np: SUMO UU Stage 1 - Feels Like We Only Go Backwards

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TSR

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First of all, what's the discussion with adamant raptor about? Sure it hits really hard, but losing out on the 100 base speed benchmark when it outpaces stuff like Krookodile and Hydreigon seems a little too important to pass up. It sounds good with scarf maybe, but then you miss out on scarf Hydreigon (the most common set atm).

e: this whole discussion is just me theorizing how I feel Staraptor is gonna fair in the current meta based on my experiences with it in beta, it's certainly subject to change.

As someone who spammed Staraptor a lot near the end of beta, I feel pretty safe saying that scarf is the superior set, at least for the current meta. The power behind band seems cool but scarf still gets pretty convincing 2/3HKOs on a majority of balance and stall staples.
252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 448-528 (62.7 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (doesn't even take recoil damage!)
252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 195-231 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (I know this isn't the common spread but it obviously is a guaranteed 2HKO on anything less that max/max)
252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 127-150 (35.8 - 42.3%) -- 93% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Hippowdon: 163-193 (38.9 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


In addition, there's a whole lot of common Pokemon that can outspeed base 100s, usually with at least 2 or three commonly finding their way onto (bulky) offense playstyles that the meta seems to gravitating toward. Keldeo, Cobalion (which can now OHKO it with a pummel too) Alakazam, Latias, Infernape, a lot of which commonly run scarf too...the list goes on and on. Bisharp, Scizor, SD Decidueye, and some others hit it with priority and such. Being weak to rocks doesn't help it either, since right now hazards are really hard to remove against the right team comp with stuff like Bisharp, Gengar, MAero, etc. In general, this meta is a little better at showing some of raptor's flaws with the really, really common ways of beating it offensively, as well as a good number of bulky mons with recovery that it can't OHKO, which tends to be its major problem in most games.

That being said, Staraptor absolutely shreds offensive teams with scarf sets. the most common steels in Cobalion and Scizor don't even resist flying and stuff like Bisharp can't even really switch in well at all. Only things we really have are Doublade, Metagross, the may I even say it - bad Bronzong and Rhyperior, and Aerodactyl and Empoleon that barely switch into scarf. Just having really really strong Normal- or Flying-type STAB is enough to rocket something up in viability, as we've seen Bewear do over the last week or so. Couple that with ridiculous speed and an ability that actually boosts its offensive power, and it ends up so fast and powerful that its probably gonna do 50 to at least something, and that's even if you play it relatively badly.

tl;dr - Staraptor has some stuff that, in my opinion, that might make it redeemable, since i find that its flaws are a little more easy to exploit in the current meta. Like I've expressed to a few people (haven't posted) about Clefable, it doesn't seem genuinely broken on paper, but i feel as if UU would be a much better metagame without it. So at the moment, I'm hoping that the vote ends up with Staraptor being banned.
 
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When it comes to Staraptor, there's one thing in mind, its ability to decimate foes like an attack helicopter. Reckless + STAB that takes recoil makes it a force to be reckoned with. It gives momentum to your team via U-Turn which is nice for a wallbreaker. It also has Close Combat and Final Gambit which is good coverage on Pokemon that are Steel, Ice, Rock and does a lot of damage. It can also be ran as a Defogger which I'll show here:



Staraptor @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Defog
- Close Combat

Right there you can tell that its a good mon to use. But the drawbacks to this Pokemon is that it has crappy Sp.Def which makes a neutral sp.attack put a heavy dent onto it. It also gets heavily weared down by its STAB attacks Double Edge + Brave Bird and Stealth Rock which makes it live less longer on the field. Here's an example of how recoil can really fuck up this mon.

Before Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 287-338 (92.2 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Staraptor: 271-319 (87.1 - 102.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

After Stealth Rock

Well it OHKOs it duh

Aside that... it can reliably check Bisharp with CC and CB Staraptor can net a OHKO on Scizor with Brave Bird and it trashes most if not most Pokemon in the tier and its not healthy for the tier. Thats why I'd say it'll be banworthy to ban Staraptor.
 

Accelgor

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When it comes to Staraptor, there's one thing in mind, its ability to decimate foes like an attack helicopter. Reckless + STAB that takes recoil makes it a force to be reckoned with. It gives momentum to your team via U-Turn which is nice for a wallbreaker. It also has Close Combat and Final Gambit which is good coverage on Pokemon that are Steel, Ice, Rock and does a lot of damage. It can also be ran as a Defogger which I'll show here:



Staraptor @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Defog
- Close Combat

Right there you can tell that its a good mon to use. But the drawbacks to this Pokemon is that it has crappy Sp.Def which makes a neutral sp.attack put a heavy dent onto it. It also gets heavily weared down by its STAB attacks Double Edge + Brave Bird and Stealth Rock which makes it live less longer on the field. Here's an example of how recoil can really fuck up this mon.

Before Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 287-338 (92.2 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Staraptor: 271-319 (87.1 - 102.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

After Stealth Rock

Well it OHKOs it duh

Aside that... it can reliably check Bisharp with CC and CB Staraptor can net a OHKO on Scizor with Brave Bird and it trashes most if not most Pokemon in the tier and its not healthy for the tier. Thats why I'd say it'll be banworthy to ban Staraptor.
This is a thread that's meant to serve as a medium for any UU metagame related discussions. This monotype set has no business operating in UU. If you meant to make a post about how effective this set, then please proceed to post about this set in the appropriate section of the forums.

Now.

You said that Staraptor has crappy Sp.Def, but forgot to mention that its overall defensive bulk is also crappy. 85/75/65 bulk simply isn't enough bulk to warrant the use of a Defog set on raptor, and you'll find that it'll get 2hko'd by most relevant physical hits after rocks, even with Intimidate. You said that it can reliably check Bisharp with CC while ignoring the fact that you can't switch into it directly, much less provide it with a +1 boost to its Attack by virtue of Defiant. Your speed evs aren't enough to outspeed Jolly Bisharp, which just KOs you with Knock Off or Iron Head after rocks. Adamant Bisharp, which you do outspeed, just dents you with Sucker Punch to the point where you can't reliably remove hazards from the field or even provide any more of that lackluster defensive presence for the remainder of the game.

Even if you aren't 2hko'd by any strong physical move after rocks (which there aren't many of), then you'll be stuck spamming Roost, trying to get your health back up, and as such you won't be able to clear away any hazards or fire off an attack in return. This in turn makes you incredibly passive, which is the opposite of what the better Staraptor sets are trying to accomplish in the first place. What you've done is take something that has the raw power to dismantle most teams, regardless of their archetype, and create a set that ignores those very distinct qualities, and one that can't even accomplish anything as a defogger or tank. This is the equivalent of trying to run a Dhelmise to check Keldeo; there are better options that are available for your use instead of wasting your time using and posting this type of low quality shit.

Sorry for sounding brash or anything but I'm honestly just confused about what your post was supposed to offer to this discussion. You basically reiterated everyone else's statements without providing anything new other than that damn awful defog set that nobody, not even people who meme, has used in UU.
 
This is a thread that's meant to serve as a medium for any UU metagame related discussions. This monotype set has no business operating in UU. If you meant to make a post about how effective this set, then please proceed to post about this set in the appropriate section of the forums.

Now.

You said that Staraptor has crappy Sp.Def, but forgot to mention that its overall defensive bulk is also crappy. 85/75/65 bulk simply isn't enough bulk to warrant the use of a Defog set on raptor, and you'll find that it'll get 2hko'd by most relevant physical hits after rocks, even with Intimidate. You said that it can reliably check Bisharp with CC while ignoring the fact that you can't switch into it directly, much less provide it with a +1 boost to its Attack by virtue of Defiant. Your speed evs aren't enough to outspeed Jolly Bisharp, which just KOs you with Knock Off or Iron Head after rocks. Adamant Bisharp, which you do outspeed, just dents you with Sucker Punch to the point where you can't reliably remove hazards from the field or even provide any more of that lackluster defensive presence for the remainder of the game.

Even if you aren't 2hko'd by any strong physical move after rocks (which there aren't many of), then you'll be stuck spamming Roost, trying to get your health back up, and as such you won't be able to clear away any hazards or fire off an attack in return. This in turn makes you incredibly passive, which is the opposite of what the better Staraptor sets are trying to accomplish in the first place. What you've done is take something that has the raw power to dismantle most teams, regardless of their archetype, and create a set that ignores those very distinct qualities, and one that can't even accomplish anything as a defogger or tank. This is the equivalent of trying to run a Dhelmise to check Keldeo; there are better options that are available for your use instead of wasting your time using and posting this type of low quality shit.

Sorry for sounding brash or anything but I'm honestly just confused about what your post was supposed to offer to this discussion. You basically reiterated everyone else's statements without providing anything new other than that damn awful defog set that nobody, not even people who meme, has used in UU.
Sorry if I "pissed" you off with my standpoint on Staraptor and if it should be banned, but yeah your argument is true, and I do agree on most things you said about it. Anyways, thanks for your honest opinion, I'll try not to use movesets from other tiers again.
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
Staraptor? Uh...


From what I see - Starraptor COULD work in UU... just at a later time when the metagames around us have actually settled down. The reason I say this is that from what I've heard is that UU has a bad rep for failing to deal with good Flying types (of which Staraptor and the two Thundy forms were the most... egregious examples).

For the Ban side - I think there's one thing that can set it in stone:
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 128-151 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
And yes, I'm aware that Mega Metagross is not UU - but if you guys think Standard Metagross in THIS tier can switch in... think again lol.

That being said - I do think that brings me onto another point: the fact that Brave Bird recoil and CC defense drops DO leave it susceptible to being picked off, alongside being weak to SR. Having Uturn and a few support options (Tailwind, Defog and Foresight I guess) is nice and all, but doesn't really help you when you get picked off by Conk' Mach Punch a couple of turns later.

I'm going to say I'm neutral on Staraptor. Yes, it's bloody strong, but it's a bit of a one trick pony bird.

P.S: Which Z-moves do we think it can abuse? Flyinium and Fightinium Z are the two best ones for it off the top of my head.

staraptor.gif

Staraptor @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Tailwind
 
I think TSR pointed out most of the reasons why Staraptor was amazing in beta, and will likely still be now. I'll wait until I actually use it before I judge whether it is busted or not, but I do want to point out that without scarf, Raptor is still a terrifying breaker, but most teams can afford to use something that can revenge kill it, as a lot of A ranked things can revenge kill Raptor. Raikou, Gengar, Keldeo, Starmie, Latias, and Mega Aerodactyl are all good and splashable in this meta, and all of them can revenge kill Raptor, which combined with recoil and potential rocks make it easy to take down. However, Scarf absolutely massacres most of these teams. Not only does it still hit hard, being able to dent hippo and forcing it to recover, none of the things I mentioned want to switch in. While Keldeo, Gengar, Latias, and even Raikou can all use scarf, it has to be after an ally has died, as they cannot switch in at all. I think that Scarf is the most threatening set in theory. Band is still a decent choice, as it does absurd damage, it's just that it gets forced out much more often, and most offensive teams can pressure it enough to only allow it to maybe get one kill maximum. Of course, if balance starts to get more common, I could easily see Band being more dangerous. I'm not really sure what the point of running a Z-Move is, considering that Raptor would rather just boost its speed with Scarf or kill everything with Band. Flying is one of the best types to be locked into because it is arguably the best offensive typing, so I would rather use another Z-Move user. Ultimately, while Raptor is definitely extremely dangerous on paper, I'll wait until I have a chance to see how it does in the meta before I form an opinion on whether it's broken or not.
 
tl;dr - Staraptor has some stuff that, in my opinion, that might make it redeemable, since i find that its flaws are a little more easy to exploit in the current meta. Like I've expressed to a few people (haven't posted) about Clefable, it doesn't seem genuinely broken on paper, but i feel as if UU would be a much better metagame without it. So at the moment, I'm hoping that the vote ends up with Staraptor being banned.
My apologies for being new but as far as I can tell from Smogon guidelines Pokemon should only be banned from tiers if they are thought to be broken. Thinking a metagame will be better without a Pokemon isn't a legitimate reason to ban it on it's own.
 
My apologies for being new but as far as I can tell from Smogon guidelines Pokemon should only be banned from tiers if they are thought to be broken. Thinking a metagame will be better without a Pokemon isn't a legitimate reason to ban it on it's own.
It is actually, while being broken is the top thing to note being unhealthy or overbearing is enough to do the trick as well.

Also thank god victini got banned and fuck staraptor goodnight everybody.
 

Sacri'

a wish for peace
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My apologies for being new but as far as I can tell from Smogon guidelines Pokemon should only be banned from tiers if they are thought to be broken. Thinking a metagame will be better without a Pokemon isn't a legitimate reason to ban it on it's own.
Welcome to smogon! If you have any question regarding the UU tiering, you should probably check this thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/underused-tiering.3592197/
Also, be careful about not jumping to conclusion, TSR said he thought the UU metagame would be better without Clefable and hasn't actually said anything about it potentially being banned. Keep in mind that a pokemon may get banned if it's deemed unhealthy for a metagame which means that, even though it doesnt actually fit the definition of "broken" it strongly impacts the tier in a negative way thus making it ban worthy.
 
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Mew @ Psychium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock
- Giga Drain
- Vacuum Wave

This is a set I've been having some fun with at the moment as a sort of replacement for what NP Thundurus was. Different typings and power but NP Mew combines bulk and unlimited coverage with decent power at +2. Psyshock let's you take on special walls easier like Blissey, Giga Drain helps give you longevity and can take advantage of bulky waters and grounds, and Vacuum Wave gives you priority and lets you take on Bisharp with ease and clean up Hydreigon after some prior damage at +2. Psychium Z gives Mew a one time nuke to something and with Psyshock, it hits on the special side letting you OHKO the likes of Gliscor and Togekiss and Volcanion at +2. EV's are to outspeed non-scarf Krookodile as I didn't see anything else I really wanted to creep with Victini gone. The extra bulk does come in handy letting you live Mega Absol Knock Offs and more. It's a fun set against stall if you can pressure the Clefable a bit beforehand. Please Ban Clefable btw.

Here are some Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-537440718
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-534609863
 
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Staraptor is an extremely threatening wallbreaker by virtue of it's fantastic attack stat and reckless. This allows staraptor to easily birdhandle a lot of slower teams, as even defensive mons like forretress and suicune take a ton from CB Brave Bird. Balance teams also struggle to switch into staraptor. Staraptor also doesn't fall face flat against offensive teams either though, as it has a nice base 100 speed, allowing it to outspeed hydreigon and krookodile etc... Scarf also destroys offensive teams despite not doing too well against defensive. While it does get worn down quickly, it'll at least take down one thing with it. Basically no team archetype can successfully wall every staraptor set so i would say Banworthy.
 
From my limited experience with the current UU meta, all I'll say is that I would be incredibly sad to see it be banned to BL for the fourth gen in a row (not a record you wanna have, really) and I LOVED using it when the SM UU tier was starting up. But as much as I loved using it - note that I abused a classic Life Orb set personally, then switched to a scarfer - it's just too much for UU to handle. Reckless + 120 base Att + STAB Brave Bird + STAB Double Edge is just ridiculously hard to switch into, and the few things in the tier that can handle them are blown back by Close Combat, aside from Doublade. Add U-Turn pivoting, STAB Quick Attack for priority and the potential to run scarfed Final Gambit for sniping, and there's just no way to justify having it in UU... well, not unless stuff like Metagross and Rhyperior become REALLY common.
 

Kink

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From my limited experience with the current UU meta, all I'll say is that I would be incredibly sad to see it be banned to BL for the fourth gen in a row (not a record you wanna have, really) and I LOVED using it when the SM UU tier was starting up.
I just want to say that it's completely and utterly irrelevant if Staraptor is sent to BL again for a fourth time in a row. Our goal is to look at this meta and this meta alone and make informed choices based on this meta. This is the last time I want to hear anyone talk about previous generations and BL, keep it relevant.
 
I've been relearning the metagame, and it's interesting to watch it shift. I've been keeping a close eye on Decidueye, a Mon with specific usability only good for one set. I figured it would drop, and I'm curious to see what shifts in the metagame would cause a Mon like that to rise in usability. It seems that in order to stay relevant, you need to be more than a one trick pony.
 
I've been relearning the metagame, and it's interesting to watch it shift. I've been keeping a close eye on Decidueye, a Mon with specific usability only good for one set. I figured it would drop, and I'm curious to see what shifts in the metagame would cause a Mon like that to rise in usability. It seems that in order to stay relevant, you need to be more than a one trick pony.
I don't feel like typing out a lot here, but being a one trick pony is fine as long as you excel at your job. Take a look at Entei in ORAS UU: it was one of the best Pokemon in the tier, and it only really ran a Choice Band set since its other options were quite frankly bad. Of course, a lot of the top tier mon will be versatile; Scizor, Clefable and Latias are great examples of this, as they allow for a lot of customization and provide a lot of cool moveset options. Meanwhile, other Pokemon like Hippowdon and Sharpedo always do the same thing, yet they are so good at said thing that they remain great.

What hurt Decidueye is the drop of Clefable. It is a really strong stallbreaker, as it can boost up on most passive Pokemon and break through pretty much anything commonly found on stall with the combination of Sinister Arrow Raid/Spirit Shackle and Leaf Blade. However, Unaware Clefable completely walls it, and there is not much you can do about this. Even Sinister Arrow Raid bounces off. So as long as Clefable is around, Decidueye is significantly worse, which is why I can see it dropping, and why it has dropped a subrank in the Viability Rankings.

Edit: Just talked to hogg, and "bounced off" may be overdoing it; you still do 60-70% damage against Clefable, unless they protect to weaken its impact. I just meant to highlight that Decidueye cannot 6-0 stall as easily as before anymore.
 
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I get it. It's still powerful since it's B rank, and still does its job well, otherwise it would have plummeted in usability, but Clefable is the literal antithesis of what it's meant to do. The very fact that your team needs to rely on someone else to remove this threat before Decidueye can get to work hurts it.

That was a very informative post, thanks.
 

Eyan

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Not to take anything away from the current Staraptor suspect, but gen 1 VC moves are now live on Showdown. For those unaware, this just means that there's now compatibility for gen 1 movesets with the hidden abilities of pokemon. I know a lot of people have already been excited / interested to try this out in particular (as well as breathing down my neck to bug someone to implement it).


Alakazam @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Counter

This is more or less your typical Sash Alakazam set, but the big difference is that Counter + Magic Guard is now legal, turning Alakazam into the biggest check to any physical attacker out there bar Decidueye and Doublade since your Sash will always be intact until you're hit. Even with a relatively low base 55 HP, when brought down to its Sash from full, it's able to retaliate with Counter to hit for 502 HP worth of damage, meaning the only relevant things that can live that are Blissey, Snorlax, and Alomomola, of which only Snorlax would normally be able to deal that much damage in one hit, and even then it's severely weakened. This allows Alakazam to beat stuff like Mega Aerodactyl 1v1 that try to Pursuit trap and break its Sash, and really makes you reconsider what move you want to go for on Alakazam, since even a scarfed U-turn from stuff like Hydreigon can be dangerous to go for. If you want, you could even make it a Hasty nature with 0 Defense IVs to make it more potent. That's pretty much the gist of it, and it's probably going to be really deadly on HO teams as a catch-all check to physical attackers. I hope Hikari is happy now.

There's more stuff you can get through VC but tbh most of them are ass, and this is the most prominent one by far.
 
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So, has anyone had success with the Z-Terrain moves? Misty and Grassy are ass, but Z-Electric Terrain is basically electric DD and Z-Psychic is Nasty Plot+priority immunity. The opportunity cost is fairly high, but I think there's potential for some interesting sets there.

(I'd talk about Starraptor, but I want to try my set before I comment)
 
Not to take anything away from the current Staraptor suspect, but gen 1 VC moves are now live on Showdown. For those unaware, this just means that there's now compatibility for gen 1 movesets with the hidden abilities of pokemon. I know a lot of people have already been excited / interested to try this out in particular (as well as breathing down my neck to bug someone to implement it).


Alakazam @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Counter

This is more or less your typical Sash Alakazam set, but the big difference is that Counter + Magic Guard is now legal, turning Alakazam into the biggest check to any physical attacker out there bar Decidueye and Doublade since your Sash will always be intact until you're hit. Even with a relatively low base 55 HP, when brought down to its Sash from full, it's able to retaliate with Counter to hit for 500 HP worth of damage, meaning the only relevant things that can live that are Blissey, Snorlax, and Alomomola, of which only Snorlax would normally be able to deal that much damage in one hit, and even then it's severely weakened. This allows Alakazam to beat stuff like Mega Aerodactyl 1v1 that try to Pursuit trap and break its Sash, and really makes you reconsider what move you want to go for on Alakazam, since even a scarfed U-turn from stuff like Hydreigon can be dangerous to go for. If you want, you could even make it a Hasty nature with 0 Defense IVs to make it more potent. That's pretty much the gist of it, and it's probably going to be really deadly on HO teams as a catch-all check to physical attackers. I hope Hikari is happy now.

There's more stuff you can get through VC but tbh most of them are ass, and this is the most prominent one by far.
yo does this mean soft-boiled can finally be used on unaware clef or nah
 
yo does this mean soft-boiled can finally be used on unaware clef or nah
It's only available through FRLG move tutor with Magic Guard only. It is possible for irl, just difficult (FR transfer all the way to BW then use PokeBank).

I'd be quicker to try to get Defog Latias irl, which is still a pain.

I really hope that they do Sinnoh remake so defog is available.

To keep this related to suspect test, Raptor hits like an absolute truck. I've been using intimidate users and Klefki to cushion it (and cripple with TWave/WoW), but can be an issue. I am seeing more Scarf Keldeo to check raptor, which is okay. More recently, I am running a bulky Intimidate/regenerator core with Krook, Slowbro and Glisor.
 
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