6ft Torbjorn
formerly JoycapJoshST
I wouldn't call it too much of a blow. you still have Moonlight, after all.
But Moonlight is much less reliable. It has only 8 PP, what is bad on stall teams, not to mention it heals only ~30% of Clefables health under Sandstorm.I wouldn't call it too much of a blow. you still have Moonlight, after all.
For the record, why wouldn't you run 4 HP on this for 502 Counter damage? Not like 4 SpD EVs matters on Zam anyway, much less Sash Zam.Alakazam @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Counter
Simple oversight.For the record, why wouldn't you run 4 HP on this for 502 Counter damage? Not like 4 SpD EVs matters on Zam anyway, much less Sash Zam.
there's Latias, Primarina, and uhhh Ribombee :Ipsst what are offensive fighting checks/pivots? my current raptor HO has 0 fighting switchins and that needs to be fixed D:
I agree that Offensive Scizor is a good set which doesnt quite deserve such a low usage. However, I've been using the bulky SD variant and I honestly think it's so much more than just a decent pivot. Even though it'll end up using Roost a fair bit to be able to reliably check the threats it's supposed to, I feel like its ability to both handle some of the most popular threats of the meta while still applying a good amount of pressure to a lot of teams is nothing to sleep on. The main intereset of the Bulky SD set to me is that it's extremely splashable, it beats some of the most common threats of the meta fairly easily which makes it really easy to just slap on teams simply because it does many things at the same time yet it's still able to accomplish exactly what it's supposed to. U-Turn allows it to take advantage of the things that wall it to allow to bring in extremely threatening wallbreakers such as the Specs variants of Keldeo and Primarina. Setting up is extremely easy for a pokemon as bulky as Scizor and having reliable recovery means it can easily do it multiple times in the same game. At the end of the day Scizor is just one of those mons which can just adapt its set to the team's needs, most of my teams appreciate Bulky Scizor when I need to pivot into things while some others prefer the offensive variant's ability to directly threaten balanced or offensive cores to allow some other offensive threats to put work. I wouldn't say that any of these set is actually better than the other, both are extremely good at what they do which is why I think calling the offensive SD variant Scizor's best is a bit of an overkill.For some reason, one of the most slept on Pokemon in UU:
Most Scizors I've seen have been the bulky SD set, which I feel doesn't take advantage of Scizor's capabilities at all even though it can be a decent pivot. It's stuck between Roosting off moderate attacks like Aerodactyl's Stone Edge, is completely taken advantage by tons and tons of stuff from Keldeo to Tentacruel, and always fears HP Fire from Latias and Flamethrower from Clefable and that kind of stuff. However offensive SD Scizor is an extremely potent sweeper on bulky and hyper offense and doesn't get nearly the usage it deserves. It tanks a hit from most offensive stuff to set up and then proceeds to just run through shit, including nearly any soft check to the bulky SD variant, and I'd say offensive SD is actually Scizor's best set. As a bonus you can also get 2 SDs up when your opponent does something like switch in their own Scizor or Gliscor.
As a matter of fact I really like this post because our experience with Clefable allowed us to make the same statements regarding Clefable yet our opinion on whether it should be banned or not is entirely different. Over the past few weeks I've experienced a fair amount of Clefable variants, from the tank LO set (which is great by the way) to different Calm Mind variants. The issue I have with Clefable is that it's stupidly hard to handle despite its low speed. Basically, depending on what CM Clefable runs as its fourth move you may just see what you use as your best mean to take care of Clef being heavily crippled or weakened. For instance, Tentacruel is known to decently check it but if it happens to have knock off Tenta just loses its only mean of recovery which makes switching into Clefable while still doing its job as a spinner way harder. Another real problem I have with Clefable is that it's splashable to the point where it becomes very unhealthy. In fact, for most teams there is just no reason at all not to use Clefable simply because it deals with a ridiculous amount of threat while also being able to win on it's own with the right conditions which usually arent hard to obtain. I've seen countless games in which the mons supposed to handle Clefable on both team were crippled to the point where both players are forced into a CM war which is either decided by crits or by the use of Twave. (The one with T-wave usually wins rather easily). The aformentioned situation happens way too often to be irrelevant, it's not just people not playing well enough to deal with Clefable it's more that Clefable's overall bulk and typing makes setting up extremely easy to the points where its checks tend to get overwhelmed. Clefable really does make teambuilding much easier but it's just too effective and easy to slap on teams to be healthy in any way. I was personally fine with letting the tier some time to see if it can adapt to Clefable. A month has passed and I'm still far from convinced we should allow Clefable to stay.ok, before i get into the raptor, i have a few things to say on the current state on the meta overall. i know i am going to get a lot of shit and call me stupid etc etc etc for the first part but its honestly how im feeling so whatever.
i think its pretty safe to say that clefable is by far one of the, if not the most splashable and probably the best mon in the meta. it has a lot of sets it can run without having any inherent flaws off the bat, and has literally everything at its disposal to break through a lot of cookie cutter teams depending on your coverage. with that being said a lot of people have been wanting to ban it....
..but with that being said i actually think its healthy for the meta, in a way similar to scizor - it blanket checks such a huge number of threats in the tier, some being fairly overbearing otherwise thus making it really easy to fit on a team. ive also found that there is a pretty good amount of counterplay to it - the nidos are pretty much your best bet vs every variation of clef unless you let it set up too much (lets be realistic, no one is going to run psychic coverage, way too inconsistent for it to be worth it in almost every scenario), offensive checks like gengar, volcanion, cobalion, scizor, and magneton are commonplace in the meta (and i think more are bound to crop up in popularity as the meta develops, i.e. talonflame and entei), and it has trouble breaking through things like amoon / tenta. depending on its spread it opens it up to other things as well - physically defensive sets have trouble vs stuff like prima stoise specs keld lo zam etc and more specially defensive sets cant switch into maero (hone claws is underrated as shit btw that thing is really good at breaking balance) and mega shark as reliably. now obviously like i said earlier it has its ways of getting through the above answers but there are enough ways of dealing with it that make it not as insane as a lot of people (including myself) thought when it dropped.
i think a lot of people are just having problems adapting to it, given how fairies in the past have been, including in oras. everything except maybe sylveon has had some pretty big flaw that is easy to take advantage of, but given how clef can take on its answers its a little hard to get used to teambuilding wise. i mean u cant just slap a zor or a bisharp or whatever and call it a day in terms of prep lol because at that point you are bound to fuck up and lose eventually...as the metagame develops it'll become easier and easier to deal with and prepare for in the builder.
however if there is one thing in particular that i think is pretty fucking stupid about clef, it's its presence on stall teams. unaware sets just patch up so many of the problems that stall teams had that its annoying to break through without certain breakers like infernape. the stall team that Arifeen (i think) used to qualify for ult matches up extremely well vs most teams in the metagame despite being weak to stuff like togekiss, the aformentioned nape, etc. if there is anything that makes me lean towards banning it, its how it makes stall pretty bonkers to face.
i dunno. this post has basically been me rambling but i have been swaying a lot about this thing as of the past few days. maybe the other council members will ban it come next tier shift, maybe i will, maybe it'll move up back to ou ( i dunno how common it is but that toxapex stall team with it chansey dug etc seems to be pretty consistent, but thats besides the point). i just wanted to give my stance on it since i know there are probably some who are adamant on its departure.
(emphasis mine)The Choice Scarf set is good vs offense, but it's a complete liability against bulky teams because it can't switch into anything, gets worn down and it dies in every trade in which it doesn't get the OHKO.
(emphasis mine)Additionally, even offense has some fairly reliable ways of playing around it, like priority (even if you don't get the OHKO, Staraptor kills itself), Bisharp, Metagross, Doublade, Mega Aerodactyl (can't directly switch-in if rocks are up), faster scarf users, every Pokemon Staraptor can't OHKO at full.
(emphasis mine)Scarf Staraptor is really good at forcing trades and revenge killing without becoming a setup fodder to some major threats, but it is far from being anything but just another threat. Honestly, you don't even need to get out of your way to prepare for it, or run "weird" sets or Pokemon.
(emphasis mine)The Choice Band set has some ridiculous power (stronger than Crawdaunt, for reference), but it really isn't particularly threatening against offense, especially when you compare it with faster / less priority weak power houses. However, against balance it can be pretty damn scary if you are not prepared for it, but you can prepare for it without running being "forced to run bad Pokemon". Stealth Rock is your step 1, as long as those are up Staraptor can't switch into anything and kills itself faster, so your opponent is automatically forced to get rid of those, which isn't as simple as clicking Defog when you are running offense (the only playstyle in which Raptor fits in).
(emphasis mine)Offensive checks like Metagross,Bisharpand Doublade work in balance too and this playstyle can afford running more defensive checks, like Bronzong, Gigalith, Rhyperior, Dianice, Steelix (which is actually pretty decent rn, as it checks stuff like Clefable, Latias, Raikou, and Staraptor. And fwiw, Mega Steelix gets released next month, which means it'll be UU in April) and bulky Metagross. Once again, every trade in which Staraptor doesn't get the OHKO ends with it dying, but for obvious reasons the numbers of Pokemon that can pull that off here are smaller than on the Scarf set. Another thing is that Gliscor and Hippowdon, two of the few Pokemon that let Staraptor switch in for free, can Roost / Slack Off stall it while it kills itself in 3 turns and stay reasonably healthy; however this depends on EVs, but it's less about running max def and more about nut running max sdef. And for last, faster stuff like Keldeo, Raikou or Mega Aerodactyl
will either force Raptor out (which is crippling) or OHKO.
No what I said what that if you don't get the OHKO with Staraptor, it get KOed; also known as "x Pokemon traded hits with Staraptors and came out on top". I didn't say "trade kills", which isn't necessarily good when that's not even guaranteed.Err, basically what you just said was that even in bad matchups Raptor can trade 1:1 which isn't even bad. A lot of top scarfers in tier (such as Keldeo, for example) can't even trade 1:1 vs. stall and rarely get as many kills as consistently as Ratpor does vs. other playstyles.
Emphasis mine. You are talking about Band to argue against a statement that literally starts with: The Choice Scarf setAlso with proper support Raptor can do a ton vs. stall. One of my friends owned stall with Band Raptor because he had it paired with Healing Wish Lati. All he had to do was play smart and wait for the right time to bring it in and he collected a kill every time... then when it was low he brought it back to full and finished the game.
Yes, the offensive Pokemon with x4 Fighting-type weakness tends to dislike switching into Close Combat. That's kinda why I said "check" and not "hard counters".252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 496-584 (183 - 215.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 141-167 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
Two of the four switch ins you named can't even switch in (Mega Aero can't switch in reliably even if rocks *aren't* up) and the other two are frankly niche mons that aren't particularly good right now outside of checking Raptor -- and I would argue being forced to use mons like that purely out of the need to check one threat is proof Ratpor is broken.
If you're saying Raptor can be pursuit trapped by those two then it can't be done reliably. Pursuit can only force a 50/50 and even if the Pursuit user gets the 50/50 right Raptor doesn't die. Mega Aero's pursuit does 50~% if Raptor switches out and AV Sharp's does 60~%. So basically for Bisharp and Mega Aero to be your team's Raptor "check" you have to sack a mon to get them in for free since they can't switch in AND get a 50/50 right AND even then Raptor is probably still going to be alive and easily can get at least one more kill later on.
According to you.Given that Bisharp and Mega Aero are extremely shaky and unreliable "checks" I would argue you do.
I failed to mention what????Alright, there are a couple issues I have with this paragraph. First when talking about Raptor's rock weakness, specifically how it can be used against it when running balance, you fail to mention that Raptor gets a free switch in vs. balance's most common rockers! Hippo commonly carries no move to hit Raptor, Stealth Rock Gliscor usually carries no move to hit it (after Rocks / Roost / EQ it's usually one of U-Turn / Taunt / Toxic), Cobalion and Empoleon both are OHKOed by Band CC and neither can OHKO Raptor anyways, even if it is Scarf. So for balance getting up rocks vs. Raptor, particularly band Raptor, is fundamentally hard to do to begin with without allowing Raptor in for free to collect a kill.
Brutally punish as in gets another kill after Latias kills itself? Try doing that with a strong setup sweeper that doesn't die in two turns and you get better results.Also it is completely untrue that Raptor only fits on offense. It's perfectly viable on balance. My aforementioned friend had it on a balance team with Healing Wish Lati which enabled it to brutally punish opposing balance and stall. I myself have used Scarf Raptor on a a sand balance team where it put in a ton of work.
Bronzong checks/counters Mega Aerodactyl, Alakazam, Clefable, Crobat, Flygon, Latias, Metagross, Necrozma, Sylveon, Togekiss and Staraptor.I would argue Bisharp is not a real offensive check for the reasons I outlined above, the next five I bolded are borderline unviable mons that are only used to check Raptor which I would argue is proof it's broken (Diance can also be used on Trick Room teams but is only used outside of Trick Room for its potential to check Raptor.) Talking about what the meta will be like in April or whether Megalix will even be UU (I think it has potential to stay OU because meta changes from ORAS to SUMO have been very favorable for it but I don't want to go off on a tangent) are theory moning and should not be relevant.
Try fact checking before claiming something is untrue. Took me 3 min to do and add to this post the math needed to prove Staraptor doesn't beat standard Hippo or physically defensive Gliscor if it switches into them.For the last part I bolded this isn't true. Hippo has to run 172 SpDef to wall Raikou and with that spread takes 75% from band CC. SpDef Gliscor takes 85+% and even PhysDef Gliscor takes 70~%.
In conclusion ban this garbage. Bless up.
Damn bro thanks for adding that calc vs bisharp. I thought for sure it would live a CC.I don't usually contribute to these types of threads but I felt compelled to give my two cents and respond to this post because Raptor is honestly the most broken mon I've ever seen in UU discounting alpha.
(emphasis mine)
Err, basically what you just said was that even in bad matchups Raptor can trade 1:1 which isn't even bad. A lot of top scarfers in tier (such as Keldeo, for example) can't even trade 1:1 vs. stall and rarely get as many kills as consistently as Ratpor does vs. other playstyles.
Also with proper support Raptor can do a ton vs. stall. One of my friends owned stall with Band Raptor because he had it paired with Healing Wish Lati. All he had to do was play smart and wait for the right time to bring it in and he collected a kill every time... then when it was low he brought it back to full and finished the game.
(emphasis mine)
252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 496-584 (183 - 215.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 141-167 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
Two of the four switch ins you named can't even switch in (Mega Aero can't switch in reliably even if rocks *aren't* up) and the other two are frankly niche mons that aren't particularly good right now outside of checking Raptor -- and I would argue being forced to use mons like that purely out of the need to check one threat is proof Ratpor is broken.
If you're saying Raptor can be pursuit trapped by those two then it can't be done reliably. Pursuit can only force a 50/50 and even if the Pursuit user gets the 50/50 right Raptor doesn't die. Mega Aero's pursuit does 50~% if Raptor switches out and AV Sharp's does 60~%. So basically for Bisharp and Mega Aero to be your team's Raptor "check" you have to sack a mon to get them in for free since they can't switch in AND get a 50/50 right AND even then Raptor is probably still going to be alive and easily can get at least one more kill later on.
(emphasis mine)
Given that Bisharp and Mega Aero are extremely shaky and unreliable "checks" I would argue you do.
(emphasis mine)
Alright, there are a couple issues I have with this paragraph. First when talking about Raptor's rock weakness, specifically how it can be used against it when running balance, you fail to mention that Raptor gets a free switch in vs. balance's most common rockers! Hippo commonly carries no move to hit Raptor, Stealth Rock Gliscor usually carries no move to hit it (after Rocks / Roost / EQ it's usually one of U-Turn / Taunt / Toxic), Cobalion and Empoleon both are OHKOed by Band CC and neither can OHKO Raptor anyways, even if it is Scarf. So for balance getting up rocks vs. Raptor, particularly band Raptor, is fundamentally hard to do to begin with without allowing Raptor in for free to collect a kill.
Also it is completely untrue that Raptor only fits on offense. It's perfectly viable on balance. My aforementioned friend had it on a balance team with Healing Wish Lati which enabled it to brutally punish opposing balance and stall. I myself have used Scarf Raptor on a a sand balance team where it put in a ton of work.
(emphasis mine)
I would argue Bisharp is not a real offensive check for the reasons I outlined above, the next five I bolded are borderline unviable mons that are only used to check Raptor which I would argue is proof it's broken (Diance can also be used on Trick Room teams but is only used outside of Trick Room for its potential to check Raptor.) Talking about what the meta will be like in April or whether Megalix will even be UU (I think it has potential to stay OU because meta changes from ORAS to SUMO have been very favorable for it but I don't want to go off on a tangent) is theory moning and should not be relevant.
For the last part I bolded this isn't true. Hippo has to run 172 SpDef to wall Raikou and with that spread takes 75~% from band CC. SpDef Gliscor takes 85+% and even PhysDef Gliscor takes 70~%.
In conclusion ban this garbage. Bless up.
Np bro. I'd think it was obvious it died but then people go and tout it as a Raptor check even though it can't kill and dies in return. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯Damn bro thanks for adding that calc vs bisharp. I thought for sure it would live a CC.
Uh, then you said something factually incorrect since Raptor failing to get a OHKO does not kill it? Especially not vs. stall? Assuming you bring it at the right time, i.e. on something that can't stay in on it you can BB the switch in and have huge potential to 2HKO something with a little prior damage. Also you don't die to recoil after one attack? Not even close.No what I said what that if you don't get the OHKO with Staraptor, it get KOed; also known as "x Pokemon traded hits with Staraptors and came out on top". I didn't say "trade kills", which isn't necessarily good when that's not even guaranteed.
Emphasis mine. You are talking about Band to argue against a statement that literally starts with: The Choice Scarf set
It doesn't check it, which was my point. Even if it gets a free switch neither Pursuit or Sucker Punch OHKO so grats you do 50% with Pursuit or 50% with Sucker IF you get the 50/50 right and 0% if you get it wrong. Nice "check."Yes, the offensive Pokemon with x4 Fighting-type weakness tends to dislike switching into Close Combat. That's kinda why I said "check" and not "hard counters".
(emphasis mine)Again, every trade in which you don't get the OHKO you die and Close Combat is by far Staraptor riskiest move in that aspect, so are you going to click Close Combat vs the Specs Keldeo predicting the Bisharp switch in? if Keldeo stays in you lose what is likely to be your only scarfer. Another thing is that Close Combat is the only move that keeps Staraptor in the field; U-turn switches it out and its STAB make it kill itself in two turns. Maybe that sounds good on paper, but one of the reasons Scarf Staraptor is good vs offense is the fact that it rarely becomes setup fodder, and getting locked into unSTABed unboosted Close Combat is the easiest way of not using that trait.
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Nowhere in my comment did I treat this like it was the case.Pokemon is way more complicated than "my opponent's Pokemon has 25% chance of clicking any of its 4 moves". That's why I didn't mention Gengar as a check, despite the fact it's immune to half of its moves and x4 resists U-turn.
Once again I was having trouble understanding what exactly you were saying because of your sloppy grammar. I simply covered all my bases by refuting every possible argument I thought you might be attempting to make.Also who mentioned Pursuit? if checks were based on "can this Pokemon Pursuit trap this Pokemon", Ribombee would be A+ in the viability ranks and Hydreigon would be king of UU again.
Once again this ignores that most common Rockers give Raptor a free switch in so "[Raptor] has almost no switch in opportunity" is blatantly wrong and also getting Rocks up vs. Raptor is difficult to do in the first place.Staraptor is a Pokemon that kills itself in two turns, it's weak to Stealth Rock, and has almost no switch in opportunity. Forcing it out is cripples it and then something else of your team has to tank a hit / deal with +2 Bisharp / etc anyway
-Addressed in my previous commentIf your offensive team has none of these things (which are all commonly seen in offense and most run multiple of them):
- Any of the Pokemon I mentioned
- Pokemon with priority
- Pokemon that can tank any hit and KO
- Sash Alakazam
- Faster Scarf user
- Mega Sharpedo
No, I acted as if you asked me to run regular Diancie, regular Steelix, and Rhyperior.You act as if I suggested you to run Stunfisk or Intimidate Luxray in offense.
You mentioned it in a different context, not in relation to how easy it was to get up rocks vs. Raptor where it was relevant.I failed to mention what????
Quoting myself: "Another thing is that Gliscor and Hippowdon, two of the few Pokemon that let Staraptor switch in for free, can Roost / Slack Off stall it while it kills itself in 3 turns and stay reasonably healthy; however this depends on EVs, but it's less about running max def and more about nut running max sdef."
Emphasis mine.
Jolly Band??? Why are you calcing with bad sets. Literally all you have to do is click on "Starpator (ORAS OU Choice Band)" and it comes up as Adamant because that's literally the only good nature on Band (precisely because of these calcs you just showed.)252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Hippowdon: 244-288 (58.2 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Max Brave Bird does 68.7% (288 HP), which means Staraptor takes 96 HP recoil (30.8%) + 6.25% (switch in) + 6.25% from SandStorm for a total of 43.3%. That means Staraptor 3HKO itself if it is at 100%, 2HKO if it takes Stealth Rock damage. So best case scenario, you get 3 Brave Bird off vs Hippowdown
68.7% - 50% - 6.25% = 12.45% x 3 = 37.35%
You are trading Staraptor for 37.35% damage if you get max rolls 3 times in a row.
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 216-255 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Max Brave Bird does 72% (255 HP), which means Staraptor takes 85 HP (27.33%). Staraptor 4HKOes itself if it is at 100%, 3HKO after Stealth Rock or if it switches into Toxic.
72% - 50% - 12.5% = 9.5 x 4 = 38%
You are trading Staraptor for 38% damage if you get max rolls 4 times in a row
Those are the "safe switch-ins"
0 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Staraptor: 144-169 (46.3 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Cobalion All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 322-379 (103.5 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 204-240 (65.5 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Those are the others. That's not a "safe switch in".
You edited calc to be a bad nature so yeah, I don't either.I don't see the "fundamentally hard" part anywhere.
There would essentially never be a reason to run any of these mons over other more widely viable mons if not for Raptor.Bronzong checks/counters Mega Aerodactyl, Alakazam, Clefable, Crobat, Flygon, Latias, Metagross, Necrozma, Sylveon, Togekiss and Staraptor.
Gigalith checks/counters Mega Aerodactyl, Alakazam, Arcanine, Azelf, Crobat, Gengar, Hydreigon, Latias, Mandibuzz, Hydreigon, Necrozma, Alola Nineteas, Raikou, Togekiss and Staraptor.
Rhyperior checks/counters Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Absol, Arcanine, Crobat, Magneton, Mandibuzz, Raikou, Togekiss and Staraptor. Lots of exploitable weaknesses, as usual, but it is a Stealth Rock user with strong offensive presence.
Diancie checks Mega Absol, Mega Aerodactyl, Arcaninee, Bewear, Chandelure, Conkeldurr, Crobat, Hydreigon, Infernape, Kommo-O, Latias, Mandibuzz, Mega Sharpedo, Togekiss. Additionally provides Heal Bell support and if you want to run a shitty gimmick, you can run Trick Room + Explosion.
Steelix checks Mega Absol, Mega Aerodactyl, Bisharp, Clefable, Crobat, Decidueye, Latias, Raikou, Scizor, Sylveon, Togekiss and Staraptor. Also in case you didn't realize it, I mentioned Steelix as part of my argument. The Mega Steelix mention was a side note; saying Mega Steelix is going to be released in a couple months and that it'll be a better version of Steelix, which is viable right now (literally pointed that out in my post) isn't "theorymon", it's a fact.
Those Pokemon are viable. If you don't want to use them you still have Doublade, which literally works in any playstyle.
It took you three minutes to edit the calc to be a bad set and then c/p? I'd think that'd take thirty seconds tops. Did you need a few minutes to come up with the idea of changing the calc after the initial calc showed I was right?Try fact checking before claiming something is untrue. Took me 3 min to do and add to this post the math needed to prove Staraptor doesn't beat standard Hippo or physically defensive Gliscor if it switches into them.
Again, trading hits. As in both Pokemon hit each other. As in Staraptor uses a move against a Pokemon it doesn't KO (not a Pokemon switching out or a Pokemon it can OHKO) and then the other Pokemon hits back. As in:Uh, then you said something factually incorrect since Raptor failing to get a OHKO does not kill it? Especially not vs. stall? Assuming you bring it at the right time, i.e. on something that can't stay in on it you can BB the switch in and have huge potential to 2HKO something with a little prior damage. Also you don't die to recoil after one attack? Not even close.
Also your sentence could have been interpreted to mean either the Scarf set or Raptor in general, I don't know why you're getting snippy with me when your own sloppy grammar caused the misunderstanding.
252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 111-131 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKOIt doesn't check it, which was my point. Even if it gets a free switch neither Pursuit or Sucker Punch OHKO so grats you do 50% with Pursuit or 50% with Sucker IF you get the 50/50 right and 0% if you get it wrong. Nice "check.
You are using "if you get outpredicted you lose" as an argument that Staraptor is broken. I'm pointing it out that in high level games (ie not random ladder games) the prediction argument goes both ways. I'm sure you believe I don't know what high level games areUh, yes if you mispredict and play like an idiot you won't win. That's true of every single single mon on the planet. You could drop Ho Oh to UU but if I bring it on Stone Edge I could still lose while using it. I don't see how "if you get outpredicted you lose" is a coherent argument that Raptor isn't broken.
And Bisharp only needs Stealth Rock to get rid of Staraptor even if you get good rolls.Also Bisharp takes nearly 50% from Scarf BB so you need only a teensy bit of prior damage to not even need to predict. Additionally if it's not Pursuit Sharp you can easily just BB anyways.
"Bisharp isn't a check because it can't switch into the only move Staraptor doesn't like using"I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Nowhere in my comment did I treat this like it was the case.
"Additionally, even offense has some fairly reliable ways of playing around it, like priority (even if you don't get the OHKO, Staraptor kills itself), Bisharp, Metagross, Doublade, Mega Aerodactyl (can't directly switch-in if rocks are up), faster scarf users, every Pokemon Staraptor can't OHKO at full."Once again I was having trouble understanding what exactly you were saying because of your sloppy grammar. I simply covered all my bases by refuting every possible argument I thought you might be attempting to make.
Gets a list of way of playing around Staraptor with offense, which is pretty much how offense deals with most threats, and tries to be snarky. K-Addressed in my previous comment
-Common priority users like Bisharp don't come anywhere close to OHKOing Raptor and as such do not revenge reliably.
-If you leave your Raptor in in this situation you're a moron. Like I said earlier "if the Raptor user plays like an idiot it's not a threat" is not a good argument.
-Sash Alakazam is a good offensive check, yeah, but it literally offensively checks every single physical attacker in the tier now. That does not mean Raptor isn't broken.
-Faster Scarf user (=Keldeo) forces Raptor out, yeah, I don't know why this is an argument it's not broken. Sash Zam and Scarf Keld both forced out Victini too (and Victini didn't get a free switch in vs. common Rockers like Raptor does.)
-Mega Shark is a threat to offense. News at 11.
Coincidentally that list is lacking the most viable Pokemon I listed.No, I acted as if you asked me to run regular Diancie, regular Steelix, and Rhyperior.
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 237-279 (66.9 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison HealYou mentioned it in a different context, not in relation to how easy it was to get up rocks vs. Raptor where it was relevant.
Jolly Band??? Why are you calcing with bad sets. Literally all you have to do is click on "Starpator (ORAS OU Choice Band)" and it comes up as Adamant because that's literally the only good nature on Band (precisely because of these calcs you just showed.)
You edited calc to be a bad nature so yeah, I don't either.
There would essentially never be a reason to run any of these mons over other more widely viable mons if not for Raptor.
It took you three minutes to edit the calc to be a bad set and then c/p? I'd think that'd take thirty seconds tops. Did you need a few minutes to come up with the idea of changing the calc after the initial calc showed I was right?
I'm not sure why I'm saying this in 2017, but don't threaten users when using our subforum please.I think this discussion has reached the limits of productivity (and probably did so before my last reply.) I only wanted to give my two cents about Raptor. I shouldn't have lost my temper in my second reply (although tbf it was in response to Hikari getting snippy for no reason.)
I'll just say whoever leaked a completely out of context log from a private Discord in an attempt to start drama should be ashamed of themselves (I am already aware of who it was, and they will be dealt with in an appropriate fashion to ensure such incidents do not happen in the future.)
1. I don't think I would be using Staraptor stall anytime soon, my guy haha (Yeah I know you said "almost" but Raptor is strictly for offensive playstyles)Derailing aside, I think Raptor, while somewhat flawed when compared to other clearly BL Pokes, has hit a level where almost any team benefits from using it, as there are very few reasons not to. The raw power of BOTH sets create a ripple effect in stale teambuilding, which in my opinion is the biggest problem with this tier right now. I'm not going to go into an in-depth analysis because it's all be said already, but my decision to (likely) ban Staraptor is because I think UU needs more variety, both in strategy and 'mon diversity. nuff said.