill due to its low speed and poor physical bulk. Additionally, it gets worn down quite easily with hazards and any hits it has to take as it switches into weaker special attacks. I'd say the closest comparison to Primarina would be Banded Crawdaunt: both are incredibly strong with minimal safe switch-ins, but they are ultimately manageable and not broken because of their low speed and difficulty switching in. Primarina is definitely a premier threat in this metagame, but I personally don't think it is worthy of a suspect at all.
Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I meant it as something to bring back down from the BL and make UU again. Hence why I was comparing it to the Nidos. I agree with all of your points because I want to see it back in UU and think it would work well in this meta.
 
I

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I meant it as something to bring back down from the BL and make UU again. Hence why I was comparing it to the Nidos. I agree with all of your points because I want to see it back in UU and think it would work well in this meta.
Primarina was always UU by usage, this post makes no sense.
 
I

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I meant it as something to bring back down from the BL and make UU again. Hence why I was comparing it to the Nidos. I agree with all of your points because I want to see it back in UU and think it would work well in this meta.
I think you're misunderstanding something here. Primarina is not in BL, it was just being voted on because a member of the Council nominated it. It is still allowed in UU. I know that Showdown's teambuilder says it is banned, but it does so for a lot of Pokemon. Don't worry, it's not. Use the legality checker in the teambuilder, and you will notice that it will tell you that teams with Primarina on them are completely fine.
 
I've been running a fair bit of Victini recently as I've managed to creep out of my stall comfort zone because Victini is just so incredibly difficult to deal with and I wanted to wait for it to get banned before I go back to a team of annoying fat mons.

I have been mostly having fun with a TR set that I got from Cynde, and holy shit does it do work:

Victini @ Charcoal
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- Zen Headbutt
- Trick Room

This set has emphasizes greatly how much bulk Victini has, surviving common super-effective hits to set-up TR, how strong it can hit when it has an attack-boosting nature, and just how versatile this little shit is. In fact, because most teams are expecting you to be faster you often force things out that would have otherwise could have outsped and dented you because of the threat of this mon, allowing you to get up free TR.
Against stall teams it has enough power with Brave nature and Charcoal to dent a plethora of mons whilst still being able to switch moves. Against offensive teams V-Create just keeps making Victini faster and clean everything up easily.

One of the most important things about this set though is it makes it incredibly hard for Victini to get Pursuit trapped, which seems to be a lot of teams way of dealing with Victini. Once it is under TR, it can just stay in and destroy most Pokemon that would have used pursuit, such as M-Aero, Bisharp, Krook and Scizor, who are all slower because of their speed invest, allowing it to continue its slaughterfest rather unhindered because the speed "drops" just don't matter. It really just pick and choose its answers so damn well.

It's ability to effectively run so many different sets makes it an incredible threat. It does too many things well, with such an amazing movepool and nice stats all around, a lot of which have already been listed.
I'd really hope to see the victory rat return to BL where it belongs soon.
 
I've been running a fair bit of Victini recently as I've managed to creep out of my stall comfort zone because Victini is just so incredibly difficult to deal with and I wanted to wait for it to get banned before I go back to a team of annoying fat mons.

I have been mostly having fun with a TR set that I got from Cynde, and holy shit does it do work:

Victini @ Charcoal
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- Zen Headbutt
- Trick Room

This set has emphasizes greatly how much bulk Victini has, surviving common super-effective hits to set-up TR, how strong it can hit when it has an attack-boosting nature, and just how versatile this little shit is. In fact, because most teams are expecting you to be faster you often force things out that would have otherwise could have outsped and dented you because of the threat of this mon, allowing you to get up free TR.
Against stall teams it has enough power with Brave nature and Charcoal to dent a plethora of mons whilst still being able to switch moves. Against offensive teams V-Create just keeps making Victini faster and clean everything up easily.

One of the most important things about this set though is it makes it incredibly hard for Victini to get Pursuit trapped, which seems to be a lot of teams way of dealing with Victini. Once it is under TR, it can just stay in and destroy most Pokemon that would have used pursuit, such as M-Aero, Bisharp, Krook and Scizor, who are all slower because of their speed invest, allowing it to continue its slaughterfest rather unhindered because the speed "drops" just don't matter. It really just pick and choose its answers so damn well.

It's ability to effectively run so many different sets makes it an incredible threat. It does too many things well, with such an amazing movepool and nice stats all around, a lot of which have already been listed.
I'd really hope to see the victory rat return to BL where it belongs soon.
I know Kitten Milk used to run tr tini a lot back in xy, but the set he used was slightly different - I believe it was with Thunder and Grass Knot as coverage moves and holding a weakness policy - you trade a little bit of extra V-create damage for the ability to set up a clean sweep on shit like Aero's Stone Edge - a mixed tini with +2 +2 is fucking impossible to switch into.
 

Killintime

Time not so well spent
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
Yo Yo YOoooooo, okay enough with the obnoxious salutations I am here to drop my 2 cents on the flying V.

With the introduction of Clefable and Victini suspect at the same time I could already tell where this shit was going. Victini on its own is a mon capable of shredding its own answers thanks to the sheer power of V-create coupled with U-turn without the help of team mates..... in fact due to this pokemons sheer versatility in sets as my good friend CoolStoryBrobat lines out about the only "consistent" method to beating victini is praying to god you don't get predicted when attempting to Pursuit trap it after its murdered somethings family. This is quite a problem mostly because you usually have to sack like 1-2 mons getting rid of this thing meaning pokemon that the victini was paired with in the first place (usually meant to check those partners as well) like a clefable has now found some great breathing room (not like it isn't already capable of doing that on its own zzzzz). Basically what I am trying to say here is that it offers incredible synergy with almost every A rank mon and above in UU. If scarf was Victinis only set it would honestly be manageable, sadly this is not the case of discount darmanitan and it comes built in with incredible bulk, anti-meta typing, and stupidly good physical and special movepool allowing it to check mons like Cobalion, Scizor, Alakazam, Latias, etc. soooo if you don't know what I am voting idk what to say.

On the last vote with Clefable I decided to abstain as I wanted to see what people could do with the mon, maybe attempt to adapt or something along those lines.... After watching the meta develop more all I can say is... This fat pink bastard is incredibly centralising and effective in performing its roles. However I am of the "lets watch and see first" mentality so I still stand by my last vote (apologies to my friends), hopefully the council takes a look at this mon in the future and either quick bans or at least suspects this thing....

Hope you all have an incredible week~~~
 
Primarina doesn't seem ban worthy at all to me. Despite its awesome typing and fairly strong power, 60 speed is terribly slow. It also doesn't have the physical bulk to reliably stop itself from getting revenge killed, meaning a ton of shit is going to come in after you've clicked your choice move and either force you out or outright ko you. And yeah, if it wasn't implied, it's rocking choice specs, meaning you most likely have to play it fairly well to get maximum results, and even then, like I said, you're probably getting at most 1 kill from your nukes against bo / straight offense, and stall will be running bliss anyways. Strong threat with very limited switchins, but sorry this chica isn't broken.
 

Sacri'

a wish for peace
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I've thought about Victini a lot over the past few days and I believe I've finally managed to make my mind up. I personally haven't had an opinion as sturdy as some of the other people who have voiced their opinions regarding Victini, I clearly knew what it was able to do but it seems like using really offensive teams blurred my view on the actual problems it brought in this metagame. There are a lot of fast threats running around which made the problematic variants of Victini a bit more manageable to play around. However, the wide range of sets that Victini can run makes it way too hard to predict for a massive amount of teams, most if not all of it's usual defensive switchins get basically destroyed by mixed/banded variants so finding out it's set is crucial in order to figure out what it runs, and it unfortunately ends up costing a pokemon in the process which this is truly the aspect that makes Victini unhealthy in this metagame. It also has an important amount of opportunities to come in throughout games thanks to the high usage of Cobalion, Clefable and so on and so forth. Despite it's SR weakness it's great bulk lets it live hits from an importants amount of things which gives it a lot of hits and that's absolutely great for something as powerful as Victini. It's also quite splashable overall, you can adapt the set it runs to your teams needs which is also a huge selling point and very few pokémons can do such a thing in this metagame. Even though Victini being in UU somewhat mitigates Clefable's impact it's simply too unpredictable and dangerous to be allowed to stay. I'll vote ban.
 
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Bouff

welcome to the party
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i guess i should stop being lazy and post too lol

i was a little iffy at first since victinis defensive typing leaves something to be desired in some aspects, mainly the rocks / suit weakness, and the tier having a decent number of checks (at least more than oras), but after playing a bit more matches with it over the past two days, i'll be voting ban as well. i really think the major contributing factor to its unhealthiness here is its cb set as opposed to the other sets it can run though. while it does have a big amount of tools that it can use to break through teams...its fucking band vcreate lol. offensive teams have pretty pitiful switchins to v-create aside from pert and like..volcanion? there are other things that can switch in once but tini just switches after anyways and if it comes in safely (not a hard thing to do) then you are fucked lol. there are pokemon that will always "do something" in a game but tini just takes that to such a stupid degree where you are getting at least 1 kill against most teams in the meta with little repurcussions aside from pursuit. im not going to rehash anything that the others have said but yeah thats my thoughts.
 

Amaroq

Beasts all over the shop...
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Everything I've wanted to say about stuff like Clefable and Victini has already been said, but I just wanted to let you guys know that Bewear and Nidoking are pretty cool Pokemon!


Bewear @ Choice Band
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Hammer Arm
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake

I'll confess, I thought Bewear was going to be garbage when I started using it... but this thing has turned out to be pretty decent. Bewear's surprisingly bulky on the physical side, thanks to Fluffy, and hits really hard off of a base 125 Attack stat coupled with solid STAB and coverage options. I actually like using Ice Punch + Earthquake over Shadow Claw and Facade since Ice Punch and Earthquake hit every relevant Ghost-type harder than Shadow Claw (Earthquake hits Gengar, Chandelure, and Doublade super effectively, while Ice Punch covers Decidueye). That said, if you really want to punish something that wants to toss out a Will-O-Wisp or Toxic, Facade is a fine option as well. Run it with Shadow Claw, since Shadow Claw covers every Ghost-type in one slot, even if Earthquake and Ice Punch hit specific Ghost-types harder.

Fluffy is an interesting ability that lets it check a lot of prominent attackers in the current meta, like Scizor, Bisharp, and Mega Absol. It can even survive a hit from Pokemon that hit it super effectively with their STAB moves, like Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Sharpedo, and KO back with the appropriate move. The weakness to Fire-type attacks is unfortunate, so pair it up with something that appreciates its ability to check common physical attackers and can take on Fire-types.


Nidoking @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Sludge Wave

People are sleeping on Nidoking and Nidoqueen a bit right now. These Pokemon can take advantage of the dominance of Fairy-types and Steel-types in the meta right now and have the power and coverage to be serious threats. Nidoking in particular also has a nice speed tier that lets it outspeed Pokemon like Togekiss and a lot of the stuff that floats around the positive-natured base 70 speed tier (Nidoqueen can outspeed most of the same things, but must run a Timid nature, which negates its major advantages over Nidoking).

Earth Power and Sludge Wave are the obligatory STAB moves, but every other moveslot is pretty flexible. I ran Stealth Rock on the team I used Nidoking on because I couldn't fit it on anything else, but Fire Blast/Flamethrower, Ice Beam, Superpower, Thunderbolt, Focus Blast, and Taunt are all viable options. Fire coverage hits Pokemon like Klefki and Scizor, Ice Beam makes it harder for Gliscor to come in on Nidoking, Thunderbolt deals more damage to bulky Water-types than Earth Power or Sludge Wave, Superpower and Focus Blast both hit Blissey (Superpower is more accurate, while Focus Blast doesn't require Nidoking to run a Hasty or Naive nature to get the most out of it), and Taunt assists Nidoking in breaking down bulkier teams by preventing walls from recovering.

Neither of these options are incredible, meta-defining Pokemon, but they've both been useful to me. Try them out and see for yourself!
 
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Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
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UU & Tour Head
Honestly I've been pretty torn about Victini. I still think people overrate it a bit, as one of those things that is way worse to deal with on paper than in practice. In particular I've found its mixed/lure sets way overhyped and outclassed by other breakers.

On the other hand... man, CB in particular really is obnoxious, because unlike the other sets it doesn't really need prediction. If you're running a BO or balanced team without Pursuit support, you're probably going to be pressured like crazy every time it comes in. The previous ways of playing around it in BW/ORAS (aggressively maintaining Stealth Rock and keeping it from switching in for free) are a lot harder in this gen, where we have way more reliable hazard removal than we ever did in the past two gens. I've been messing around a lot with BO and balance in the current meta, and Victini is probably the single hardest threat to reliably check without slapping on Suit MAero on every team.

The other problem I have with tini is that its role as a wallbreaker is a way more valuable one in this meta. This is something that's hard to quantify, but there are so many strong offensive threats that tini's ability to reliably punch through such a wide swath of defensive 'mons (even if it dies in the process) can be really gamebreaking. There's no other wallbreaker in the tier right now that can do quite the job that Victini can. Most others have a few really good matchups but also some really bad ones, or else they have major drawbacks in bulk and/or Speed that keep them from performing well in every game, or else they're really reliant on prediction to accomplish what they need to do in a game. Victini isn't perfect, but it's the best of the bunch, and while I waffled back and forth for a while I plan to vote ban.
 
I really wish to see more people use AV Slowking.


Slowking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Scald
- Psyshock / Future Sight
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Tail

It's like the only Pokemon that can provide BO and balance teams a switch-in to BOTH Keldeo and Primarina (Tentacruel loses to Sub CM Keld and Psychic Primarina) not only that but it also counters mons like the Nidos, Cobalion and Infernape.

Future Sight works great with hazards and/or wallbreakers like Cobalion and Entei while Psyshock lets it 1V1 Primarina. DTail can constantly phaze CM Cune so that your team's dedicated check (Heliolisk, Roserade) can beat it later without it having CM Boosts.

Great mon.
 
I really wish to see more people use AV Slowking.


Slowking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Scald
- Psyshock / Future Sight
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Tail

It's like the only Pokemon that can provide BO and balance teams a switch-in to BOTH Keldeo and Primarina (Tentacruel loses to Sub CM Keld and Psychic Primarina) not only that but it also counters mons like the Nidos, Cobalion and Infernape.

Future Sight works great with hazards and/or wallbreakers like Cobalion and Entei while Psyshock lets it 1V1 Primarina. DTail can constantly phaze CM Cune so that your team's dedicated check (Heliolisk, Roserade) can beat it later without it having CM Boosts.

Great mon.
I'd like to point out a similar idea with Slowbro since it has higher physical bulk, while the AV makes it a great special wall too. So it's all-around bulkier with just as much firepower. I personally roll with Scald, Ice Beam, Psyshock, and Shadow Ball. Most people expect to not be bopper by Slowbro, but Modest Slowbro does a lot of work. Especially with Shadow Ball providing good neutral coverage.
 
Use this thread to discuss about the metagame, the current suspect (Victini) and what should be suspected next.
I'd like to suggest Keldeo be suspected next. The combination of the coverage, power, and speed makes it really difficult to deal with. I was trying to build today and it really struck me how little walls it. There's Celebi and Latias but those mons can be trapped fairly easily (and given the two most common trappers are both S rank threats it's really not hard to pair Keldeo with Pursuit.) Beyond that what is there? Suicune doesn't wall Specs, Mantine doesn't wall because of the increasing prevalence of HP Electric. The only real hard counters are obscure mostly unviable mons like Jellicent or Gastrodon. Scarf can put in a ton of work vs. offense so it's not just threatening fat teams.... so yeah, I'd like to see a Keldeo suspect test.
 

esche

woohoo
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I heavily disagree with that suggestion. Yes, Keldeo is a top tier threat and that's why it sits in A+ on the viability rankings but I don't see a need for a Keldeo suspect test at all. You basically forgot a whole array of Keldeo answers: Amoonguss, which is incredibly common and scouts and deals with pretty much anything Keldeo throws at it (Specs Icy Wind? 1 sec lemme switch real quick, get basically back up to full and also have initiative the next turn), two hard-checks in Slowbro + Slowking (the latter of which is actually pretty cool right know, see a few posts above), another hard-check/counter in Starmie as well as other good checks like Tentacruel, Toxicroak (which btw I find incredibly underrated don't agree with it moving down on the rankings), Primarina, hell even Decidueye and Volcanion can take advantage of it. Scarf is really good versus offense, like you said, but it can't break shit, CM can threaten slower teams but it gets easily revenge killed by the likes of Aerodactyl, Raikou and Zam, it also can't break Latias, Celebi, Amoonguss or Starmie. Specs admittedly hits hard af but it's not unmanageable, most of the above listed mons do take 2 hits and forced it out, plus Keldeo is one of the better answers to Bisharp and Scizor as well as a check to Gliscor, which all commonly carry Knock Off and suddenly Keldeo doesn't hit that hard anymore (I guess you can avoid switching into them directly but then you have to stack up on better Bish and Sciz checks of which there are not all that many and good luck fitting them on more offensive builds). Keldeo doesn't run Scarf, Specs and CM all at the same time, you obviously have to be prepared for it but it's not like it is unkillable or that it has no counters or counterplay, there is actually plenty of that, some of which I mentioned above. Yes, you are going to encounter Keldeo with Pursuit trappers but that applies for a lot of threats that appreciate their counters removed/weakened and Celebi and Latias are pretty much the onyl two that straight up die to Pursuit so... On another note, Choiced variants have to choose between HP Electric, HP Bug and Icy Wind in the 4th moveslot each of which covers like 1/3 of its checks (and besides none of them is actually OHKOd by either of these) so yeah don't really see a problem with that. Also, Jellicent and Gastrodon are by no means unviable like what the hell?

but man cm breakneck blitz kills all of those keldeo is broken ban it pls -
nah i dont think so man keldeo is good and all but it has certainly not reached suspect threat level
 
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Nidoking @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Sludge Wave
I have been trying out Nidoking as well, and really think it's a bit under the radar. Its speed tier is super nice considering my Queens always get flinched down by Togekiss, and it really brutalizes standard Fairy/Water/Steel balances. Those kinds of balances have been a bit annoying when they featured Suicune, and the instant we go into stall ft. Blissey, this kind of Nidoking didn't bring as much to the table as I had hoped. Between 4 Attacks and 3 Attacks + Stealth Rock, nothing ever clicked for me, but I brought back a tech I used during ORAS: Taunt. I rarely missed the coverage, and I never really missed Stealth Rock as I find Nidoking is often better off just attacking something, but while I can't 1v1 it, Taunt has helped me wear down Blissey, which has been useful for other special attackers.


Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 148 SpD / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
- Giga Drain
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock
- Recover

Another Pokemon I have been rather enjoying is this Celebi. This isn't anything too innovative, and has its own set on the analysis, but the more I play with it, the more I enjoy it. I have been using this set on offense, and I have found many opportunities to switch into threats and set up Stealth Rock. Giga Drain does not 2HKO Primarina, but it has helped me avoid the 2HKO from its Choice Specs Moonblast. Interestingly enough, I have not clicked Recover much because I am often better off getting up my rocks or gaining momentum, whic brings me to U-turn. U-turn is probably the main draw of this set, as it allows Celebi to grab momentum easily, and chips down opposing Psychic-types. That is rather useful in conjunction with a Fighting-type. On top of that, if the opponent tries to answer Celebi with a Psychic-type like Latias or actually hard switches Gengar into Celebi (yes, I've seen that), Pursuit support from Pokemon like Scizor or Absol can be utilized to remove those threats. This Celebi set has been pretty nifty overall.


Conkeldurr @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hammer Arm
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab / Ice Punch

Choice Band Conkeldurr is something I always feared in ORAS, as it was impossibly hard to switch into. The same still holds true. While Conkeldurr does get far fewer chances to fire off a Hammer Arm, it is still far from useless even against fast teams as its strong Mach Punch is still incredible. A lot of people are using Latias, Celebi or even Starmie to check Fighting-types, and usually support those by running a Ghost-type alongside them, or a Gliscor/Crobat. Knock Off can effectively remove most of these Pokemon, and this can actually be somewhat cool if you pair it up with another Fighting-type like Infernape or Keldeo. I have honestly not been clicking Poison Jab much because I have other ways of dealing with Fairies and ran into many Primarinas, which do not take Hammer Arm well at all, so Ice Punch is something I have tried and liked a bit. Removing Gliscor can be great. That said, Poison Jab is still the superior option as long as we have Clefable in the tier, as it cannot take that well at all and can actually switch into Hammer Arm comfortably.

Oh, almost forgot. The speed is for uninvested Scizor. A lot of Scizors assume they can just U-turn on Conk for a bit of chip damage and then go into their answers, but they then take a Hammer Arm for a minimum of 71% damage (and that's against max HP / max Defense Impish Scizor, which isn't that common).

Now that my finds are done, I figured I might as well post about the results of Research Week:

Arcanine, Heliolisk, Snorlax and Metagross have been tested by my researchers. The only one that saw some actual success was Metagross, although Snorlax has potential. Arcanine was by far the worst of the bunch, as it could hardly function as a check to the things it was meant to check if Stealth Rock was up. It can spread status, but it is a giant invitation to Water-types like Suicune and Primarina. Especially Primarina has been scary, even though Wild Charge from defensive Arcanine still deals some good damage to it. Between Hippowdon's Sand and the recoil from its own damage-dealing moves, Arcanine has also been rather hard to keep healthy. All in all, it didn't perform well for anyone who tested it.

Heliolisk saw some okay results in its Choice Specs set, but has been very underwhelming overall. Granted, an Electric-type that can dent Hippowdon is rather cool, but Raikou still outperformed it. The fact that Choice Band Scizor's Bullet Punch is a 2HKO doesn't bode well for it, either.

Snorlax did not see too many tests, but the set that has been tested was Choice Band. It had okay results, as its ability to switch into scalds and sometimes just absorb hits and retaliate with a Return, Facade or coverage move has been useful. Personally, I have used Assault Vest Snorlax a bit (and I know Killintime did as well), and it has been a rather decent check to Raikou, and can even switch into Primarina at least once. Sadly, its low power (unless it gets the Facade boost) has been a bit of a letdown, but the ability to Pursuit Trap Gengar and Alakazam has been nice.

Metagross' versatility has been the tool that made it succeed, and mixed sets saw the best results. Pursuit allowed it to trap Latias and wear it down, while Hidden Power Fire could remove Scizor and Forretress. Grass Knot dealt with Swampert and could, with a decent chunk of SpA investment or a boosting item like Expert Belt, even 2HKO Hippowdon. It seems like one of the problems Metagross faced was the ubiquity of Pursuit, and the fact that its damage output was still a bit disappointing. It was a lure for many things, but hardly performed beyond that. Its speed tier is not favorable, and it hardly warrants a use over Scizor or Bisharp as a Steel-type outside of its lure sets.

That concludes my report. At this point, I just want to thank all of my researchers again. This week is already returning promising results, and after writing this, I really think I want to do like a weekly recap, and maybe I will just combine it with a few other things I personally tried out. I wasn't having fun in this meta for a while, but the more I try out and the more cool stuff I see, the more I like it, and I hope everyone will be able to appreciate it.
 
I'd like to point out a similar idea with Slowbro since it has higher physical bulk, while the AV makes it a great special wall too. So it's all-around bulkier with just as much firepower. I personally roll with Scald, Ice Beam, Psyshock, and Shadow Ball. Most people expect to not be bopper by Slowbro, but Modest Slowbro does a lot of work. Especially with Shadow Ball providing good neutral coverage.
The problem with AV Slowbro is that it gets 2HKO'd by Specs Primarina's Moonblast and Nidoking's TBolt:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 200-237 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now the same mons but against AV Slowking:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 154-183 (39 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 153-182 (38.8 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

There is a difference of 30 Base stat in SpD between the two and it shows! Also, Slowbro doesn't have access to DTail so it tends to become set up bait for Reuniclus and Suicune.
 
Voting for Victini has been completed, and Victini has been banned unanimously.
dodmen
Hikari
Hogg
Pearl
King UU
Christo.
Bouff
Tony
killintime (rotating)
Sacri' (rotating)
Aquadext (rotating)
Amaroq (rotating in place of Sam's vote)

Our next suspect test will be Staraptor. Sacri' has been promoted to a full council member as Sam has stepped down. Our rotating voters for this round are CoolStoryBrobat, Lord Esche, and GrilledClawitzer.

The Immortal please remove Victini from the UU ladder and add Staraptor. Thanks!

As usual, discuss about the current metagame and the current suspect.
 
the only thing that can actually take two of any of banded staraptor's hits are doublade. scarf is a bit more manageable but is still stupidly strong
252+ Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Hippowdon: 178-211 (42.4 - 50.3%)
for a non-boosted attack thats ridiculous
252+ Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- 24.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(u should always run a bit of spdef on ur slowbro to better take on keldeo anyways)

sure it dies fast and is weak to rocks but if ur nuking the opponents wall or dedicated sacrifice staraptor is definitely doing its job of breaking/crippling
Edit: if u pair banded with wish support and play smartly u should pretty much win against stall

this big bird also has u-turn for pivoting if they do have a doublade.

you might say steel types wall its stabs, but
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 294-346 (91 - 107.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0HKO on the switch, scarf 2Kos
the only steel type that resists both stabs are doublade and like klefki and klefki cant do anything back but cripple it
 

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Latias @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Healing Wish
- Defog


Staraptor @ Choice Band
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Double-Edge
- Close Combat
- U-turn

Both of these mons go very great together. Latias provides hazard control for Staraptor while Healing Wish helps recover off any recoil damage it accumulated. If hazard control isn't needed than Roost or Thunderbolt can fill that slot nicely. Its also a nice core for offensive playstyles since it doesn't take away momentum as opposed to Wish support from Blissey or Clefable.

Anyways, I'm a little bit iffy on Staraptor being back in the tier (leaning towards the "go back to BL side") since there really isn't many switch-ins to it, especially on offensive teams. But on the other side, recoil + hazard damage sucks and there are quite a few things in the tier that can revenge kill it (Mega Aero, Scarf Keldeo, Bisharp, Alakazam). Interested to see how the bird plays out in the tier!
 
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Good for Victini, it was tough to handle (I've even seen more Persian during test, even though banded V-Create is almost a clean KO in most cases).

Regarding Staraptor, I'm excited to see what happens. Doublade is a true counter and that wasn't different from last gen. In fact we lost great checks in M-Aggro and M-Steelix, so it's a little harder to check now.

Some creative checks are M-Sharpedo (mega mechanics let's it outspeed after 1 speed boost and easily KO), Klefki, and (just to put in perspective) Persian has a 90% chance to survive a banded Reckless DE/BB with rocks and KO with Foul PlaY (figure in recoil as well)

252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Fur Coat Persian: 250-295 (74.8 - 88.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
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