!!!! fast enough to encore the fat shit, fat enough (well, + tera in an emergency) to encore the fast scary shit
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Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 15 - Higher Ground [SEE POST 2 FOR NEW SUSPECT INFO]
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There are already 29 voters qualified, the changes didn't affect the number of voters, so I'm sorry but nah, making the requirements differently was probably the good call. In fact, you won't actually see well played Gliscors up until the 1700s, so it's better that's mandatory getting to that elo
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Voting requirements taking more games is by design and a good change. The first 20-25 games you hardly face real teams and may not face the suspect being used much at all.
Forcing people to play anywhere from 5-15 more real games than they normally would is a good thing. Voting is serious and a slightly longer time commitment is a worthwhile trade-off.
With this said, this thread isn’t about giving your opinion on voting req reform. The PR thread on the topic will be re-opened after this suspect and we obviously are not changing mid-suspect, so get back to discussing Gliscor here.
Forcing people to play anywhere from 5-15 more real games than they normally would is a good thing. Voting is serious and a slightly longer time commitment is a worthwhile trade-off.
With this said, this thread isn’t about giving your opinion on voting req reform. The PR thread on the topic will be re-opened after this suspect and we obviously are not changing mid-suspect, so get back to discussing Gliscor here.
I still need to collect my thoughts before posting more in this thread, but given the fact that it's literally happened before it's definitely not "virtually impossible to predict." Gliscor has already been banned once in SV, and it led to balance structures becoming incredibly difficult to pressure and break down across archetypes and stall players grasping at straws to futilely put any viable team together. Recognizing the effects of an hypothesis last time it was tested is not "fearmongering" - it's the definition of science.
I recognize the primary aim of a suspect thread is to demonstrate a Pokémon has adequate counterplay available, not to theorize what will happen in its absence. My thanks to those that have already provided some of the countless examples in this thread, the qualified thread, and the meta discussion thread. However, acting as if we have literally no idea what may happen is, forgive the term, just willful ignorance.
I think it's also fair to say that that prior Metagame isn't definitely reflective of what we'd have if we repeat the Gliscor ban. Several tools are available that would heavily undercut those infamous structures like ZapKingLu (Kyurem and Raging Bolt certainly take advantage of the members if they show up), and DLC1 also didn't last long enough to know if those structures were truly overbearing or counterplay had not been experimented with and found.
A hypothesis is one thing, but it's a stretch to call it scientific because one part of such conclusions is controlling for as many variables as possible outside the one specifically being changed for observations. In this case the glut of new Pokemon/Move options DLC2 brought does not make the comparison 1-1, so it's fair to believe it wouldn't reflect the same environment that allowed those structures to dominate without Gliscor around last time.
Can u make the qualified voting list more accessible. There is two threads talking about the suspect and most of the links are just marked (here) and its forcing me to actually read every time I want to find the list of people who have qualified for the suspect test
I mean having a link where you can click to see the full parameters of the suspect, every single person who qualified, and the alt they used seems like a huge upgrade from having to go through pages of voter ID — not sure what more you want. I can copy the list from the link into the OP of the qualified thread, but one way or another you need to follow a simple link to find an accessible list.
I agree with their point. A tiny link that says (here) buried in a wall of other text is hard to find. One of showdown's own design principles is that buttons say what they do -- no reason Smogon can't do that too. Making the hyperlink stand out so it's easy to find when skimming is a simple request to fulfill. For example, you could have a link in its own line in big text, like this, instead:
LIST OF VERIFIED VOTERS
I agree a bigger hyperlink is smart. My point was that moving the list onto the forums doesn’t change anything — I will edit in a more standout hyperlink into OPs. Thank you.
Edit: Done, appreciate the feedback
ok so i wasn't going to interact with this thread or suspect at all, but speak of the wolf and he'll come to your door. at first your post looked fine when i gave it a once-over, and it started out strong, but the spread of reacts gave me pause so i reread it and noticed a couple, shall we say, irregularities:
i'd like to preface this by saying that i am firmly pro-ban on gliscor. we're ultimately on the same side here. nothing i say here should be taken as a defense of gliscor
now, what you could have mentioned about hex that would put you on much stronger ground is that gliscor's most common tera type is immune to it
not only do the choice users you mentioned all handily beat or at least severely chunk gliscor, but you haven't come even close to covering the depth and breadth of choice users in the tier. do you think gliscor particularly appreciates catching an ice spinner from band dragonite? or a freeze-dry from specs kyurem? a tachyon cutter from specs iron crown? or, dipping into more niche territory since you brought up "memes", what about a surf from specs primarina? a hydro steam from specs walking wake? an ice beam from specs darkrai?
stall's not niche, it's not radically different from other playstyles (in fact it's closer to semistall and fat balance this gen than it's traditionally been), and if its variety were really that limited then we wouldn't see people peaking in high or top ladder with stuff like tera ice hydrapple or monopoison or quagsire hard stall. i've tried not to be accusatory up until this point, but i can't shake the feeling that you just hate stall so much that you're just making up reasons why it shouldn't be considered in tiering
i get what you're saying, but i don't think making the game "fun again" should necessarily be a priority. the most fun i had in sv ou was the terapagos meta but you don't see me going around saying we should tier to recreate that
i agree that prim doesn't like coming in on gliscor, but why futz around with psychic noise at all instead of just clicking surf? and for that matter, where's hatterene on this list? you've definitely got a point about the other two though, they hate both eq and knock so they can't safely come in, but they still make it difficult for gliscor to switch into them also
how are you getting garg in safely against prim, getting a salt cure off, and then getting scor in safely? why would the prim stay in after the salt cure? and how is this unique to gliscor? you could argue prim has a terrible matchup against almost anything if you go "and when you add garganacl to the mix, the chances of winning drastic go down". also, toxic is the least bullshit element of gliscor. it was a prominent factor in its dlc1 brokenness but is really only a minor factor in its brokenness in the modern age. it's the sd sets that are the big issue now
why does it matter if hex users can't inflict status on gliscor? it's statused, ain't it? doesn't matter who the status comes from, hex gets the boost anyway
i mean, if balloon ghold walls non-knock scor, then it walls non-knock scor. how hard the opponent tries to pop the balloon doesn't enter into it because if the balloon pops then it's by definition no longer balloon ghold. and what about balloon ghold sets that don't have hex and go for nasty plot instead? those actively use non-knock scor as setup fodder. and aside from all that, with the calcs you posted there's still a very high chance for hex ghold to just win this matchup outright if gliscor doesn't roll high on both eq hits
ok so there are several issues with this one. first, basically any chip at all beforehand fucks over gliscor in this matchup. now, it's true that gliscor is difficult to actually chip because it tends to not stay chipped, but it's something that should at least be factored in. second, band pult is actually less of a meme now than it's been for quite a while. third, band pult isn't a hex user so not sure what a mention of it is doing in this section. lastly, you're assuming that the default here is that gliscor is running knock, but for other parts you're assuming the default is that it doesn't have knock. this weird inconsistency goes on all throughout the post
now, what you could have mentioned about hex that would put you on much stronger ground is that gliscor's most common tera type is immune to it
??????????????? why are we bringing up iron moth here at all. no one ever said iron moth was a gliscor answer in the first place. you can't just use "this mon that everyone agrees gets folded by gliscor—gasp!—can't answer it" as a pro-ban argument
saying "roaring moon can't break gliscor without dd" is like saying a car can't break the speed limit without gasoline. literally just click the move and you win the matchup
adding up the totals for last month's 1695 stats, a little over 50% of valiants are running either cm or sd (the overlap of sets containing both cm and sd is negligible because that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard of). over 30% of valiants run encore, and although that has a fairly significant overlap with the other two, there are also plenty of valiants with encore and no setup. so statistically, if you're up against a valiant, it's probably going to have at least one solid anti-gliscor tool. and please stop bringing up toxic, it's not a factor in why gliscor is on the chopping block right now
bro what the actual shit are you talking about right now. encore is a perfectly fine thing to run on hamurott
yes, it is. that's why no one is out there using stone edge lando-t as a gliscor answer. why is this even being mentioned
here's the thing: even after a turn of poison heal, you still have a fair chance of 2hkoing. a competent gliscor user that knows this is very likely to click protect on turn 2 of this interaction to get extra healing that guarantees the second draco can't kill it… which means you can use that turn to instead switch to a different mon that can finish gliscor off. now, this isn't necessarily the case if you've been knocked, but that first draco still chunks gliscor in a way that poison heal alone can't quickly repair, so you've at minimum softened it up for other breakers, sweepers, cleaners, etc to finish the job
same dealio as specs, at the absolute least you're softening it up for something else and at most you can claim the kill. fewer people use tera fairy scor than encore hamurott or band pult so if those are memes then fairy scor is a supermeme. and "if they can tell it's banded damage" there's actually not much they can do besides protecting or switching turn 2, since if they click knock you just outspeeds and kill 77% of the time (actually significantly more than 77% because you also have four total crit opportunities). so band pult is actually a quite reliable kill option against gliscor unless you get knocked turn 1, and even if you do you're still dealing a chunk
for god's sake. if grassy glide doesn't kill then click the move that does. don't be scared of the recoil—part of what makes rilla so good in the first place is that grassy terrain offsets the recoil by a pretty significant degree. and the entire concept of "risking recoil" is kind of silly because for strong recoil moves the reward tends to massively outweigh the risk
what the hell is classifying sun as the "nuclear option" for band roaring moon supposed to mean? sun is the only place you'll see this set, everything else is running ddance. a properly played roaring moon can beat gliscor pretty consistently
you can't just keep designating niche-but-legit sets as "memes" while simultaneously propping up the actual meme set of tera fairy gliscor as real. just because a set is niche doesn't automatically make it a meme unless it's being deliberately overrated, and no one is out there preaching the gospel of specs bolt or any of these other guys
not only do the choice users you mentioned all handily beat or at least severely chunk gliscor, but you haven't come even close to covering the depth and breadth of choice users in the tier. do you think gliscor particularly appreciates catching an ice spinner from band dragonite? or a freeze-dry from specs kyurem? a tachyon cutter from specs iron crown? or, dipping into more niche territory since you brought up "memes", what about a surf from specs primarina? a hydro steam from specs walking wake? an ice beam from specs darkrai?
you're going off against "meme sets" and then presenting life orb glimmora as though it's an actual thing, while simultaneously admitting it "doesn't do much"? what the fuck is this?
jesus mary and joseph just click the fucking 4x move. don't keep it to yourself as some sort of stupid mindgame
what the fuck do you mean "needing to wait to dd"? it's one turn. you click dd right away. how short is your attention span? how did you have the patience to write a post this fucking long but you invent a fake ass life orb set because you don't have the time for clicking setup moves on a setup sweeper? no wonder you have such a boiling hatred for stall if a single turn of offensive setup is too boring for you
this is not actually a set that exists. hamurott runs sash, vest, boots, sometimes scarf, rarely black glasses, very rarely band, but no one is out here running life orb on it
so is every other life orb set you listed besides darkrai. and almost every other life orb set in existence, for that matter—i could write a whole essay about how life orb as an item drastically fell off to almost noobtrap level in this tier, but this isn't the time or place for it
kyurem just straight wins the fucking matchup bro. gliscor needs to be tera normal for kyurem to not force it out, and then you lose your spikes immunity so if something else does force you out you're gonna have issues coming back in
you don't switch glowking into gliscor, you have your glowking out beforehand and they switch in gliscor and get nailed by ice beam. positioning, conditioning, and the surprise factor are all key here. also, you seem to be convinced that not having a guaranteed ohko on gliscor is an automatic lost matchup. it's reminding me of that one guy in early sv who wanted to ban amoonguss because "nothing could ohko it"
forcing gliscor to tera or forcing it out are still positive outcomes. yes, sd tera normal facade gliscor really likes to tera and tends not to switch much afterwards, but it doesn't particularly love popping tera early because it restricts the opponent's decision space for the entire rest of the match (and also because zama is a pretty common late-game mon that loses to non-tera scor but beats tera normal). as for weavile and meow "getting protected on", forcing a switch with either of them means you can click knock off and make guaranteed progress, and with weavile you can even sd on the protect
carrying toxic means it's not gonna be the broken ass sd set, which means half of the stuff you've already listed can abuse non-sd gliscor's lackluster immediate damage output to chunk or kill it. carrying knock also somewhat limits the amount of shenanigans gliscor can pull—it has to drop one of eq or facade if it's sd, or spikes or toxic if it's non-sd. so if it's knock scor, sure, ghold and garg have problems against it, and this is a legitimate issue while playing against gliscor, but it also opens gliscor up to a whole host of matchups that are worse for it
name one person ever who's suggested glimm as an answer to gliscor besides yourself. this matchup only ever happens on lead and shouldn't even happen then because competent players will lead something else besides glimm if they think the opponent will lead scor
stop with the fucking nicknames. it's annoying and childish. what does "ogerbroad" even mean? also, she's a very reliable gliscor answer and you yourself admit it, so why are you bringing her up here at all? and what waterpon in november 2024 is running superpower?
veil and screens aren't good in the current climate in general. even if they were, atales has fucking ice moves and encore and grimm has taunt, einstein, neither one allows gliscor to set up. as for sub, people aren't using that as dedicated anti-scor tech, they're using it for general setup purposes
ice beam's pretty big on ttar in this tier because of lando, tusk, and, well, gliscor. you're right that almost no one is running sand in this tier, though. sun is really good against gliscor because, among other things, walking wake's on it. rain is also really good against gliscor—either you get dumpstered by boosted water moves or tera water and get dumpstered by electric moves. or you tera dragon and get dumpstered by raging bolt anyway. grassy terrain teams definitely do not struggle in the slightest against gliscor because even if it avoids getting nuked by rillaboom it's just a free meal for hawlucha
taunt is meant to prevent setup, hazards, and toxic in order to give free entry to things that beat gliscor when it's only allowed to use its lackluster base damage output. encore is meant to trap gliscor into hazards or setup or protect so the encore user can either set up itself or just deal tons of damage. they both do a very good job at dealing with gliscor. you can't just assume it's already set up
why does it matter that garg needs to curse, or that dozo needs to rest? who gives a shit? they win the matchup if they're played that way, how is that a negative? and no one is suggesting ice beam clef or ice punch garg or any of this nonsense. clef and garg are perfectly capable of winning the gliscor matchup without ice moves
i do agree that reaching below the tier something's in for answers to it is generally a bad sign, but there are fairly consistent offensive and defensive answers to gliscor in this tier, even if none of them can really switch into every scor set. you've already acknowledged most of them. i don't necessarily think gliscor is banworthy because of a lack of concrete answers in the tier. i think it's banworthy because it severely harms the viability of multiple playstyles and the overall health of the tier, the counterplay to sd and utility sets don't have much overlap, reliably answering the sd sets in the late game is extremely difficult, and gliscor can consistently force progress against even those things that do answer it. you haven't really touched upon any of these things yet except for sorta kinda the last one
gliscor isn't really a guess-my-set mon. you can pretty easily tell whether it's a spikes variant or an sd variant based on the presence or lack of another spikes setter on the team, and it's not overly hard to scout the attacks that sd sets are carrying. now, it's true that no single mon switches into every gliscor set except for the metal birds and the only progress said birds can realistically make in the matchup is hazard-related (either setting or removing depending on the bird), but there are mons that switch into most permutations of the spikes variant and other mons that switch into most permutations of the sd variant, and as i said, it's guessable from preview which one they're running
this is silly. not only is gliscor one of the best existing matchups against zapkinglu as both a core and a general playstyle, but if you're replacing zapdos with gliscor and glowking with "a stallmon of your choice" then two-thirds of the core is different and now it's not zapkinglu, it's some new thing that you can't fearmonger about as well because it doesn't have a catchy name. and how exactly were the options of garganacl and alomomomola "previously unavailable to gliscor"? they've been here and viable for a long time
i mentioned this earlier (at least i think i did, maybe i deleted it, i've spent all day on this shit), but gliscor doesn't like popping tera early. the utility sets become hazard-vulnerable and the normal sd set becomes vulnerable to stuff like zama and valiant
the balance matchup doesn't entirely revolve around gliscor bro
???????????????????????????????????
stall's not niche, it's not radically different from other playstyles (in fact it's closer to semistall and fat balance this gen than it's traditionally been), and if its variety were really that limited then we wouldn't see people peaking in high or top ladder with stuff like tera ice hydrapple or monopoison or quagsire hard stall. i've tried not to be accusatory up until this point, but i can't shake the feeling that you just hate stall so much that you're just making up reasons why it shouldn't be considered in tiering
i'm glad you chose to consider stall with the fairness it deserves for this argument; i hope you continue doing that in the future. you also raise a very good point: a gliscor ban is not going to kill stall. in some respects it's even a benefit to stall—they'll have one less hazard stacker to worry about, one less toxic spreader, one less knocker, one less status absorber. it loosens up a lot of builder restrictions on stall and will, i think, give the playstyle more variety. the fears that a gliscor ban will irreparably damage stall are largely unfounded. you did good with this one
none of these sets are anything beyond niche and they probably won't ever be. double dance just gets knocked turn 1 and loses the defining part of gliscor, u-turn is dropping either an important attack or an important utility move or sometimes both at once, tera fairy is dumb against everything besides dragons and most of the dragons out there can still dish out some serious hurt in some way, and tera poison poison jab is somehow dumber than all of the rest of the sets you suggested combined. besides all of this, we shouldn't be tiering based on what sets might develop in the future. i know i said something similar during the first gouging fire suspect and i ended up being absolutely right about what would happen, but the sentiment was wrong (and admittedly my argument was kind of a desperation ploy to try to turn public opinion back towards pro-ban). if we shouldn't make arguments based on whether or not certain playstyles will become dominant after something is banned, we also shouldn't base our arguments on whether or not certain sets will rise to prominence if something stays
this is surprisingly solid. so's your opening, generally. it seems that you're good with summaries, but when you go into the specifics you kinda fall apart. if you got a better view of meta trends by looking at the monthly stats, interacting with players in places like the ou discord, studying tournament replays to see what sets and interactions are common at high-level play, and (obviously) playing the game a lot more, you could back up your arguments with more relevant data instead of mentioning nonsense like tera ice serperior and confidently claiming that encore hamurott is a meme and that stall shouldn't be afforded the same consideration as other major playstyles
i don't think painting it in terms as black and white as "offensive threat + non-ohkoable = automatically unhealthy" is productive or correct. look at something like, say, dragonite. basically impossible to ohko because of multiscale, good offensive mon with setup and strong priority, extremely reliable progress maker, and guess what? perfectly fine mon. no one is out there seriously claiming dragonite is a problem. gliscor is extremely unhealthy, but not because all things that are hard to kill and can set up are axiomatically unhealthy
on the one hand, i'm flattered. on the other hand, i don't think a lot of the points i made there are very similar to the ones you're making here. my post was mostly analysis on how gliscor's place in the meta changed over the course of dlc2; yours consists mostly of "[thing] doesn't come in on gliscor and 1v1 it", and a good chunk of the things you mention either don't meaningfully exist, were never purported to be gliscor answers in the first place, or do actually beat gliscor a fair amount of the time even if they aren't reliable hard counters. but don't be upset; i saw some definite good points to your post and you're clearly making an effort. that's good! once you familiarize yourself with what does and doesn't happen in builder and on the battlefield, you'll be a force to be reckoned withIf you don't want to listen to me on this subject, you can listen to DaddyBuzzwole instead, he makes some similar points about Gliscor after changing his mind from previously thinking that it was fine and goes over some more metagame history in addition to going more in depth about set variety than I do.
since the topic of gliscor came up, here are my thoughts on it.
gliscor was unequivocally broken in dlc1, but i don't think it is right now. very strong? yes. the best spikes setter in this endless bloody war against hazards? without a doubt. annoying as shit? absolutely. but banworthy? i don't think so, and here's why:
PART 1: NEW ANSWERS
between new moves, returning mons, and expanded movepools, dlc2 introduced some options that can beat gliscor 1v1 fairly easily:
thanks to regaining triple axel, weavile is much more splashable than before and...
I think Gliscor is banworthy. I don’t like to play against it, and I’m sure you, the reader, don’t like playing against it either. It goes deeper than just being annoying, however, as the strain it puts on the builder is palpable.
When building fatter structures, Gliscor is a major buildercheck. Even if you have checks on your team, there is a chance that Gliscor will Terastallize into a type that flips your checks into checked. Checkmate. The Terastallization issue is also exacerbated by the fact that taking down a Gliscor often requires either boosted or supereffective hits, which it can just tera away from. Sound familiar? (
?) Gliscor, as well as all the other threats in the tier, make it hard to build fatter structures that can accommodate for all the breakers. If you only have one Gliscor answer, it can just tera and you lose. If you have several, there’s a good chance they’ll be chipped and outlasted over the course of the game via hazards, toxic, and attacks not just from Gliscor but from its teammates too. Oftentimes, playing against Gliscor can feel like a 6-7.
There is also the matter of set variation. There are defensive sets which set hazards and click Toxic, and offensive sets which click Swords Dance. Within the subcategories, there is also set variation. Checks/counters to the standard EQ Toxic set suddenly lose to Poison Jab/Knock variants (
, Tera Fly Taunt 
). Swords Dance sets have variation, too. There’s EQ/Facade walled by Sinistcha, but Knock/Facade wins that 1v1. Kingambit can beat Knock/Facade, but loses to EQ variants. You could scout, but in doing so Gliscor could get another SD off or get big hits off on your mons.
Even if you scare out a Gliscor, oftentimes it can come back in later and do the same things again. And because it is ALWAYS paired with hazards (or setting hazards itself), as well as spinblockers like Sinistcha or spincheckers like the birds, it’ll chip down its checks gradually if its teammates can keep their guard up.
It’s pretty well known by now that the best Gliscor checks are Ogerpon-Wellspring and Kyurem. What do you notice about these two Pokémon? Well, Woger can’t wear Boots, and Kyurem doesn’t want to (he says they’re uncomfortable (also Boots Kyurem isn’t that good anymore)). This means that they’re prone to getting chipped down over the length of the game, which will always be extended if a Gliscor is present. I don’t know about you, but typically Gliscor is one of the last mons to die when I face it, and usually only because its teammates are on low HP and need a free switch-in.
In conclusion, I believe that Gliscor is banworthy due to being able to outlast and chip down its checks, as well as being able to catch opponents off guard with its surprising amount of set variety and ability to Terastallize to flip its counterplay. These qualities cause excessive strain in the teambuilder, and when accounting for all of the other threats in the tier, it becomes exceedingly difficult to include sufficient counterplay across the range of different playstyles.
When building fatter structures, Gliscor is a major buildercheck. Even if you have checks on your team, there is a chance that Gliscor will Terastallize into a type that flips your checks into checked. Checkmate. The Terastallization issue is also exacerbated by the fact that taking down a Gliscor often requires either boosted or supereffective hits, which it can just tera away from. Sound familiar? (
?) Gliscor, as well as all the other threats in the tier, make it hard to build fatter structures that can accommodate for all the breakers. If you only have one Gliscor answer, it can just tera and you lose. If you have several, there’s a good chance they’ll be chipped and outlasted over the course of the game via hazards, toxic, and attacks not just from Gliscor but from its teammates too. Oftentimes, playing against Gliscor can feel like a 6-7.There is also the matter of set variation. There are defensive sets which set hazards and click Toxic, and offensive sets which click Swords Dance. Within the subcategories, there is also set variation. Checks/counters to the standard EQ Toxic set suddenly lose to Poison Jab/Knock variants (
, Tera Fly Taunt ). Swords Dance sets have variation, too. There’s EQ/Facade walled by Sinistcha, but Knock/Facade wins that 1v1. Kingambit can beat Knock/Facade, but loses to EQ variants. You could scout, but in doing so Gliscor could get another SD off or get big hits off on your mons.Even if you scare out a Gliscor, oftentimes it can come back in later and do the same things again. And because it is ALWAYS paired with hazards (or setting hazards itself), as well as spinblockers like Sinistcha or spincheckers like the birds, it’ll chip down its checks gradually if its teammates can keep their guard up.
It’s pretty well known by now that the best Gliscor checks are Ogerpon-Wellspring and Kyurem. What do you notice about these two Pokémon? Well, Woger can’t wear Boots, and Kyurem doesn’t want to (he says they’re uncomfortable (also Boots Kyurem isn’t that good anymore)). This means that they’re prone to getting chipped down over the length of the game, which will always be extended if a Gliscor is present. I don’t know about you, but typically Gliscor is one of the last mons to die when I face it, and usually only because its teammates are on low HP and need a free switch-in.
In conclusion, I believe that Gliscor is banworthy due to being able to outlast and chip down its checks, as well as being able to catch opponents off guard with its surprising amount of set variety and ability to Terastallize to flip its counterplay. These qualities cause excessive strain in the teambuilder, and when accounting for all of the other threats in the tier, it becomes exceedingly difficult to include sufficient counterplay across the range of different playstyles.
Can we expect to see posts from you here, Finchinator? Or will you exclusively post in the Qualified section?
Both! Just been catching up on life and sleep the last few days.
Gliscor probably shouldn't be banned since the sd sets, which this post mostly talked about, are easily checked kept in check by HO oriented teams and even v balance teams, the spike stack set tends to be better due to how strong hazards are against them. The SD sets are worse into stall than the spike stack sets since stall has a lot of issues with hazards once u knock off the boots. I honestly think the stealth rock/spikes set is the much stronger set for gliscor atm, so banning it for the reasoning of the sd set feels a bit weak. But I will probably still end up voting ban since I don't like vsing it and banning it will make stall pretty unviable. Stall is carried hard by gliscor atm, nothing else can really fill the same role as it since ting lu and tank chomp don't get knock. But I do think gliscor its a balanced mon, just not fun to vs.
Even if Gliscor can be....incredibly annoying, i do not really think it should be banned, gliscor can be very predictable and can be played around with some will-o-wisp or knock-offing, sure that is also based on prediction and luck, it can still ruin the gliscor trainer, some good counters like durable prankster or magic guard users or relieble knock-offers like weavile, donphan or meowscarada (that can also attack with ice moves), hell even clefable can work its way around gliscor, more than enough to deal with it
even if i dont use gliscor, i do not really think it should be banned
even if i dont use gliscor, i do not really think it should be banned
no good Gliscor player is ever letting it get wisped or knocked. donphan…?
By Donphan, he means the Paradox forms, Great Tusk and Iron Treads. If you're going to make a one-liner, maybe you should not bother to post until you have something more constructive to say.
I agree with Eeveeto that SD Gliscor has plenty of counterplay. There is enough counterplay to SD Gliscor with the mons not bothered by it whatever coverage it decides to run and powerful HO breakers, and SD Gliscor itself shits on Spikes Gliscor, which lowers the prevalence of Spikes and Toxic Gliscor. The Spikes set is probably the hardest set to face for fatter teams due to how poor removal is in general and Knock Off removing HDB, which is the main way of playing around hazards.
TMTito already mentioned mons that are good into Gliscor for fatter teams, such as Corviknight and Dondozo, and also depending on the situation, Iron Defense Garganacl (if committing to Tera), Iron Defense Zamazenta, and Unaware Clefable. He also indicated that a lot of common attackers have moves that hit Gliscor for supereffective damage, including Great Tusk, Dragonite, Ogerpon-Wellspring, Samurott-Hisui, Kyurem, Darkrai, Iron Treads, and Primarina. Other mons that can do serious damage to Gliscor pre-Tera include Meowscarda, Deoxys-Speed, Meteor Beam Glimmora, Walking Wake, and Choice Band Rillaboom. Set-up sweepers with Substitute are also huge threats to Spikes Gliscor. However, none of these mons that actually threaten Gliscor have much longevity, and Gliscor is very resilient due to Poison Heal and not being hit by Spikes.
Personally, I don't find Gliscor broken, but I can see why people believe that getting rid of it would free up building. I would have personally targeted something else before Gliscor as I don't believe it's the most pressing issue, but I can see the appeal of getting rid of a very centralizing threat as teams that can't handle Gliscor due to passivity tend to be unviable. However, that isn't unique to Gliscor, and there are already many mons that punish passive play patterns, such as Kingambit, Gholdengo, Roaring Moon, Ogerpon-Wellspring, Samurott-Hisui, Kyurem, Darkrai, Primarina, Alomomola, and Walking Wake. Is what Gliscor does really that egregious to warrant getting banned? I'm not sure, and I personally lean towards no.
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You're missing the point, though. All of those mons sans Alomomola (who is, if not outright problematic, incredibly frustrating to play against regardless of team structure) and MAYBE Leftovers Kingambit have very little longevity compared to Gliscor. If we banned Pokemon based on how much they punished passivity, all of the Pokemon that you listed would be banned. Gliscor punishing passivity is clearly not the issue here, and Gliscor bolsters passive teams just as much, if not more than it punishes them (it’s a staple of stall teams for a reason).
[Suspect Test Mon] has multiple distinct sets that require different counterplay, guessing wrong can be extremely punishing, and all styles except HO and full stall can potentially run multiple sets. Due to high natural bulk, the mon is difficult to take down without supereffective moves, and thus runs defensive tera types as often as offensive ones, though there is a defensive utility in its offensive choices. Also, the setup version has different walls depending on its coverage moves, and any set can run niche options to defeat specific counters.
Am I talking about Kyurem or Gliscor?
Swords Dance Gliscor can exploit a misprediction with a free setup opportunity and proceed to do wallbreaker things, but the difference with other breaks is that Gliscor has almost no opportunity cost for mispredicting the defensive switch. It isn't choice locked, doesn't expend a Booster Energy, takes little to no hazard damage, and can scout with Protect while healing up any chip that has been taken. In the worst case, you click a +2 Knock Off and make progress - either a nice chunk of damage, or at least a BE being expended.
The punishment for the opponent switching in an answer to the SD set? An activated Toxic Orb (if it wasn't already), a bit of healing while clicking Protect to scout, or possibly just using Gliscor's bulk to trade damage, knowing that Poison Heal provides the potential to outlast the check.
It's that ability to get away with being wrong, having very few mons that can severely punish a misplay without trading its ability to exploit opposing misplays, that makes Gliscor stand out.
Does that make it banworthy? Eh. I'm not going to be a voter, so I'm not going to make a call there. I just want to point out how it's a very unique, one-of-a-kind threat.
Am I talking about Kyurem or Gliscor?
Swords Dance Gliscor can exploit a misprediction with a free setup opportunity and proceed to do wallbreaker things, but the difference with other breaks is that Gliscor has almost no opportunity cost for mispredicting the defensive switch. It isn't choice locked, doesn't expend a Booster Energy, takes little to no hazard damage, and can scout with Protect while healing up any chip that has been taken. In the worst case, you click a +2 Knock Off and make progress - either a nice chunk of damage, or at least a BE being expended.
The punishment for the opponent switching in an answer to the SD set? An activated Toxic Orb (if it wasn't already), a bit of healing while clicking Protect to scout, or possibly just using Gliscor's bulk to trade damage, knowing that Poison Heal provides the potential to outlast the check.
It's that ability to get away with being wrong, having very few mons that can severely punish a misplay without trading its ability to exploit opposing misplays, that makes Gliscor stand out.
Does that make it banworthy? Eh. I'm not going to be a voter, so I'm not going to make a call there. I just want to point out how it's a very unique, one-of-a-kind threat.
I don't entirely agree with some of these points. The way you deal with Gliscor is not all that different between archetypes. Generally it presents the same immediate threats regardless, i.e. Knock Off, and the damage that SD will do isn't that high. I don't think predictability is an issue, especially when Gliscor mostly has 2 free move slots in any given situation. The punishment for getting a turn wrong is not very punishing excepting Tera.
Furthermore, it's fairly easy to tell when a Gliscor is Spikes or SD, based on team structure. On builds with other setters like Tinkaton or Ting-Lu, it's SD. If it's on Webs HO, it's SD. If it's the only hazard setter, probably it's Spikes. If it's on stall, it's probably Spikes. Without the threat of Spikes, the pressure of SD Gliscor is not nearly as dangerous. Even if you aren't sure, I think it's not so bad.
I generally agree with your other points. I believe that on HO, stall, and offense, Gliscor is tolerable. For Balance teams, I'm erring on the side of it being unhealthy, but don't know if that warrants banning yet.
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I don't see why we should be catering towards a HO metagame when balance/BO teams are usually higher skilled and have less MU-variance (sign of a healthy metagame). Gliscor makes balance v balance feel like gliscor v gliscor, since balance struggles to handle scor without using their own scor. SD scor dittos become whoever wins the speedtie usually wins the game: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2236455715
There are dedicated SD scor "checks", like steel birds, but mons like u-turn corv still lose to the gliscor in the long term through knock + rocks, and you don't have many opportunities as the corv player to get your roosts off, which opens up the game way too easily imo. Even woger and kyu can be beaten by tera normal, which is a low risk high reward play because of how weak balance can be to these 2. You already have so many mons to deal with in the builder, like gambit, moth, moon etc. that are usually dealt with a defensive core, but gliscor is unique since it requires very specific counterplay that forces balances into very generic and not-interesting structures. Sometimes it feels like an unkillable mon that you have to switch into an infinite amount of times per game; even if knock or facade does 10% on your mon scor teams are optimized to let gliscor in as many times as possible. Gliscor is very much a team player, sure you can threaten it out with u-turn corv into kyurem but kyurem can't beat your resttalk lu if it's subtect, and gets scouted with protect if it's specs.
Other checks like pecharunt, gambit, waters/grasses are usually prone to spikes that scor can be paired with, but balance teams can easily outlast these short-term checks with a good defensive core (which scor also facilitates). That's not to mention protect 50/50s that frequently happen in gliscor games which just adds to how difficult it is to beat. Sub is also nasty and usually does really well into offenses (an archetype that's good into SD). Also some people say you can tell if the gliscor is SD or hazards from team preview but this isn't necessarly true, max speed SD scor is great at securing trades so that can be slapped on anything, from stall to offensively-leaning BO teams.
Rn im leaning on voting ban, but I could definitely change my mind since scor is invaluable defensively for mons like bolt and mixed val, and u-turn scor is also very cool.
There are dedicated SD scor "checks", like steel birds, but mons like u-turn corv still lose to the gliscor in the long term through knock + rocks, and you don't have many opportunities as the corv player to get your roosts off, which opens up the game way too easily imo. Even woger and kyu can be beaten by tera normal, which is a low risk high reward play because of how weak balance can be to these 2. You already have so many mons to deal with in the builder, like gambit, moth, moon etc. that are usually dealt with a defensive core, but gliscor is unique since it requires very specific counterplay that forces balances into very generic and not-interesting structures. Sometimes it feels like an unkillable mon that you have to switch into an infinite amount of times per game; even if knock or facade does 10% on your mon scor teams are optimized to let gliscor in as many times as possible. Gliscor is very much a team player, sure you can threaten it out with u-turn corv into kyurem but kyurem can't beat your resttalk lu if it's subtect, and gets scouted with protect if it's specs.
Other checks like pecharunt, gambit, waters/grasses are usually prone to spikes that scor can be paired with, but balance teams can easily outlast these short-term checks with a good defensive core (which scor also facilitates). That's not to mention protect 50/50s that frequently happen in gliscor games which just adds to how difficult it is to beat. Sub is also nasty and usually does really well into offenses (an archetype that's good into SD). Also some people say you can tell if the gliscor is SD or hazards from team preview but this isn't necessarly true, max speed SD scor is great at securing trades so that can be slapped on anything, from stall to offensively-leaning BO teams.
Rn im leaning on voting ban, but I could definitely change my mind since scor is invaluable defensively for mons like bolt and mixed val, and u-turn scor is also very cool.
I lean do not ban right now, but I am not fully decided and, above all, view this suspect as a case study in how to evaluate different kinds of teambuilding restrictions and weighing how good “too good” something could be in certain situations. You cannot treat Gliscor like some of the powercrept breakers we have previously suspected and trying to do that is just doing yourself a disservice.
To start, this Gliscor suspect now is totally different than the initial suspect. Previously, the SD set was good, but the combination of Spikes and utility proved overwhelming. Currently, the SD set is the centerpiece in any arguments to ban it while utility sets are taking a (slight) backseat.
The aforementioned Spikes variants of Gliscor are by no means bad — they are just exploitable. If you run Spikes, then you always have a (large) handful of passive match-ups.
I actually really like utility Gliscor without Spikes — using EQ / Toxic / Protect / U-turn while keeping it slow, allowing me to cycle in threats while keeping Gliscor healthy with normal pivots and Protect, but this variant is not broken either so much as just practical and generally good. I used it twice in SCL and loved my teams with it, but I wouldn’t put it in the bucket of broken or discuss it much more in the suspect thread.
Pivoting to the focus: SD Gliscor is the bread-and-butter of this discussion. We see a ton of now-standard SD / Facade / Knock / Protect, but classic sets that still opt for STAB EQ work as well. EQ + Facade sucks into Balloon Gholdengo and loses the ability to force a Knock Off into bulky teams, EQ + Knock struggles to do enough quickly into anything that isn’t grounded, and EQ + Ice Fang doesn’t see enough usage (but is supremely underrated IMO — would recommend trying it out to aspiring Gliscor users).
I think offense is ok enough into SD Gliscor. You have many means of pressuring it, a handful of common Ice moves, plenty of circumstantial Tera options, some ways to disrupt it like Trick or timely Encore, and even a lot of Pokemon that outright beat it and can switch in once or twice.
Stuff like Ogerpon-Wellspring, Ice Spinner Dragonite, Ice Spinner Tusk, Ice Fang AoA Zama, Ice Beam Darkrai, SD Ice Punch/Liquidation Valiant, Kyurem, Ice Beam Deoxys-Speed, Samurott-H, Weavile, Walking Wake, Manaphy, and Ninetales-Alola all can comfortably 1v1 Gliscor, most can switch in at least once, and only lose if Gliscor uses Tera. If Gliscor uses Tera, then you almost certainly have something faster to take it out — suddenly Zama and Valiant have STAB Fighting to neutralize Normal Gliscor, for example. Dragon and Water Scor have multiple weaknesses, too. Is it always easy or linear? No, but I also do not think SD Gliscor is disproportionately problematic for offense or even close to the top of the teambuilding check list for these aggressive builds. It’s really the balance and bulkier team match-ups we are looking at here.
SD Gliscor into balance can be hell. You have a Pokemon immune to Spikes that soaks up any status, can switch into Knock Off after Toxic Orb is activated, and negates SR damage with Poison Heal while recovering twice as much as Leftovers. This is all done while having superb physical bulk and multiple common immunities — it should go without saying that SD Gliscor is the nightmare of a balance or bulky team.
There are ways around it, however. We have seen more slower pivots that aim to tank a bit and pivot in something that can RK Gliscor. Stuff like slowturn Corviknight, your own U-turn Gliscor, and Alomomola do a nice job here and can at least cycle through a handful of times. Other Pokemon like Moltres, slow Landorus-T, and even Slither Wing can do the dance as well, but in a much more restricted fashion due to inability to tank a Knock Off or lack of longevity in the match up. Pair these with Pokemon that can take out Gliscor — Kyurem, Weavile, Spinner Tusk, Spinner Nite, Beam Boots Rai, Beam Deoxys-S, Wellspring, etc. — all of these can be used as faster weapons on balance or BO. These type of cores are at least safe into Gliscor a few times over. Truthfully, you also need to limit free entry of Gliscor and if you don’t run a pivot, then your offensive Pokemon like Kyurem or Great Tusk can easily be outlasted by Gliscor over time. It’s a lot and I definitely think SD Gliscor is the most restrictive Pokemon to these teams aside from maybe Ogerpon-Wellspring.
I am not sure if what’s present in the metagame is enough for Gliscor to be contained on balance without seeing the same structures spammed repeatedly, but it’d a lot more nuanced than simple lists of checks/counters given the longevity of counterplay relative to that of Gliscor. For now, I am leaning against banning it as there are tools, but as writing out this post it did strike me how flimsy some of the tools into it can be while Gliscor has a field day over longer games, so perhaps deeper reflection is needed to be sure. More later from me perhaps.
To start, this Gliscor suspect now is totally different than the initial suspect. Previously, the SD set was good, but the combination of Spikes and utility proved overwhelming. Currently, the SD set is the centerpiece in any arguments to ban it while utility sets are taking a (slight) backseat.
The aforementioned Spikes variants of Gliscor are by no means bad — they are just exploitable. If you run Spikes, then you always have a (large) handful of passive match-ups.
- Most of the time you drop U-Turn, making you a sitting duck against opposing SD Gliscor as well as Corviknight, Skarmory, etc. — letting up free turns to SD Gliscor mandates very specific team compositions for any balance/stall, restricting you a ton. Many other Pokemon can withstand hits and grab multiple turns to set-up or attack as well
- If you cannot fit Toxic, then Great Tusk can Rapid Spin a lot longer while Dragonite, ID Zamazenta, Ogerpon-Wellspring, Enamorus, and Hydrapple have much better entry and overall match-up. You also cannot really kill things you would normally check like Zapdos and Moltres, complicating long-term ripples against them
- If you cannot fit Knock Off, you get greatly diminished returns on your own Spikes, mandate another (ideally durable) Knock Off user on your team, and bulky teams have a much easier time switching in, which defeats a large pressure point Gliscor normally provides
- And if you drop EQ, then you’re suddenly set-up fodder for Gholdengo, Kingambit, Raging Bolt, Iron Crown, and others
I actually really like utility Gliscor without Spikes — using EQ / Toxic / Protect / U-turn while keeping it slow, allowing me to cycle in threats while keeping Gliscor healthy with normal pivots and Protect, but this variant is not broken either so much as just practical and generally good. I used it twice in SCL and loved my teams with it, but I wouldn’t put it in the bucket of broken or discuss it much more in the suspect thread.
Pivoting to the focus: SD Gliscor is the bread-and-butter of this discussion. We see a ton of now-standard SD / Facade / Knock / Protect, but classic sets that still opt for STAB EQ work as well. EQ + Facade sucks into Balloon Gholdengo and loses the ability to force a Knock Off into bulky teams, EQ + Knock struggles to do enough quickly into anything that isn’t grounded, and EQ + Ice Fang doesn’t see enough usage (but is supremely underrated IMO — would recommend trying it out to aspiring Gliscor users).
I think offense is ok enough into SD Gliscor. You have many means of pressuring it, a handful of common Ice moves, plenty of circumstantial Tera options, some ways to disrupt it like Trick or timely Encore, and even a lot of Pokemon that outright beat it and can switch in once or twice.
Stuff like Ogerpon-Wellspring, Ice Spinner Dragonite, Ice Spinner Tusk, Ice Fang AoA Zama, Ice Beam Darkrai, SD Ice Punch/Liquidation Valiant, Kyurem, Ice Beam Deoxys-Speed, Samurott-H, Weavile, Walking Wake, Manaphy, and Ninetales-Alola all can comfortably 1v1 Gliscor, most can switch in at least once, and only lose if Gliscor uses Tera. If Gliscor uses Tera, then you almost certainly have something faster to take it out — suddenly Zama and Valiant have STAB Fighting to neutralize Normal Gliscor, for example. Dragon and Water Scor have multiple weaknesses, too. Is it always easy or linear? No, but I also do not think SD Gliscor is disproportionately problematic for offense or even close to the top of the teambuilding check list for these aggressive builds. It’s really the balance and bulkier team match-ups we are looking at here.
SD Gliscor into balance can be hell. You have a Pokemon immune to Spikes that soaks up any status, can switch into Knock Off after Toxic Orb is activated, and negates SR damage with Poison Heal while recovering twice as much as Leftovers. This is all done while having superb physical bulk and multiple common immunities — it should go without saying that SD Gliscor is the nightmare of a balance or bulky team.
There are ways around it, however. We have seen more slower pivots that aim to tank a bit and pivot in something that can RK Gliscor. Stuff like slowturn Corviknight, your own U-turn Gliscor, and Alomomola do a nice job here and can at least cycle through a handful of times. Other Pokemon like Moltres, slow Landorus-T, and even Slither Wing can do the dance as well, but in a much more restricted fashion due to inability to tank a Knock Off or lack of longevity in the match up. Pair these with Pokemon that can take out Gliscor — Kyurem, Weavile, Spinner Tusk, Spinner Nite, Beam Boots Rai, Beam Deoxys-S, Wellspring, etc. — all of these can be used as faster weapons on balance or BO. These type of cores are at least safe into Gliscor a few times over. Truthfully, you also need to limit free entry of Gliscor and if you don’t run a pivot, then your offensive Pokemon like Kyurem or Great Tusk can easily be outlasted by Gliscor over time. It’s a lot and I definitely think SD Gliscor is the most restrictive Pokemon to these teams aside from maybe Ogerpon-Wellspring.
I am not sure if what’s present in the metagame is enough for Gliscor to be contained on balance without seeing the same structures spammed repeatedly, but it’d a lot more nuanced than simple lists of checks/counters given the longevity of counterplay relative to that of Gliscor. For now, I am leaning against banning it as there are tools, but as writing out this post it did strike me how flimsy some of the tools into it can be while Gliscor has a field day over longer games, so perhaps deeper reflection is needed to be sure. More later from me perhaps.
Generalizations like this are really off-base. Offense mirrors are some of the best games and throwing them all into the bucket of variance misses a huge chunk of this (or many, many other) metagame(s). The goal is for every archetype to be usable in any balance metagame after all.
I should've specified that I was talking about HO being extremely common in gen9 rn and how that's a sign of a bad meta, but also SD scor, amongst other mons (like kyurem which shouldve gone) limit the teambuilding, specifically for balance/BO, very limited. Yes there are structures that work really well, eg blim balance, but gen 9 rn feels like a lot of stuff is broken and you're playing at a disadvantage if u don't use it. SD scor (and kyurem imo) has limited counterplay and is also overcentralising as a balance progressmaker, especially considering you kinda (albeit not as much) need to build around gliscor's other sets.
I agree that offense mirrors r goated btw, but gen 9 with gliscor makes balance mirrors very awkward.
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