np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Munch

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apoteosis said:
I just got the reqs yesterday with a psy spam team.

Believe me, pao is single-handedly keeping the archetype in check.

So, unless we do want a flood of cheesy builds and a swarm of boring balance teams, keep pao in the tier.
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the meta is already filled with boring Tusk/Ghold/Pex/Garg teams, what are you saying?

Also take a shot everytime someone in a suspect thread says “If you ban X, then Y will make the tier boring and stale”

Seriously tho, can we retire this argument? Its used in every suspect ever and has been proven wrong since the DPP Mence ban
 
M
apoteosis said:
I just got the reqs yesterday with a psy spam team.

Believe me, pao is single-handedly keeping the archetype in check.

So, unless we do want a flood of cheesy builds and a swarm of boring balance teams, keep pao in the tier.
Click to expand...

Personally, I think that if the best argument you can come up with is that the suspected mon is the only thing between us and some unfun meta that it apparently singlehandedly is keeping unviable, you should probably think a little more about this. If you have reqs, you can vote however you want and you don't need to listen to me, but you should probably remember that new suspect tests can be held after a potential Chien-Pao ban, and if anything gets too good without it around it, that can be banned as well.
 
apoteosis said:
I just got the reqs yesterday with a psy spam team.

Believe me, pao is single-handedly keeping the archetype in check.

So, unless we do want a flood of cheesy builds and a swarm of boring balance teams, keep pao in the tier.
Click to expand...
When you say Psy spam teams, do you mean those Indeedee+Hatterene+Armarouge+Espathra/Polteageist teams? Cause I have defeated multiple of those, and I've never used Pao while doing so. If anything, those teams are just a good argument for an Espathra ban lmao, that's the only truly annoying thing in there.
 
yNot Mence said:
When you say Psy spam teams, do you mean those Indeedee+Hatterene+Armarouge+Espathra/Polteageist teams? Cause I have defeated multiple of those, and I've never used Pao while doing so. If anything, those teams are just a good argument for an Espathra ban lmao, that's the only truly annoying thing in there.
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that is indeed what they are mentioning, and honestly, espathra/polt are both stupid match up fish mons, with espathra being much much worse.

But yea honestly gambit and pao being so common makes them much more easy to take out.
 
Return to Zero said:
M

Personally, I think that if the best argument you can come up with is that the suspected mon is the only thing between us and some unfun meta that it apparently singlehandedly is keeping unviable, you should probably think a little more about this. If you have reqs, you can vote however you want and you don't need to listen to me, but you should probably remember that new suspect tests can be held after a potential Chien-Pao ban, and if anything gets too good without it around it, that can be banned as well.
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GSC OU would like a word with you.
 
SpritePony said:
GSC OU would like a word with you.
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This analogy would probably be funnier and a more scathing retort if Chien-Pao was in any way even slightly comparable to GSC Snorlax. I'm not against metagames where play is generally based around the best in the tier, like RSE Tyranitar as well for instance. I'm against people saying that OU needs Mega Weavile with effectively Kyurem Black's Attack stat, two priority moves, physical Ice STAB with flinch fun times, and Adaptability in order to fend off the vague, undefined threat of a bad meta.
 
yNot Mence said:
When you say Psy spam teams, do you mean those Indeedee+Hatterene+Armarouge+Espathra/Polteageist teams? Cause I have defeated multiple of those, and I've never used Pao while doing so. If anything, those teams are just a good argument for an Espathra ban lmao, that's the only truly annoying thing in there.
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Good for you I guess. But, exceptio probat regulam.
 
Return to Zero said:
This analogy would probably be funnier and a more scathing retort if Chien-Pao was in any way even slightly comparable to GSC Snorlax. I'm not against metagames where play is generally based around the best in the tier, like RSE Tyranitar as well for instance. I'm against people saying that OU needs Mega Weavile with effectively Kyurem Black's Attack stat, two priority moves, physical Ice STAB with flinch fun times, and Adaptability in order to fend off the vague, undefined threat of a bad meta.
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By all means, I am FOR the banning of Chien-Pao, but the issue with what you said lies in GSC, where with Snorlax, if it went then the tier goes absolutely bonkers. Chien-Pao isn't a healthy plug to a problematic tier shift, it's just a problem.
 
SpritePony said:
By all means, I am FOR the banning of Chien-Pao, but the issue with what you said lies in GSC, where with Snorlax, if it went then the tier goes absolutely bonkers. Chien-Pao isn't a healthy plug to a problematic tier shift, it's just a problem.
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There's a misunderstanding here. What I said was, if the best argument for keeping something around is that it's the only thing between us and some hell meta, maybe reconsider voting not to ban it. There are plenty of other, equally valid reasons not to ban Snorlax from GSC OU, which I'm assuming I don't need to tell you. Whereas I've yet to see any other argument for not banning Pao here that can't be easily disproven, if only because unlike Snor-less GSC it's based on nothing.
 
Return to Zero said:
There's a misunderstanding here. What I said was, if the best argument for keeping something around is that it's the only thing between us and some hell meta, maybe reconsider voting not to ban it. There are plenty of other, equally valid reasons not to ban Snorlax from GSC OU, which I'm assuming I don't need to tell you. Whereas I've yet to see any other argument for not banning Pao here that can't be easily disproven, if only because unlike Snor-less GSC it's based on nothing.
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Oh, I know what you said, it's the way you said it that made me respond with the GSC OU remark.
 
i don't think the anti chien pao ban arguments are working like this seems way too easy

i hope there's a more fight for garg and espathra in their suspect tests
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
of course the anti-ban arguments aren't working, pao is broken and everyone knows it. people are desperately trying to save pao from the hammer because they don't want to learn how to actually play the game
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You know, I would have liked you regardless after saying that Pao is broken, but the sheer audacity of your comment deserves recognition my brotha.
 
Black Hanzo said:
i don't think the anti chien pao ban arguments are working like this seems way too easy

i hope there's a more fight for garg and espathra in their suspect tests
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Garganacl might end up seeing less pushback because “stall bad”. Espathra seems a lot more potentially divisive given it's even more brainless than Pao and because it's broken in large part due to Tera.
 
I think we should stay on topic when it comes to Pao. Something I spoke to a friend about that I didn't bring up in my original post because it's not really "about" Pao is how he dominates the landscape against every other good physical attacker not named Tusk (Which is mainly for hazard and hazard removal).

Like anytime you're building a team (some posts spoke about how it's restricting to build a team that is prepared for it) but I would say even from a selfish reason, it's a easy Pokémon just to plug and play because it hits so damn hard and provides fantastic speed on top of that. Like I know I'm not the only one but when I'm building a team and I'm thinking of a strong physical breaker I lean towards Pao rather than (Roaring Moon, Breloom, Dragonite, Meowscarda, Cinderace and Kingambit).

It will always be the ideal #1 go to physical attacker to choose from because it hits so damn hard, Swords Dance, 4 Attacks (Boots), Choice Band are just such versatile options to choose from and on top of that you have 2 different priority moves, fantastic speed tier and solid bulk to be honest where it can take a hit from a wall. It's just a really dominating Pokémon, where if you have no ideas what to put on a physical attacker slot you just put it there as long as you have a entry hazard remover, and hazard provider in place ofc.
 
AndViet said:
I think we should stay on topic when it comes to Pao. Something I spoke to a friend about that I didn't bring up in my original post because it's not really "about" Pao is how he dominates the landscape against every other good physical attacker not named Tusk (Which is mainly for hazard and hazard removal).

Like anytime you're building a team (some posts spoke about how it's restricting to build a team that is prepared for it) but I would say even from a selfish reason, it's a easy Pokémon just to plug and play because it hits so damn hard and provides fantastic speed on top of that. Like I know I'm not the only one but when I'm building a team and I'm thinking of a strong physical breaker I lean towards Pao rather than (Roaring Moon, Breloom, Dragonite, Meowscarda, Cinderace and Kingambit).

It will always be the ideal #1 go to physical attacker to choose from because it hits so damn hard, Swords Dance, 4 Attacks (Boots), Choice Band are just such versatile options to choose from and on top of that you have 2 different priority moves, fantastic speed tier and solid bulk to be honest where it can take a hit from a wall. It's just a really dominating Pokémon, where if you have no ideas what to put on a physical attacker slot you just put it there as long as you have a entry hazard remover, and hazard provider in place ofc.
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I'm probably the exception to this because I suffer from the "I hate the shit outta this mon so I'm not gonna use it out of principle" Syndrome, but I just built another team with Pao in it and after testing it out I can absolutely understand what you mean. It's such a stupidly easy mon to use and stick on your team, and thanks to its sheer power you don't even have to bother too much with its movepool. The only things you really wanna click are its STABs and a priority move between Ice Shard (if Banded) or Sucker Punch, and you suddenly have a ridiculous match up against your foes. I just won a game where the only thing I did was chip down my opponents Kingambit, just so I could sac a mon and let my Pao switch in and pretty much solo its entire team, after 2HKOing the Kingambit with a Banded Crunch. Its ability to destroy the opponent's mons with so much ease is insane.
Edit: 5 more minutes and I'll be able to ban this little fucker lol
 
last post regarding pao, would be appreciated if u took ur time to go over this post quickly before voting if u haven't already.
pao vs no pao (W) note: pao got pivoted on by kingambit + scarf valiant then stopped by tera water chomp this 'W' is due to tera water curse garg. so much for the "prediction is always in favor of the pao player" argument... not easy to make a play when the punishment for getting it wrong is dying
pao vs pao (-) note: neither gets a kill but one flinches the other though speed ties and rolls were involved. both get pivoted on by corv into valiant and mola respectively
pao vs no pao (W) note: pao switches out turn 1 then never comes back in as the other 5 handle CBBs team adequately
no pao vs no pao (-)
pao vs pao (-) note: Fc's pao gets a couple opportunities to do something with a rkill but doesn't have the power to kill anything and ends up dying vs volc. by the time IPF brought out pao the match was already so heavily in his favor cleaning up with it is efficient but not impressive
pao vs no pao (W) note: pao shit destroyed a maushold build once the two dark resists died. tera dark living scarf ghold make it rain is cool though tinglu + pex also still wins the game at that point. again, pao gets several kills cleaning up because its the quickest at that even when the game is basically decided.
pao vs no pao (W) note: pao completely decimates this game with band tera dark. excellent display it doesn't even have to bother making predictions vs this team. though it should be noted the opponent had nothing to outspeed it.
pao vs pao (-) note: LO SD pao absolutely decimates this game, though we don't know if it was a speed tie which could've been crucial. another fantastic display by pao but again worthwhile to note the team that lost to pao had nothing to rkill it
no pao vs pao (W) note: pao forces a sack at one point, starmaster makes a fantastic bluff vs it afterwards. scizor goes onto put in a ton of work rather than pao. the tera fairy sandy shocks also put lax in a fantastic position earlier on with a surprise kill vs meow
no pao vs pao (L) note: pao doesn't get an opportunity here as the bullshit shed tail + bird cheese goes in
no pao vs no pao (-)
no pao vs pao (W) note: paos coverage has real potential to go in but without the power from CB its harder. even predicting the tera fairy icicle crash bounches off skele. talah ends up winning several 5050s in the end to clutch it with ghold + tusk
no pao vs no pao (-)
pao vs pao (-) note: mind gaming never sends out pao as armorage + teapot went in. michaelderbeste2 loses pao vs sash armorage.
pao vs no pao (W) note: pao forces a sack lategame after the rest of the team crippled the opponent. pao then gets crucial ice shard chip vs kingambit so it dies to poison. although depending on spreads/natures this wouldn't have mattered had pex not gotten a double tect
pao vs no pao (W) note: pao dies to tera fairy volc early on which helps ggggd win with ghold later on. can argue that forcing the tera and chipping the volc was instrumental to winning, though this is ghold going in not pao so
pao vs no pao (W) note: ash uses pao to bait a tera and pivot into ghold very nicely, though it doesn't attack at all this game.
no pao vs no pao (-)
pao vs pao (-) note: pao either can't rkill volc with sucker or aggressively predicted a switch from TJ. zioziotrip never sends out pao because volc goes in
no pao vs no pao (-)

Week 1 Summary
4 - pao gets a kill and gets other hits off
3 - pao does nothing and gets killed by a sweeper
2 - pao never gets sent out
2 - pao gets no kills thanks to pivoting
2 - pao fucks on a team that cant rkill it thanks to CB power
2 - pao comes in once but switches out and doesn't come out for the rest of the game
1 - pao fucks on a team with SD LO
1 - pao gets no kills dies to surprise tera
1 - pao cleans up nicely when in the lead + other team is weakened
1 - pao isn't able to break, gets no kills despite several opportunities
1 - pao gets no kills thanks to combination of pivoting and surprise tera

no pao vs no pao (-)
pao vs no pao (W) note: pao didnt even come out this game as Nat got swept by the combination of tera water SD valiant + iron moth
no pao vs no pao (-)
pao vs pao (-) both paos put in a lot of work and the game was decided to either a jolly or adamant speed tie
pao vs pao (-) note: Xrn's pao was rendered useless due to the tauros matchup. Xrn's pao was able to kill the weakened Great Tusk and finish off the burned Dragonite with Ice Shard. Nothing impressive shown from either pao this game.
pao vs no pao (L) note: Ash's Pao didnt come out until the end of the game and died Crunching a Kingambit, failing to chip it enough to revenge kill with Pult.
pao vs no pao (W) note: Bea's pao was played very linearly but was able to clean up the game thanks to a tera dark (heavydutyboots) Crunch.
no pao vs no pao (-)
pao vs no pao (W) note: boots (4 atks) pao cleans up late nicely thanks to coverage, not immense power
pao vs no pao (L) note: pao did nothing this game and just died to scizors BP
pao vs pao (-) note: Raptor's pao terad and killed the opposing terad (fire garchomp), but was revenge killed by Leo's pao, which did not change the outcome of the game due to Leo's weakness to Cinderace
pao vs no pao (W) note: pao cleaned up this game very nicely thanks to fast ice coverage, not especially due to super crunches being unresistable
no pao vs no pao (-)
pao vs no pao (W) note: all pao did was take 40% off rotom and died due to a discharge para, this chip would have been irrelevant if not to a sludge wave crit later on in the game
no pao vs no pao (-)
no pao vs no pao (-)
no pao vs no pao (-)
pao vs no pao (W) note: pao took 50% off kingambit and died
no pao vs no pao (-)
pao vs no pao (L) note: pao revenge killed an iron moth and flinched a tusk which it should not have killed otherwise

Week 2 Summary
5 - pao cleaned up late game thanks to speed and coverage
4 - pao died doing nothing relevant
2 - pao died in a 1v1 chipping the other pokemon (40% and 50%, proved to not be relevant in 1 game and relevant in the 2nd due to a crit)
1 - pao revenge killed the opposing pao, but the game was unwinnable from this point due to cinderace

the aim of this post is to provide an easy way to quickly understand pao's role in SPL games, allowing you to make a decision for yourself. i realized in my previous post i said pao was not instantly broken, which while i do still agree with, does not have to be a reason why you would vote DNB. in fact, my main takeaway from watching these games was that the tera dark band calcs that people have spammed in this thread to justify it being broken occurred twice in week 1 vs teams that had no way to rkill pao, which is simply poor teambuilding as even excluding pao having forms of speed control vs various threats in this meta is so crucial. in later weeks we fail to see this kind of beatdown at a high level due to players adapting their team structures. running speed control cannot be considered restricting so this is entirely healthy. furthermore we saw a decrease in tauros usage, showing that high level players don't feel restricted into using it and instead are capable of beating pao through naturally solid defensive cores and offensive pressure. the main pao set that has been putting in work in these games have been boots/lo sets with either SD or sacred sword as the 4th move. this set has proved its worth, but lacks the scary crunch calcs that we have seen, especially the heavydutyboots set.

to touch back on team composition, this idea of chien pao being restrictive to team building is something that i haven't seen. the few tauros examples exist, but aside from that, typically tusk + water + steel has been enough when it comes to dealing w pao, especially the band set. these cores aren't anything new and they will certainly see usage if pao was banned, so i really don't see its restrictiveness on teambuilding.

but, these are my opinions on it, feel free to take a look at these replays/summaries urself and decide what u think is best, but please keep in mind that these scary tera band calcs that have flooded this thread are not the issue with this pokemon.
 
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