np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 1 - Oops!...I Did It Again

[Vall]

Gen 8: Boots/Dex Cut/Teleport buff/Pursuit and HP removal
Gen 9; Recovery move nerf/Big moveset nerfs (Barra losing Flip Turn, Pex losing Knock, Blissey losing Teleport)

That's not what I'm talking about. Those aren't universal effects. That's like saying the defining addition to Gen 8 was Aegislash's BST drop. I'm talking about fundamental changes to the battle system. Those are changes to specific moves, items, abilities, mons.

Special Split fundamentally changed how pokemon operated: pokemon with high special stats would no longer be offensive/devensive behemoths. Abilities gave almost every mon a a unique functionality, while the physical-special split gave every mon the ability to use coverage on its stronger stat, HA revamped abilities, giving a lot crazier ones than most normal abilities, while the introduction of Fairies changed the way the type chart works contributing to ghost/darks dominance in modern gens.

Recovery nerfs means that walls... do their job slightly worse.
Same goes for moveset nerfs.
Teleport, Pursuit & HP are all individual moves, same with HDB

 

[PokePoindexter]

Not to mention many of the best mons from Gen 8 aren't even in this current meta. No Tapus, UBs, Ferrothorn, Melmetal, Clefable, Alolan Ninetales, Arctozolt, to name a few. I'm pretty sure we can safely say a meta that doesn't have a bunch of Terrains or Hail/Snow in it is different enough from last Gen.

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

If a voter's goal is to maximize the number of viable mons/sets in OU-- I'm arguing that they should vote to keep Terra instead of banning it, because more options would be available in OU here even after necessary bans.

And just how many mons would need banning before terastalization can be considered remotely healthy???

Think--how many offensive mons would we have to ban due to Terra? I can only count 3-- Expathra, Annihilape and maybe Volcarona--Chi-yu and Chien-Pao are likely to get sent to Ubers regardless, and the others are just not broken even with Terra (esp with all the anti kingambit measure found in OU atm)

Those, plus Roaring Moon and Dragonite. AT LEAST. Special mention to Dragonite for being able to do Ekiller impressions thanks to Terastallization. And Annihilape for Rage Fist. Also, many of those show just how unhealthy Terastallization really is thanks to it enabling setup sweepers to set up on would-be answers. Special mention to Annihilape again, because Rage Fist gets stronger as it gets hit. The best counterplay to Annihilape is super effective attacks... but that's not reliable when it can change its type on the fly, making it no longer weak to whatever you were hoping to hit it with.

> Outright ban

Probably the worst option of the bunch. Yes, it removes some pretty nasty Tera Sweepers, but it also removes any potential defensive play the mechanic could have enabled, and the only things that really differentiate this meta from Gen 8 are the new mons, new moves, and the losses (until HOME compatibility drops). Maybe in a year or so once we are done with DLC (assuming it goes like how the Ilse of Armor & Crown Tundra did for SwSh) this will be the best option, but IMO it's far too early to ban Tera when their are other fish to fry (cough SHED TAIL / CYCLIZAR cough).

So you'd rather have STAB tera only than banning it? What. Also, just how sure are you that Tera type revealing on team preview will fix it??? Because in my book, it ain't a miracle panacea that'll make everything wrong with terastallization go away. Hell, I think Terastallization cannot be made into a healthy presence at all.

 

[swampmist1142]

And just how many mons would need banning before terastalization can be considered remotely healthy???

You asked this when the person had already answered, cmon now.

As for the actual answer; per UU there IS a cap on the number of mons that break tera, because they dont do it there. I’d also argue atleast a few of the mons you listed (annihilape) are likely to be suspected regardless of tera’s legality, so dont really seem like reasons tera is a problem.

 

[Finchinator]

The laddering phase of the suspect process ends tonight at midnight GMT-5 (a little over 12.5 hours from this post). The vote will open at 10am GMT-5 tomorrow morning.

Please don’t have me wake up tomorrow to dozens of people asking why the vote isn’t up. I have to sync it with the form and this timeline makes that possible.

 

[Komodo_Drogo]

How long will the vote be for?

 

[Finchinator]

How long will the vote be for?

Until we hit the necessary thresholds or the end of Friday

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

You asked this when the person had already answered, cmon now.

As for the actual answer; per UU there IS a cap on the number of mons that break tera, because they dont do it there. I’d also argue atleast a few of the mons you listed (annihilape) are likely to be suspected regardless of tera’s legality, so dont really seem like reasons tera is a problem.

It's kinda disingenuous - and generous - to assume that those three they mentioned are the only mons that are oppressive thanks to terastalization. As far as I can tell, many of the issues with Ape are thanks to tera allowing it to dodge super effective hits. I think that we can only definitively tell if Annihilape is a problem when it doesn't have the ability to dodge super effective hits with the power of bullshit--oops, I mean terastallization. And I'd mention Dragonite again thanks to being able to get STAB Extreme Speed. This being said, some mons can be busted independent of tera, but still.

 

[adenS]

So I've repeatedly tried and failed to get reqs, with my GXE capping out at around 65%. I figured I might as well share my thoughts though.

I don't think showing types at team preview solves anything. I'm practically always able to figure out that something is going to tera into 1 or 2 types. Annihilape is usually water or fire, Espathra is fairy or fighting, etc. The problem is that these offensive monsters can use tera to force immense pressure on the defender. Predicting what the tera is going to be usually isn't a problem, because ultimately these mons have checks they need to beat and are sacrificing a lot by running an off meta type to get the jump on someone.

I think the "tera captain" solution is a bit better. A part of what makes the guessing game so volatile is that it's a completely viable option to not tera and save it for later, so forcing them into a "use it or lose it" situation helps in that regard. I do think that this goes against the spirit of the concept somewhat, so I wouldn't want to vote for it if I could, but I understand that not everyone thinks that matters, which is fine.

I think it's pretty unanimous that STAB only is a bad idea.

Imo, the best options are either to completely ban tera, or to leave it unrestricted and ban all the abusers. If OU existed in a vacuum, I wouldn't have any preference, but given that I'm hearing UU players enjoy tera, I'm more inclined towards the latter, both to prevent collateral damage and to see if OU could become a meta where tera is fun, since we have proof of it happening. Should we go with a complete ban, there is a chance a lot of these tera abusers could be banned anyways, in which case I think a retest is absolutely necessary.

In short, my ballot would have looked like this:
No Action
Full Ban > Tera Captain > Show on Team Preview > STAB Only

 

[swampmist1142]

It's kinda disingenuous - and generous - to assume that those three they mentioned are the only mons that are oppressive thanks to terastalization. As far as I can tell, many of the issues with Ape are thanks to tera allowing it to dodge super effective hits. I think that we can only definitively tell if Annihilape is a problem when it doesn't have the ability to dodge super effective hits with the power of bullshit--oops, I mean terastallization. And I'd mention Dragonite again thanks to being able to get STAB Extreme Speed. This being said, some mons can be busted independent of tera, but still.

I dont think its disingenuous if they truly believe it, right?

Maybe so on annihilape, but by the same token if has a very powerful typing already and really good stats; tera certainly helps it but there’s a lot of factors going into him.

Dnite I will concede is good because of tera, but imo its not JUST stab espeed. Its also the fact that normal is a pretty dang good defensive typing to swap to from flying, and more-over that multiscale punishes turning a super effective move into a normal one super hard.

Still, that’s, what, 5 mons? My understanding is moon and valiant have fallen off as the test has gone on; for many people, thats a more acceptable ban than tera as a whole.

also, I still argue Espathra with tera and without shed tail may not need a ban.

 

[Finchinator]

I kind of have yet to see the claim that "Tera is proved to be not broken by UU not having the same issues" properly addressed/refuted by the ban side. What do people think about that?

This is an OU suspect for the OU metagame. There has never, ever been a provision to account for lower tiers when tiering for higher tiers.

This does not even mention the fact that UU is not even official yet and has not ran through a tiering process as a byproduct of this, making any preliminary conclusions on their tier hold little-to-no weight.

I am not even pro ban so much as I am pro restrict, but this is moot.

 

[DaemonChop]

Oh word, I swear someone in the UU thread said that it was relevant in this thread too. mb

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

This is an OU suspect for the OU metagame. There has never, ever been a provision to account for lower tiers when tiering for higher tiers.

So there isn't a provision to account for lower tiers during suspects, but what about using lower tiers as evidence for whether or not a pokemon is broken? Screw what UU wants, but the fact that tera isn't as broken there (even in the context where it isn't an official meta) should hold some weight, shouldn't it?

 

[swampmist1142]

This does not even mention the fact that UU is not even official yet and has not ran through a tiering process as a byproduct of this, making any preliminary conclusions on their tier hold little-to-no weight.

I am not even pro ban so much as I am pro restrict, but this is moot.

I think you’re conflating arguments here, and being a bit dismissive. The question wasnt about if UU should be tiered here, but rather that people playing pre-UU are reporting a very different feeling on Tera. This IS important data, because its direct proof against the claim that there is a near-endless well of Tera Abusers. It changes the ban vs no-ban discussion significantly if we believe tera will require 3-6 mon bans to be balanced vs 10+, and Pre-UU experience seems to be telling us the former.

 

[LadyLynn]

I think there is an argument that even though this OU suspect is strictly about, well, OU - Tera not being broken in UU can still be a valuable data point on whether OU could reach a healthy state with Tera still in it.

Of course, the counterargument would be that UU is too new and underexplored a metagame for us to be able to say "yes, tera is not broken in UU".

I haven't played any UU, so I can't really say to what degree that might be accurate.

(EDIT: Wow, multiple people jumped on this immediately, haha. Apologies if this is making you feel ganged up on, Finch - that was not my intention.)

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

Of course, the counterargument would be that UU is too new and underexplored a metagame for us to be able to say "yes, tera is not broken in UU".

Right, but OU only has like 2 weeks more experience than UU. IMO, there has been enough time for UU to provide enough of a feel for a meta to carry enough weight.

Tbh, I'm a little frustrated that lower tiers aren't as official as OU when OU skipped its alpha phase entirely and could make its obvious bans right away (stupid Espathra in UU), but this isn't the place for that discussion, so I won't make further comments.

EDIT: When I say lower tiers aren't as official, I meant that they each have a month-long alpha state where no action can be taken by the council that OU didn't have to deal with.

 

[Railroader17]

So you'd rather have STAB tera only than banning it? What. Also, just how sure are you that Tera type revealing on team preview will fix it??? Because in my book, it ain't a miracle panacea that'll make everything wrong with terastallization go away. Hell, I think Terastallization cannot be made into a healthy presence at all.

I did not imply that Tera team preview would fix EVERYTHING wrong with the mechanic and the meta at the moment, heck I even said that I would be open to a Tera ban later on once we have a 100% definitive roster of mons after the DLC and Home are finished and released, as well as more bans and innovations under the new meta's belt. All I said was that it is too early right now to ban it, and that my preference would be to go with Tera on Team Preview for now to removes the surprise factor of Tera without kneecapping the mechanic or mons that really like the mechanic entirely.

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

I dont think its disingenuous if they truly believe it, right?

Maybe so on annihilape, but by the same token if has a very powerful typing already and really good stats; tera certainly helps it but there’s a lot of factors going into him.

Dnite I will concede is good because of tera, but imo its not JUST stab espeed. Its also the fact that normal is a pretty dang good defensive typing to swap to from flying, and more-over that multiscale punishes turning a super effective move into a normal one super hard.

Still, that’s, what, 5 mons? My understanding is moon and valiant have fallen off as the test has gone on; for many people, thats a more acceptable ban than tera as a whole.

also, I still argue Espathra with tera and without shed tail may not need a ban.

I'd still say it's kinda naive and overly optimistic.

While that may be true, I'd say tera is pushing it over the edge thanks to allowing it to avoid super effective hits.

And that's the problem. With terastallization in general.

That's 5 mons that might not be oppressive if we actually hit the root of the problem, AKA terastallization. Consigning the abusers to ubers instead is just a band-aid solution, which is to say, it's only superficial and might not even solve the problem in the long run.

I'd disagree with that because as was posted earlier, its performance against common darks is kinda lacking without tera fairy to save its ass. Look at these:

+2 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 133-157 (39 - 46%)
+2 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chi-Yu: 99-117 (39.4 - 46.6%)
+2 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam affected by Vessel of Ruin vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ting-Lu: 146-172 (28.4 - 33.4%)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chien-Pao: 248-292 (82.3 - 97%)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Meowscarada: 234-276 (79.8 - 94.1%)

That's not looking so great.

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

I'd disagree with that because as was posted earlier, its performance against common darks is kinda lacking without tera fairy to save its ass. Look at these:


That's not looking so great.

Does Espathra usually run 0 SpA EVs? That seems very strange to me tbh. I don't usually run Espathra tho and haven't taken a look at its thread to see what people have been running, so that could be common for all I know.

 

[swampmist1142]

I'd disagree with that because as was posted earlier, its performance against common darks is kinda lacking without tera fairy to save its ass. Look at these:


That's not looking so great.

So I saw those. My question is: why are we assuming it needs to ohko Chi-yu and co when shed tail exists? Even without tera, if you swap most of those dark types into an invested +1 espathra behind a sub (assuming it calm minds on the free turn sub gives it), it only needs to 2 hit because you need to break the sub.

That is to say, Im still not convinced the problem is tera and not shed tail. Tera is SOMETIMES a “free” turn, if you’re bulky enough and/or your oppo runs out of priority. A substitute is by definition always a free turn.

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

Does Espathra usually run 0 SpA EVs? That seems very strange to me tbh. I don't usually run Espathra tho and haven't taken a look at its thread to see what people have been running, so that could be common for all I know.

The same post that came from also had calcs with a more offensive spread for Espathra:

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 179-212 (48.3 - 57.2%)
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Espathra Dazzling Gleam affected by Vessel of Ruin vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ting-Lu: 198-234 (38.5 - 45.5%) (and eq now 2hkos)
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chi-Yu: 134-159 (53.3 - 63.3%)
It kills chien pao and meowscarada cleanly, but must be wary of sucker punch.

 

[swampmist1142]

The same post that came from also had calcs with a more offensive spread for Espathra:

These were the ones i was thinking of; all but ting lu die to two gleams, which a sub allows. Ting needs three, but can’t kill in one common move even before tera.

Also, in the low investment case, how much does a kingambit do on an iron head if you don’t tera fairy? If you do? How about on the followup sucker punch? How much does chi-yu do on a common fire move? Because if they can kill, then you cant afford to tera fairy since you dont ohko anyway?

Just did the kinggambit calcs; with 2 allies dead and assuming you don’t tera steel, you miss iron head+sucker KOing by a little after leftied, though iron head cleanly 2 hits psychic espathra, Slightly better with life orb vs boots. HOWEVER if espathra doesnt manage two calm minds before you hit it, i.e if it doesnt have a sub, it only 3 hit KOs AFTER TERA with gleam, meaning if you keep hitting iron head you kill it unless it switches.

Did another calc; if defensive Espathra only has one CM up, it gets OHKOedb by chi-yu Overheat, and if it hits CM the second time to live, fairy type dazzling gleam still doesnt kill.

 

[Aggapuffin]

Of course, the counterargument would be that UU is too new and underexplored a metagame for us to be able to say "yes, tera is not broken in UU".

Honestly, the argument that UU is too underdeveloped to draw any conclusions seems to instead point to holding off on banning/restricting, since that will give time for UU to develop and see if Tera not being broken there is because it hasn't developed yet or if it's just not broken at all.

 

[alephgalactus]

Go a page without mentioning a tier that isn’t the one we’re having the suspect test in challenge (impossible)

 

[swampmist1142]

Go a page without mentioning a tier that isn’t the one we’re having the suspect test in challenge (impossible)

Again, dismissing it ignores the weight of proof it has on the “there will just be another broken mon” hypothesis. I know you’ve said that ANY mon banned because of tera is too many but that’s not been the argument by your peers.