np: SUMO UU Stage 2 - Countdown

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Moutemoute

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After a couple days of laddering, I would like to give a more developed opinion (which doesn't limit itself to a first impression like the previous one). I will only talk about the Pokemon / Set I tested.



Well, when I saw this drop 2 days ago, I was like "OMG BAN this thing, it's broken" but now I'm clearly on the fence for Xurkitree. It's clearly a huge threat for a lot of Pokemon since his coverage (Electric / Grass / Ice) is kinda amazing but I'm not sure it's broken. It's difficult to set-up this thing and the set with Z-Hypnosis depend a lot of the accuracy of Hypnosis (which is 60%.. So you have basically about 1/2 chance to miss your attack and be nuke in return). Furthermore, since Keldeo and Clefable rose to OU, Hydreigon recovered a huge place in the tier and threatened a lot of team. It can easily check or revenge kill with Choice Scarf Xurkitree which sucks because it mean you need to take care of it.. and it's not easy trust me. Xurkitree can be RK by basically 95% of the common Choice Scarf users and Aerodactyl-Mega too (which gain a lot to my mind with the new Pokemon in the tier).

tl;dr : Xurkitree is a really good Pokemon but his lack of speed (even at +1) is really annonying. Imo you really need to build arround to make it shine (I see it like a Terrakion-like).

Here some exemples of set I tested :

Xurkitree @ Psychium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hypnosis
- Thunderbolt
- Grass Knot / Tail Glow
- Hidden Power [Ice]

It's a classic set, like in OU. Z-Hypnosis put to sleep a Pokemon and give +1 Speed to Xurkitree which allows it to outspeed Pokemon with a 145 BS Speed (like Sceptile-Mega & Beedrill-Mega). Grass Knot is better than Energy Ball since you hit harder Hippodown, Steelix-Mega or even Raikou.

Xurkitree @ Electrium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Electric Terrain
- Thunderbolt
- Grass Knot / Tail Glow
- Hidden Power [Ice]

A variant of the previous set. Z-Electric Terrain is like Hypnosis cuz it give +1 Speed to Xurkitree but also prevent your Pokemon on the ground to be put asleep (which is cool vs Z-Hypnosis Xurkitree) and rise the power of Electric attacks by 50% during 5 turns. Since Xurkitree run Electrium Z and not Psychium Z you can also decide if you don't need +1 Speed to nuke something in your opponent team with Z-Thunderbolt aka Gigavolt Havoc.

I personnaly run 3 atk instead of 2 atk + Tail Glow since I see this set like a Late-Game Sweeper set.





Welp I'm not sure how good this thing is since imo it needs 4 atk to have the best coverage. But it's a fantastic physical wall even with no investisment in HP or Def. It can check stuff like Mamoswine which is great and I kinda like it. Since it's in UU, I've seen people run Scizor with Aerial Ace and a lot more of Crobat (which like Hydreigon have gained in popularity).

Set :

Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Life
- Focus Punch
- Earthquake / Ice Punch

EV in Speed allows Buzzwole to outspeed Modest Primarina and Adamant Bewear (if you want to outspeed Timid Primarina and Jolly Bewear you need to run 188 Speed). Subsitute allows Buzzwole to Focus Punch but I think you can play an other Fighting STAB like Hammer Arm if you don't like Focus Punch. Leech Life & Lefties for the recovery. The last slot depend of what you want to deal with : Earthquake allows Buzzwole to pass through Tentacruel when Ice Punch take care of Gliscor & Crobat.



I was waiting for Steelix-Mega in Underused and OMFG I love it. This Pokemon check so much things : Raikou, Latias, Xurkitree, Crobat, Aerodactyl-Mega, Beedrill-Mega etc..
With Wish support like Alomomola, this thing is pretty hard to K.O.

Set :

Steelix-Mega @ Steelixite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Roar / Toxic
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake

I personnaly play Steelix-Mega with max HP / SpD which allows him to take care easily of Latias / Raikou / Xurkitree. Both STAB do good damage as you can see :

8 Atk Steelix-Mega Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latias: 171-202 (56.8 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 Atk Steelix-Mega Heavy Slam (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 144-171 (44.3 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
8 Atk Steelix-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 212-252 (65.6 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Roar is better to phaze but if you don't need that, I guess Toxic is also a decent option.



Finnaly this cool bird is back. I'm a big fan of Pidgeot-Mega and I kinda disagree with people who said that it will be broken. Tbh, with Confusion nerf, Hurricane is clearly not as strong as it was in ORAS (not sure if I said my idea well sry). In SM, Hurricane mean 30% of confusion and 1/3 to hurt yourself if you are confused (which mean Hurricane is 10% to hit yourself in confusion). Aerodactyl-Mega is a huge counter to hit and it's kinda unfortunate.. I played with it and I'm clearly not convinced of it.. Maybe I tested the wrong set.


Set :

Pidgeot-Mega @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Tangled Feet
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Roost
- Work Up
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave / U-turn / Refresh



I not tested Beedrill-Mega a lot but I think it's a solid Pokemon. U-Turn is really great and it's perfect when you paired it with Krook (Scarf / Band).

Set :

Beedrill-Mega @ Beedrillite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- U-turn
- Poison Jab
- Drill Run

Tbh I think Drill Run is the best option (better than K-Off because of Z-Crystal and since you don't play with Drill Run you're counter by too many things like Cobalion).
 
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Set :

Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Life
- Focus Punch
- Earthquake / Ice Punch
I would edit this EV spread a bit to make Buzzwole create 101 HP subs which is 196 HP investment.
 

Hikari

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Houndoom's has been flying under most people's radars, but after testing it a bit with a (fairly flawed) Sun team it showed it can be an extremely scary threat. Mega Houndoom's power under Sun is absolutely ridiculous; it actually hits as hard as Gigavolt Havoc Xurkitree.

252 SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 328-387 (45.9 - 54.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 349-412 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 657-774 (92 - 108.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 679-801 (95 - 112.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Key difference: Houndoom 2HKOes Blissey without setting up, which means it eats bulky teams without requiring a boost. That raw power also is a massive problem vs offense, because nothing switches in for free and Houndoom outspeeds a huge portion of the metagame.

252 SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Infernape in Sun: 281-331 (95.9 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon in Sun: 231-273 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primarina in Sun: 187-221 (62.1 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In my experience, Houndoom doesn't need Solarbeam as it only really needs Fire Blast to nuke everything and Dark Pulse is a solid secondary STAB, so I'm just running Flame Charge as filler because if you get that +1 Speed boost vs offense, which is honestly not as unlikely as it sounds and Houndoom doesn't rely on it to be good anyway, you probably win.

Couple of replays (not the best ones, just the ones I saved because they were funny) I saved and I'm currently hovering around 1600~ on the ladder:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-588878054

Opp gets forced into revenge killing Venusaur with Scizor and then sacs it to revenge kill doom, but I use Flame Charge and win.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-588712156

I para the only Pokemon faster than Houndoom that can threaten it. Take advantage of the obvious Draco to get an opportunity to setup NP and then Flame Charge the Rotom that couldn't ko me. Houndoom gets 6 kills and OHKOes Primarina, Rotom-H and Swampert with Fire Blast.
 
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ehT

UU Tier Mom
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GDI Hikari sniped me To expand on what Hikari said about M-Doom, yeah y'all have been shitting on it way too much. It got a huge set of buffs this gen between Prankster nerf, instant 115 Spe, and most importantly, actually having sun to abuse. You may have noticed this by now but, just like Clef meta, Fire-types are super anti-meta since people just tack on Specs Prima / Blastoise / Lati and call it a day, and Alo / Pert / Suicune can get easily overwhelmed by boosted special moves. Enter this:

Houndoom-Mega @ Houndoominite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Hidden Power Grass / Sludge Bomb / Flame Charge
- Nasty Plot

Ninetales @ Firium Z
Ability: Drought
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Nasty Plot
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Toxic


What's stopping this? Prior to now, most weather cores were generally super matchup-based and required more support than most wallbreaking / type-Spam cores, but these two do a good job standing on their own and crushing fat stuff with the help of standard offensive-pressure-relieving measures.

+4 252 SpA Ninetales Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 760-895 (106.4 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Ninetales Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primarina in Sun: 290-342 (96.3 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Ninetales Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Alomomola in Sun: 432-508 (89.8 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Ninetales Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias in Sun: 262-309 (87 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Lives Life Orb Draco most of the time from full)
+2 252 SpA Ninetales Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise-Mega in Sun: 292-344 (97.6 - 115%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (Bulky set dies most of the time after rocks but that's not a set anymore)
252 SpA Ninetales Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega in Sun: 171-202 (56.8 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Ninetales Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon in Sun: 357-421 (109.8 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Houndoom calcs in sun are the same story but even stronger. I sincerely think Houndoom sun is a viable playstyle right now, just because of how disgustingly strong Doom + Ninetales are, and pretty much the only consistent counterplay being offensive stuff that's easy to wear down.


Houndoom-Mega @ Houndoominite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
- Hidden Power [Grass]

Ninetales @ Firium Z
Ability: Drought
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Nasty Plot
- Toxic

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Play Rough
- Spikes
- Toxic
- Thunder Wave

Latias @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Healing Wish / Defog

Krookodile @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Aqua Tail / Pursuit
- Taunt

Cobalion @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Iron Head
- Volt Switch
- Stealth Rock


I think I do a good job supporting this core here. I load my teammates up with lures / coverage for bulky Grounds and Aero, Scarf Lati and Klefki pressure annoying Dragons, Lati and Krook keep Electrics in check, and Volt Switch Coba pivots on stuff like Scizor to keep up pressure. Pretty straightforward stuff for what seems matchup-based as hell on paper, but ultimately has the power to be pretty consistent.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-589017692

Not necessarily a quality game, but it shows pretty well that stall has zero for Doom + Tales. From preview, nothing really wants to take boosted Fire moves + Solar Beam, so the game is pretty straightforward for me. Once Blissey gets overloaded it's only a matter of playing around Scarf Krook and keeping T-Spikes off and it's a gg.
 
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pokeisfun

UU player and community member
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My thoughts on the post June tier shift metagame:

  • All the drops bar the obvious (Pelipper, Audino) are very viable, with the best being probably Buzzwole, Pidgeot or Swampert
  • But since a lot of these drops are mega (max one per team), this isn't quite a completely new tier, although it's close
  • Biggest play style winner of the shift seems to be bulky offense, the biggest loser is balanced
  • Stall also took some net losses but not close to useless like some people thought
  • Nothing is obviously banworthy, plenty of Pokemon (Pidgeot, Buzzwole, Swampert) are only at the borderline of suspect worthy
  • Rather than quick ban any drops, I rather see the council continue the reintroductions ASAP

Not really a strong claim on my first point; it's pretty obvious everything is viable.


Buzzwole is a top tier physical tank that gives all styles (it can run a max defense set) a reliable counter to a lot of strong threats like Mamoswine, Conkeldurr, Krookodile and even opposing Buzzwole. It's substitutes are really good at taking advantage of passive Pokemon like Blissey, Quagsire without Curse and some Gliscor to name a few. Unfortunately, with Substitute and potentially Bulk Up, it doesn't have all the room for the coverage it wants and even then some of its counters can go straight through the Substitute (Infiltrator Chandelure and Crobat as well as Sylveon). For its physically defensive set, I find it highly comparable to Hippowdown except in exchange for utility, you get even more physical bulk and importantly resistances so you can switch into threats like Mamoswine and Conkeldurr which Hippowdon cannot.


Pidgeot is a strong threat because of its speed and abuse of the tiers Flying resists - most of which are slower than Pidgeot and/or weak to Heat Wave, Mega Aerodactyl is the big exception. Because of these metagame trends and because those counters tend to lack recovery, Pidgeot has a good time in Volt-Turn teams dealing damage and gaining momentum. I am skeptical of sets that do not use Heat Wave (Work Up Refresh) because Heat Wave offers such good coverage, and because the stall teams that this set targets often still runs counters (Steelix, Mega Aerodactly, Mega Swampert) that are not particularly bothered by Refresh.


Swampert normally runs either an offensive SR set or a RD sweeper set, both of which are good. I usually use a specially defensive Curse set though with Ice Punch because it offers a little bit of utility (block Volt Switch) and more importantly complements Blissey well, checking special threats it loses to (Chandelure, Lucario, Reuniclus, Refresh Pidgeot, Superpower users). Xurkitree and Togekiss are obviously big exceptions and those threats I mentioned are not particularly salient issues for UU at the moment so I understand if this set does not catch on. It can sweep unprepared teams as well however.



[19:02] [person a name redacted]: this new meta is nice, I still haven't had to play a stall team

[19:02] [person a name redacted]: rip, stall

[19:02] [person b name redacted]: yo guys how do you build teams in uu right now? what is most common threats

[19:02] [person c name redacted]: stall doesn't exsist with all this power creep

[19:02] [person c name redacted]: with the new megas


I see these chats often in the UU room on PS.


I agree that the drops are not particularly beneficial for stall (although losing Keldeo, Mew and Gengar is great because those were very hard to wall). Xurkitree in particular gets emphasis as unwallable at +3, which is false but barely false (switch in Kyurem or AV Amoonguss). But pre tier shift threats like Haxorus and Pangoro were also barely wallable too so this to me is more like new toy syndrome than anything else. Sure they might not be as viable as Xurkitree, with Pangoro not viable at all, but in terms of match up with stall they have pretty much as good match ups and still nobody said stall was dead back then.


http://pokepast.es/118c02e700e68a0a This is one of my main three stall teams I am using to ladder with right now. At the very least, it does not get 6-0 by any VR thread threats and is a good counter example to the claim stall doesn't exist. Actually I think it's pretty good to be honest.


I do think balance was the biggest loser because basically it has to prepare for more threats and unlike stall it does not have the luxury of using 5-6 slots dedicated to walls. The great drops that offer a lot of offensive and defensive presence (Buzzwole, Swampert) that you expect to see on balance are also big red targets for very strong offense threats like Sceptile, Pidgeot and Xurkitree. Still, balance is far from unusable and may be better than stall overall still.



Nothing to me is clearly quick ban worthy right now. Xurkitree is like Haxorus is many respects with speed boosting sets being analogous to Dragon Dance and Tail Glow + 3 attacks being analogous to SD + 3 attacks. Neither are broken.


Pidgeot has many defensive counters and while it matches well against most offense, it has the perpetual problem of losing to one of the top three Pokemon in the metagame (Mega Aerodactyl) which is also common on offense.


Buzzwole reminds me a lot of 6th generation Substitue Coil Zygarde (I was not around when it was legal this generation) but unlike Zygarde it only has bulk on one side of the spectrum, worse speed, and shakier coverage if it elects two moves. And like Pidgeot, this Pokemon has defensive counters.


I recommend not quick banning anything or even suspecting any drops except maybe Pidgeot. I rather see UU continue reintroducing suspects because:


  • On balance, its better to have more diversity (and more Pokemon) so we should want to unban Pokemon
  • I just (very briefly) mentioned why I don't think anything is broken right now so basically we are "on balance" now
  • With all these drops, the tier is at least greatly changed, may as well change it a bit more
  • Unfortunately, this post drop meta reveals one of the flaws of our tiering method...we are in a very different metagame and it seems a bit unfair to have banned Azumaril and others based on a previous metagame
  • But this is not a really big flaw because we can continue with suspects as usual, just like we would have done if there was no big tier shift. This is what I recommend we do right now because I think this is a balanced metagame
  • Lastly, if that route is not chosen, I would also be happy to see suspect tests for Pidgeot, Buzzwole or Swampert because I think they are borderline suspect worthy right now
 
Guess I'll post a few thoughts.

Clefable: I can't be the only one who is glad this mon is gone. Honestly would have preferred the entire BL over this piece of cancer.

Other rises were kind of sad to see go, I especially enjoyed running Keldeo and Gengar. Both were generally really nice offensive options in the meta, but oh well.

As for drops...
M-Beedrill: Huge buff this gen. No more need for Protect, allowing it to run both coverage options(Knock Off + Drill Run), or other nasty options like SD or Fell Stinger. Biggest threat in new UU would probably be Scizor; even defensive can do 60-71% with BP.

M-Sceptile: Don't have too much of an opinion for it. Mamo falling at the same time definitely doesn't help its arrival into the tier, but will probably fall around where it once was.

Mamoswine: Same as above, don't see all too much changing with it.

Muk-Alola: I was actually waiting for this mon to fall. Extremely bulky with an interesting typing, it can really put in some work. Stab Pursuit/Knock along with a poison chance on all of your general attacks is really useful, and lets it catch mons like Latias. Psychics were already pretty lacking in the tier, but they just took a nasty hit.

M-Steelix: Biggest buff to it is the fact M-Aggron isn't here. I'd also say it's a great mon to help vs Clef, but it's gone, so yay.

Buzzwole: This thing is annoying as all hell. Most people seem to be running the SubPunch set from what I've seen, and it is almost a free KO every time it gets in on a more defensive mon. That being said, its Spd and Speed are kind of crap, and is pretty much defensively countered by stuff like Mantine/Pelliper/Primarina. Offensively, just run Infiltrator Crobat - You're welcome.

M-Pidgeot: Bird Jesus has returned. Actually been using it a lot myself, and it's still extremely nice to use. Not sure if Work Up will be as broken as it once was, but as a special attacker it has never lacked. Like Bee, Scizor can scare it a bit, but that's more against Banded than Defensive.

M-Houndoom: Never had much opinion of it, but like MPidge it's a solid special attacker in it's own right. Speed buff helped it, as well as the fact we didn't ban Drought yet this gen.

Pelliper: Drizzle's banned, so it's just a Defensive Mantine with U-Turn.

Xurkitree: I can see this one being talked about a lot. Huge SpA with decent speed and two Z-move options to boost it further, +1 SpA every time it KO's a mon, and access to Tail Glow make it really dangerous. However, non-3 attack relies on the team having to take on whatever mons they give up the coverage for. Just tried using a Scarf Xurk and seemed to do alright, Volt Switch behind 173 SpA is nasty early/mid game.

M-Audino: Greatest mon ever. Would be better if they gave it 1 turn recovery, but I guess they can't make things that broken.

M-Swampert: If Drizzle didn't get banned before, it probably would be now. As it is, didn't gain much from the mega speed changes. Only Rain teams will really benefit, and even then it won't always be a gamechanger.
 
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Sacri'

a wish for peace
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Nothing to me is clearly quick ban worthy right now. Xurkitree is like Haxorus is many respects with speed boosting sets being analogous to Dragon Dance and Tail Glow + 3 attacks being analogous to SD + 3 attacks. Neither are broken.


Pidgeot has many defensive counters and while it matches well against most offense, it has the perpetual problem of losing to one of the top three Pokemon in the metagame (Mega Aerodactyl) which is also common on offense.


Buzzwole reminds me a lot of 6th generation Substitue Coil Zygarde (I was not around when it was legal this generation) but unlike Zygarde it only has bulk on one side of the spectrum, worse speed, and shakier coverage if it elects two moves. And like Pidgeot, this Pokemon has defensive counters.


I recommend not quick banning anything or even suspecting any drops except maybe Pidgeot. I rather see UU continue reintroducing suspects because:


  • On balance, its better to have more diversity (and more Pokemon) so we should want to unban Pokemon
  • I just (very briefly) mentioned why I don't think anything is broken right now so basically we are "on balance" now
  • With all these drops, the tier is at least greatly changed, may as well change it a bit more
  • Unfortunately, this post drop meta reveals one of the flaws of our tiering method...we are in a very different metagame and it seems a bit unfair to have banned Azumaril and others based on a previous metagame
  • But this is not a really big flaw because we can continue with suspects as usual, just like we would have done if there was no big tier shift. This is what I recommend we do right now because I think this is a balanced metagame
  • Lastly, if that route is not chosen, I would also be happy to see suspect tests for Pidgeot, Buzzwole or Swampert because I think they are borderline suspect worthy right now
I strongly disagree with this part of your post. While I get the idea behind the Haxorus/Xurkitree comparison, I don't believe it to be relevant for quite a few reasons. The first and most important one being that Xurkitree finds more opportunities to get a hit off than Haxorus.

This mostly comes from the fact that it is an electric type with enough coverage, strength and speed to beat most ground types of the tier. This means that Xurkitree can force out something like Swampert, Hippodown and Mamoswine among other relevant threats, it also gets opportunities vs things like Klefki, Togekiss, Pidgeot, most bulky waters, bulky variants of Scizor. All of these are commonly used which is what makes Xurkitree more immediately threatening than Haxorus in that regard. Haxorus has access to a decent coverage but it needs to lock itself into Outrage to damage many different things which is why playing around Haxorus is way easier.

When Xurk comes in vs something that can't do much to it the opponent is immediatly forced out into something that will either die to a coverage move (Krook for instance) or something that drops if the Xurkitree user goes for Tail Glow (this applies to stuff like Amoonguss, Assault Vest Metagross and even Steelix Mega). This creates a situation in which you need to predict right so as not to lose at least a pokemon. Thunderbolt in general is extremely hard to switch into when it comes from something as strong as Xurkitree which, as said earlier, a huge issue when most ground types outright die to coverage/boosted coverage. As of now the only reliable way to beat Xurkitree is revenge killing it which isn't as easy as people make it out to be considering that it can boost it's speed or even run something like a Shuca berry to lure Scarf Krook and Aerodactyl.

I find Xurkitree to be overly threatening right now, it restricts teambuilding heavily and can still manage to put work versus teams that supposedly roll over it (Offenses). The only actual problem for Xurkitree is Latias which is forced to roost and it happens to be prone to Pursuit trapping on top of that. After playing roughly 150 games I firmly believe that a decently played Xurkitree puts a huge stain on teambuilding and is outright too powerful for the current uu which is why I want it to be voted on by the council.

In terms of policy I think that removing Drought/Drought + Doom and Xurkitree should be our absolute priority in order to achieve the creation of a healthy metagame. I'm on the fence about Buzzwole but I don't find Pidgeot & Swampert to be worth suspecting, we still have the same effective checks that we had back in ORAS and we even gained some better ones with Raikou for Pidgeot and Slowbro for Swampert.
 
In terms of policy I think that removing Drought/Drought + Doom and Xurkitree should be our absolute priority in order to achieve the creation of a healthy metagame. I'm on the fence about Buzzwole but I don't find Pidgeot & Swampert to be worth suspecting, we still have the same effective checks that we had back in ORAS and we even gained some better ones with Raikou for Pidgeot and Slowbro for Swampert.
I don't think we should jump to such quick conclusions as of right now. M-Houndoom and Xurkitree are definitely top tier threats and many of your points are indeed valid. But Xurkitree and Houndoom do indeed come with their fair share of weaknesses. Xurkitree is a potent wallbreaker but its mediocre speed and defenses leave it quite vulnerable and comparable to a glass cannon. Switching Xurkitree in is quite hard as a result and most of the time, you will often need a free switch-in to send it in. Although Haxorus may not be a great comparison, I would actually liken Xurkitree to a CB Terrakion, since hardly anything in UU can be expected to switch into that and not get OHKO'd/2HKO'd, but it doesn't find many opportunities to switch in.

I think Drought + Doom is also relatively manageable. The combo is quite strong, but it can be defeated and checked appropriately. In between Stealth Rock and Solar Power, Houndoom goes down really fast, if you can capitalise on some strategic switches and force it back out, the residual damage will take its toll.

I know comparatively, I'm not as experienced or as skilled as Pokeisfun or Sacri, so my insights and observations may not be wholly accurate, but I still generally play in the 1600+ bracket, so I do have a moderate understanding of the current metagame.
 
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I don't think we should jump to such quick conclusions as of right now. M-Houndoom and Xurkitree are definitely top tier threats and many of your points are indeed valid. But Xurkitree and Houndoom do indeed come with their fair share of weaknesses. Xurkitree is a potent wallbreaker but its mediocre speed and defenses leave it quite vulnerable and comparable to a glass cannon. Switching Xurkitree in is quite hard as a result and most of the time, you will often need a free switch-in to send it in. Although Haxorus may not be a great comparison, I would actually liken Xurkitree to a CB Terrakion, since hardly anything in UU can be expected to switch into that and not get OHKO'd/2HKO'd, but it doesn't find many opportunities to switch in.

I think Drought + Doom is also relatively manageable. The combo is quite strong, but it can be defeated and checked appropriately. In between Stealth Rock and Solar Power, Houndoom goes down really fast, if you can capitalise on some strategic switches and force it back out, the residual damage will take its toll.

I know comparatively, I'm not as experienced or as skilled as Pokeisfun or Sacri, so my insights and observations may not be wholly accurate, but I still generally play in the 1600+ bracket, so I do have a moderate understanding of the current metagame.
I'd like to add on to your statement regarding xurkitree. In my personal opinion, xurkitree is a tad overrated because some people don't take into account how difficult it is to set up against non stall teams. With the recent tier shifts, I believe offensive and bulky offensive teams are on the rise, and I've noticed that those teams give xurkitree a really hard time. Xurkitree is indeed comparable to terrakion's double dance set: it wants to compromise its power and speed, but when it attempts to do so, one or both stats end up being a bit underwhelming. For example, xurkitree's z-hypnosis or electric terrain set ideally gives it an edge against offense with the speed boost, but those teams(even bulky offense and balance) more often than not carry a faster scarfers such as terrakion itself, hydreigon, or infernape, not to mention the commonality of mega aerodactyl on those teams. This isn't even taking into account the difficulty involved with setting up a tail glow and/or hypnosis/electric terrain. At times, xurkitree may get the speed boost, or the sp Atk boost, rarely both against offensive teams, but the problem with the z move sets is the fact that's you're limited to one coverage move alongside thunderbolt, meaning that things like latias can stomach hits id you lack hp ice, or things like mamoswine can if you lack energy ball. Sure, you could argue that the tail glow 3 attacks set gives it a lot more freedom in terms of covering a later portion of the metagame, but your matchup against the increasingly common offensive teams is hindered even further. In fact, I would go as far as to say that xurkitree has a more difficult time setting up than terrakion a goodbye percent of the time, because its fragility and mono electric typing hinder it more than terrakions even more poor defensive typing. The main thing I want to address about xurkitree is that while I cannot deny its strong matchup against semistall, stall, and to a certain extent balance teams, the play styles which give it the most trouble are becoming increasingly common, which is certainly not doing it any favors.
 
I strongly disagree with this part of your post. While I get the idea behind the Haxorus/Xurkitree comparison, I don't believe it to be relevant for quite a few reasons. The first and most important one being that Xurkitree finds more opportunities to get a hit off than Haxorus.

This mostly comes from the fact that it is an electric type with enough coverage, strength and speed to beat most ground types of the tier. This means that Xurkitree can force out something like Swampert, Hippodown and Mamoswine among other relevant threats, it also gets opportunities vs things like Klefki, Togekiss, Pidgeot, most bulky waters, bulky variants of Scizor. All of these are commonly used which is what makes Xurkitree more immediately threatening than Haxorus in that regard. Haxorus has access to a decent coverage but it needs to lock itself into Outrage to damage many different things which is why playing around Haxorus is way easier.

When Xurk comes in vs something that can't do much to it the opponent is immediatly forced out into something that will either die to a coverage move (Krook for instance) or something that drops if the Xurkitree user goes for Tail Glow (this applies to stuff like Amoonguss, Assault Vest Metagross and even Steelix Mega). This creates a situation in which you need to predict right so as not to lose at least a pokemon. Thunderbolt in general is extremely hard to switch into when it comes from something as strong as Xurkitree which, as said earlier, a huge issue when most ground types outright die to coverage/boosted coverage. As of now the only reliable way to beat Xurkitree is revenge killing it which isn't as easy as people make it out to be considering that it can boost it's speed or even run something like a Shuca berry to lure Scarf Krook and Aerodactyl.

I find Xurkitree to be overly threatening right now, it restricts teambuilding heavily and can still manage to put work versus teams that supposedly roll over it (Offenses). The only actual problem for Xurkitree is Latias which is forced to roost and it happens to be prone to Pursuit trapping on top of that. After playing roughly 150 games I firmly believe that a decently played Xurkitree puts a huge stain on teambuilding and is outright too powerful for the current uu which is why I want it to be voted on by the council.

In terms of policy I think that removing Drought/Drought + Doom and Xurkitree should be our absolute priority in order to achieve the creation of a healthy metagame. I'm on the fence about Buzzwole but I don't find Pidgeot & Swampert to be worth suspecting, we still have the same effective checks that we had back in ORAS and we even gained some better ones with Raikou for Pidgeot and Slowbro for Swampert.
I strongly disagree with this part of your post. While I get the idea behind the Xurkitree/Haxorus comparison, I don't believe it to be relevant for quite a few reasons. The first and most important one being that Haxorus finds more opportunities to get a hit off than Xurkitree.

This mostly comes from the fact that it is a dragon type with enough coverage, strength and speed to beat most fairy types of the tier. This means that Haxorus can force out something like Primarina, Togekiss and Florges among other relevant threats, it also gets opportunities vs things like Infernape, Krookodile, Magneton, most bulky waters, non fight z variants of Cobalion. All of these are commonly used which is what makes Haxorus more immediately threatening than Xurkitree in that regard. Xurkitree has access to a decent coverage but it needs to click Thunderbolt, and risk giving ground types a free switch-in, to damage many different things which is why playing around Xurkitree is way easier.

When Hax comes in vs something that can't do much to it the opponent is immediatly forced out into something that will either die to a coverage move (Primarina for instance) or something that drops if the Haxorus user goes for Dragon Dance (this applies to stuff like Empoleon, Cobalion and even Metagross). This creates a situation in which you need to predict right so as not to lose at least a pokemon. Outrage in general is extremely hard to switch into when it comes from something as strong as Haxorus which, as said earlier, a huge issue when most fairy types outright die to coverage/boosted coverage. As of now the only reliable way to beat Haxorus is revenge killing it which isn't as easy as people make it out to be considering that it can boost it's speed or even run something like Swords Dance to lure Forretress and Scizor.

I find Haxorus to be overly threatening right now, it restricts teambuilding heavily and can still manage to put work versus teams that supposedly roll over it (Offenses). The only actual problem for Haxorus is Scizor which is forced to roost and it happens to be prone to magnet trapping on top of that. After playing roughly 69¥ games I firmly believe that a decently played Haxorus puts a huge stain on teambuilding and is outright too powerful for the current uu which is why I want it to be voted on by the council.

In terms of policy I think that removing Sandstream/Sandstream + Steelix and Haxorus should be our absolute priority in order to achieve the creation of a healthy metagame. I'm on the fence about Swolebug but I don't find Pidgeot & Swampert to be worth suspecting, we still have the same effective checks that we had back in ORAS and we even gained some better ones with It hurt itself in its confusion! for Pidgeot and mini loaf for Swampert.
 
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I have to say, after laddering up and laddering down all over the place, I've seen many crazy sets. Thanks King UU and eht for posting your teams as it helped me to be lazy for a couple days. Also, nice replays hikari, your team gave me a couple good ideas. Now, I really want to go into Buzzwole as I feel like it is the best substitute user in the UU metagame by far. Holy shit, once behind a sub, and not toxic'd, it really gets the ball rolling. Focus Punch hits too hard lol. I usually see it picking up a kill or two per game and when I used it, I picked a couple kills myself. The substitute set with lefties is clearly Buzzwole's best set. Another good set is fightinium z focus punch/hammer arm on AoA set, as well as, rocky helmet with hammer arm and roost. But, I found this set on ladder and found it to be a very interesting lure for faster mons that think they can easily knock it out due to Buzzwole's low SpDf.
Buzzwole @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leech Life / Lunge
- Ice Punch / Stone Edge
- Earthquake / Stone Edge
- Superpower
252 Atk Buzzwole Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pidgeot-Mega: 246-291 (80.1 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Buzzwole Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 262-309 (81.6 - 96.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock - Earthquake also knocks it out
Buzzwole with choice scarf reaches 423 speed which is enough to out speed Infernape, Latias, Azelf, Mega Absol, Raikou, Mega Pidgeot, and Mega Houndoom; all of which (except Raikou to a certain extent) give Buzzwole a tough time if Buzz isn't behind a sub or simply doesn't run sub on it's other sets. So, Buzzwole is at freedom to knock these pokes out with it's respective coverage as a lot of these mons get easily knocked out even without rocks up. Luring in and taking out Latias, Mega Pidgeot, and Mega Houndoom is really good as all 3 are huge threats in the metagame right now. Feel free to tell me what you think of this set as I will read it to find out what I've might have missed with this set.
 

Moutemoute

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Since I've allready gave my opinion about Xurkitree, I would like ton answer to Sacri's post, especially the part when he talks about the ban of Drought / Drought + Houdoom-Mega.
After Hikari & eht posts I decided to build my own Sun team and I played with it on the ladder. After many game I think I could give a developped opinion about Drought + Doom-Mega.

Firstable, I would like to say that it's clearly not easy to play around the Sun Team in the actual UU and it's not as splashable as Rain Team were in the beginning of the tier. Furthermore, it's trully like HO team, you need to know at the team preview, how you will win because since you lost your Sun Inducer (most of the time cuz' of this freaking Entry Hazards) it will be very hard to win. I played many games and everytime, I've seen some natural check to the Sun Team (Hydreigon Scarf or Fast Volt-Turn with Pidgeot-Mega / Beedrill-Mega which force you to switch a lot.. and you will take again and again EH). Hippodown & Rain Dance Swampert/Tornadus are really annonying too because they stop your weather which forcing you to keep Ninetales as long as this Pokemon are not K.O. Tbh since the drop, fire type are more popular and your Sun help the opponent fire type (and that can be really annoying vs Scarf Nape / Darma or Entei Band).

I would not deny that Sun Team are not strong but I clearly don't think a Suspect seem legit.

If people want to try Sun team they can use mine. Not perfect, but enough to reach top 30 in the UU Ladder : [url]http://prntscr.com/fj86ka[/URL]


http://pokepast.es/1d3b14960a335bff

Ninetales (F) @ Firium Z
Ability: Drought
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Toxic
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam

Houndoom-Mega (M) @ Houndoominite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Flame Charge
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast

Klefki (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Toxic
- Magnet Rise
- Play Rough

Hydreigon (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- U-turn
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast

Tsareena @ Leftovers
Ability: Queenly Majesty
EVs: 248 HP / 100 SpD / 160 Spe
Careful Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Synthesis
- Trop Kick
- U-turn

Jellicent (F) @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex

As you can see, I don't have Stealth Rocks on my team.. y forgot them when I builed..
The main objective is to Sweep with Houndoom-Mega thanks to Nasty Plot or Flame Charge. NP allows Houndoom to pass though Bulky team which are slower than it. Flame Charge allows it to outspeed every Mega-Pokemon and Scarf in the tier. Ninetales is the Sun inducer and a great Wallbreaker thanks to NP + Firium Z + Fire/Grass Coverage (Toxic is mainly here to poison Latias / Hydreigon at the beginning of the game because they are current Switch-in at Ninetales). After that Klefki can stack the spikes and use Toxic to weak opponent Pokemon. Tsareena is mainly there for the Hazard Control and Spin Away Sr etc.. and it appreciates Sun with Synthesis. The EV spread in SpD allows Tsareena to take care of Sceptile-Mega (even with HP Fire if the Sun isn't active). Jellicent can check and counter a lot of strong Physical attackers (like Beedrill-Mega, Aerodactyl-Mega, Cobalion etc..). Finnaly, Hydreigon Scarf can finish an opponent team if Houdoom-Mega is K.O are too low in HP and is making a gr8 core of U-Turn users with Tsareena.
 
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AWWW YEAH MEGA TIME

The two UBs are probably the best drops out of the ones we got. Xurk is an absolute menace with any set, as Electrium Z Tail Glow literally one shots anything, as you all have seen:

+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 679-801 (95 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

0.o

Speed boosting sets are equally dangerous, with Z-Electric Terrain boosting the wire's power to frightening levels and making it basically impossible to check without a scarfer (Krook is the best solution). Z-Hypnosis is a bit less reliable but still dangerous as when it gets a hit off it allows Xurk to go to +3 or even +6 without any problems and that's gg right there. On the fence if this thing should be cut.

I don't think Buzzwole is outright broken, or banworthy for that matter. However, I will say it is a top tier threat and incredibly scary to face. While not on Xurkitree's levels of power, Buzzwole is diverse with its sets and still hits incredibly hard. SubPunch is dangerous as it lets Buzzwole get a KO/solid 2HKO on anything that doesn't resist, get the BEASHT BOOHST if it kills, and proceed to sweep slower teams. Its also crazy bulky on the physical side, basically invalidating mons like Krook and Scarf Terrak and it can recover off the damage it does take with Leech Life/Roost. It's definitely held back by its speed and poor matchup against top tier mons such as Latias and MAero, and even neutral special hits can do significant damage to it, so its manageable in my eyes.

Mega Pidge and Mega Bee are both great megas that dropped; Pidgeot is back to spamming Hurricane just as it did last gen before the ban (but it'll actually stay in the tier this time). Lack of relevant flying resists is incredible for it as well as the mega speed buff, letting it reach its amazing speed tier instantly, but the confusion nerf hurts it like hell. Its also the best offensive Buzzwole check the tier has to offer at the moment.

Bee is the mega that probably benefits the most from the speed mechanics change, allowing it to forgo protect and not suffer 4MSS as badly as it did last gen. Its STABs are as good as ever and U-Turn allows it to bop things like Lati as well as gain crucial momentum. Its still vulnerable to scarfers and frail as ever, and Bug typing hurts it defensively. Its still incredible.

Will post the rest of my thoughts later.
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
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UU & Tour Head
A vote will also be held following each major tier shift, where council members can nominate current metagame elements for a quickban as well as new drops from OU.
As per our tiering policy, the council will begin making nominations for potential bans shortly. We will start making nominations on Thursday, as that is one week after the tier shift. Once any potential bans are discussed and voted on, we will return to our usual process of re-testing elements that were banned during UU Beta.

The rotating council for this round of votes/re-tests will be Christo, pokeisfun and TDK. Also, for those who missed the announcement earlier, Eyan has been promoted to the permanent council following dodmen's retirement.
 
Speed boosting sets are equally dangerous, with Z-Electric Terrain boosting the wire's power to frightening levels and making it basically impossible to check without a scarfer (Krook is the best solution). Z-Hypnosis is a bit less reliable but still dangerous as when it gets a hit off it allows Xurk to go to +3 or even +6 without any problems and that's gg right there.
Mega Aero outspeeds +1 Xurkitree actually and KOs with EQ
252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Xurkitree: 296-350 (96.4 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Also, having bug typing on Mega Beedrill doesn't hurt it that much defensively; bug typing paired up with posion typing allows it to take mach punches a lot better as it has a frail physical defense and weak base HP, and mach punch is the most commonly used priority right now. With bisharp out of the tier, you really only have to worry about Scizor's priority bullet punch doing a lot of damage (since it is on like 20% of teams).
 
Finally the saviour of Pokemónkind returns to UU.

I don't think Mega Pidgeot will be banned now. It has more strong or soft counters/checks and confusion was a bit nerfed.
Mega Aerodactyl was also around and S rank too when it was banned so it's likely not the Stone God of UU that will decide alone where it will end.

Offensively Hurricane is as good as it was. It does massive damage to anything that does not resist it, although it doesn't KO super-frail neutral pokémon.
On top of that, the gambler card of confusion.

Gastrodon is a great partner for Mega Pidgeot with great synergy as it beats most of the Rock and Electric types that Mega Pidgeot needs help with, including Mega Aerodactyl, Raikou and Empoleon, while Mega Pidgeot kills the grass types that Gastrodon dies to.

Xurkitree is a great threat, although it can't switch in without being put in red zone as Hurricane does 40% minimum and Hyper Beam OHKOs.
vs Mamoswine it depends who has chip damage, as full health Mega Pidgeot never dies to Ice Shard (!) and Hurricane does 86% minimum. In any case it's a good MPidgeot check.
Scizor also can or cannot check it, depending on the set and boosts, as Heat Wave naturally OHKOs and Hurricane does massive damage.
Against Latias it also depends on the sets, any of them can win.

In general 1v1 Mega Pidgeot is very strong but cannot switch in many things.

The pure stall breaker set is more fragile due to having more revenge killers this time.

I would like to mention Feather Dance and Tailwind, as they sometimes can be great.
Feather Dancing or Tailwinding on a switch in like Mega Aerodactyl is great and helps the team not lose momentum.
A fast Feather Dance + Roost + loss of all flying weaknesses before the opponent attacks (due to its speed) can frustrate many would-be physical checks.
 
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imo I think people be overhyping Xurkitree a little too much. Like yes it's an amazing breaker unlike any other mon UU has seen, but really, it just underperforms in actual practice/gameplay. Considering the offensive nature of the UU tier normally with mons like Conkeldurr and Hydreigon running every which way, Xurkitree will hardly get the chance to even get a Tail Glow up. And some of you might be wondering, "But what about stall? Surely Xurkitree clean 6-0es that!" Don't you think stall would do something about that? Any player with a normal functioning brain would understand that once Xurkitree sets up, its gonna do some damage. So, why not prevent it from doing that in the first place? And if you cant prevent it, why not try something else? Shedinja is a mon just begging to be used again, and sure, it wont be nearly as effective without Mega Sableye to basically negate the existence of hazards, but hazard control still exists in UU and can actually work. Also Diglett is something stall could run to trap it. And I know, it does sound like I'm saying that Xurkitree is overcentralizing, and I get that. So if those options seem "overcentralizing", how about Latias? Without Bisharp to basically deny Latias's existence, it could actually have a real use now, and what better way to make its presence known than to use it on stall as a Xurkitree answer?

Okay sorry for rant. Just wanted to put my two cents in on this whole thing. Also kinda sloppy considering I wrote this in like 5 minutes, but whatever.
 
I took you seriously until you mentioned both Shedinja or Diglett. Then I said to myself 'if stall needs to run niche answers to beat this thing, it's bad news anyways', and disregarded the rest.

I'm going to throw my hat into the ring and say that against Offense, Xurk has been underwhelming at best. But against Stall and even Balance, people are turning to things like Scarf Krookodile to beat it. Scarf Krookodile on Stall, that's right. Maybe it's not outright broken, but hell if I think it's a healthy presence in the tier.
 
I'm pretty sure scarf Krook was used on stall before Xurk even dropped to pursuit trap threats like latias, nasty plot celebi, gengar, etc. so its not like scarf krook on stall is such a crazy concept. Band weavile stall in ORAS (i think) OU was like one of the best stall teams for a while.

and literally stall teams work by having to adapt to the metagame so it makes sense that stall would have to change a bit to prepare for a new threat?? if stall was forced into running something like diglett then Xurk might be broke but its not yet (and will never be i hope lol)

the Xurk v balance matchup is pretty borked tho, altho most balance teams should have some kinda scarfer that can outspeed, or a mon that can tank a hit. if the team is weakened then sure Xurk can sweep but so can pretty much any offensive mon so i mean
 
Against an offensive team where their Pokemon are all quite fast, Xurkitree is relatively weak. However, against a bulky offense team with slower Pokemon, Xurkitree is able to utilize its wallbreaking capabilities to its full potential, especially with some Sticky Web support. I guess in a way, it is a mixed bag and I think its weaknesses compensate for its huge damage output.

The only thing to note though, is that if we do indeed decide to keep Xurkitree, M-Pidgeot, M-Swampert, Mamoswine, M-Sceptile etc. in UU, then perhaps we should re-evaluate some of the Pokemon in BL, since a lot of them really aren't that much stronger than the above, such as Thundurus / Tornadus-T, Azumarill, Gyarados, Serperior etc.
 
Against an offensive team where their Pokemon are all quite fast, Xurkitree is relatively weak. However, against a bulky offense team with slower Pokemon, Xurkitree is able to utilize its wallbreaking capabilities to its full potential, especially with some Sticky Web support. I guess in a way, it is a mixed bag and I think its weaknesses compensate for its huge damage output.

The only thing to note though, is that if we do indeed decide to keep Xurkitree, M-Pidgeot, M-Swampert, Mamoswine, M-Sceptile etc. in UU, then perhaps we should re-evaluate some of the Pokemon in BL, since a lot of them really aren't that much stronger than the above, such as Thundurus / Tornadus-T, Azumarill, Gyarados, Serperior etc.
Azumarill was resuspected but it remained banned. That one isn't coming back
 
Azumarill was resuspected but it remained banned. That one isn't coming back
Yes I understand, but what I am saying is that it might be a bit unfair for Pokemon like Azumarill to be banned, if we allow the newly introduced Pokemon to stay in UU, since I would say their levels are generally on par with each other.

For example, Mamoswine has Great Bulk, Thick Fat, Powerful STABs / Coverage and a Powerful Priority Attack. It also has access to Stealth Rock. I would personally put it on the same level as Azumarill or even higher. So if Mamoswine stays in UU, then wouldn't it be arguable that Azumarill should be given an opportunity to come back as well?
 
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esche

woohoo
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Cookees said:
The only thing to note though, is that if we do indeed decide to keep Xurkitree, M-Pidgeot, M-Swampert, Mamoswine, M-Sceptile etc. in UU, then perhaps we should re-evaluate some of the Pokemon in BL, since a lot of them really aren't that much stronger than the above, such as Thundurus / Tornadus-T, Azumarill, Gyarados, Serperior etc.
ah yes lets introduce even more threats because there totally arent enough of those atm.
not like they were borked the first time they dropped and now that there is company for them we should just let them back in because they are just as strong.
the tier will be likely to handle it, right? no. thats not how you create a balanced tier. fighting fire with fire has not and will not work out. ever.

personally, i am 100% positive that xurkitree will receive the boot because it invalidates defensive playstyles on its own, having to resort to ridiculous countermeasures to beat it. anyway, the council is currently looking into all of the potential ban- and suspect-worthy pokemon, of which i reckon there are quite a few, and afterwards will hold votes on all of the nominees. after some time, they will be reintroduced one by one with the aim to create an enjoyable and balanced metagame that isnt characterized by complete matchup dependency and hyper offensive playstyles only.

'fairness' does not have anything to do with re-allowing mons into a tier that have been previously deemed unhealthy just because the tier has become unhealthy again since other threats have been introduced.
 

Freeroamer

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In your particular Mamoswine Azumarill comparison, there are several factors that you didn't give consideration to that will hopefully explain why Azumarill is considered broken while Mamoswine isn't. First of all their typing, I would put Water / Fairy and Ice / Ground on roughly even ground offensively, but defensively Water / Fairy is streets ahead. While Mamoswine finds itself hard pressed to switch into anything but Electrics that only have HP Ice for coverage, Azumarill finds tons of switchin opportunities on resisted hits which makes its offensive capabilities even more fearsome, due to the fact it gets to attack more often. Secondly Azumarill possessed genuine sweeping potential vs every archetype in its Z-Belly Drum set, which allowed it to set up virtually at any time in the match whatever health it was at, assuming it wasn't about to be KOed by the mon in front of it. This meant teams were forced to build and play carefully around Azumarill, lest they pack Water resists not capable of beating a +6 Azumarill or if they let them get too weakened early game then they would get cleaned. While Mamoswine's Ice Shard is a great tool, it cannot compare to the level of sweeping capability Azumarill possessed and how constraining it made building and playing around it.

Something I've found very fun in this metagame is the combination of Specs Rotom-Mow and Alolan-Muk. There are very few good answers to a Specs Trick Mow, and even less when the risk of a Muk lies in the back. I don't have a super solid build with it to share yet, but it's been an extremely fun combination thus far and one of the best and easiest ways to use Muk I've found.
 
Nightingales said:
I took you seriously until you mentioned both Shedinja or Diglett. Then I said to myself 'if stall needs to run niche answers to beat this thing, it's bad news anyways', and disregarded the rest.

I'm going to throw my hat into the ring and say that against Offense, Xurk has been underwhelming at best. But against Stall and even Balance, people are turning to things like Scarf Krookodile to beat it. Scarf Krookodile on Stall, that's right. Maybe it's not outright broken, but hell if I think it's a healthy presence in the tier.
yeah I understand my point was kinda garb, but like I said I was on a time constraint and didn't have time to do research. Also trapping on stall is a thing and always will be, whether it be scarf krook or diglett. if trapping isnt an option, I did bring up latias as an example (although im not sure if latias is a full counter so dont quote me, but its the closest thing i could think of). also yeah sheddy was a dumb point, ill admit. anyway stall is stall and no matter the threat, its gonna find a way to adapt (i know i didnt bring up balance but i never had experience using or facing balance so thats why i ignored it)

bsu said:
the Xurk v balance matchup is pretty borked tho, altho most balance teams should have some kinda scarfer that can outspeed, or a mon that can tank a hit. if the team is weakened then sure Xurk can sweep but so can pretty much any offensive mon so i mean
balance is supposed to be a mix of offense and stall strategies, right? so i don't see anything wrong with using a scarfer on a balance team. also xurk isnt a mon thats going to sweep on its own; it simply doesnt have the stats and/or movepool to do so (not enough speed (83 isnt the best), bad bulk (i mean really it dies to anything with a base power higher than 90, unless i severely underestimated xurks bulk and it somehow lives specs hydras draco), not the best movepool)

(also suggestion, wot about msteelix? its type and bulk sounds like it could work on stall as a xurk answer and answer to just a lot of frail setup breakers in general (also doesnt sound like the worst idea for a hydra answer))

okay i really need to stop, xurk is just one of my favorite mons ever and the last thing i want to see is it becoming completely useless, however i do understand the threat xurkitree poses to slower teams, but in my personal opinion i do think people were overhyping it too much (okay done for real now sorry for long post)
 
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