np: SUMO UU Stage 1 - Feels Like We Only Go Backwards

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Not too surprised Victini is banned, though I can't say I'm not disappointed. I have been playing a bit, and Staraptor is just as stupidly strong as it was in the beta. It is similar to Victini in the sense that it can bash in would be walls using brute force. While V-Create is stronger, the fact that Double edge and Brave bird are pretty spammable as well make raptor really deadly against offense teams when using a choice scarf. This is something Victini could not do. Staraptor also has a great CB set against fatter teams. That's pretty much where the similarities end. Victini has a good, diverse movepool that Staraptor wishes it had, but the thing is, Staraptor has all the tools it needs to decimate most teams. U-Turn for momentum, great Reckless boosted stabs in Double Edge and Brave Bird, and CC for steel types. The fact that the most relevant steel type atm (cobalion) takes BB neutrally is great, since scarf can come in and easily 2hk the offense set:

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 178-211 (55.1 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Personally, I found Victini much more manageable, since V-Create spam can be punished, and scouting for a MixedTini wasn't so bad. It doesn't matter that Staraptor can only run 2 viable sets, it does them so well that teams have to prepare for it. What separates Staraptor from something like CB Entei from ORAS UU is the fact the in ORAS UU, teams could prepare for Entei organically, with defensive threats like CroCune, or offense threats like Hydregion. Right now, there aren't many viable flying resists that can fit onto teams easily. If people want to run a flying resist now, it is due to the fact that Staraptor is in the tier. I am always a bit suspect of Mons that force teams to run a specific counter just to deal with a threat. It isn't like Scizor, where things like SD Gliscor, Volcanion, and HP Fire Lati are all great on their own. To run something like Physically Defensive Bronzong or Metagross for the sole purpose of taking a hit from Staraptor just doesn't seem to great for the tier.

All in all, I do not thing Staraptor will end up being UU, but if others have counter points, I would leave to hear them!
 

Punchshroom

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Alakazam @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Counter
For the record, why wouldn't you run 4 HP on this for 502 Counter damage? Not like 4 SpD EVs matters on Zam anyway, much less Sash Zam.
 
psst what are offensive fighting checks/pivots? my current raptor HO has 0 fighting switchins and that needs to be fixed D:

edit: lol ribombee. ty fuzzball! didn't think it was necessary to make another post haha
 
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For some reason, one of the most slept on Pokemon in UU:

Scizor @ Iron Plate / Lum Berry
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Superpower

Most Scizors I've seen have been the bulky SD set, which I feel doesn't take advantage of Scizor's capabilities at all even though it can be a decent pivot. It's stuck between Roosting off moderate attacks like Aerodactyl's Stone Edge, is completely taken advantage by tons and tons of stuff from Keldeo to Tentacruel, and always fears HP Fire from Latias and Flamethrower from Clefable and that kind of stuff. However offensive SD Scizor is an extremely potent sweeper on bulky and hyper offense and doesn't get nearly the usage it deserves. It tanks a hit from most offensive stuff to set up and then proceeds to just run through shit, including nearly any soft check to the bulky SD variant, and I'd say offensive SD is actually Scizor's best set. As a bonus you can also get 2 SDs up when your opponent does something like switch in their own Scizor or Gliscor.
Calcs vs common checks to bulky Scizor:
+2 252+ Atk Iron Plate Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 331-391 (109.9 - 129.9%)
+2 252+ Atk Iron Plate Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 321-378 (105.9 - 124.7%)
+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 319-376 (74 - 87.2%)
+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Hippowdon: 237-280 (56.5 - 66.8%)
+4 252+ Atk Iron Plate Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 244 HP / 8 Def Gliscor: 318-375 (90.3 - 106.5%)

Replays of it putting in work, particularly when bulky SD wouldn't have done shit:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-538998647
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-538997068
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-538958053


Infernape @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 188 Atk / 68 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Overheat
- Close Combat
- Gunk Shot
- Grass Knot

Another Pokemon I've been having fun with. It's a monster early game when rocks are up for the opponent, forcing out stuff like Scizor and Bisharp out early game to 2HKO almost everything. Much more consistent than Nasty Plot since it's not reliant on setup and can chunk Lati for ~50 on the switchin.
88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Hippowdon: 265-315 (63.2 - 75.1%)
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 239-283 (60.6 - 71.8%)
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 348-411 (115.6 - 136.5%)
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 148-175 (49.1 - 58.1%)
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Mantine: 142-168 (37.9 - 44.9%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 205-242 (52 - 61.4%)


As for Staraptor, I don't have too much to say about it. I came in trying to be lenient and wanted to make sure I differentiated between "broken" and just "really good", and it's certainly nowhere near as broken as Victini was. It's almost never going to sweep a team, has 0 switchin opportunities, wears itself down extremely easily, and has plenty of checks/can be taken advantage of. However, with the Scarf set it just OHKOs offensive stuff like Primarina and Raikou with only rocks up while outspeeding 98% of the tier. And Band just forces balance teams to take a kill from turn 1, and what sets it apart from other breakers is that it does so by clicking 1 move 90% of the time without needing any sort of coverage or prediction (and having above average speed, of course). This suspect could probably go either way, but Staraptor is a standout threat in a metagame already full of balance-beating Pokemon.
 

Bouff

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ok, before i get into the raptor, i have a few things to say on the current state on the meta overall. i know i am going to get a lot of shit and call me stupid etc etc etc for the first part but its honestly how im feeling so whatever.

i think its pretty safe to say that clefable is by far one of the, if not the most splashable and probably the best mon in the meta. it has a lot of sets it can run without having any inherent flaws off the bat, and has literally everything at its disposal to break through a lot of cookie cutter teams depending on your coverage. with that being said a lot of people have been wanting to ban it....

..but with that being said i actually think its healthy for the meta, in a way similar to scizor - it blanket checks such a huge number of threats in the tier, some being fairly overbearing otherwise thus making it really easy to fit on a team. ive also found that there is a pretty good amount of counterplay to it - the nidos are pretty much your best bet vs every variation of clef unless you let it set up too much (lets be realistic, no one is going to run psychic coverage, way too inconsistent for it to be worth it in almost every scenario), offensive checks like gengar, volcanion, cobalion, scizor, and magneton are commonplace in the meta (and i think more are bound to crop up in popularity as the meta develops, i.e. talonflame and entei), and it has trouble breaking through things like amoon / tenta. depending on its spread it opens it up to other things as well - physically defensive sets have trouble vs stuff like prima stoise specs keld lo zam etc and more specially defensive sets cant switch into maero (hone claws is underrated as shit btw that thing is really good at breaking balance) and mega shark as reliably. now obviously like i said earlier it has its ways of getting through the above answers but there are enough ways of dealing with it that make it not as insane as a lot of people (including myself) thought when it dropped.

i think a lot of people are just having problems adapting to it, given how fairies in the past have been, including in oras. everything except maybe sylveon has had some pretty big flaw that is easy to take advantage of, but given how clef can take on its answers its a little hard to get used to teambuilding wise. i mean u cant just slap a zor or a bisharp or whatever and call it a day in terms of prep lol because at that point you are bound to fuck up and lose eventually...as the metagame develops it'll become easier and easier to deal with and prepare for in the builder.

however if there is one thing in particular that i think is pretty fucking stupid about clef, it's its presence on stall teams. unaware sets just patch up so many of the problems that stall teams had that its annoying to break through without certain breakers like infernape. the stall team that Arifeen (i think) used to qualify for ult matches up extremely well vs most teams in the metagame despite being weak to stuff like togekiss, the aformentioned nape, etc. if there is anything that makes me lean towards banning it, its how it makes stall pretty bonkers to face.

i dunno. this post has basically been me rambling but i have been swaying a lot about this thing as of the past few days. maybe the other council members will ban it come next tier shift, maybe i will, maybe it'll move up back to ou ( i dunno how common it is but that toxapex stall team with it chansey dug etc seems to be pretty consistent, but thats besides the point). i just wanted to give my stance on it since i know there are probably some who are adamant on its departure.

------- (yeah im breaking cause i wanna switch topics fuck with me)

if we wanna go into something thats also fucking stupid let's talk mega shark. in my opinion, its definitely been the best mega to use, second to maero in some cases if only cause of the utility it brings in its resistances, suit, etc. the problem i have with mega shark is its lack of reliable answers. unlike clef, your checks on offense are pretty scarce. you have ape / keld for scarfers to revenge kill it without basically dropping (although this number increases if youre running adamant which is fair), cobalion can tank a waterfall and kill it with cc, primarina basically needs to be near full in order to not die, sash counter zam is a pretty reliable way of dealing with it if they dont have anything else you want your sash intact for *they probably will*. there are some other things that fit on offensive teams that can tank a hit and ko it but you virtually have to be healthy in order for that to happen. i mean bu conk cant even ohko it with mach assuming that its already megad and with a little bit of prior damage it drops to psych fangs. defensively this is pretty similar as well, bold clef is pretty much your best bet for that. things like bulky waters and fat zor can do this as well but arent as reliable since theyre pretty easy to wear down, and spikes is something that shark meshes with incredibly well. the speed buff and its access to psychic fangs make it extremely difficult to deal with, which is why id be nomming it and most likely going for banning it, unless tangrowth drops maybe, but thats not happening lol


oh and i guess theres raptor. i mean, whats there to say about it that isn't obvious? you have pretty decent checks on it that can fit on teams that are pretty uncommon right now like rhyp, zong, diancie etc but those aren't really viable otherwise. obviously mega aero exists too. but like dod said its pretty straightforward and brainless to use and is just really fucking good both as a breaker and a revenge killer. thats pretty much all i think about it lol. its really plain and simple but its extremely effective.

e; i forgot that clef could run ice beam lol, yea that's a better option to deal with nidos. i still feel like they're pretty consistent checks tho lol
 
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Sacri'

a wish for peace
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I orginally planned on just posting my opinion regarding Staraptor but some parts of Bouff's and dodmen's respective posts bring really interesting subjects that I want to adress.

Even though Staraptor isnt quite as good as Victini or as some of the other BL threats I still really dislike its effect on the metagame. Brave Bird is ridiculously easy to spam, the Scarf variant is incredibly thretening to offensive teams while the Banded one just gets a kill vs any slower 'mon not called doublade. There isn't even that much to say about it, we simply lack sturdy flying resist in UU, if we're forced into running things like Bronzong or Diancie to not which are otherwise pretty bad to not get smashed by Staraptor that's clearly an issue teambuilding wise. It took me a little while to figure it out but I'll most definitely vote ban.

For some reason, one of the most slept on Pokemon in UU:
Most Scizors I've seen have been the bulky SD set, which I feel doesn't take advantage of Scizor's capabilities at all even though it can be a decent pivot. It's stuck between Roosting off moderate attacks like Aerodactyl's Stone Edge, is completely taken advantage by tons and tons of stuff from Keldeo to Tentacruel, and always fears HP Fire from Latias and Flamethrower from Clefable and that kind of stuff. However offensive SD Scizor is an extremely potent sweeper on bulky and hyper offense and doesn't get nearly the usage it deserves. It tanks a hit from most offensive stuff to set up and then proceeds to just run through shit, including nearly any soft check to the bulky SD variant, and I'd say offensive SD is actually Scizor's best set. As a bonus you can also get 2 SDs up when your opponent does something like switch in their own Scizor or Gliscor.
I agree that Offensive Scizor is a good set which doesnt quite deserve such a low usage. However, I've been using the bulky SD variant and I honestly think it's so much more than just a decent pivot. Even though it'll end up using Roost a fair bit to be able to reliably check the threats it's supposed to, I feel like its ability to both handle some of the most popular threats of the meta while still applying a good amount of pressure to a lot of teams is nothing to sleep on. The main intereset of the Bulky SD set to me is that it's extremely splashable, it beats some of the most common threats of the meta fairly easily which makes it really easy to just slap on teams simply because it does many things at the same time yet it's still able to accomplish exactly what it's supposed to. U-Turn allows it to take advantage of the things that wall it to allow to bring in extremely threatening wallbreakers such as the Specs variants of Keldeo and Primarina. Setting up is extremely easy for a pokemon as bulky as Scizor and having reliable recovery means it can easily do it multiple times in the same game. At the end of the day Scizor is just one of those mons which can just adapt its set to the team's needs, most of my teams appreciate Bulky Scizor when I need to pivot into things while some others prefer the offensive variant's ability to directly threaten balanced or offensive cores to allow some other offensive threats to put work. I wouldn't say that any of these set is actually better than the other, both are extremely good at what they do which is why I think calling the offensive SD variant Scizor's best is a bit of an overkill.

ok, before i get into the raptor, i have a few things to say on the current state on the meta overall. i know i am going to get a lot of shit and call me stupid etc etc etc for the first part but its honestly how im feeling so whatever.

i think its pretty safe to say that clefable is by far one of the, if not the most splashable and probably the best mon in the meta. it has a lot of sets it can run without having any inherent flaws off the bat, and has literally everything at its disposal to break through a lot of cookie cutter teams depending on your coverage. with that being said a lot of people have been wanting to ban it....

..but with that being said i actually think its healthy for the meta, in a way similar to scizor - it blanket checks such a huge number of threats in the tier, some being fairly overbearing otherwise thus making it really easy to fit on a team. ive also found that there is a pretty good amount of counterplay to it - the nidos are pretty much your best bet vs every variation of clef unless you let it set up too much (lets be realistic, no one is going to run psychic coverage, way too inconsistent for it to be worth it in almost every scenario), offensive checks like gengar, volcanion, cobalion, scizor, and magneton are commonplace in the meta (and i think more are bound to crop up in popularity as the meta develops, i.e. talonflame and entei), and it has trouble breaking through things like amoon / tenta. depending on its spread it opens it up to other things as well - physically defensive sets have trouble vs stuff like prima stoise specs keld lo zam etc and more specially defensive sets cant switch into maero (hone claws is underrated as shit btw that thing is really good at breaking balance) and mega shark as reliably. now obviously like i said earlier it has its ways of getting through the above answers but there are enough ways of dealing with it that make it not as insane as a lot of people (including myself) thought when it dropped.

i think a lot of people are just having problems adapting to it, given how fairies in the past have been, including in oras. everything except maybe sylveon has had some pretty big flaw that is easy to take advantage of, but given how clef can take on its answers its a little hard to get used to teambuilding wise. i mean u cant just slap a zor or a bisharp or whatever and call it a day in terms of prep lol because at that point you are bound to fuck up and lose eventually...as the metagame develops it'll become easier and easier to deal with and prepare for in the builder.

however if there is one thing in particular that i think is pretty fucking stupid about clef, it's its presence on stall teams. unaware sets just patch up so many of the problems that stall teams had that its annoying to break through without certain breakers like infernape. the stall team that Arifeen (i think) used to qualify for ult matches up extremely well vs most teams in the metagame despite being weak to stuff like togekiss, the aformentioned nape, etc. if there is anything that makes me lean towards banning it, its how it makes stall pretty bonkers to face.

i dunno. this post has basically been me rambling but i have been swaying a lot about this thing as of the past few days. maybe the other council members will ban it come next tier shift, maybe i will, maybe it'll move up back to ou ( i dunno how common it is but that toxapex stall team with it chansey dug etc seems to be pretty consistent, but thats besides the point). i just wanted to give my stance on it since i know there are probably some who are adamant on its departure.
As a matter of fact I really like this post because our experience with Clefable allowed us to make the same statements regarding Clefable yet our opinion on whether it should be banned or not is entirely different. Over the past few weeks I've experienced a fair amount of Clefable variants, from the tank LO set (which is great by the way) to different Calm Mind variants. The issue I have with Clefable is that it's stupidly hard to handle despite its low speed. Basically, depending on what CM Clefable runs as its fourth move you may just see what you use as your best mean to take care of Clef being heavily crippled or weakened. For instance, Tentacruel is known to decently check it but if it happens to have knock off Tenta just loses its only mean of recovery which makes switching into Clefable while still doing its job as a spinner way harder. Another real problem I have with Clefable is that it's splashable to the point where it becomes very unhealthy. In fact, for most teams there is just no reason at all not to use Clefable simply because it deals with a ridiculous amount of threat while also being able to win on it's own with the right conditions which usually arent hard to obtain. I've seen countless games in which the mons supposed to handle Clefable on both team were crippled to the point where both players are forced into a CM war which is either decided by crits or by the use of Twave. (The one with T-wave usually wins rather easily). The aformentioned situation happens way too often to be irrelevant, it's not just people not playing well enough to deal with Clefable it's more that Clefable's overall bulk and typing makes setting up extremely easy to the points where its checks tend to get overwhelmed. Clefable really does make teambuilding much easier but it's just too effective and easy to slap on teams to be healthy in any way. I was personally fine with letting the tier some time to see if it can adapt to Clefable. A month has passed and I'm still far from convinced we should allow Clefable to stay.
 
So we are getting Mega Pidgeot and Mega Steelix in march, which are 2 cool new megas for the tier.

Pidgeot is going to be a potent offense breaker, since it outspeeds everything slower than Alakazam while being able to hit foes with powerful hurricanes. These hurricanes are also going to be a pain since it allows it to use confusion to blow past its checks like Hippowdon, Klefki, and Latias. I can see it being very high ranked.

Steelix is going to be a great defensive mon and a god-send to stall due to its ability to hard check so many common pokemon such as Bisharp, Scizor, Clefable, Aerodactyl, and Raikou. It still has good checks in our numerous waters, but that weakness can be patched up by its partner pokemon such as Mantine. All in all, Steelix is going to be a very solid mon.
 

Hikari

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Not feeling to hot about Staraptor right now. It's definitely a good Pokemon and it hits like really damn hard, but in my experience with and against, it has some really major flaws holding it down.

The Choice Scarf set is good vs offense, but it's a complete liability against bulky teams because it can't switch into anything, gets worn down and it dies in every trade in which it doesn't get the OHKO. Additionally, even offense has some fairly reliable ways of playing around it, like priority (even if you don't get the OHKO, Staraptor kills itself), Bisharp, Metagross, Doublade, Mega Aerodactyl (can't directly switch-in if rocks are up), faster scarf users, every Pokemon Staraptor can't OHKO at full. Scarf Staraptor is really good at forcing trades and revenge killing without becoming a setup fodder to some major threats, but it is far from being anything but just another threat. Honestly, you don't even need to get out of your way to prepare for it, or run "weird" sets or Pokemon. Lastly, the biggest problem I have had with Scarf Staraptor in offense is that it is slower than +1 Mega Sharpedo, which is a really massive problem for offense.

The Choice Band set has some ridiculous power (stronger than Crawdaunt, for reference), but it really isn't particularly threatening against offense, especially when you compare it with faster / less priority weak power houses. However, against balance it can be pretty damn scary if you are not prepared for it, but you can prepare for it without running being "forced to run bad Pokemon". Stealth Rock is your step 1, as long as those are up Staraptor can't switch into anything and kills itself faster, so your opponent is automatically forced to get rid of those, which isn't as simple as clicking Defog when you are running offense (the only playstyle in which Raptor fits in). Offensive checks like Metagross, Bisharp and Doublade work in balance too and this playstyle can afford running more defensive checks, like Bronzong, Gigalith, Rhyperior, Dianice, Steelix (which is actually pretty decent rn, as it checks stuff like Clefable, Latias, Raikou, and Staraptor. And fwiw, Mega Steelix gets released next month, which means it'll be UU in April) and bulky Metagross. Once again, every trade in which Staraptor doesn't get the OHKO ends with it dying, but for obvious reasons the numbers of Pokemon that can pull that off here are smaller than on the Scarf set. Another thing is that Gliscor and Hippowdon, two of the few Pokemon that let Staraptor switch in for free, can Roost / Slack Off stall it while it kills itself in 3 turns and stay reasonably healthy; however this depends on EVs, but it's less about running max def and more about nut running max sdef. And for last, faster stuff like Keldeo, Raikou or Mega Aerodactyl
will either force Raptor out (which is crippling) or OHKO.

Choice Band set can be scary for stall, but it basically is the only playstyle that it is forced to hard check / counter every single mayor threat in the tier, including Staraptor. Try running stall without at least one Unaware Pokemon and you auto lose to Gliscor and setup sweepers become a massive problem. No way of 2HKOing Togekiss? auto lose. Running the same stall team everyone is running? Auto lose to Taunt WoW Mew and the fucking cheesy SD Dhelmise bullshit people are starting to run to specifically beat that team. Z-Crabhammer Sword Dance Crawdaunt beats both Unaware Pokemon and things like Alomomola aren't big fans of it. There are countless examples of that. Stall being forced to run specific Pokemon to not lose to specific threats isn't a new concept; shit is the standard since BW UU.

So yeah, Staraptor is a really scary Pokemon, but in my opinion it has some major drawbacks that keep it manageable.
 
I don't usually contribute to these types of threads but I felt compelled to give my two cents and respond to this post because Raptor is honestly the most broken mon I've ever seen in UU discounting alpha.

The Choice Scarf set is good vs offense, but it's a complete liability against bulky teams because it can't switch into anything, gets worn down and it dies in every trade in which it doesn't get the OHKO.
(emphasis mine)

Err, basically what you just said was that even in bad matchups Raptor can trade 1:1 which isn't even bad. A lot of top scarfers in tier (such as Keldeo, for example) can't even trade 1:1 vs. stall and rarely get as many kills as consistently as Ratpor does vs. other playstyles.

Also with proper support Raptor can do a ton vs. stall. One of my friends owned stall with Band Raptor because he had it paired with Healing Wish Lati. All he had to do was play smart and wait for the right time to bring it in and he collected a kill every time... then when it was low he brought it back to full and finished the game.

Additionally, even offense has some fairly reliable ways of playing around it, like priority (even if you don't get the OHKO, Staraptor kills itself), Bisharp, Metagross, Doublade, Mega Aerodactyl (can't directly switch-in if rocks are up), faster scarf users, every Pokemon Staraptor can't OHKO at full.
(emphasis mine)

252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 496-584 (183 - 215.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 141-167 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO

Two of the four switch ins you named can't even switch in (Mega Aero can't switch in reliably even if rocks *aren't* up) and the other two are frankly niche mons that aren't particularly good right now outside of checking Raptor -- and I would argue being forced to use mons like that purely out of the need to check one threat is proof Ratpor is broken.

If you're saying Raptor can be pursuit trapped by those two then it can't be done reliably. Pursuit can only force a 50/50 and even if the Pursuit user gets the 50/50 right Raptor doesn't die. Mega Aero's pursuit does 50~% if Raptor switches out and AV Sharp's does 60~%. So basically for Bisharp and Mega Aero to be your team's Raptor "check" you have to sack a mon to get them in for free since they can't switch in AND get a 50/50 right AND even then Raptor is probably still going to be alive and easily can get at least one more kill later on.

Scarf Staraptor is really good at forcing trades and revenge killing without becoming a setup fodder to some major threats, but it is far from being anything but just another threat. Honestly, you don't even need to get out of your way to prepare for it, or run "weird" sets or Pokemon.
(emphasis mine)

Given that Bisharp and Mega Aero are extremely shaky and unreliable "checks" I would argue you do.

The Choice Band set has some ridiculous power (stronger than Crawdaunt, for reference), but it really isn't particularly threatening against offense, especially when you compare it with faster / less priority weak power houses. However, against balance it can be pretty damn scary if you are not prepared for it, but you can prepare for it without running being "forced to run bad Pokemon". Stealth Rock is your step 1, as long as those are up Staraptor can't switch into anything and kills itself faster, so your opponent is automatically forced to get rid of those, which isn't as simple as clicking Defog when you are running offense (the only playstyle in which Raptor fits in).
(emphasis mine)

Alright, there are a couple issues I have with this paragraph. First when talking about Raptor's rock weakness, specifically how it can be used against it when running balance, you fail to mention that Raptor gets a free switch in vs. balance's most common rockers! Hippo commonly carries no move to hit Raptor, Stealth Rock Gliscor usually carries no move to hit it (after Rocks / Roost / EQ it's usually one of U-Turn / Taunt / Toxic), Cobalion and Empoleon both are OHKOed by Band CC and neither can OHKO Raptor anyways, even if it is Scarf. So for balance getting up rocks vs. Raptor, particularly band Raptor, is fundamentally hard to do to begin with without allowing Raptor in for free to collect a kill.

Also it is completely untrue that Raptor only fits on offense. It's perfectly viable on balance. My aforementioned friend had it on a balance team with Healing Wish Lati which enabled it to brutally punish opposing balance and stall. I myself have used Scarf Raptor on a a sand balance team where it put in a ton of work.

Offensive checks like Metagross, Bisharp and Doublade work in balance too and this playstyle can afford running more defensive checks, like Bronzong, Gigalith, Rhyperior, Dianice, Steelix (which is actually pretty decent rn, as it checks stuff like Clefable, Latias, Raikou, and Staraptor. And fwiw, Mega Steelix gets released next month, which means it'll be UU in April) and bulky Metagross. Once again, every trade in which Staraptor doesn't get the OHKO ends with it dying, but for obvious reasons the numbers of Pokemon that can pull that off here are smaller than on the Scarf set. Another thing is that Gliscor and Hippowdon, two of the few Pokemon that let Staraptor switch in for free, can Roost / Slack Off stall it while it kills itself in 3 turns and stay reasonably healthy; however this depends on EVs, but it's less about running max def and more about nut running max sdef. And for last, faster stuff like Keldeo, Raikou or Mega Aerodactyl
will either force Raptor out (which is crippling) or OHKO.
(emphasis mine)

I would argue Bisharp is not a real offensive check for the reasons I outlined above, the next five I bolded are borderline unviable mons that are only used to check Raptor which I would argue is proof it's broken (Diance can also be used on Trick Room teams but is only used outside of Trick Room for its potential to check Raptor.) Talking about what the meta will be like in April or whether Megalix will even be UU (I think it has potential to stay OU because meta changes from ORAS to SUMO have been very favorable for it but I don't want to go off on a tangent) is theory moning and should not be relevant.

For the last part I bolded this isn't true. Hippo has to run 172 SpDef to wall Raikou and with that spread takes 75~% from band CC. SpDef Gliscor takes 85+% and even PhysDef Gliscor takes 70~%.

In conclusion ban this garbage. Bless up.
 
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Eyan

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Ok, so not going to bother too much with Staraptor because if the last couple of posts or so aren't enough to give an idea of what it does, then I don't know what will. Specifically for Scarf Staraptor, against offense, it finds the rare opportunity to switch in freely and starts ramming itself into the opposing team until it goes down, usually getting 1-2 kills in the meantime, but it gets pressured and forced out. Honestly, though, the most annoying thing about Scarf was that too many people started running random Rhyperior / Bronzong / Gigalith offense teams, since they were too focused on actually having a solid switch-in instead of pressuring / playing around it like described above. This made their teams a lot weaker to other threats that they shouldn't be weak to, thus harder to gauge accurately. Staraptor is really good, don't get me wrong, but nowhere near as insane as people initially exaggerated it to be. If it really forced offense teams to run the aforementioned Pokemon (and Doublade which is fine), then yeah it'd be centralising af, but at the end of the day, that's pretty much on the player and not the Pokemon in this case.

Anyway about other things...



Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Protect
- Substitute

Surprisingly, I'm actually posting about Suicune of all things. I feel as though VinCune is criminally underrated right now, or well just Suicune in general, although I think CroCune is pretty bad. It's that coupled with the fact that people who run offense seem to suck at playing around it, where they don't outright need a 100% check but can just pressure it down because of its lack of reliable recovery. It's not like we don't have other good Suicune checks; stuff like Raikou, Celebi, Toxicroak, other CM users like Latias can all get the job done. I've just seen way too many teams that have something like Defog Latias as their only check, which granted can do a ton to Suicune, but they obviously don't beat it in the long run unless you force Suicune to take the big hit for free, thus referring to how it needs to be pressured. As far as bulkier teams go, so many of them just get rolled over by VinCune, especially with Toxic Spikes. Teams that run Amoonguss as their Suicune check is annoying though since they absorb Toxic Spikes, but VinCune does beat it 1v1 if it switches in on a Calm Mind.

A lot of preparation that people put into their teambuilding to take on Water-types just don't hold up against Suicune, such as Latias for Keldeo and Pursuit trappers such as Scarf Krookodile for Starmie (getting rid of VinCune's Leftovers is big, though). I will give that with so many different threats right now, a good amount of people seem to be ready for Suicune without even having it in mind, but the idea of neglecting it is there too. Suicune is definitely nowhere near as good as it was in ORAS, both due to the change in pace of the tier and some other stuff like Scald (burn) nerf, but it's something to keep in mind, at least more than now, because the current number of teams that can't adequately deal with it is triggering. Aquadext and I did tear our brains out when building around it though....




Persian-Alola @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Taunt
- Parting Shot
- Switcheroo

Disclaimer that I'm not saying this is some next level best Pokemon or anything, because it isn't and it's just something interesting that people don't know how to use, and I already know just looking at this Pokemon and set is gonna turn some heads here, but let's just say it's bad timing after this got posted. This basically started with Pearl writing the analysis for this and was asking about testing this Pokemon, which got me really interested. I started out by using Z Parting Shot set that seemed the most promising but didn't really like sacrificing my Z-Move for it tbh and it was just underwhelming in general, so I tried this out and as odd as Scarf utility as a set sounds, it's probably the best way to make Persian work.

Scarf basically makes Alolan Persian faster than any relevant scarfer in the tier so it's more or less free to use Parting Shot for most of the early- or mid-game otherwise Persian is easily exploitable, granted there are situations where you're forced to Foul Play. I tend to Switcheroo pretty early though against slower teams since Persian is naturally fast and bulky, and stuff like clefable tends to switch in, so you still outspeed stuff like Gengar for instance. Fur Coat essentially makes Alolan Persian's Defense as high as an uninvested Skarmory, which is an arbitrary statement to be fair due to different typings but just to give an idea of things. Anyway, Persian is able to live stuff like a +2 Bullet Punch from Life Orb / Iron Plate Scizor pretty comfortably, not get 2HKOed by any attack from Mega Aerodactyl. Scarf Foul Play is able to check a surprising number of threats, such as the two aforementioned Pokemon if needed. The issues it has is that it is very easily exploitable as long as it's still holding its Choice Scarf, as useful as it is. Foul Play immediately makes it setup fodder to stuff like Clefable, and Reuniclus and you're forced to switch out and back in if you want to Taunt or Switcheroo it. Two things you'll definitely have to watch out for are Bisharp and Cobalion, though. One doesn't really like taking Foul Play but can punish Parting Shot, whereas the other doesn't mind Foul Play and can switch into a Switcheroo as well if it's holding a Z crystal. Alolan Persian also doesn't have the offensive presence that other Dark-types such as Krookodile and Hydreigon do, so yeah additional support is needed. It's definitely not the easiest thing in the world to use, but it isn't the complete trash that people think it is. It's one of those Pokemon that are naturally bulky but you have to understand what it's able and unable to switch into. I've been using it with U-turn Gliscor, which has good synergy and forms a pretty nice pseudo VoltTurn core since you're able to pivot back and forth such as on a Life Orb Alakazam to prevent it from 2HKOing Gliscor with Psychic, as well as partnering these 2 with Pursuit Aero, considering the chip with U-turn + the lowered stats from Parting Shot makes it a lot more comfortable Pursuit trapping stuff.

Again, not saying Alolan Persian amazing or w/e, just some thoughts to consider when building.
 
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Hikari

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Err, basically what you just said was that even in bad matchups Raptor can trade 1:1 which isn't even bad. A lot of top scarfers in tier (such as Keldeo, for example) can't even trade 1:1 vs. stall and rarely get as many kills as consistently as Ratpor does vs. other playstyles.
No what I said what that if you don't get the OHKO with Staraptor, it get KOed; also known as "x Pokemon traded hits with Staraptors and came out on top". I didn't say "trade kills", which isn't necessarily good when that's not even guaranteed.

Also with proper support Raptor can do a ton vs. stall. One of my friends owned stall with Band Raptor because he had it paired with Healing Wish Lati. All he had to do was play smart and wait for the right time to bring it in and he collected a kill every time... then when it was low he brought it back to full and finished the game.
Emphasis mine. You are talking about Band to argue against a statement that literally starts with: The Choice Scarf set

252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 496-584 (183 - 215.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 141-167 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO

Two of the four switch ins you named can't even switch in (Mega Aero can't switch in reliably even if rocks *aren't* up) and the other two are frankly niche mons that aren't particularly good right now outside of checking Raptor -- and I would argue being forced to use mons like that purely out of the need to check one threat is proof Ratpor is broken.

If you're saying Raptor can be pursuit trapped by those two then it can't be done reliably. Pursuit can only force a 50/50 and even if the Pursuit user gets the 50/50 right Raptor doesn't die. Mega Aero's pursuit does 50~% if Raptor switches out and AV Sharp's does 60~%. So basically for Bisharp and Mega Aero to be your team's Raptor "check" you have to sack a mon to get them in for free since they can't switch in AND get a 50/50 right AND even then Raptor is probably still going to be alive and easily can get at least one more kill later on.
Yes, the offensive Pokemon with x4 Fighting-type weakness tends to dislike switching into Close Combat. That's kinda why I said "check" and not "hard counters".

As obvious as Close Combat killing Bisharp is for anyone, in practice you can't just simply click that move whenever you wish. Again, every trade in which you don't get the OHKO you die and Close Combat is by far Staraptor riskiest move in that aspect, so are you going to click Close Combat vs the Specs Keldeo predicting the Bisharp switch in? if Keldeo stays in you lose what is likely to be your only scarfer. Another thing is that Close Combat is the only move that keeps Staraptor in the field; U-turn switches it out and its STAB make it kill itself in two turns. Maybe that sounds good on paper, but one of the reasons Scarf Staraptor is good vs offense is the fact that it rarely becomes setup fodder, and getting locked into unSTABed unboosted Close Combat is the easiest way of not using that trait.

Pokemon is way more complicated than "my opponent's Pokemon has 25% chance of clicking any of its 4 moves". That's why I didn't mention Gengar as a check, despite the fact it's immune to half of its moves and x4 resists U-turn.

Also who mentioned Pursuit? if checks were based on "can this Pokemon Pursuit trap this Pokemon", Ribombee would be A+ in the viability ranks and Hydreigon would be king of UU again.

Staraptor is a Pokemon that kills itself in two turns, it's weak to Stealth Rock, and has almost no switch in opportunity. Forcing it out is cripples it and then something else of your team has to tank a hit / deal with +2 Bisharp / etc anyway

Given that Bisharp and Mega Aero are extremely shaky and unreliable "checks" I would argue you do.
According to you.

If your offensive team has none of these things (which are all commonly seen in offense and most run multiple of them):

- Any of the Pokemon I mentioned
- Pokemon with priority
- Pokemon that can tank any hit and KO
- Sash Alakazam
- Faster Scarf user
- Mega Sharpedo

Then the problem isn't that Staraptor forces you to bend over backwards to have a chance to play around it. The problem is that your offensive team is absolute garbage.

You act as if I suggested you to run Stunfisk or Intimidate Luxray in offense.

Alright, there are a couple issues I have with this paragraph. First when talking about Raptor's rock weakness, specifically how it can be used against it when running balance, you fail to mention that Raptor gets a free switch in vs. balance's most common rockers! Hippo commonly carries no move to hit Raptor, Stealth Rock Gliscor usually carries no move to hit it (after Rocks / Roost / EQ it's usually one of U-Turn / Taunt / Toxic), Cobalion and Empoleon both are OHKOed by Band CC and neither can OHKO Raptor anyways, even if it is Scarf. So for balance getting up rocks vs. Raptor, particularly band Raptor, is fundamentally hard to do to begin with without allowing Raptor in for free to collect a kill.
I failed to mention what????

Quoting myself: "Another thing is that Gliscor and Hippowdon, two of the few Pokemon that let Staraptor switch in for free, can Roost / Slack Off stall it while it kills itself in 3 turns and stay reasonably healthy; however this depends on EVs, but it's less about running max def and more about nut running max sdef."

Emphasis mine.

252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Hippowdon: 244-288 (58.2 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Max Brave Bird does 68.7% (288 HP), which means Staraptor takes 96 HP recoil (30.8%) + 6.25% (switch in) + 6.25% from SandStorm for a total of 43.3%. That means Staraptor 3HKO itself if it is at 100%, 2HKO if it takes Stealth Rock damage. So best case scenario, you get 3 Brave Bird off vs Hippowdown

68.7% - 50% - 6.25% = 12.45% x 3 = 37.35%

You are trading Staraptor for 37.35% damage if you get max rolls 3 times in a row.

252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 216-255 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

Max Brave Bird does 72% (255 HP), which means Staraptor takes 85 HP (27.33%). Staraptor 4HKOes itself if it is at 100%, 3HKO after Stealth Rock or if it switches into Toxic.

72% - 50% - 12.5% = 9.5 x 4 = 38%

You are trading Staraptor for 38% damage if you get max rolls 4 times in a row

Those are the "safe switch-ins"

0 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Staraptor: 144-169 (46.3 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Cobalion All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 322-379 (103.5 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 204-240 (65.5 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Those are the others. That's not a "safe switch in".

Also the fuck is the Cobalion mention? Literally best case scenario for Staraptor is locking itself into Close Combat after Cobalion setups Stealth Rocks and does 65.5% before dying to a good roll.

I don't see the "fundamentally hard" part anywhere.
Also it is completely untrue that Raptor only fits on offense. It's perfectly viable on balance. My aforementioned friend had it on a balance team with Healing Wish Lati which enabled it to brutally punish opposing balance and stall. I myself have used Scarf Raptor on a a sand balance team where it put in a ton of work.
Brutally punish as in gets another kill after Latias kills itself? Try doing that with a strong setup sweeper that doesn't die in two turns and you get better results.

Scarf user that offers nothing defensively, Stealth Rock weak, dies in two turns (Sandstorm chip doesn't help), slower than most major scarfers and +1 Mega Sharpedo. I'm sure it works, but let's not pretend it offers anything but the potential to trade kills vs offense.

I would argue Bisharp is not a real offensive check for the reasons I outlined above, the next five I bolded are borderline unviable mons that are only used to check Raptor which I would argue is proof it's broken (Diance can also be used on Trick Room teams but is only used outside of Trick Room for its potential to check Raptor.) Talking about what the meta will be like in April or whether Megalix will even be UU (I think it has potential to stay OU because meta changes from ORAS to SUMO have been very favorable for it but I don't want to go off on a tangent) are theory moning and should not be relevant.
Bronzong checks/counters Mega Aerodactyl, Alakazam, Clefable, Crobat, Flygon, Latias, Metagross, Necrozma, Sylveon, Togekiss and Staraptor.

Gigalith checks/counters Mega Aerodactyl, Alakazam, Arcanine, Azelf, Crobat, Gengar, Hydreigon, Latias, Mandibuzz, Hydreigon, Necrozma, Alola Nineteas, Raikou, Togekiss and Staraptor.

Rhyperior checks/counters Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Absol, Arcanine, Crobat, Magneton, Mandibuzz, Raikou, Togekiss and Staraptor. Lots of exploitable weaknesses, as usual, but it is a Stealth Rock user with strong offensive presence.

Diancie checks Mega Absol, Mega Aerodactyl, Arcaninee, Bewear, Chandelure, Conkeldurr, Crobat, Hydreigon, Infernape, Kommo-O, Latias, Mandibuzz, Mega Sharpedo, Togekiss. Additionally provides Heal Bell support and if you want to run a shitty gimmick, you can run Trick Room + Explosion.

Steelix checks Mega Absol, Mega Aerodactyl, Bisharp, Clefable, Crobat, Decidueye, Latias, Raikou, Scizor, Sylveon, Togekiss and Staraptor. Also in case you didn't realize it, I mentioned Steelix as part of my argument. The Mega Steelix mention was a side note; saying Mega Steelix is going to be released in a couple months and that it'll be a better version of Steelix, which is viable right now (literally pointed that out in my post) isn't "theorymon", it's a fact.

Those Pokemon are viable. If you don't want to use them you still have Doublade, which literally works in any playstyle.

For the last part I bolded this isn't true. Hippo has to run 172 SpDef to wall Raikou and with that spread takes 75% from band CC. SpDef Gliscor takes 85+% and even PhysDef Gliscor takes 70~%.

In conclusion ban this garbage. Bless up.
Try fact checking before claiming something is untrue. Took me 3 min to do and add to this post the math needed to prove Staraptor doesn't beat standard Hippo or physically defensive Gliscor if it switches into them.
 
I don't usually contribute to these types of threads but I felt compelled to give my two cents and respond to this post because Raptor is honestly the most broken mon I've ever seen in UU discounting alpha.



(emphasis mine)

Err, basically what you just said was that even in bad matchups Raptor can trade 1:1 which isn't even bad. A lot of top scarfers in tier (such as Keldeo, for example) can't even trade 1:1 vs. stall and rarely get as many kills as consistently as Ratpor does vs. other playstyles.

Also with proper support Raptor can do a ton vs. stall. One of my friends owned stall with Band Raptor because he had it paired with Healing Wish Lati. All he had to do was play smart and wait for the right time to bring it in and he collected a kill every time... then when it was low he brought it back to full and finished the game.



(emphasis mine)

252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 496-584 (183 - 215.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 141-167 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO

Two of the four switch ins you named can't even switch in (Mega Aero can't switch in reliably even if rocks *aren't* up) and the other two are frankly niche mons that aren't particularly good right now outside of checking Raptor -- and I would argue being forced to use mons like that purely out of the need to check one threat is proof Ratpor is broken.

If you're saying Raptor can be pursuit trapped by those two then it can't be done reliably. Pursuit can only force a 50/50 and even if the Pursuit user gets the 50/50 right Raptor doesn't die. Mega Aero's pursuit does 50~% if Raptor switches out and AV Sharp's does 60~%. So basically for Bisharp and Mega Aero to be your team's Raptor "check" you have to sack a mon to get them in for free since they can't switch in AND get a 50/50 right AND even then Raptor is probably still going to be alive and easily can get at least one more kill later on.



(emphasis mine)

Given that Bisharp and Mega Aero are extremely shaky and unreliable "checks" I would argue you do.



(emphasis mine)

Alright, there are a couple issues I have with this paragraph. First when talking about Raptor's rock weakness, specifically how it can be used against it when running balance, you fail to mention that Raptor gets a free switch in vs. balance's most common rockers! Hippo commonly carries no move to hit Raptor, Stealth Rock Gliscor usually carries no move to hit it (after Rocks / Roost / EQ it's usually one of U-Turn / Taunt / Toxic), Cobalion and Empoleon both are OHKOed by Band CC and neither can OHKO Raptor anyways, even if it is Scarf. So for balance getting up rocks vs. Raptor, particularly band Raptor, is fundamentally hard to do to begin with without allowing Raptor in for free to collect a kill.

Also it is completely untrue that Raptor only fits on offense. It's perfectly viable on balance. My aforementioned friend had it on a balance team with Healing Wish Lati which enabled it to brutally punish opposing balance and stall. I myself have used Scarf Raptor on a a sand balance team where it put in a ton of work.



(emphasis mine)

I would argue Bisharp is not a real offensive check for the reasons I outlined above, the next five I bolded are borderline unviable mons that are only used to check Raptor which I would argue is proof it's broken (Diance can also be used on Trick Room teams but is only used outside of Trick Room for its potential to check Raptor.) Talking about what the meta will be like in April or whether Megalix will even be UU (I think it has potential to stay OU because meta changes from ORAS to SUMO have been very favorable for it but I don't want to go off on a tangent) is theory moning and should not be relevant.

For the last part I bolded this isn't true. Hippo has to run 172 SpDef to wall Raikou and with that spread takes 75~% from band CC. SpDef Gliscor takes 85+% and even PhysDef Gliscor takes 70~%.

In conclusion ban this garbage. Bless up.
Damn bro thanks for adding that calc vs bisharp. I thought for sure it would live a CC.
 
Damn bro thanks for adding that calc vs bisharp. I thought for sure it would live a CC.
Np bro. I'd think it was obvious it died but then people go and tout it as a Raptor check even though it can't kill and dies in return. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No what I said what that if you don't get the OHKO with Staraptor, it get KOed; also known as "x Pokemon traded hits with Staraptors and came out on top". I didn't say "trade kills", which isn't necessarily good when that's not even guaranteed.



Emphasis mine. You are talking about Band to argue against a statement that literally starts with: The Choice Scarf set
Uh, then you said something factually incorrect since Raptor failing to get a OHKO does not kill it? Especially not vs. stall? Assuming you bring it at the right time, i.e. on something that can't stay in on it you can BB the switch in and have huge potential to 2HKO something with a little prior damage. Also you don't die to recoil after one attack? Not even close.

Also your sentence could have been interpreted to mean either the Scarf set or Raptor in general, I don't know why you're getting snippy with me when your own sloppy grammar caused the misunderstanding.

Yes, the offensive Pokemon with x4 Fighting-type weakness tends to dislike switching into Close Combat. That's kinda why I said "check" and not "hard counters".
It doesn't check it, which was my point. Even if it gets a free switch neither Pursuit or Sucker Punch OHKO so grats you do 50% with Pursuit or 50% with Sucker IF you get the 50/50 right and 0% if you get it wrong. Nice "check."

Again, every trade in which you don't get the OHKO you die and Close Combat is by far Staraptor riskiest move in that aspect, so are you going to click Close Combat vs the Specs Keldeo predicting the Bisharp switch in? if Keldeo stays in you lose what is likely to be your only scarfer. Another thing is that Close Combat is the only move that keeps Staraptor in the field; U-turn switches it out and its STAB make it kill itself in two turns. Maybe that sounds good on paper, but one of the reasons Scarf Staraptor is good vs offense is the fact that it rarely becomes setup fodder, and getting locked into unSTABed unboosted Close Combat is the easiest way of not using that trait.
(emphasis mine)

Uh, yes if you mispredict and play like an idiot you won't win. That's true of every single single mon on the planet. You could drop Ho Oh to UU but if I bring it on Stone Edge I could still lose while using it. I don't see how "if you get outpredicted you lose" is a coherent argument that Raptor isn't broken.

Also Bisharp takes nearly 50% from Scarf BB so you need only a teensy bit of prior damage to not even need to predict. Additionally if it's not Pursuit Sharp you can easily just BB anyways.

Pokemon is way more complicated than "my opponent's Pokemon has 25% chance of clicking any of its 4 moves". That's why I didn't mention Gengar as a check, despite the fact it's immune to half of its moves and x4 resists U-turn.
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Nowhere in my comment did I treat this like it was the case.

Also who mentioned Pursuit? if checks were based on "can this Pokemon Pursuit trap this Pokemon", Ribombee would be A+ in the viability ranks and Hydreigon would be king of UU again.
Once again I was having trouble understanding what exactly you were saying because of your sloppy grammar. I simply covered all my bases by refuting every possible argument I thought you might be attempting to make.

Staraptor is a Pokemon that kills itself in two turns, it's weak to Stealth Rock, and has almost no switch in opportunity. Forcing it out is cripples it and then something else of your team has to tank a hit / deal with +2 Bisharp / etc anyway
Once again this ignores that most common Rockers give Raptor a free switch in so "[Raptor] has almost no switch in opportunity" is blatantly wrong and also getting Rocks up vs. Raptor is difficult to do in the first place.

Also if your team doesn't have a way to deal with +2 Sharp your team is garabge and you should can it.

If your offensive team has none of these things (which are all commonly seen in offense and most run multiple of them):

- Any of the Pokemon I mentioned
- Pokemon with priority
- Pokemon that can tank any hit and KO
- Sash Alakazam
- Faster Scarf user
- Mega Sharpedo
-Addressed in my previous comment
-Common priority users like Bisharp don't come anywhere close to OHKOing Raptor and as such do not revenge reliably.
-If you leave your Raptor in in this situation you're a moron. Like I said earlier "if the Raptor user plays like an idiot it's not a threat" is not a good argument.
-Sash Alakazam is a good offensive check, yeah, but it literally offensively checks every single physical attacker in the tier now. That does not mean Raptor isn't broken.
-Faster Scarf user (=Keldeo) forces Raptor out, yeah, I don't know why this is an argument it's not broken. Sash Zam and Scarf Keld both forced out Victini too (and Victini didn't get a free switch in vs. common Rockers like Raptor does.)
-Mega Shark is a threat to offense. News at 11.


You act as if I suggested you to run Stunfisk or Intimidate Luxray in offense.
No, I acted as if you asked me to run regular Diancie, regular Steelix, and Rhyperior.


I failed to mention what????

Quoting myself: "Another thing is that Gliscor and Hippowdon, two of the few Pokemon that let Staraptor switch in for free, can Roost / Slack Off stall it while it kills itself in 3 turns and stay reasonably healthy; however this depends on EVs, but it's less about running max def and more about nut running max sdef."

Emphasis mine.
You mentioned it in a different context, not in relation to how easy it was to get up rocks vs. Raptor where it was relevant.

252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Hippowdon: 244-288 (58.2 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Max Brave Bird does 68.7% (288 HP), which means Staraptor takes 96 HP recoil (30.8%) + 6.25% (switch in) + 6.25% from SandStorm for a total of 43.3%. That means Staraptor 3HKO itself if it is at 100%, 2HKO if it takes Stealth Rock damage. So best case scenario, you get 3 Brave Bird off vs Hippowdown

68.7% - 50% - 6.25% = 12.45% x 3 = 37.35%

You are trading Staraptor for 37.35% damage if you get max rolls 3 times in a row.

252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 216-255 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

Max Brave Bird does 72% (255 HP), which means Staraptor takes 85 HP (27.33%). Staraptor 4HKOes itself if it is at 100%, 3HKO after Stealth Rock or if it switches into Toxic.

72% - 50% - 12.5% = 9.5 x 4 = 38%

You are trading Staraptor for 38% damage if you get max rolls 4 times in a row

Those are the "safe switch-ins"

0 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Staraptor: 144-169 (46.3 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Cobalion All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 322-379 (103.5 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 204-240 (65.5 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Those are the others. That's not a "safe switch in".
Jolly Band??? Why are you calcing with bad sets. Literally all you have to do is click on "Starpator (ORAS OU Choice Band)" and it comes up as Adamant because that's literally the only good nature on Band (precisely because of these calcs you just showed.)

I don't see the "fundamentally hard" part anywhere.
You edited calc to be a bad nature so yeah, I don't either.

Bronzong checks/counters Mega Aerodactyl, Alakazam, Clefable, Crobat, Flygon, Latias, Metagross, Necrozma, Sylveon, Togekiss and Staraptor.

Gigalith checks/counters Mega Aerodactyl, Alakazam, Arcanine, Azelf, Crobat, Gengar, Hydreigon, Latias, Mandibuzz, Hydreigon, Necrozma, Alola Nineteas, Raikou, Togekiss and Staraptor.

Rhyperior checks/counters Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Absol, Arcanine, Crobat, Magneton, Mandibuzz, Raikou, Togekiss and Staraptor. Lots of exploitable weaknesses, as usual, but it is a Stealth Rock user with strong offensive presence.

Diancie checks Mega Absol, Mega Aerodactyl, Arcaninee, Bewear, Chandelure, Conkeldurr, Crobat, Hydreigon, Infernape, Kommo-O, Latias, Mandibuzz, Mega Sharpedo, Togekiss. Additionally provides Heal Bell support and if you want to run a shitty gimmick, you can run Trick Room + Explosion.

Steelix checks Mega Absol, Mega Aerodactyl, Bisharp, Clefable, Crobat, Decidueye, Latias, Raikou, Scizor, Sylveon, Togekiss and Staraptor. Also in case you didn't realize it, I mentioned Steelix as part of my argument. The Mega Steelix mention was a side note; saying Mega Steelix is going to be released in a couple months and that it'll be a better version of Steelix, which is viable right now (literally pointed that out in my post) isn't "theorymon", it's a fact.

Those Pokemon are viable. If you don't want to use them you still have Doublade, which literally works in any playstyle.
There would essentially never be a reason to run any of these mons over other more widely viable mons if not for Raptor.

Try fact checking before claiming something is untrue. Took me 3 min to do and add to this post the math needed to prove Staraptor doesn't beat standard Hippo or physically defensive Gliscor if it switches into them.
It took you three minutes to edit the calc to be a bad set and then c/p? I'd think that'd take thirty seconds tops. Did you need a few minutes to come up with the idea of changing the calc after the initial calc showed I was right?
 
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Freeroamer

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The ORAS OU set has Choice Band as Adamant so obviously that's the only good spread, not like I enjoy outspeeding Krookodile and Hydreigon as well as giving myself the best shot vs the fuckton of 100s including the mirror kek, something that's vital if Staraptor is as unreasonable to deal with as you seem to be putting it across as...
 
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Hikari

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Uh, then you said something factually incorrect since Raptor failing to get a OHKO does not kill it? Especially not vs. stall? Assuming you bring it at the right time, i.e. on something that can't stay in on it you can BB the switch in and have huge potential to 2HKO something with a little prior damage. Also you don't die to recoil after one attack? Not even close.

Also your sentence could have been interpreted to mean either the Scarf set or Raptor in general, I don't know why you're getting snippy with me when your own sloppy grammar caused the misunderstanding.
Again, trading hits. As in both Pokemon hit each other. As in Staraptor uses a move against a Pokemon it doesn't KO (not a Pokemon switching out or a Pokemon it can OHKO) and then the other Pokemon hits back. As in:

-1 252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krookodile: 178-211 (53.7 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Krookodile lives

252 Atk Black Glasses Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 237-279 (76.2 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Krookodile kills

I'm sure that it survives some scenarios like that with 10%~ if Stealth Rock isn't up, but the point is that Staraptor almost never comes out on top in situations like that.

"The Choice Scarf set (subject) is good vs offense, but it's (pronoun) a complete liability against bulky..."

Not only that, but that entire paragraph clearly talks about Scarf Staraptor, which means that was the main focus. Choice Band Staraptor is specifically mentioned in the next paragraph. Even if the pronoun right after the subject wasn't enough, basic reading comprehension should tell you exactly what was being talked about in that context.

It doesn't check it, which was my point. Even if it gets a free switch neither Pursuit or Sucker Punch OHKO so grats you do 50% with Pursuit or 50% with Sucker IF you get the 50/50 right and 0% if you get it wrong. Nice "check.
252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 111-131 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Staraptor takes 25%~ after hitting Bisharp twice and doesn't KO.

252 Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 205-243 (65.9 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If you predict right you kill Staraptor. If you predict wrong the switch in gets smacked by Knock Off, which can be crippling depending on the Pokemon. Bisharp can switch in again later into Staraptor and revenge kill even if low with Sucker Punch. If you force Staraptor out twice without letting it get a kill you have done more than enough to ruin it.

Uh, yes if you mispredict and play like an idiot you won't win. That's true of every single single mon on the planet. You could drop Ho Oh to UU but if I bring it on Stone Edge I could still lose while using it. I don't see how "if you get outpredicted you lose" is a coherent argument that Raptor isn't broken.
You are using "if you get outpredicted you lose" as an argument that Staraptor is broken. I'm pointing it out that in high level games (ie not random ladder games) the prediction argument goes both ways. I'm sure you believe I don't know what high level games are



But while all you contributions to SPL are unimportant posts, I'm tied to most SPL wins total (3) and only one loss (as a player) in playoff despite getting into finals 4 times. So let's not do a dick measuring contest, because let me assure you that mine is bigger.

Also Bisharp takes nearly 50% from Scarf BB so you need only a teensy bit of prior damage to not even need to predict. Additionally if it's not Pursuit Sharp you can easily just BB anyways.
And Bisharp only needs Stealth Rock to get rid of Staraptor even if you get good rolls.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Nowhere in my comment did I treat this like it was the case.
"Bisharp isn't a check because it can't switch into the only move Staraptor doesn't like using"

Once again I was having trouble understanding what exactly you were saying because of your sloppy grammar. I simply covered all my bases by refuting every possible argument I thought you might be attempting to make.
"Additionally, even offense has some fairly reliable ways of playing around it, like priority (even if you don't get the OHKO, Staraptor kills itself), Bisharp, Metagross, Doublade, Mega Aerodactyl (can't directly switch-in if rocks are up), faster scarf users, every Pokemon Staraptor can't OHKO at full."

Literally a basic list. What was so hard to understand?

-Addressed in my previous comment
-Common priority users like Bisharp don't come anywhere close to OHKOing Raptor and as such do not revenge reliably.
-If you leave your Raptor in in this situation you're a moron. Like I said earlier "if the Raptor user plays like an idiot it's not a threat" is not a good argument.
-Sash Alakazam is a good offensive check, yeah, but it literally offensively checks every single physical attacker in the tier now. That does not mean Raptor isn't broken.
-Faster Scarf user (=Keldeo) forces Raptor out, yeah, I don't know why this is an argument it's not broken. Sash Zam and Scarf Keld both forced out Victini too (and Victini didn't get a free switch in vs. common Rockers like Raptor does.)
-Mega Shark is a threat to offense. News at 11.
Gets a list of way of playing around Staraptor with offense, which is pretty much how offense deals with most threats, and tries to be snarky. K

No, I acted as if you asked me to run regular Diancie, regular Steelix, and Rhyperior.
Coincidentally that list is lacking the most viable Pokemon I listed.

You mentioned it in a different context, not in relation to how easy it was to get up rocks vs. Raptor where it was relevant.

Jolly Band??? Why are you calcing with bad sets. Literally all you have to do is click on "Starpator (ORAS OU Choice Band)" and it comes up as Adamant because that's literally the only good nature on Band (precisely because of these calcs you just showed.)

You edited calc to be a bad nature so yeah, I don't either.

There would essentially never be a reason to run any of these mons over other more widely viable mons if not for Raptor.

It took you three minutes to edit the calc to be a bad set and then c/p? I'd think that'd take thirty seconds tops. Did you need a few minutes to come up with the idea of changing the calc after the initial calc showed I was right?
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 237-279 (66.9 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

99 HP (29.9%)

78.8% - 50% - 12.5% = 16.3% x 4 = 65.2%

252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Hippowdon: 268-316 (63.9 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

105.33 (33.84%)

75.4% - 50% - 6.5 = 18.9 x 3 = 56.7%

The superior set (that was made in 2014 for OU; a tier that had less than 2% Raptor usage) doesn't beat them either, even if once again I'm only assuming absolute perfect conditions for Staraptor (e: forgot a small thing and constant near max rolls can be a problem, but realistically that's more than unreliable. That's on me tho). And now you are slower than offensive Celebi, Hydreigon, Krookodile, Staraptor running the inferior set, Haxorus, Lucario, Roserade, Sylvally (which is fairly gimmick, but surprisingly decent), and slower than base univested base 60s when para, which is super specific, but makes things like switching into Amoonguss (after Spore) riskier and gives you less ways of punishing Clefable by tanking the predicted Twave.

and just so you know



The "superior set", i.e the "Staraptor (ORAS OU Choice Band)" set doesn't run Close Combat according to you. So I guess Empoleon now setups rocks and goes down with you every single time, which means Staraptor loses to every single one of the Stealth Rock users you mentioned.

Keep being edgy, trying to excuse your lack of reading comprehension, claiming things as facts without even bothering to verify them yourself, and circlejerking with your buddies. I'm done talking about Staraptor anyway.
 
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This would be a pleasant surprise if Staraptor ended up in UU this gen. I am finding it not as broken as I initially thought. Yeah, it's good, but I am a lot more fearful of things like SD Bisharp and SubCM Raikou than raptor. The sets I've seen are either scarfed or banded. The banded set is hard to switch into, but that's the whole point. I would compare it to something like LO/CB Mienshao from BW2 UU, but Raptor seems to have fewer viable pivots. The things that can /sort/ of switch in are like Aero and Doublade, whereas in BW2 UU, Crobat, Nidoqueen, and Heracross were all decent answers to Mienshao, no matter what the set. The scarfed set is great, but it just falls short of being faster than Jolly Mega Sharpedo and things like Scarf Infernape/Keldeo, tho it does outspeed things like Scarf Hydregon, which is always nice. The biggest issue I have is that Scarf Raptor still does a ton of work against some balanced teams, like it just OHKS Raikou after rocks and stuff, which I know doesn't seem like a big deal, but it does pack a huge punch for something that's non-boosted.

On a related note, when is true love's funeral? because hikari just laid him down oml
 

esche

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hi there esteemed rotating council member esche checking in. here are some things i noticed when playing with and vs raptor + my overall opinion on it:
  • people are finally packing reliable flying resists in a tier where togekiss exists
  • sr weakness sucks balls for a mon that loses a good chunk of health every time it clicks its most powerful moves
  • priority is everywhere with scizor, bisharp and klefki around which annoys raptor a lot
  • it'll almost always have taken dmg early on and therefore be susceptible to being picked off from priority or faster threats (or things that take a hit)
  • as normal/flying isnt exactly a great defensive typing, switch-in opportunities are rather scarce and very much combined with risking its already limited longevity
  • band pretty much gets a kill if you can maneuver it in safely unless the opponent packs a sturdy resist (eg doublade, diancie, zonger)
  • nothing new here: scarf is amazing vs offense and can either punch a whole early on or clean late game
  • its only sets being band and scarf make it more easy to be taken advantage of and it will never ever do anything unexpected
  • it is by now means as unbearable like victini in the sense that it can pick the set/coverage move to beat specific checks/act as a potent lure - raptor doesnt have that freedom you're pretty much stuck with clicking bb/edge or u-turn (not that that makes it bad lol its still one hell of a mon)
  • even tho the power increase is appealing adamant isnt worth it from my experience - base 100 is too important of a benchmark to hit - on both sets
  • it is undoubtedly another threat to consider when building and there are a lot of those already. not sure how were going to deal with all the other suspects that are yet to come if we dont check whether some things that are the tier already have an unhealthy effect on the state of the game rn.
one of the things ppl should remember imo is that even tho raptor had few decent switchins in the meta we played before it dropped, the new meta will have (and it already has to some degree see all the doubade lol) to adapt to it. your old team doesnt cut it anymore versus raptor? well ok how about trying some new shit then and seeing how you can deal with it instead of bitching all day long about how broken it supposedly is? i hate that some ppl are refering to stuff like gigalith, diancie and bronzong as unviable picks outside of dealing w/ raptor raptor bc come on that clearly isnt the case (see hikaris list above) and a statement like that simply shows blatant ignorance and laziness. im not saying that raptor should be unbanned (im still not entirely convinced what im going to be voting) but dont just shrugg everything from bl off with "omg this thing kills everything on the team i used before it dropped its clearly broken" without ever trying to adapt to it first. i heavily disagree with deeming raptor broken bc it has no "viable" checks.

excuse the the slopppy look of this post but its 3am for me rn i might edit this to look better tomorrow but for now im outie peace :^)
 
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No opinion on the burd overall yet, but how are people making Scarf work? I tried it for a minute and very quickly realized that it misses out on a bunch of things that I need it to be able to RK. Mega-Shark, a bunch of weather sweepers, Mienshao...base 100 just doesn't seem like the important benchmark IMO at this point.
 

A Cake Wearing A Hat

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this definitely isn't just propaganda in an attempt to help convince the council so I can keep using birdspam

I agree with many of the other recent posts made: I've tried both raptor sets extensively, and have found that the scarf set is rather useless versus bulky teams and the band set is complete deadweight versus a lot of hyper offense just because of its only okay speed in this tier dominated by base 108s and 115s. Neither version of raptor can really switch into anything at all. It's weak to stealth rocks and also kills itself with all of its best moves. Unlike Victini, there are surefire checks and counters to it no matter what set it is.
Both raptor sets are also hard-walled by doublade, but what's new?

On the topic of that, I have to say that a good 90% of the Staraptors I saw on ladder used scarf rather than band. I personally believe that Staraptor makes an inferior scarfer compared to several other scarfers in the tier (Keldeo, Infernape, Mienshao, Hydra, Gengar) simply due to the rocks weakness and inability to switch in on anything that it can actually kill. So, I'm rather confused as to why scarf is by far the most popular set on it.

Overall, while Raptor certainly is a strong offensive presence, I've found that it's definitely nowhere near as broken as people are making it out to be.
 

Kink

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I think this discussion has reached the limits of productivity (and probably did so before my last reply.) I only wanted to give my two cents about Raptor. I shouldn't have lost my temper in my second reply (although tbf it was in response to Hikari getting snippy for no reason.)

I'll just say whoever leaked a completely out of context log from a private Discord in an attempt to start drama should be ashamed of themselves (I am already aware of who it was, and they will be dealt with in an appropriate fashion to ensure such incidents do not happen in the future.)
I'm not sure why I'm saying this in 2017, but don't threaten users when using our subforum please.

Derailing aside, I think Raptor, while somewhat flawed when compared to other clearly BL Pokes, has hit a level where almost any team benefits from using it, as there are very few reasons not to. The raw power of BOTH sets create a ripple effect in stale teambuilding, which in my opinion is the biggest problem with this tier right now. I'm not going to go into an in-depth analysis because it's all be said already, but my decision to (likely) ban Staraptor is because I think UU needs more variety, both in strategy and 'mon diversity. nuff said.
 

CoolStoryBrobat

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Man...I'm late lol. It took me a while to get my thoughts together and most the guys above me have covered a lot of points I would have liked to say on Staraptor, I just wanna chime in and say I feel it's not as bad as people have been speculating. I started off testing the Scarf set, which as everyone knows, is real good against Offense. But in my time of using it, I haven't so much as felt is was "broken" as I have felt "wow this is a really good revenge killer/scarfer" since it's pretty effective at doing its job...In those games where Scarf Raptor was putting in the most work, it wasn't exactly nuking teams apart...it got maybe a kill or two against an offensive mon, clicked some Brave Bird here, some U-turn there, then stayed in the back most of the time because it barely switched in on anything that wasn't a predicted Ghost/Ground move. Even after doing its job of hitting pretty hard/bodying offensive mons, Stealth Rock + suicidal recoil usually took its toll on Staraptor...this was especially true if the target happened to be anything remotely bulky, such as Gliscor, Clefable, or Blissey. Usually raptor was done after punching a hole in them, due to how much recoil it dealt upon itself....But all in all, Scarf Staraptor felt just like using any other Choice Scarf user for real. The only big thing is that aside from the hazards + recoil killing my Staraptor for the opponent, opposing Offense didn't have a lot outside of priority, faster scarfers, or Pursuit for keeping the bird in check due to how good base 100 Scarf + Reckless Brave Bird (the move you honestly click 90% of the time, U-turn being 8%, and the remaining 2% being either Double-Edge/Close Combat for when you have to actually predict) is against most of the tier.

Just to make sure that I was making an informed vote I also experimented with Choice Banded Staraptor on a VoltTurn team, and it felt like more of the same. The point I made about recoil really killing its longevity just stood out even more to me since CB Raptor's mainstay is killing bulkier Pokemon. While I get that its job is to punch holes in defensive teams for its teammates and die, Staraptor becomes a lot harder to bring out against faster, harder-hitting teams in general, with faster threats like Latias, Raikou, Cobalion, Sharpedo, etc. being extremely common and capable of one-shotting Staraptor with rocks up. Honestly the only way I felt it managed to really still pull its weight against those teams was because of momentum from partners carrying Volt Switch/U-turn getting it in safely on key Pokemon.

I'm trying not to just rehash what everybody else above me on the pro-raptor side of things has said, so I'm focusing on my own personal experiences in light of what I already know about this Pokemon to decide on what my vote will be. It definitely feels like something the metagame can adapt to...What Staraptor lacks in versatility, having only two real sets that both run the exact same moves, it obviously makes up for in raw power...But I don't think raw power alone is enough to put Staraptor over the edge in practice, as opposed to whatever some arbitrary calcs on paper might say.

Also this post from above me kinda caught my attention and I just wanna address it:

Derailing aside, I think Raptor, while somewhat flawed when compared to other clearly BL Pokes, has hit a level where almost any team benefits from using it, as there are very few reasons not to. The raw power of BOTH sets create a ripple effect in stale teambuilding, which in my opinion is the biggest problem with this tier right now. I'm not going to go into an in-depth analysis because it's all be said already, but my decision to (likely) ban Staraptor is because I think UU needs more variety, both in strategy and 'mon diversity. nuff said.
1. I don't think I would be using Staraptor stall anytime soon, my guy haha (Yeah I know you said "almost" but Raptor is strictly for offensive playstyles)
2. Doesn't an influential mon in the tier kind of increase strategy and diversity by causing players to find new mons/methods of preparing for it? Hikari and others above already covered stuff like Steelix, Rhyperior, Diancie, Bronzong, etc....mons I haven't seen used much that would seemingly get a bit of rise in viability in light of Staraptor. It's not as if every team's running only Doublade as Staraptor killer #1, right?

TL;DR: I'm voting to free the bird who's been homeless for 3 gens straight till now
 
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