Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Sleepwalking

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Finchinator

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Hey everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to test Walking Wake!



As of Pokemon Day -- February 27th, the Overused metagame received a dangerous toy while Suicune received a sure-to-be-awkward-at-parties, paradox sibling. Walking Wake has taken OU by storm since its release, spurring a renaissance of the Sun archetype. With a slew of appealing characteristics that we will delve into later, Walking Wake promptly altered the status quo of our metagame. Upon engaging in extensive discussion both externally and internally, the OU tiering council decided it was best to hold a multifaceted vote on Walking Wake! The vote consisted of two prompts with the former pertaining to quickbanning Walking Wake and the latter pertaining to suspecting Walking Wake. The results can be seen below:
QuickbanSuspect
FinchinatorBanYes
RuftDo not banYes
ausmaDo not banYes
FlamingVictiniDo not banYes
Ox the FoxDo not banYes
imaDo not banYes
StarBanYes
talahBanYes
TPPBanYes

Only four of the nine council members voted to ban Walking Wake from the metagame, falling short of the necessary threshold to enact a quickban (over 2/3, meaning at least 7/9). However, all nine members of the council voted to promptly suspect Walking Wake in the SV OU metagame if it were to not receive sufficient support, leading us to our third suspect of the ninth generation!

Walking Wake bursting out onto the scene is partially a testament to its unique signature move, Hydro Steam. Hydro Steam's power receives a boost under Sun despite being a Water type attack, which makes it one of the stronger moves in the game when you factor in for STAB, Protosynthesis, and other factors like the potential for Choice Specs. This creates a particularly explosive dynamic as counterplay to Sun teams is not used to accounting for boosted Water moves, but rather boosted Fire moves. There is a certain degree of strain on normal checks and counters to both Walking Wake that accompanies this. However, it is worth noting that Sun is an element of support and requires dedicating an entire team slot to Torkoal. While it is true Walking Wake is still very viable outside of Sun, it is not quite as strong of an option in that context.

In conjunction with Hydro Steam, Walking Wake also has access to the aforementioned ability, Protosynthesis, which can allow for a timely boost in an offensive stat under Sun or if Booster Energy is utilized. This can allow for Walking Wake to be even more problematic than initially perceived, but it does only come into play in certain contexts. Couple this with a Water-Dragon typing that is among the best in the game as well as a diverse movepool and it becomes clear as to why Walking Wake is already a top tier option. Water-Dragon allows for a number of resistances while only being weak to Dragon and Fairy types, which allows for Walking Wake to enter safely a sufficient amount of times despite not being geared to be defensive like Suicune. In terms of moves, Hydro Steam is the biggest talking point, but STAB Draco Meteor goes a long way as well. Throw in the option for Flamethrower, which could receive a Sun boost, or even Hurricane periodically when opting to utilize Rain and it has more than enough coverage. Hydro Pump can serve as a secondary, stronger STAB option outside of the Sun as well while Tera Blast can tie any loose ends together if specifically warranted. While it is true that Walking Wake receives no boosting moves of note outside of Agility, which makes it more of a breaker than a sweeper at its best, it does have superb coverage to pull off breaking opposing threats.

In terms of what variants we see, Choice Specs Walking Wake is the most common variant, which makes sense given the aforementioned coverage it receives and how spammable Hydro Steam is when utilized on Sun teams. With the right conditions, it is among the strongest members of the tier. Tera Water variants in particular are very hard to stop without an immunity! However, it can also run a Substitute set to ease prediction when people try to predict around Choice Specs. This can even opt to use Roar if paired with entry hazards as a means of wearing down would-be counterplay. This does trade-off considerable amounts of power, however, while Choice Specs does come with the burden of prediction if you are facing something that can stomach a Hydro Steam. We have also seen some stray all-out-attacking variants without Choice Specs, which can do quite a number to offensive teams, but oftentimes miss the extra muscle when facing more durable walls. Finally, a Booster Energy variant with Agility can function on hyper offense regardless of Sun being present, which capitalizes on the strength and coverage Walking Wake possesses.

Counterplay to Walking Wake is certainly limited and the extent to which it is limited will help determine if it is banworthy or not. This counterplay very much does exist, however. Offensively, revenge killing is very feasible. While it is a relatively fast Pokemon, teams oftentimes have one or multiple options that are quicker. Iron Valiant and Dragapult in particular can dispose of it through this method. With this said, they cannot enter safely with Dragapult only switching in once, assuming it is not both Tera Water and Sun boosted, and Iron Valiant being able to do so whatsoever, so you have to either fodder something before they come in or find a way to pivot around Walking Wake, which is not the most common practice.

This leads us to defensive counterplay, which is the biggest obstacle when it comes to handling Walking Wake. Some Pokemon can minimize it, even if they do not outright blank it, but this is not a particularly numerous group. Water Absorb Clodsire, specifically with Tera Fairy, does a great job against its STABs while being able to live two Choice Specs Flamethrowers, even if Sun is up. In addition, SDef Toxapex can minimize Walking Wake if it is not Tera Water boosted and around full health. Other, more fringe options such as Assault Vest Azumarill, SDef Slowking, and Blissey can also help do the trick, but their recent spike in usage is solely due to Walking Wake while they are otherwise middling (with Slowking at least seeing some decent use prior) and still susceptible to Tera Water as well. Overall, there is a lack of non-passive defensive counterplay to Walking Wake which is quite concerning. Many worry that Walking Wake's impact on the metagame will continue to polarize it, leaving bulky-offense and even balance less prevalent in the equation due to how limited they are while bulkier teams featuring the aforementioned walls or hyper offensive teams with revenge killing and constant pressure continue to surge.

Walking Wake is a unique and strong presence in the metagame. It has a practical set of tools that allow for it to provide a premium offensively in a tier that is arguably strapped for counterplay to it. With this said, it is still possible to defeat Walking Wake and we have seen a number of different methods mentioned above come into play to try and minimize it thus far. With Choice Specs being potent offensively, it is no surprise that Walking Wake has been deemed strong enough to be a prospect for tiering action. However, it does function best when receiving support from Sun, which is a particularly large ask on the teambuilding front. Overall, Walking Wake's place in the metagame is very significant and it has already been making large waves within less than a week. It will be interesting to see how this suspect test plays out. Keep in mind that any bans are likely to be voted on again when Pokemon Home drops and we are functioning under the premise that this will be released in Spring of 2023.


  • Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test!!! The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
GXEminimum games
8050
80.249
80.448
80.647
80.846
8145
81.244
81.443
81.642
81.841
8240
82.239
82.438
82.637
82.836
8335
83.234
83.433
83.632
83.831
8430

  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be OUFR. For example, I might signup with the ladder account OUFR Finch.
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
  • We will be using the regular OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
  • The suspect being tested, Walking Wake, will be allowed on the ladder.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or OU moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
  • The suspect test will go on for roughly two weeks, lasting until March 17th at 11:59 pm (GMT-4 -- please note clocks change mid-suspect test), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:


  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspects;
  • No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes retesting Walking Wake vs other potential suspects;
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  • Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
    • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
    • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
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    • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leaders, Finchinator and Ruft, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.
Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Forum Leaders. I am tagging Kris and Marty to let them know about this, too.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you.
 

Finchinator

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I will be voting ban on Walking Wake.

I think that it is a really unique Pokemon and I hope that it is a bit more balanced with a larger dex, but right now it warps the metagame. If you have played a large sample over the last week, you have seen the drastic shifts the metagame has experienced, including the stark increase in weather based teams and how generally volatile game-states have grown. The tier has grown to extremes rather than continuing to enable various playstyles, which it has done more and more with the prior bans.

This is in large part because the pool of viable checks and counters to Walking Wake is very limited, and only works with so many different team structures. At the end of the day, revenge killing and defensively checking Walking Wake are both possible, but the latter is mainly done by passive Pokemon that do not offer you much room when constructing teams. This is a major problem, in my opinion.

I intend to expand later with a long post once I obtain reqs, but I do not feel Walking Wake is healthy and I find counterplay to be too thin, so I will be voting ban.
 

AndViet

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Copy and editing a post I made on the discussions thread:

I'm pretty anti-Walking Wake in the current meta. I think the meta was in a really good place, where there wasn't really anything jumping out that seemed broken.

Walking Wake has a couple of checks or counters Gastro / Clodsire (Water Absorb), I'm sure a new tech could be added to beat certain counters since that's what tera blast is made for (Like Volc). To beat the Water Absorb brothers you can go with a Draco Meteor and hope to chip both down, but realistically both are solid counters (No Tera Blast included). Walking Wake has a very limited moveset (Hasn't really been a problem in the past with the likes of Chi-Yu), you don't have a lot of options in terms of moves, if you're running it under Sun. Chien Pao was hard countered by Tauros Paldea but people didn't want to run Tauros Paldea on their team over better options. It's the same idea here with Walking Wake. Slowking and Toxapex both do a solid job as well of checking for the most part (Specs + Sp.A Proto boost Draco Meteor hurts hella). Generally though any bulky water can take it on "decently" but the issue is the opposing team will be suited to take popular Walking Wake checks / counters.

So whatever you have "a lot checks / counters", now what? Protosynthesis.

:Walking Wake:
Walking Wake @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 12 Def / 244 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Steam
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
- Hydro Pump

1678078874890.png


This is where my problem with this Pokémon comes in, under Sun this thing is a bit "too much to handle". It's a low effort mon much like Chien Pao, smack a Choice item and go to town. You have roughly 520 Special Attack and 522 Speed, so outside of Iron Valiant with Booster Energy / Roaring Moon under Sun / Booster Energy you'll outspeed almost everything that doesn't have priority. Incredible speed tier to say the least, and then you have 520 Special Attack with a move that does 120 BP (under sun) + STAB = 180 total, it really puts a hole into a lot of things and that's not with Tera Water slapped onto it (Very reminiscing of Chi-Yu + Tera Fire). This is for the Speed boost proto boost but the SpA proto boost hits much much harder and is an insane wall breaker.

This really puts a restriction on team building, could the meta stay like this with Walking Wake? Absolutely.
Will people get used to it and stop complaining? Probably.
Is it unhealthy to the metagame? No doubt.

Lastly I want to touch on its bulk and type overall which is understated a lot these last couple of days. Off the bat it's weak to only Dragon / Fairies, so if your opponent switches into something that is trying to take it down, easy play is to stay in and Tera Water to avoid the probable OHKO. 339 HP no investment is a nice base to build around, 221 Defense [12 EVs] invested + 202 Special Defense means you can take on hits from walls quite comfortably so you cannot easily take it down unless you plan on hitting it neutrally with something that has a Choice Band / Choice Specs. My opinions can change in the next 2 weeks, but so far I have a lot of arguments for banning it vs keeping it in the meta at this moment. I'm most likely going to be voting ban.
 
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Togkey

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Walking Wake is an interesting situation because I think it's not up for debate that it is blatantly broken... on Sun teams. I haven't seen any success from a WW without Sun, which isn't to say anything about its viability but I think it's safe to say this discussion is about WW exclusively when under Sun and its affect on the metagame. In previous generations, I'd say this isn't much of an issue, as weather was always a huge commitment in the builder and was always liable to bad MU's, which can still be seen today, with bulky Dragon-types like Hydreigon and Dragonite being huge issues for sun, and Water Absorb Clodsire and Dragonite (Dragonite is really good lol) sitting on Rain teams. However in generation 9, with a bevy of Protosynthesis mon that are already phenomenal in their own right being even further boosted by Sun, Great Tusk, Roaring Moon, Scream Tail, etc., other Sun abusers being even better than normal thanks to Tera, Scovillain, Cinderace, and Iron Moth, and Sun support (hazard control) being relatively easy to fit on in the likes of Hatterene, Corviknight, and the aforementioned Great Tusk, Sun is simply not a commitment in the sense that it has glaring downsides to running. It's strengths far outweigh its few weaknesses and can be altered in structure to make these bad matchups not a big deal. I think the result of Sun teams being made over-the-top isn't a bad thing in and of itself, but the fact that there's really no reason to not use your own Sun team in response because all other playstyles currently get shredded by Sun besides weird blatant counterteams that do badly into everything else in the meta will be a huge issue in terms of centralization for the metagame.

TL;DR:
Walking Wake is only broken on Sun, but Sun becomes so powerful with its presence that the tier becomes completely warped around Sun teams in an unhealthy way, I will be voting ban.
 
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I will be voting Ban.

Walking Wake is shifting the metagame too much with the prevalence of sun being everywhere due to it,
Walking Wake can do some absurd calcs under sun and has a great stat distribution with a great signature move as well.

The fact that it has protosynthesis that synergizes very well alongside Sun and Rain,it's signature also gives it a 120 BP spammable move (In Sun) forces the playerbase to constantly always have a check on their team. Water Absorb Clodsire, Assault Vest Azumarill, Spdef Pex, Gastrodon, and Slowking being the most prominent checks I've seen. Even without sun you can still run it normally without weather to help counter Sun and Rain in and out of itself,

This thing is too unhealthy and constricting for the metagame as it forces the playerbase to always run a check which might not synergize with the team but is needed just to check a single mon, with Terastalyzation this makes it so much harder to counter


The Notable Tera Types in my opinion are :
- Water (Boosts the 80 BP move which is further boosted in sun, also removing dragon type defensively)
- Dragon (Boosts Draco Meteor and removes water defensively giving it a grass and electric resist whilst making it weak to ice)
- Fairy (Terablast + Other WW)
- Fire (Boosts Flamethrower, Removes Fairy weakness into a resist at the cost of being weak to SR)

And there's also the sets such as Choice Specs (SpA Protosynthesis), Choice Specs (Spe Protosynthesis), Sub+Roar, Choice Scarf (SpA Protosynthesis) to name a few.

Overall WW is too constricting in the current metagame so as I said. I'll be voting to ban WW
 
I'm voting BAN, so now Garganacl has one less check and that means more oppressive metagame for it

For real tho, I kinda like the mon, but I guess I would be voting ban, its move pool is sad until you get an agility + proto SpA boost, people running scarf on rain, specs on sun, sun right now is the only truly viable weather, and it went from OP to underrated to OP back to back, and what makes it worse is the amount of easy support you have to put anyways, Hatterene, Tusk and torkoal makes it so that stall cannot pass if it is CM, tusk spins and torkoal rocks and can use stuff like Clear Smog-on set up sweepers, Yawn, Earth Power, etc. Walking Wake right now makes the metagame go back into the dark times of BW when it was the actual gen, and I don't think we should go back there.

We don't have the tools to adapt to it, we are going to get them eventually, I can already see it on UUBL when Ferro + Pex + Gliscor + Clefable come back to hard stall the gen, but for now, we need to solve the most amount of problems in the least amount of time possible, so the faster we get a consensus the better

With that being said, I dislike that we are banning another thing that Sylveon counters
 
Walking Wake isn't broken. What are you talking about? It's a perfectly fine way to counter Torkoal leads and oh who am I kidding? Walking Wake is very unhealthy for the metagame. It is beyond restricting and it's making the meta stale. I do like me some weather teams, but not when it's this stale. Not even stale, it's fucking moldy. It's not broken when you're running whatever the fuck I"m using (Sunny Day, Three Attacks), but it's absurd in sun. Not as insane as Chi-Yu, but still completely crazy. I actually resorted to using some really silly shit in a desperate attempt to stop Walking Wake (I'm looking at you, Golduck). With Walking Wake Gone, we'll see how well Terrain spam and Iron Leaves fair in the meta.
I Support a Walking Wake Ban.
I also Support a Garganacl Ban, but that's really only because we don't have any Rock Type Ubers outside of Arceus forms.
 

Srn

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Hello OU,

To my understanding, the general consensus seems to be kinda split. I'd like to argue why I think Walking Wake is broken. In my opinion, I think the Proto speed boost Specs set is the best and most dangerous one which is polarizing the tier, so I'm gonna mostly talk about that one. For reference, here it is below:

Walking Wake @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Steel / Dragon / Electric
EVs: 8 HP / 4 Def / 244 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Steam
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
- Tera Blast

When you factor in tera, this set is NOT walled by Slowking, Amoonguss, Toxapex, Clodsire, Tera Water Garg, Gastrodon, etc. Only a Tera Water Blissey is safe. Tera Dragon is pretty straightfoward to power up Draco Meteor, but you may raise eyebrows at Tera Steel and Electric, so let me explain. Tera Steel turns fairy+dragon weakness into resist and Tera Blast Steel will hit your checks which like to tera fairy to become immune to draco. Tera Electric removes all weaknesses except ground, which you will hit with stab hydro steam. Tera Blast Electric hits 2hkos slowking, toxapex, and tera water garg. I will now post a meaningful wall of calcs, which you will read closely.

244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Walking Wake Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 444-526 (95.8 - 113.6%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Steel Walking Wake Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Clodsire: 272-324 (58.7 - 69.9%)
244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Walking Wake Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 418-494 (106 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns
244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Electric Walking Wake Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 254-302 (64.4 - 76.6%)
244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Walking Wake Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 474-562 (117.3 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Electric Walking Wake Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 294-348 (72.7 - 86.1%)
244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Walking Wake Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 346-410 (113.8 - 134.8%)
244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Electric Walking Wake Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 216-254 (71 - 83.5%)

For all of the Tera Blast Elec on Water type calcs, you can consider Tera Blast Steel on Tera Fairy to be the same damage.


Under sun, this set is hitting 522 speed, which is faster than every unboosted pokemon and every popular scarfer besides Iron Valiant, as well as less popular ones like Meowscarada and Roaring Moon. It is not weak to any priority moves, not weak to rocks, and with a Water/Dragon typing and a defensive statline of 99/91/83, this mon is NOT FRAIL. I could show you calcs of it sometimes avoiding a 2hko from scarf gholdengo shadow ball or whatever but it would just be another arbitrary wall of calcs.

So Walking Wake is very fast and strong and not easy to revenge kill, what does this mean for the tier? It means there are a very small pool of half answers (Water Absorb Clodsire, Slowking, Scarf Iron Valiant being the best imo), and without them, you risk being steamrolled (h) by Walking Wake under sun. Keep in mind all the "switch-ins" were calc'd vs a Proto Speed Specs WW, a Proto Sp.A Specs WW will be much stronger albeit more vulnerable to revenge killing. This has a polarizing and unhealthy effect on the meta, and I believe Walking Wake should be banned for it.

"But wait! It often needs tera to get past its checks! This is a big opportunity cost that makes Walking Wake balanced!"

If WW uses tera to muscle past clodsire, it's probably outspeeding and ohko'ing the rest of your team. That's always worth it, and the opportunity cost isn't high enough to balance WW.

"But wait! Providing Sun is a lot of support! This is a big opportunity cost that makes Walking Wake balanced!"

I disagree with this line of logic heavily, and you only need to look at our first round of quickbans to see why. Does anybody really think Houndstone was overpowered without sand rush? Last respects needed 3-4 mons dead to become broken, and houndstone is only hitting 258 speed out of sand. Tyranitar and Hippowdon are also much worse than they used to be. Ttar has to contend with the Superstar of SV OU, Great Tusk. Hippowdon lost toxic, making it much more passive, and faces stiff competition from better ground types like ting-lu, great tusk, clodsire, etc.
Despite all this, the cost of running Ttar/Hippo was not high enough to balance Houndstone, so I likewise don't believe that the cost of running torkoal is high enough to balance WW (sun also has higher number and higher variety of abusers.) A direct comparison doesn't hold up bc the base power of Last Respects is ludicrous and WW is much more prediction reliant, but then again that's why we quickbanned houndstone and are suspecting WW.

To wrap up: WW has no safe switch-ins and very limited counterplay, while also being super fast and not frail, making it difficult to revenge kill. It needs support to get there, but that support is far from unviable, nor is it making WW balanced. I'll be voting BAN. Thanks for reading.
 
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So this is a tough decision. I have points that work for both, Yes WW is broken on SUN teams. The only mon that can summon the sun on switch-in is Torkoal, which is wiped off the face of the earth by an earth power. So if we can find ways to keep the sun off the field, then we've countered WW. This, however, doesn't work with choiced WW. While Knock Off is an option, nothing could live long enough to do it without a focus sash. For these reasons, I am voting we strike the ban hammer down on this Jurrasic BS. EDIT: It's also broken in the rain. DO NOT COUNTER IT WITH THE RAIN.
 
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walking wake is not broken. there is (a) nothing wrong with sun being top-tier & (b) sun as an archetype folds heavy to many common threats:
:dragapult:you click substitute on torkoal and it literally shits on every sun staple with dragon darts | hex | will-o-wisp

:great tusk: offensive great tusk abuses your opponent setting up sun and is an absolute bastard for your opponent to reliably check since their defensive backbone usually consists of hatterene + their own defensive tusk max

:dragonite: sun folds 6-0 to this. bulk up +def tusk is usually their only answer which is not hard at all to wear down

:volcarona: another pokemon sun struggles with. walking wake does check it but this is moot depending on its tera type. simply bringing volcarona in causes a lot of sun players to panic so you can even click bug buzz on the switch to chip walking wake and set up later

:glimmora: any glimmora set is an absolute bitch for sun to maneuver around. if they go hard into walking wake on stealth rock, you can proceed to chip it with dazzling gleam via focus sash then sack it later in the game to get up a toxic spike

:walking wake: even your own walking wake is phenomenal check since it 4x resists hydro steam which makes it maneuverable around in practice when paired with a fairy-type. i know someone is going to say "you're using broken to check broken" but some of walking wake's best sets are substitute + roar with hazard support & booster energy, both which don't require sun support. bringing sun is a risk because while you do make your walking wake extremely potent, it can also backfire in case your opponent loads a weather-less team with walking wake

:garchomp: show me a sun team then show me their chainchomp switch-ins
+speed proto is very scary but even offense has plenty of checks. in addition to threats i displayed above, some of these include:

iron valiant (booster / scarf)
booster iron moth
azumarill
kingambit after some chip
a plethora of dragon-types like hydreigon, baxcalibur, and roaring moon that punish the hydro steam lock
focus sash users such as meowscarada, ceruledge, breloom, and zoroark-h
timely defensive teras to heavily chip if not outright remove walking wake

if it's +SpA protosynthesis, your options for revenge killing are even wider. a 'mon i like using right now is:greninja:greninja. choice specs grass knot always OHKO's after SR. greninja is also impossible for sun teams to switch into in general
some high ladder replays of walking wake being manageable with various styles of offense: 1 / 2 / 3

now that i have this out of the way, i'm going to address the main issue people have with walking wake and that is whether this pokemon has defensive counter-play. not only do I think it has defensive counter-play but all of walking wake's defensive counter-play is both viable and abundant. allow me to list some of it:

:clodsire: water absorb clodsire cockblocks walking wake. if you pair it with a fairy-type (basic team-building synergy my guy, it's not hard to ask for), your opponent will have trouble choosing whether to click hydro steam and draco meteor. if clodsire comes in on draco meteor, you recover. if they overpredict and go for hydro steam, you have a free turn to spike or toxic.
:slowking:i find it funny how whoever wrote the OP said this is a "fringe option." slowking is very good, B+ rank 'mon prior to walking wake's introduction and chilly reception absolutely dicks on sun teams. sun 'mons without protosynthesis are UU-level threats
:toxapex: toxapex is a dogshit pokemon and players are still using it despite the nerfs and chien-pao ban. toxapex now has a defined niche. it pivots in safely and is a pain for sun teams in general since it can put on a lot of pressure with toxic spikes
:garganacl:
take a look at this replay and tell me what sun does to water garganacl. sun is ass bro, shit loses 6-0 to it LOL just pair it with a fairy- or a steel-type like corviknight in my case for in-game flexibility
:scream tail: extremely solid walking wake answer since it receives the +spdef boost in sun. scream tail is criminally underrated: it literally counter-teams all the brainless HO's being spammed right now with encore. wish keeps teammates healthy
:hippowdon::tyranitar:underexplored 'mons that i have been spamming. sun never stays up when you have either sand setter and these are not bad pokemon at all. sand chip in general is lowkey broken and both 'mons are solid stealth rock setters. hatterene are mostly eject on sun and draining kiss never outheals eq + sand chip from hippowdon. in case you don't play sun, hippowdon is still a bitch to take down in other mu's and annoys the fuck out of offense with whirlwind. tyranitar has utility by checking 'mons like skeledirge, iron moth, and certain volcarona sets, spreading paralysis, and applying pressure to great tusk on the switch with ice beam. while neither sand setter is a walking wake switch-in, sand allows you to get away with softer counter-play like amoonguss or specially defensive corviknight for walking wake
:blissey: exclusive to stall

^ this is all when it comes to hard counter-play in the builder. walking wake can also be dealt with in practice with combinations like fairy-type + specially defensive rotom-w (not an unset, people were using this for dragapult even pre-walking wake) and yes, dare i say it, gastrodon

:gastrodon-east::garganacl::iron moth::corviknight::great tusk::ditto:
https://pokepast.es/46a0bae5e238a594
in order to prove my points, i decided to use some fat balance for my 30-0 suspect test run. it would be hypocritical if i used offense and said walking wake was fine, wouldn't it? gastrodon is very good in my opinion. the shit got spikes this generation which means it's not as passive as you think despite losing scald and toxic. and unlike clodsire, it can actually kill great tusk with surf which is big. the gastrodon on this team is forced to run clear smog (hatterene 6-0's otherwise) but i can see this thing doing even more work on different team compositions as earth power is a nice secondary stab for exerting pressure. garganacl is my fairy-type and stealth rock user of choice to complete the hazard core and force walking wake into uncomfortable situations when it comes to picking between hydro steam and draco meteor. curse > protect in order to bypass certain substitute users. iron moth is my np gholdengo check, while also checking skeledirge and volcarona with acid spray. corviknight and great tusk complete the defensive backbone to blanket check a lot of attackers (mainly kingambit and opposing great tusk) while providing hazard control simultaneously. ditto is used last for flexibility vs cheese + set up 'mons that get out of control since the squad has no unaware users. it's also nice for winning salt cure pp wars vs opposing garganacl

____
now allow me to address the entire :walking wake:
tera-dragon +SpA protosynthesis modest specs argument. i had a scary encounter with this set yesterday and it did some insane shit like 82% to my physically defensive corviknight and basically being an auto-kill button vs my fat balance. AND I STILL HAD OUTS VS IT. i played him a couple games afterwards too and i came to the realization his team was just a shitty match-up fish squad as all i did with a different team the 2nd game was bring in chomp and claim a kill every time x button

i don't find these types of sets to be a good indicator on whether walking wake is broken or not as they are only good in specific mu's and and a complete liability in others. great tusk can do the same shit with cb adamant +atk protosynthesis tera-ground headlong rush. should we ban that too? the calc's say otherwise don't it? take a look at this replay as well. should we ban iron valiant? all i did was set-up terrain then come in with +SpA quark drive modest specs tera-fairy moonblast and invalidated this guy's entire balance team! broken!

i find walking wake extremely tame compared to :volcarona::garganacl: volcarona and garganacl. it's only been a week since walking wake has been released and players are refusing to adapt which i find to be a big problem. we gave pussy garg 5 fuckin' months and there still hasn't been any tiering action despite the last survey saying otherwise. running hyper-specific cloak 'mons and tech'ing substitute on everything is healthy, right guys? cloak toxapex, cloak amoonguss, cloak corv etc. are dogshit; you're using it as a meowscarada, iron valiant, and great tusk knock off switch-in too! not to mention the whole substitute thing can be counter-acted by curse sets lol

but you know what? let's ignore that because apparently walking mid is some flutter mane level threat that needs immediate tiering action! fuck outta here man, it's only been 6 days. i'm voting do not ban, you guys are all soft as fuck
 
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now that i have this out of the way, i'm going to address the main issue people have with walking wake and that is whether this pokemon has defensive counter-play. not only do I think it has defensive counter-play but all of walking wake's defensive counter-play is both viable and abundant. allow me to list some of it:
>Makes a post about all the viable Walking Wake counterplay
>Doesnt even mention :Sylveon:

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Psyshock
- Hyper Voice

What is the problem with all of you, nobody would bat an eye if this was Clefable, in fact, I'm so pissed that i wanna show you all something

244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable in Sun: 220-261 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 230-272 (67.2 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Where is your god now?

MEANWHILE

252+ SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon in Sun: 246-289 (62.4 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This here is the worst case scenario where you go modest, choice locked and in sun, but Wake would rather run timid and benefit from the speed boost, you can't come in, but it's slow and choice locked, if you enter as the same time as him, you just protect and stun lock

244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon in Sun: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is the standard scenario, where timid specs and sun, you have more than enough time to plan something

4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 296-350 (86.5 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Its a roll but possible, and if for some godforsaken reason is behind a sub, it doesn't even matter

"Oh, but what about Tera Poison + Tera Blast to lure bulky fairys"
Okay, run tera psychic

244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Poison Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Psychic Sylveon: 186-219 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Poison Walking Wake Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Psychic Sylveon: 114-135 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery


4 SpA Tera Psychic Sylveon Psyshock vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Tera Poison Walking Wake: 204-242 (59.6 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Reject Clefable
Return to Sylveon
 
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Glad my boy clodsire has a good time walling it, but after trying it out on a new acc got to 1725 so fast it just rolls teams without any checks and you can just eventually wear down walking wake’s counters or checks and it also benefits vs rain teams since it will still get stab from hydro steam plus has access to hurrican, voting to ban.
 

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i'm pretty surprised by the idea that speed boosting wake is the way to go. in my experience just going spa boosting is the way, and you don't have to go modest either. its speed tier is already very good so you don't rly need to be going into the 500s. you're running sun, you won't have issues with your offense matchup regardless since you have so many anti-offense options. makes seeing people cite stuff like max spdef garg / pex as options to beat it a bit sad considering...



no tera required! just straight up dead w rocks. both are spdef too! stuff like slowking drops to tera dragon but can at least stomach 1 non-tera'd draco.

stuff like blissey, scream tail, tera fairy water absorbers etc can somewhat handle it (not really tho lol it's rly just clod - 252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Gastrodon in Sun: 229-270 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) and if you're running offense you should be able to beat it out through outspeeding and threatening, tho you will still realistically need smth like an azumarill for insurance.

Walking Wake is very broken. The tip of the iceberg hasn't even been reached; shit like Tera Fire just straight 2HKOs Clodsire and isn't even a prediction game bc resists get shredded anyway - Rotom, Pex (non-Calm variants), Garg (non-Careful variants, but even these if they've taken any chip) etc all get 2HKOd by Flamethrower with that set. Or just flat OHKOd by Tera Dragon Draco. Or 2HKOd by Hydro Steam regardless of their Tera-type, investment, or anything else.

The versatility is also problematic. I don't particularly rate the speed boosting sets like I've said but they do clearly exist and have very different counterplay to the SpA boosting ones, with ultimately very little tradeoff for the Walking Wake user (8 less EVs). Throw in the ability to do literally whatever it wants with its Tera type and still be good and you have a very centralising mon. It just makes sun too good. It's good off sun too, although very clearly not broken there.

i've been laddering a bunch and will be getting reqs this weekend to vote ban on it, it's just a silly mon that claims literally every turn it's on the field. maybe after home it can be looked at again or maybe drought can be suspected instead or something should it prove to be an issue w/ more tools but for now i think this is p clearly a wake issue
 
walking wake is not broken. there is (a) nothing wrong with sun being top-tier & (b) sun as an archetype folds heavy to many common threats:
:dragapult:you click substitute on torkoal and it literally shits on every sun staple with dragon darts | hex | will-o-wisp

:great tusk: offensive great tusk abuses your opponent setting up sun and is an absolute bastard for your opponent to reliably check since their defensive backbone usually consists of hatterene + their own defensive tusk max

:dragonite: sun folds 6-0 to this. bulk up +def tusk is usually their only answer which is not hard at all to wear down

:volcarona: another pokemon sun struggles with. walking wake does check it but this is moot depending on its tera type. simply bringing volcarona in causes a lot of sun players to panic so you can even click bug buzz on the switch to chip walking wake and set up later

:glimmora: any glimmora set is an absolute bitch for sun to maneuver around. if they go hard into walking wake on stealth rock, you can proceed to chip it with dazzling gleam via focus sash then sack it later in the game to get up a toxic spike

:walking wake: even your own walking wake is phenomenal check since it 4x resists hydro steam which makes it maneuverable around in practice when paired with a fairy-type. i know someone is going to say "you're using broken to check broken" but some of walking wake's best sets are substitute + roar with hazard support & booster energy, both which don't require sun support. bringing sun is a risk because while you do make your walking wake extremely potent, it can also backfire in case your opponent loads a weather-less team with walking wake
+speed proto is very scary but even offense has plenty of checks. in addition to threats i displayed above, some of these include:

iron valiant (booster / scarf)
booster iron moth
azumarill
kingambit after some chip
a plethora of dragon-types like hydreigon, baxcalibur, and roaring moon that punish the hydro steam lock
focus sash users such as meowscarada, ceruledge, breloom, and zoroark-h
timely defensive teras to heavily chip if not outright remove walking wake

if it's +SpA protosynthesis, your options for revenge killing are even wider. a 'mon i like using right now is greninja. choice specs grass knot always OHKO's after SR. greninja is also impossible for sun teams to switch into in general
some high ladder replays of walking wake being manageable with various styles of offense: 1 / 2 / 3

now that i have this out of the way, i'm going to address the main issue people have with walking wake and that is whether this pokemon has defensive counter-play. not only do I think it has defensive counter-play but all of walking wake's defensive counter-play is both viable and abundant. allow me to list some of it:

:clodsire: water absorb clodsire cockblocks walking wake. if you pair it with a fairy-type (basic team-building synergy my guy, it's not hard to ask for), your opponent will have trouble choosing whether to click hydro steam and draco meteor. if clodsire comes in on draco meteor, you recover. if they overpredict and go for hydro steam, you have a free turn to spike or toxic.
:slowking:i find it funny how whoever wrote the OP said this is a "fringe option." slowking is very good, B+ rank 'mon prior to walking wake's introduction and chilly reception absolutely dicks on sun teams. sun 'mons without protosynthesis are UU-level threats
:toxapex: toxapex is a dogshit pokemon and players are still using it despite the chien-pao ban. toxapex now has a defined niche. it pivots in safely and is a pain for sun teams in general since it can put on a lot of pressure with toxic spikes
:garganacl:
take a look at this replay and tell me what sun does to water garganacl. sun is ass bro, shit loses 6-0 to it LOL just pair it with a fairy- or a steel-type like corviknight in my case for in-game flexibility
:scream tail: extremely solid walking wake answer since it receives the +spdef boost in sun. scream tail is criminally underrated: it literally counter-teams all the brainless HO's being spammed right now with encore. wish keeps teammates healthy
:hippowdon::tyranitar:underexplored 'mons that i have been spamming. sun never stays up when you have either sand setter and these are not bad pokemon at all. sand chip in general is lowkey broken and both 'mons are solid stealth rock setters. hatterene are mostly eject on sun and draining kiss never outheals eq + sand chip from hippowdon. in case you don't play sun, hippowdon is still a bitch to take down in other mu's and annoys the fuck out of offense with whirlwind. tyranitar has utility for checking 'mons like skeledirge, iron moth, and certain volcarona sets, while also applying pressure to great tusk on the switch with ice beam. while neither sand setters are walking wake switch-ins, sand allows you to get away with softer counter-play like amoonguss or specially defensive corviknight for walking wake
:blissey: exclusive to stall

^ this is all when it comes to hard counter-play in the builder. walking wake can also be dealt with in practice with combinations like fairy-type + specially defensive rotom-w (not an unset, people were using this for dragapult even pre-walking wake) and yes, dare i say it, gastrodon

:gastrodon-east::garganacl::iron moth::corviknight::great tusk::ditto:
https://pokepast.es/46a0bae5e238a594
in order to prove my points, i decided to use some fat balance for my 30-0 suspect test run. it would be hypocritical if i used offense and said walking wake was fine, wouldn't it? gastrodon is very good in my opinion. the shit got spikes this generation which means it's not as passive as you think despite losing scald and toxic. and unlike clodsire, it can actually kill great tusk with surf which is big. the gastrodon on this team is forced to run clear smog (hatterene 6-0's otherwise) but i can see this thing doing even more work on different team compositions as earth power is a nice secondary stab for exerting pressure. garganacl is my fairy-type and stealth rock user of choice to complete the hazard core and force walking wake into uncomfortable situations when it comes to picking between hydro steam and draco meteor. curse > protect in order to bypass certain substitute users. iron moth is my np gholdengo check, while also checking skeledirge and volcarona with acid spray. corviknight and great tusk complete the defensive backbone to blanket check a lot of attackers (mainly great tusk and kingambit) while providing hazard control simultaneously. ditto is used last for flexibility vs cheese + set up 'mons that get out of control since the squad has no unaware users

____
now allow me to address the entire :walking wake:
tera-dragon +SpA protosynthesis modest specs argument. i had a scary encounter with this set yesterday and it did some insane shit like 82% to my physically defensive corviknight and basically being an auto-kill button vs my fat balance. AND I STILL HAD OUTS VS IT. i played him a couple games afterwards too and i came to the realization his team was just a shitty match-up fish squad as all i did with a different team the 2nd game was bring in chomp and claim a kill every time x button

i don't find these types of sets to be a good indicator on whether walking wake is broken or not as they are only good in specific mu's and and a complete liability in others. great tusk can do the same shit with cb adamant +atk protosynthesis tera-ground headlong rush. should we ban that too? the calc's say otherwise don't it? take a look at this replay as well. should we ban iron valiant? all i did was set-up terrain then come in with +SpA quark drive modest specs tera-fairy moonblast and invalidated this guy's entire balance team! broken!

i find walking wake extremely tame compared to :volcarona::garganacl: volcarona and garganacl. it's only been a week since walking wake has been released and players are refusing to adapt which i find to be a big problem. we gave pussy garg 5 fuckin' months and there still hasn't been any tiering action despite the last survey saying otherwise. running hyper-specific cloak 'mons and tech'ing substitute on everything is healthy, right guys? cloak toxapex, cloak amoonguss, cloak corv etc. are dogshit; you're using it as a meowscarada, iron valiant, and great tusk knock off switch-in too! not to mention the whole substitute thing can be counter-acted by curse sets lol

but you know what? let's ignore that because apparently walking mid is some flutter mane level threat that needs immediate tiering action! fuck outta here man, it's only been 6 days. i'm voting do not ban, you guys are all soft as fuck
It will definitely be less broken when Home drops, but for now...It's just REALLY unhealthy. I shouldn't have to run Golduck or Sylveon to counter this funny Suicune Lookin' Ass Theropod. I do agree about Garg, though. I wish that people would suspect test that FUCKING Salt Temple.
 
walking wake is not broken. there is (a) nothing wrong with sun being top-tier & (b) sun as an archetype folds heavy to many common threats:
:dragapult:you click substitute on torkoal and it literally shits on every sun staple with dragon darts | hex | will-o-wisp

:great tusk: offensive great tusk abuses your opponent setting up sun and is an absolute bastard for your opponent to reliably check since their defensive backbone usually consists of hatterene + their own defensive tusk max

:dragonite: sun folds 6-0 to this. bulk up +def tusk is usually their only answer which is not hard at all to wear down

:volcarona: another pokemon sun struggles with. walking wake does check it but this is moot depending on its tera type. simply bringing volcarona in causes a lot of sun players to panic so you can even click bug buzz on the switch to chip walking wake and set up later

:glimmora: any glimmora set is an absolute bitch for sun to maneuver around. if they go hard into walking wake on stealth rock, you can proceed to chip it with dazzling gleam via focus sash then sack it later in the game to get up a toxic spike

:walking wake: even your own walking wake is phenomenal check since it 4x resists hydro steam which makes it maneuverable around in practice when paired with a fairy-type. i know someone is going to say "you're using broken to check broken" but some of walking wake's best sets are substitute + roar with hazard support & booster energy, both which don't require sun support. bringing sun is a risk because while you do make your walking wake extremely potent, it can also backfire in case your opponent loads a weather-less team with walking wake
+speed proto is very scary but even offense has plenty of checks. in addition to threats i displayed above, some of these include:

iron valiant (booster / scarf)
booster iron moth
azumarill
kingambit after some chip
a plethora of dragon-types like hydreigon, baxcalibur, and roaring moon that punish the hydro steam lock
focus sash users such as meowscarada, ceruledge, breloom, and zoroark-h
timely defensive teras to heavily chip if not outright remove walking wake

if it's +SpA protosynthesis, your options for revenge killing are even wider. a 'mon i like using right now is greninja. choice specs grass knot always OHKO's after SR. greninja is also impossible for sun teams to switch into in general
some high ladder replays of walking wake being manageable with various styles of offense: 1 / 2 / 3

now that i have this out of the way, i'm going to address the main issue people have with walking wake and that is whether this pokemon has defensive counter-play. not only do I think it has defensive counter-play but all of walking wake's defensive counter-play is both viable and abundant. allow me to list some of it:

:clodsire: water absorb clodsire cockblocks walking wake. if you pair it with a fairy-type (basic team-building synergy my guy, it's not hard to ask for), your opponent will have trouble choosing whether to click hydro steam and draco meteor. if clodsire comes in on draco meteor, you recover. if they overpredict and go for hydro steam, you have a free turn to spike or toxic.
:slowking:i find it funny how whoever wrote the OP said this is a "fringe option." slowking is very good, B+ rank 'mon prior to walking wake's introduction and chilly reception absolutely dicks on sun teams. sun 'mons without protosynthesis are UU-level threats
:toxapex: toxapex is a dogshit pokemon and players are still using it despite the chien-pao ban. toxapex now has a defined niche. it pivots in safely and is a pain for sun teams in general since it can put on a lot of pressure with toxic spikes
:garganacl:
take a look at this replay and tell me what sun does to water garganacl. sun is ass bro, shit loses 6-0 to it LOL just pair it with a fairy- or a steel-type like corviknight in my case for in-game flexibility
:scream tail: extremely solid walking wake answer since it receives the +spdef boost in sun. scream tail is criminally underrated: it literally counter-teams all the brainless HO's being spammed right now with encore. wish keeps teammates healthy
:hippowdon::tyranitar:underexplored 'mons that i have been spamming. sun never stays up when you have either sand setter and these are not bad pokemon at all. sand chip in general is lowkey broken and both 'mons are solid stealth rock setters. hatterene are mostly eject on sun and draining kiss never outheals eq + sand chip from hippowdon. in case you don't play sun, hippowdon is still a bitch to take down in other mu's and annoys the fuck out of offense with whirlwind. tyranitar has utility for checking 'mons like skeledirge, iron moth, and certain volcarona sets, while also applying pressure to great tusk on the switch with ice beam. while neither sand setters are walking wake switch-ins, sand allows you to get away with softer counter-play like amoonguss or specially defensive corviknight for walking wake
:blissey: exclusive to stall

^ this is all when it comes to hard counter-play in the builder. walking wake can also be dealt with in practice with combinations like fairy-type + specially defensive rotom-w (not an unset, people were using this for dragapult even pre-walking wake) and yes, dare i say it, gastrodon

:gastrodon-east::garganacl::iron moth::corviknight::great tusk::ditto:
https://pokepast.es/46a0bae5e238a594
in order to prove my points, i decided to use some fat balance for my 30-0 suspect test run. it would be hypocritical if i used offense and said walking wake was fine, wouldn't it? gastrodon is very good in my opinion. the shit got spikes this generation which means it's not as passive as you think despite losing scald and toxic. and unlike clodsire, it can actually kill great tusk with surf which is big. the gastrodon on this team is forced to run clear smog (hatterene 6-0's otherwise) but i can see this thing doing even more work on different team compositions as earth power is a nice secondary stab for exerting pressure. garganacl is my fairy-type and stealth rock user of choice to complete the hazard core and force walking wake into uncomfortable situations when it comes to picking between hydro steam and draco meteor. curse > protect in order to bypass certain substitute users. iron moth is my np gholdengo check, while also checking skeledirge and volcarona with acid spray. corviknight and great tusk complete the defensive backbone to blanket check a lot of attackers (mainly great tusk and kingambit) while providing hazard control simultaneously. ditto is used last for flexibility vs cheese + set up 'mons that get out of control since the squad has no unaware users

____
now allow me to address the entire :walking wake:
tera-dragon +SpA protosynthesis modest specs argument. i had a scary encounter with this set yesterday and it did some insane shit like 82% to my physically defensive corviknight and basically being an auto-kill button vs my fat balance. AND I STILL HAD OUTS VS IT. i played him a couple games afterwards too and i came to the realization his team was just a shitty match-up fish squad as all i did with a different team the 2nd game was bring in chomp and claim a kill every time x button

i don't find these types of sets to be a good indicator on whether walking wake is broken or not as they are only good in specific mu's and and a complete liability in others. great tusk can do the same shit with cb adamant +atk protosynthesis tera-ground headlong rush. should we ban that too? the calc's say otherwise don't it? take a look at this replay as well. should we ban iron valiant? all i did was set-up terrain then come in with +SpA quark drive modest specs tera-fairy moonblast and invalidated this guy's entire balance team! broken!

i find walking wake extremely tame compared to :volcarona::garganacl: volcarona and garganacl. it's only been a week since walking wake has been released and players are refusing to adapt which i find to be a big problem. we gave pussy garg 5 fuckin' months and there still hasn't been any tiering action despite the last survey saying otherwise. running hyper-specific cloak 'mons and tech'ing substitute on everything is healthy, right guys? cloak toxapex, cloak amoonguss, cloak corv etc. are dogshit; you're using it as a meowscarada, iron valiant, and great tusk knock off switch-in too! not to mention the whole substitute thing can be counter-acted by curse sets lol

but you know what? let's ignore that because apparently walking mid is some flutter mane level threat that needs immediate tiering action! fuck outta here man, it's only been 6 days. i'm voting do not ban, you guys are all soft as fuck
This is what I have been thinking while playing with and against WW, it is a strong mon, IN SUN, but outside it is mediocre even in rain where it should be good in theory, but in pratice the lack of a speed boosting ability in rain makes hard to justify using it. Even with specs hurricane doesn't hit hard enough water inmunities.
The sun dependence is an issue for it because unlike other proto users, the difference is very notable when the sun isn't up for both, speed and attack, forcing it to switch up and WW particularly hates being forced out because it really doesn't switches into many things, especially if hazards are up while the need of removing hazards also takes away sun turns and reduces sun's team momentum.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tera-type-index.3716401/
As Vert mentions, we can't pretend WW is forcing stuff like tera types just to beat it like Garg does force a lot of mons to use convert cloak, tera fairy and water have the most used tera types since the start of gen 9, tera fairy Rotom was seen several times in last week SPL games even if WW wasn't allowed for example. WW being checked by the most common tera types is also something to keep in mind.
I still can change my opinion before I get reqs, but for the moment I really can't see how it is considered restrictive when counterplay does exist and is kinda common.
 
I think what makes a mon broken within a meta comes down to 2 things:

A. How much reasonable offensive and defensive counter play does it have?

In Wake’s case, it is quite limited defensively. Offense has the tools to force it out, but not switch in.

B. To what degree can the mon circumvent its counterplay?

As to this second question, may I present this set:

Walking Wake @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Steam / Hydro Pump
- Flamethrower / Dragon Pulse
- Hurricane
- Substitute

This set messes with offense, it’s defensive checks and obviously works best on rain to boost the water STAB and lack of Specs as well as help Hurricane’s accuracy.

I ask you, what are Clod and Gastrodon doing to this guy besides asking him nicely to come out from his Sub? Azurmarril similarly is not going to appreciate STAB boosted Hurricanes. Then factor in that confusion chance, ugh.

So yeah, Wake is pretty dumb if it can invalidate it’s own counterplay like this.

Food for thought as you vote.
 
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During the process of getting reqs I’ve sligthly changed my opinion of Suicune Erectus. It ended up being stronger than what I anticipated, nonetheless I don’t think it deserves ban, therefore I will vote no ban.

There are multiple arguments why I think this Pokémon, even with this limited dex, can be managed:

Argument 1: “Few but very good counters”

As stated by other users Walking Wake has some good pokémons that I would define as counters without too many issues. For the sake of simplicity I will just mention the ones that were OU to begin with to prevent the argument “you are using UU/RU mons to check WW cause it’s broken”. No, all these mons were legit good OU picks prior to WW. Now they just significantly rose in usage since WW, even if imo not ban worthy, is an extremely good mon that one must build for:

:clodsire: This salamander just Walls WW. One could make the argument that now clod runs water absorb instead of unaware cause of WW, therefore WW is broken. I think this argument is not valid as:

  • Even if rarely Clod already used to run water absorb. It is a great tool as you are completely immune to rotom, one of the most popular OU picks. It also provides great value against rain teams and the occasional specs pelliper (That pelican legit destroyed my team when I used to run unaware clod). A lot of times I found myself in the situation where I was thinking “wow being water absorb now would be so useful”.
  • Now everybody runs WW because it’s the new thing and it’s popular because the mon is legit good. Eventually it’s usage will drop from the current 80%. Now the choice between absorb and unaware clod is obviously biased towards absorb, when the usage of WW will naturally decrease I think that we will see both variants being played.
  • I would also point out that since Absorb Clod is very good on it’s own there is litearlly nothing wrong to run absorb to counter Wake. The fact that Wake influences team building decision is not necessarily a bad thing, it just means that it’s a good mon that one must prepare for.
:Toxapex: I have to be honest, I was not a beliver of gen 9 pex. When I learned that it lost both knock off and scald I was legit thinking that this would fall to RU. Obviously this prediction was part of the top 10 worst predictions ever by Vigilante, even worse than my Ting Lu UU prediction because it didn’t have recovery. Pex is still a great mon with a solid place on the metagame, and specially defensive pex just walls WW period. It also has regenerator on top of recover, making the process of wearing it down extremely hard. Wake best attempt is to tera dragon draco meteor and even that doesn’t come close to OKHO with specs. Meaning that pex will just regenerate the damage off a way or another.

:Garganacl:
this is not a Pokémon, this is a tera Pokémon. Why I’m putting it on the list? Well If one use Garg It will most likely use tera on it as garg is probably the best user of this new mechanic in gen 9 OU. In particular, in my personal opinion, tera water was absolutely the best tera of garganacl even before WW addition as it helps garg to deal with his greatest nemesis: Gholdengo. The Options on garg are tera fairy and tera water, now tera water will rise but again it was already very good even before WW. With lefties + protect + leftovers Garg will wall without too many issues specs Walking Wake, and salt cure + the chips of stealth rocks coming from garg himself will easily deal with Paldean Suicune, wearing it down extremely fast.

These were only the OU picks, there are other mons that proved to be great against WW like Slowking (that could very well rise in OU if wake stays, Slowking is a great pivotter that has good synergy with bax) but I will stop there.

In short there is material to build with, It’s very difficult that your team doesn’t have at least 1 of those mons that I previously mentioned. I Therefore don’t feel “the oppression” Wake produces as I essentially always used to run at least one of these picks, if these were niche mons I could understand, but they really aren’t.


Argument 2 “sun is good, but has an incredibly high opportunity cost + Hydro steam sounds broken, but it really isn’t


I think that Walking Wake just made viable what was previously an unviable playstyle that was as such for good reasons. This archetype now has a great new tool, but it still brings with itself the weaknesses it previou0sly had, those are not cancelled by Walking Wake. What are those weaknesses?
  • Obviously you are reducing your options in the team builder. You have to run :Torkoal: (and yes you are forced to run it, I even tried sunny day iron moth and couldn’t got over 1650 elo) that isn’t a great Pokémon by itself. This is the most evident limitation, but running sun makes so that you need to have a team with a certain predefined composition (I would say that things like hat are also somewhat mandatory). This makes so that you are very matchup reliant with sun, you def have huge weaknesses that are hard to avoid.

  • you boost your enemies. More specifically I was using the week before WW introduction scarf Tusk and oh boi how great this mon is. I think it is probably one of the most underrated sets ever, and when I see sun teams my scarf great tusk is ready to Headlong rush the soul out of anything in its path. With sun provided by opponent team it becomes an unstoppable force as you get a free life orb and sun teams usually have little to no ground resist/immune pokémons (this is due to the limitations of point 1). Tera ground Scarf Tusk just steam rolls most sun teams. Additionally roaring moon is another very good mon that, if opponent runs sun, just gets a boost for free. This is not a simple minor occurrence, Tusk has 57% usage an roaring is also a very used mon.
Suicune Erectus essentially gets a speed boost + a stronger STAB move with sun, which is something that the experienced pokémon showdown player are used to see. Basically, all teams based on weather have a couple pokémons that get this kind of benefit. WW is also not particularly impressive in that regard: differently from most weather abusers just one move is boosted: Hydro steam. This means that Wake cannot run any other type of water move, just hydro steam. This move basically has 120 base power with sun, it becomes a slightly stronger no accuracy check hydropump. Yes a 120 base power STAB with no accuracy check is great, but this is not free by any means. Outside of sun it is a 80 base power move with no secondary effect, that’s mediocre at best. This move is very consistent, I would say that if anything else it is very good because it increases the matchups where WW can shine, but actually running sun with it is not necessarily the best thing to do. I think that the main pro of Hydro steam is that you are guaranteed that the move will never be nerfed, but I wouldn’t say that the good old regular weather 1.5 boost is something to scream about.


Walking Wake is still incredible in sun, don’t get me wrong, but imo it just makes it a viable playstyle. If Sun was already good prior to Wake I could consider it as a valid argument for banning it, but sun was simply terrible. Now it is able to stay afloat.

Note: another important thing is that Sun essentially doesn’t increase by a single bit Wake Breaking capabilities, just the sweeping ones. Clodsire, Pex and Garganacl don’t care if wake get’s +1 speed thanks to sun nor care if water steam does a 50% more as the damage is still negligible. I never seen specs + protosynthesis special attack sun Wakes, I’m sure somebody will try this out, but if you do that wake stays at 109 speed, this way it is very weak to revenge killing. All weather abusers in the history of competitive mon use it more for speed than power and this happens for good reasons.

In my requirements run I struggled much more with teams that had Wake in a regular well crafted team compared to the sun based ones. With that I’m not saying you can’t find success with Wake using sun, I would say that sun right now is pretty good. But it really ends here, it has too many weaknesses to be defined as anything more than that.

Argument 3Walking Wake is very easy to predict, it essentially has 1 set”

Walking Wake has a very clear limitation: it literally has no kind of set up moves. Considering that it’s power compared to previously banned mons like Chi-yu and chien pao is significantly lower it pretty much needs one and only one item: Specs. Really, I’ve seen every kind of WW as people are obviously exploring this new pokémon trying out different options. For real: Walking Wake requires specs. I’ve seen strange sub/lefties set or even scarf variants but those simply are not able to do any meaningful damage.

The most common alternative to specs is booster energy/life orb agility and honestly I don’t think it’s good for 2 reasons:

  • You need either booster energy/life orb and those still are not comparable in damage to specs. The difference between 30% and 50% is very significant.
  • WW best move is draco meteor and since it harshly lowers your special attack stat it simply isn’t suited for this kind of set. This leaves you with hydrosteam/pump + dragon pulse + flamethrower.
Combining these 2 factors WW does literally no damage with this set. Literally about half compared to specs variant. Not to talk about the incredibly bad drawbacks these 2 items provide: 10% chip or lose your boost permanently on the switch (you basically will not be able to do anything for the rest of the game if not to pick up kos on very weakened slower mons).

In short Wake is just going to be specs like 90% of the times, making it one of the most predictable pokémons and thus much easier to deal with. If it had different options I could see it as being too much, but once you see it in team preview it’s hard that it will be able to surprise you in any way.


Argument 4Walking Wake is very easy to wear down”

The fact that walking wake NEEDS to run specs because of point 3 makes so that it will not run Heavy Duty boosts and wake is literally weak to every single hazard in the game, and hazards probably have never been as good as in gen 9 thanks to Gholdengo and great hazarders like Glimmora, Chomp and Ting Lu. Wearing it down will be very easy. Additionally WW is weak to every form of status, it may sound dumb/irrelevant but I got in my 42 games on the ladder so much chip damage from burns on Wake, making it much easier to revenge kill.

Argument 5Walking Wake is fairly easy to revenge kill”

I placed this argument last as I think it is the least relevant one, nonetheless I think it desserves to be mentioned. Walking Wake has a great defensive typing and what I would call very decent speed tier and bulk. nonetheless in gen 9 OU the pool of pokémons that will outspeed and kill/significantly damage it is relevant. I will divide them by category:

Pokémons that outspeed it in sun and also OKHO: :Iron Valiant:scarf/proto :Roaring Moon:

Pokémons that outspeed and OKHO: :Dragapult: :Roaring Moon:

Pokémons that will outspeed and do about 80%: band :Meowscarada: scarf :Great Tusk: :Iron Moth: priority users :Kingambit: band :Dragonite:

These are all great highly used mons that for sure are able to threaten out WW fairly easily. This point is obviously related to the previous one, since it's so hard to keep WW at high health the revenge killing is also going to be easier.


Don't get me wrong, Suicune erectus is a great mon and I see it becoming S- tier if it happens to stay in gen 9 OU. Nonetheless i really don't think it is restricting to the point of desserving a ban as, differently from mons that actually got banned, it has a number of weak points that cannot be overlooked. In the end it's a 125 Special att 109 speed pokémon that can boost this relatively mediocre set of stats, but these boosts come at a price.
 
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Walking Wake is very comparable to Darm-G
Darm-G has a worse typing, worse bulk, worse speed tier, is physical with 140 attack, only has ice STAB, got banned to Ubers
Walking Wake is better bulk, faster, special with 120 sp.atk, dual STAB is very powerful
"Oh but Darm-G's ability gives it a free choice band"
Walking Wake's ability in sun gives it a free choice scarf without the choiced limitation, just slap on a choice specs and call it a day
"Oh but Darm-G can run Band with GT"
Does Darm-G have tera dragon Draco Meteor with Protosynthesis SpA boost + choice specs? Exactly
"Darm-G has more coverage!"
tera blast

Yeah if Darm-G was banned in gen 8, and this tier has a similar power level to early gen 8, Walking Wake definitely should be banned
I might get reqs if I can stop being a god-damn idiot and obtain a viable team to use

EDIT: Darm-G is still banned in late gen-8 with a FAR higher power level, so my point still stands
 
Walking Wake is very comparable to Darm-G
Darm-G has a worse typing, worse bulk, worse speed tier, is physical with 140 attack, only has ice STAB, got banned to Ubers
Walking Wake is better bulk, faster, special with 120 sp.atk, dual STAB is very powerful
"Oh but Darm-G's ability gives it a free choice band"
Walking Wake's ability in sun gives it a free choice scarf without the choiced limitation, just slap on a choice specs and call it a day
"Oh but Darm-G can run Band with GT"
Does Darm-G have tera dragon Draco Meteor with Protosynthesis SpA boost + choice specs? Exactly
"Darm-G has more coverage!"
tera blast

Yeah if Darm-G was banned in gen 8, and this tier has a similar power level to early gen 8, Walking Wake definitely should be banned
I might get reqs if I can stop being a god-damn idiot and obtain a viable team to use

EDIT: Darm-G is still banned in late gen-8 with a FAR higher power level, so my point still stands
sorry but that "free scarf" is not free. Sun is not something that naturally comes on the field. G darm had free choice band, the "free" choice scarf WW is supposed to have is not free by any means. Really it's like saying Barraskewda is broken because in rain it is twice as fast as mega rayquaza hitting almost as hard. Oh and terablast is different from coverage. In one case you already have the move with the desired typing (G darm) in the other you have to use your one per game special transformation to give the needed coverage to a pokémon, those are not equivalent.
 
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I will not make the reqs, but I will make one suggestion.

Block Gargnacl.

Block Torcoal lead, trade rocks, and kill it with salt cure. If it is a Bpress set, recover any damage taken.

Without its precious sun, Walking Wake is massively hindered, and it gets hard checked by Water Absorb Clodsire.

However, the fact that I have to run a niche set that sometimes (often) does not work and I rely on Clodire to check this monster is insane.

If I could, I would vote BAN.
 
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