np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 16 - Zero To Hero

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jiro7 said:
You can EV for speed boost in Sun, with Specs and Tera Water and 2hko most of the tier.

So pretty similar to Palafin with wave crash except that you take huge recoil in exchange for a bit more damage. And ofc, Wake is way faster

And just like Palafin can predict CC Ogerpon, Wake can Draco aswell.

(Also, Wake usually forces defensive teras more often than Palafin. Usually on mons like Glowking since Azumarill isn't real anymore and Primarina isn't that common. Mons like Dondozo or Mola are more common and don't need to tera - Source, I pretty much spam sun/rain only)
Click to expand...
I think a big thing youre missing is that plenty in the tier is still faster than walking wake. Val, scarf rai, moth, wellspring after a tblaze boost, etc. Not to mention its vulnerable to priority like gambut sucker. This isnt the case for a mon that has such strong priority of its own. I dont think its fair to make the comparison between wake and palafin.
 
Stories said:
Palafin doesn’t feel blatantly broken to me, but it feels like one of those borderline mons like Kyurem, Gliscor, or Waterpon where they’re broken enough to be super annoying. Due to this Palafin just adds to the congestion of the tier and really just contributes to the problem rather than helping, which defeats the purpose of unbanning it anyway. just keep it banned imo
Click to expand...
Yeah as a threat, I feel like it is on par with a mon like SD scor. There was one really nice replay of a game I played recently that I feel that demonstrated this well.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2272947162-str4gpgh5vz1pkdu0uchdmm4rsn7hxepw

I feel like the game devolved into whether either SD scor or Palafin got in and which one could begin owning first. Also kinda shows how useful even a Palafin at 2% can be. That said it is fascinating how a former Uber is matching an existing OU mon in terms of game dominance.

Personally I might trade this mon for Kyurem since I think it adds more to the tier with its strong priority, making it more useful for the average builder as speed control. Kyurem I feel is way more inconsistent and difficult to incorporate onto a build in comparison. That said, the chips aren't looking too favorable for our dolphin friend.

If nothing else, pivot Quaquaval ended up being less of a meme than I thought. Might use it more after the suspect ends.
 
Last edited:
ausma said:
Ultimately, I believe one's verdict of Palafin is going to be extremely dependent on how you perceive tiering philosophy and what you value in the structure of the tier. If you value viability balance across the spectrum of archetypes, then Palafin does not help that and actually worsens it. If you dislike how its several viable sets have unique relationships with different archetypes to a debilitating extent, then Palafin very much is not worth having. But, if you value letting Pokemon be available if they're able to be overall handled or are feasible to make some kind of a gameplan against, then Palafin is fine.
Click to expand...

Really and truly, I think the suspect will come down to exactly what ausma said here. These are the two big philosophies on how tiering policy and unbanning Ubers; whether you think it has a place in OU or whether it is simply not broken in OU and can be handled and I think it's hard to convince one side of tiering policy to come over to the other side. Most people think it's simply "pretty good" in terms of outright brokenness - which if you subscribe to the latter policy, means it could probably stay in OU. However most people on the Ban side simply think it's just adding to the pool of dumb offensive threats in OU and has nothing to "add" to the tier - which I guess is correct, but I don't think that should be the reason for it to stay gone. I just think that if it's able to be handled in OU then it can stick around, simple as.

Srn said:
I want to again remind you of the relevant tidbit in the tiering policy framework:
  • If a proposal is made to ban or unban a Pokemon, ability, item, or move, the side suggesting this must demonstrate why this is necessary and how it affects the ladder and the tournament scene, as well as provide evidence for both.

Palafin is both an unnecessary addition to the tier and serves only to make dominant BO teams stronger and struggling HO teams worse, which will only make the meta more stale and affect the ladder scene negatively. We need to have more consistent and good playstyles than BO.

The onus is on the DNB crowd to provide evidence to the contrary and show how palafin is both necessary to the tier and improves the meta. Until I see it, I will be voting to KEEP PALAFIN BANNED and I would encourage readers to do the same.
Click to expand...

However, in terms of this exact wording of the tiering policy, I think Palafin has no business being OU because realistically it doesn't add anything to the meta and isn't necessary at all lmao
 
Palafin probably isn’t broken (but even that’s debatable) but we probably shouldn’t unban it. It shouldn’t just be about if Palafin is broken, think about what will happen if Palafin is unbanned. Will it be a positive presence in the tier? Probably not, since it struggles to really check anything defensively outside of Jet Punch, which is resisted by a lot of the setup sweepers in the tier and is probably just outclassed by Lokix in terms of keeping offence in check. Well does it make the tier worse? Probably. It is going to become yet another threat that you have to account for in the builder, and while there is counter play it can be set dependent, and there is probably a Palafin set for every team depending on item coverage and Tera type. Palafin’s checks are pretty much all threatened by a specific coverage move or set and while it might be nice to say that you can just scout, how are you supposed to? Say a CB Palafin’s on the field, and you have a Sinistcha. There is always going to be a chance when you switch Sinistcha in that you will get blown up by Ice Punch. So what do you do? Do you not switch in the Sinistcha and let something else take a possible CB Wavecrash or Flip Turn? And even if they don’t have Ice Punch, you still have to switch in the Sinistcha and give free momentum with Flip Turn. And for the people saying that Palafin’s CB sets will kill themselves with recoil, yes it will die, but it will be paired with teammates that are there specifically to benefit from Palafin’s wall breaking, so the recoil doesn’t matter as much. For example, if you take out a Lando-T, Raging Bolt gets opened up. Take out Sinistcha, abuse Zama. Kill Dondozo, abuse setup sweepers. etc. etc. All of this and I haven’t even mentioned the fact that Palafin makes already dominant Pokemon like Waterpon even better and beats down archetypes that are not exactly favored rn like Balance.

TLDR Palafin probably isn’t broken but since it isn’t really contributing too much positively into the tier and brings a lot of negatives it makes no sense to drop it into OU imo

JunkoAJ said:
Really and truly, I think the suspect will come down to exactly what ausma said here. These are the two big philosophies on how tiering policy and unbanning Ubers; whether you think it has a place in OU or whether it is simply not broken in OU and can be handled and I think it's hard to convince one side of tiering policy to come over to the other side. Most people think it's simply "pretty good" in terms of outright brokenness - which if you subscribe to the latter policy, means it could probably stay in OU. However most people on the Ban side simply think it's just adding to the pool of dumb offensive threats in OU and has nothing to "add" to the tier - which I guess is correct, but I don't think that should be the reason for it to stay gone. I just think that if it's able to be handled in OU then it can stick around, simple as.
Click to expand...
Just because it's manageable doesn't mean it has a bad presence in the tier. Why should we be adding offensive threats that contribute negatively to the tier at all? If we really want a better tier, we should keep Palafin out of it.
 
Last edited:
Haven’t gotten reqs cause I’ve been busy with other projects, but I can chime in to give my thoughts on Palafin.

:sv/palafin_hero:

Pala has three sets, but the one I wanna focus on is the CB set. Palafin isn’t broken since there is notable counterplay in the form of Wogre, Raging Bolt, Dnite, and Mola.

However

The meta the CB set creates is very stale and unhealthy. Switching into Palafin is a non-issue til you realize your check now took 20% from Flip Turn and they just brought in Subtect Kyurem or Specs Raging Bolt. What differentiates it from other pivots like Dragapult, Cinderace, and Lando is the fact that punishing it for clicking Flip Turn is risky. Moltres and Helmet Lando die to Flip Turn. Pressuring it with hazards is difficult since its paired with good spinners/Defoggers like Tusk, SpD Treads, or Corv. Zapdos could punish Flip Turn spam, but it’s taking over 30% from Flip Turn and inviting in broken ass Kyurem. Our only options for punishing Palafin is RH Mola (good luck keeping Helmet intact) and Water Absorb mons (i.e Wogre).

I’d argue it also trivializes fighting HO. All priority in SV OU have their achilles’ heel. E-Speed is blocked by the common Tera Ghost. Sucker Punch can be played around via 50/50s. Thunderclap has the same issue and can be Tera Ground’d on. Grassy Glide has a ton of resistances. Options like Samu’s Aqua Jet are pretty weak, and even Lokix’s Banded First Impression has the issue of sapping momentum away from the user.

But Jet Punch is a no drawback, strong priority move coming off its 160 Atk. With Tera, it’s picking off a majority of the offensive metagame, doing nearly half to Bulky Kingambit. The things Palafin can’t simply drop with Jet Punch, are dispatched by its teammates, such as Moltres. Thanks to Palafin, checking Tera Fire sweepers like Gambit and Encore Dnite becomes much easier.

Palafin is also good into BO since it can snipe the faster mons with Jet Punch and most BO staples cannot check it consistently without Ogerpon (and hope it doesn’t click CC on the switch).

HO has already been underperforming lately as expressed by SupaGmoney in the qualified thread and Palafin further enforces that.

90% of the teams I’ve run into have just been Palafin Voltturn Balances. Its the most optimal way to run Band Pala, and it’s also the most braindead way to ladder in OU rn. Because again, Palafin is getting so much value by just clicking Flip Turn and there is minimal risk for doing so. It restricts Offense and it restricts other Balances by also being difficult to switch into.

So if you feel like the kind of meta Palafin enforces is lame or polarizing, vote Ban if you can get reqs.
 
Last edited:
samohi0 said:
252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Mew: 441-519 (109.1 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Mew: 456-538 (112.8 - 133.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

it was proven before that when the best switch in for a mon is an immunity the mon is broken and that was in a generation without tera. Palafin is constricting on teambuilding and is not consistently beatable with any Pokemon not even ogerpon which gets ohkod by cc. and besides that I don't see what positive it has on the tier
Click to expand...
Responding here because I didn't make Qualified, but I do take some umbrage with this comparison, first and foremost being that Dracovish retains most of that nuclear power with less resources needed into its damage (no Recoil, Tera-Water is a resource taken from another team member, Jolly vs Adamant here, Turn 1 power), so it has to be noted that right off the bat, Palafin doesn't have the threat of throwing this out for free until at minimum the second time you see it. Combined with the much increased prominence of Hazards, Palafin is liable to faint itself compared to Vish if played with the same recklessness. If Palafin's unbalanced, there's more at work than a big calc because I could also play this

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Mew in Grassy Terrain: 370-436 (91.5 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Mew in Grassy Terrain: 494-582 (122.2 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The context behind hitting those numbers matters a lot to the mon's effect on the tier.
 
The ladder period for Palafin's retest has concluded. You may now cast your vote here if you qualified!

!!!PLEASE NOTE!!! The options are Unban Palafin and Do Not Unban Palafin -- read and select carefully as it is not the conventional "Ban" and "Do not ban" options from a normal suspect test.

Thank you to all of the following users for participating in our process and I will now be closing the discussion threads. Consider this your reminder and request to vote. PM me with questions -- thanks.

Goobing Fire
Poke fan
GCGoat
Cicada
Star
mintwinter
DSC_6387
Karmazz
TheTT6
Fusien
Pampey
Lacks
georgiethefirst
Its all RNG
Hiko
polisci
Alhen
KittenLasers
TPH
Satanic Beast
finnpetersen
Moisture99
Mister McLovin
freezai
Finchinator
Mimikyu Stardust
Zarross
3d
StarChewer
Zapsuki
Yoink 0
Sir Dankalot
Potayo
DripLegend
Venuesaur
befi
qways
xavgb
clean
GJLimeade
Eight Five
just_jakob
Carl The Turtle
ihbst
RuanTheBuilder
uHatyy
Cape Canaveral
aim
UUTS
prav33n
ShizuOsaka
samohi0
clerica
epic4eternity
Patatexv
glass shadows
CaptainKing06
Quackborg
Tio Chico
Cow
3terna1 B1iss
flyingtaco
bhkg
lab addict
sire clod
Ewin
heileone
Jokler
Fc
NoName6293
N-tel
senorlopez
vk
GeniusX
Down$hift
colorednaem
zioziotrip
crucify
Demon Queen
Kaneki-san
SetsuSetsuna
Kayzn
Duke of Fortress
Tace
Professor Suicune
Storm Zone
The412Gang
Flinchkiss
MAVERICK SHOOTERS
procorphish
InteleonStan
Nemosse
Thiago Nunes
dreevee7
Skip The Drip
S1nn0hC0nfirm3d
Stareal
hellom
CaptainSC
Magcargo
a jellyfish
Roller K
TMTito
SupaGmoney
Tenebricite
Srn
MemphisDepay
Antho17###
Unstoppable1
waffle04
JackRG
Blimax
Dhrabb
CrispyFries
Pais
Ishtar0607
Eeveeto
Dugtrio Is Broken
Potatochan
Fleance
Duckular
fish anemometer
Light DN
Joltinjoe
Attribute
Moyashi
Lily
lax
LudwigFrog
Sanesa8724
Silent Waltz
We Three Kings
Albret
zS
Piyu
 
From here:

32 users who have earned voting requisites have not voted yet, but their votes will not affect the outcome of the vote.

Eligible Voters: 135
Votes: 103

:Palafin: Palafin :Palafin-Hero:
Unban: 25
Do Not Unban: 78
Unban %: 24.27%

It is now impossible for Palafin to be unbanned regardless of the remaining 32 voters. 50%+1 pro-unban majority is required for an unban, and the outcome will not be reached by more votes. 76% of votes thus far are in favor of Palafin remaining Uber, leading us to this verdict.

Thus, Palafin remains banned from SV OU. Tagging Marty and dhelmise to make the change on PS when they have the time; thanks!

Thank you to all who have voted. The vote will remain open for the remainder of the weekend (GMT-5) to allow the remaining people with voting requirements to vote here and have their vote count towards the Tiering Contributor badge if they so please. I will close voting at this time.

Votes will be made public at the formal deadline or whenever all 135 voters have voted, whichever comes first. We will likely change language for restest to either make it "Palafin OU" / "Palafin Uber" or add parentheis for people who do not speak English as a first language for future retests. It is understandable that "Unban" and "Do Not Unban" is not as linear as the typical "Ban" and "Do Not Ban" from a normal suspect test after all. While I provided a disclaimer in my first post when I tagged voters here, a few people wanted further clarification and Smogon should always be easily accessible for everyone regardless of their language background. I really appreciate community feedback on this!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top