what's funny about the stall mons that check Walking wake is that no one mentions the mons that usually partnered with wake that counters those same checks... clodsire and toxapex get deleted by Great tusk...then what? gastradon gets caught lacking by the giga drain volcarona then what?? you tera water garg cool but most sun teams have a tera grass or wake is going hard draco....so what?... i troll too much on rank so i'll never get reqs but if i had to i will say ban until pokemon home patch comes lol
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Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Sleepwalking
- Thread starter Finchinator
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Under that logic even Pikachu is an AG level threat, just like Wake has teamates to beat its checks, a defensive team wouldn't have just one wall to check everything defensively. But even then there is another issue with that argument and it is that Wake's teams must have a similar structure because it needs sun, so it makes it kinda easier to plan your strategy during the match because there aren't much variations on sun, unlike Chi-Yu or Pao that could be used on almost every team and work.
I support ban on wake.
Frankly I can't say much more than what has been said already, but wake is just too much to handle right now. It'll be interesting when the pool expands more, and I'd love to see some of the future additions in the sunlight(tera fire victreebel let me dream), but wake brings sun to a whole new level of brokenness.
It isn't just sun 'teams', you simply run torkoal + wake and then wake puts in all the work, you can run pretty much anything else with the pair but wake is just that overtuned with its signature move in sun that it stomps the meta. As much as seeing sun be viable to the point of meta brings joy to me, its really not 'sun' as a playstyle that's viable its specifically this core of sun+wake and, despite the tier having a lot of sun beneficiaries, nothing else really helping it stand out as a playstyle you just run what supports wake and it can handle itself even without that support. Great tusk is a nice support for sun teams but its not the main problem of these new wake cores.
Frankly I can't say much more than what has been said already, but wake is just too much to handle right now. It'll be interesting when the pool expands more, and I'd love to see some of the future additions in the sunlight
It isn't just sun 'teams', you simply run torkoal + wake and then wake puts in all the work, you can run pretty much anything else with the pair but wake is just that overtuned with its signature move in sun that it stomps the meta. As much as seeing sun be viable to the point of meta brings joy to me, its really not 'sun' as a playstyle that's viable its specifically this core of sun+wake and, despite the tier having a lot of sun beneficiaries, nothing else really helping it stand out as a playstyle you just run what supports wake and it can handle itself even without that support. Great tusk is a nice support for sun teams but its not the main problem of these new wake cores.
Wake doesn't NEED sun, it just makes it so much better than it is to start. The Mon is a great natural Mon on its own, but sun makes it a seriously dangerous and polarizing pokemon to handle.
Which sort of brings me to my own thoughts about the Mon. Out of sun, it's a very nice but not broken threat. But sun pushes if way over the line for the current metagame. Not only is defensive counterplay limited, but the kind of defensive counterplay that exists is either too specific or passive. Clod itself still wants a back up check or tera fairy to feel secure, while stuff such as Toxapex and Garganacl require back up checks as they take too much from specs meteor. There have been suggestions like spdef Regen+fairy cores to check it, which technically works... But then you look at the list of options for fairies. A frail offensive threat, Hatterene, and that's it for relevant options. Azu with AV works but the Mon itself isn't that good generally, and the only other bulky option is a passive blob in scream tail who is fringe at best. So for bulky teams, options that aren't extra passive and aren't gimmicky, niche or fringe are rare. Yes, offense has more available counterplay and doesn't have as hard a time with it. No that doesn't necessarily make it balanced.
I also find it odd that there has been attempts to downplay or dismiss the idea of spatk proto sun Wake, citing the disadvantageous offense match up when sun already packs anti offense options to cover for that match up and it's not like Wake is slow. It's still fast enough to threaten some common mons on those teams. Lily pointed this out, but specs proto Wake invalidates the main cast of suggested defensive play without even needing to burn tera, all with just rocks. And considering tera, both main stabs tera'd make it especially ridiculous (and as pointed out, tera fire is also incredibly strong).
You say that Walking Wake is still a dangerous mon outside of sun teams but I'm curious what teammates benefit him when it isn't sun?
I plan to try to get my vote in and vote No to banning WW.
Quickly, I want mention I have been spamming WW on sun teams running a life orb set.
Team can be found here: https://pokepast.es/30654831f9c7c15f
imo WW is best on sun teams, then rain teams it seems fairly medicore, then borderline worthless on any other team. With weather being the main culprits its important to remember the current weaknesses of the teams that run Sun or Rain. I mostly want to bring this up because I have seen few adjustments to deal with the weather on ladder.
1. Sand- Not just for WW but sun teams as a whole right now have some trouble dealing with Hippowdon and Tyranitar. Chip damage is key. Generally these two are great at taking down either the physical or special side of teams and allows for some chunky defensive cores that you wouldn't normally see. The only issue is Great Tusk who imo is not very good on Sun teams but does like to go against it. Great Tusk has single handedly been the hardest part of running a sun team to where I am running multiple pokemon to try to stop it where one is WW and the other is Energy Ball tera grass Glimmora.
2. Rocks - Stealth rocks are a general annoyance Torkoal as it has 3 options either a run Heavy Duty Boots, have some type of sustain in the team via something like Wish Scream Tail, or bring another spinner. All of these options in short suck for sun as you are either killing your time to run potent offense before considering what is on the field and what needs to be swapped or giving up a lot for something that is not going deal much damage and instead hopes to set up a healthy and somewhat obvious swap.
3. Priority and Walls- Finally the specific counter to Walking Wake in many cases seems to be priority seems to be priority due to its horrendous defense, this becomes a gamble to some degree if tera has not been used but regardless if Walking Wake is already out there are few good switch ins but I feel that ways is true for most strong OU picks like Roaring Moon, Glimmora to some degree, Dragapult, and Gholdengo just to name a few. The question then becomes what can effectively deal with these mons which in most cases is some walls like Garganacl, Clodsire, Corviknight, or Great Tusk where WW shares some annoying matchups vs water absorb Clodsire, Ting-Lu, and Rotom-W depending on WW's tera. With the added bonus of getting absolutely destroyed by any offensive mon that has a minor setup or banded. Things like Dragon Dance E-Speed Dragonnite, banded First Impression Slitherwing, and Sucker Punch Kingsgambit all give WW trouble when fighting 1 on 1.
I think between the issues of the teams WW needs to be on (Sun and Rain primarily) and there being reasonable checks even when WW is in its optimal conditions there is no need to be banned yet. For the time being I ask other players to look into more of these checks and consider full switching to fighting in the weather wars or adding mons to their team that can work around the weather. I also think its a bit too early to vote on this ban entirely as the community has not gotten even 2 weeks to try and let the "new pokemon" hype die down some before starting a suspect test. If WW makes it through this I hope that after another month, given the community is still unsure, we give this another look rather than full committing to this ban now.
Quickly, I want mention I have been spamming WW on sun teams running a life orb set.
Team can be found here: https://pokepast.es/30654831f9c7c15f
Torkoal is here to set sun obviously and get out. This dying earlier means game in many cases.
Walking Wake for trying to clean up teams or take out some physical walls when given a clean switch or via u-turn and wish.
Scream Tail is the support to cripple walls the team generally struggles with like Clodsire, healing with wish, and taking hits for the team as there is no proper wall or pivot besides itself.
Roaring Moon is here to clean up late game or whenever a physical wall has been put out of commission generally with some uses to put out chip damage while Sun is up.
Glimmora is the dedicated lead to knock out most other leads early or at least threaten poison and heavy damage out the gate, surprisingly the best answer to it so far has been focus sash Greninja or Glimmora.
Finally the closest thing to a wild card in Slither Wing, the dedicated wall breaker, between band and the sun most walls will crumble to be OHKO by Slither Wing before tera. For bonus utility it has First Impression for revenge killing or U-Turn to pivot out of a incoming wall that can not be dealt with.
Walking Wake for trying to clean up teams or take out some physical walls when given a clean switch or via u-turn and wish.
Scream Tail is the support to cripple walls the team generally struggles with like Clodsire, healing with wish, and taking hits for the team as there is no proper wall or pivot besides itself.
Roaring Moon is here to clean up late game or whenever a physical wall has been put out of commission generally with some uses to put out chip damage while Sun is up.
Glimmora is the dedicated lead to knock out most other leads early or at least threaten poison and heavy damage out the gate, surprisingly the best answer to it so far has been focus sash Greninja or Glimmora.
Finally the closest thing to a wild card in Slither Wing, the dedicated wall breaker, between band and the sun most walls will crumble to be OHKO by Slither Wing before tera. For bonus utility it has First Impression for revenge killing or U-Turn to pivot out of a incoming wall that can not be dealt with.
imo WW is best on sun teams, then rain teams it seems fairly medicore, then borderline worthless on any other team. With weather being the main culprits its important to remember the current weaknesses of the teams that run Sun or Rain. I mostly want to bring this up because I have seen few adjustments to deal with the weather on ladder.
1. Sand- Not just for WW but sun teams as a whole right now have some trouble dealing with Hippowdon and Tyranitar. Chip damage is key. Generally these two are great at taking down either the physical or special side of teams and allows for some chunky defensive cores that you wouldn't normally see. The only issue is Great Tusk who imo is not very good on Sun teams but does like to go against it. Great Tusk has single handedly been the hardest part of running a sun team to where I am running multiple pokemon to try to stop it where one is WW and the other is Energy Ball tera grass Glimmora.
2. Rocks - Stealth rocks are a general annoyance Torkoal as it has 3 options either a run Heavy Duty Boots, have some type of sustain in the team via something like Wish Scream Tail, or bring another spinner. All of these options in short suck for sun as you are either killing your time to run potent offense before considering what is on the field and what needs to be swapped or giving up a lot for something that is not going deal much damage and instead hopes to set up a healthy and somewhat obvious swap.
3. Priority and Walls- Finally the specific counter to Walking Wake in many cases seems to be priority seems to be priority due to its horrendous defense, this becomes a gamble to some degree if tera has not been used but regardless if Walking Wake is already out there are few good switch ins but I feel that ways is true for most strong OU picks like Roaring Moon, Glimmora to some degree, Dragapult, and Gholdengo just to name a few. The question then becomes what can effectively deal with these mons which in most cases is some walls like Garganacl, Clodsire, Corviknight, or Great Tusk where WW shares some annoying matchups vs water absorb Clodsire, Ting-Lu, and Rotom-W depending on WW's tera. With the added bonus of getting absolutely destroyed by any offensive mon that has a minor setup or banded. Things like Dragon Dance E-Speed Dragonnite, banded First Impression Slitherwing, and Sucker Punch Kingsgambit all give WW trouble when fighting 1 on 1.
I think between the issues of the teams WW needs to be on (Sun and Rain primarily) and there being reasonable checks even when WW is in its optimal conditions there is no need to be banned yet. For the time being I ask other players to look into more of these checks and consider full switching to fighting in the weather wars or adding mons to their team that can work around the weather. I also think its a bit too early to vote on this ban entirely as the community has not gotten even 2 weeks to try and let the "new pokemon" hype die down some before starting a suspect test. If WW makes it through this I hope that after another month, given the community is still unsure, we give this another look rather than full committing to this ban now.
Walking Wake has horrendous defense? Really? Since when 99/91/83 bulk is horrendous?
I would say so in the current metagame, Walking Wake generally is getting OHKO against neutral hits in my experiences.
None of these arguments really hold up because WW and Darm-G aren't similar Pokemon. Darm was overkill. There was no opportunity cost to running it on your team. It required minimal team support and in most cases really didn't need amazing prediction either to just blow apart the opposing team. WW is a more well rounded threat. It can work on a number of team varieties though obviously it's the way it abuses and enables sun strategies that tips it over the edge. You can't make 1:1 comparisons across different Pokemon/generations.
I don't know if you're running 0 Defense IVs on Wake or not, but that is solid enough bulk in this tier. Even if it's not a tank, it can easily OHKO threats after taking a hit, even if it is outsped:
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 156-184 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 46.1% chance to 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 306-362 (97.1 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 8 HP / 4 Def Walking Wake: 276-325 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk in Sun: 1230-1448 (331.5 - 390.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 192-226 (56.3 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Moth: 348-410 (115.6 - 136.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 8 HP / 4 Def Walking Wake: 279-328 (81.8 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Flamethrower vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 326-384 (88.3 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Even for the Pokemon that can OHKO Wake, almost nothing wants to come in on it, and those that can are quite passive, like Clodsire.
Speaking of Clodsire, Tera Fairy Clodsire isn't as solid of a check as it once was thanks to the rise of Tera Steel Wake. While Wake doesn't appreciate getting EQ'd while Terastallized, it can still eat an Earthquake while making itself immune to Toxic and 2HKOing back with Tera Blast.
0 Atk Tera Fairy Clodsire Earthquake vs. 8 HP / 4 Def Tera Steel Walking Wake: 186-218 (54.5 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Steel Walking Wake Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Clodsire: 272-324 (58.7 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
While Terastallization is a whole other can of worms that needs to be addressed, Wake is undeniably extremely constraining on teambuilding with or without the mechanic. It has single-handedly turned Sun from a niche playstyle to the king of SV OU, and outside of Clodsire and niche mons like AV Azumarill it has basically no switch-ins. Definitely voting Ban (if i get reqs lol)
Got reqs day 1 like a boss, been doing a lot of work but just wanted to throw my 2 cents in as a council member.
First and foremost, I wanted to address my vote; I voted to suspect Walking Wake instead of quickban it. As Togkey said concisely, a lot of its brokenness comes because of the Sun playstyle, which is one that was and is still rapidly developing with Walking Wake as such a godly asset for it. My thought process was that I wanted to see the full potential of Walking Wake on Sun before taking action, as it was, at the time, a fresh addition to the tier that had a very unique angle on a Sun abuser. I also found that its brokenness was very contingent on Sun being active. It really wants the power it gets from Sun to juice its Flamethrower and Hydro Steam proper, as well as reap the benefits of Protosynthesis (SpA or Speed interchangeably). Booster Energy sets are middling to me, and phasing sets are super fun and take advantage of its counterplay, but you lose a lot of the oomph that makes Walking Wake so scary, unless ofc you put it back in the Sun.
___
However, this being said, in spite of these limitations, Walking Wake in the Sun is a genuinely asinine Pokemon that is not reasonable to keep in the tier at its current power level. It is true that both offensive and defensive counterplay exist, you can pivot around it, and a good reactive Tera can spell its doom, and before my suspect run I was optimistic. However, for my suspect run I gave Sub + 3 Attacks a shot on a modified version of Vert's Sun, and I changed my mind fast.
Walking Wake @ Expert Belt
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy / Water
EVs: 12 HP / 244 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Pulse
- Hydro Steam
- Flamethrower
- Substitute
Expert Belt grants Walking Wake with just enough power under the Sun to secure OHKOs into Corviknight, Kingambit, Gholdengo, Amoonguss, and Roaring Moon with just these three moves alone. With Substitute to remove prediction/scout for reactive Teras and Tera Fairy to tech Infiltrator Dragapult/other WW, Walking Wake completely shuts down most things offense can throw at it, save for a few niche matchups. This raises the biggest issue I have with Walking Wake as an abuser of Sun: its offensive autonomy. It's extremely easy for it to throw on Tera Blast, experiment with Tera/its item slot, and you can easily make room to seamlessly shut down your counterplay while still posing an innate threat.
In a lower power level format as we have now before Home drops, Walking Wake denies offense and warps reactive options far too much while still having a good amount of room to tech its existing defensive counterplay. I will definitely vote to free it in the later stages of the metagame, but for right now it shouldn't be here.
First and foremost, I wanted to address my vote; I voted to suspect Walking Wake instead of quickban it. As Togkey said concisely, a lot of its brokenness comes because of the Sun playstyle, which is one that was and is still rapidly developing with Walking Wake as such a godly asset for it. My thought process was that I wanted to see the full potential of Walking Wake on Sun before taking action, as it was, at the time, a fresh addition to the tier that had a very unique angle on a Sun abuser. I also found that its brokenness was very contingent on Sun being active. It really wants the power it gets from Sun to juice its Flamethrower and Hydro Steam proper, as well as reap the benefits of Protosynthesis (SpA or Speed interchangeably). Booster Energy sets are middling to me, and phasing sets are super fun and take advantage of its counterplay, but you lose a lot of the oomph that makes Walking Wake so scary, unless ofc you put it back in the Sun.
___
However, this being said, in spite of these limitations, Walking Wake in the Sun is a genuinely asinine Pokemon that is not reasonable to keep in the tier at its current power level. It is true that both offensive and defensive counterplay exist, you can pivot around it, and a good reactive Tera can spell its doom, and before my suspect run I was optimistic. However, for my suspect run I gave Sub + 3 Attacks a shot on a modified version of Vert's Sun, and I changed my mind fast.
Walking Wake @ Expert Belt
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy / Water
EVs: 12 HP / 244 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Pulse
- Hydro Steam
- Flamethrower
- Substitute
Expert Belt grants Walking Wake with just enough power under the Sun to secure OHKOs into Corviknight, Kingambit, Gholdengo, Amoonguss, and Roaring Moon with just these three moves alone. With Substitute to remove prediction/scout for reactive Teras and Tera Fairy to tech Infiltrator Dragapult/other WW, Walking Wake completely shuts down most things offense can throw at it, save for a few niche matchups. This raises the biggest issue I have with Walking Wake as an abuser of Sun: its offensive autonomy. It's extremely easy for it to throw on Tera Blast, experiment with Tera/its item slot, and you can easily make room to seamlessly shut down your counterplay while still posing an innate threat.
In a lower power level format as we have now before Home drops, Walking Wake denies offense and warps reactive options far too much while still having a good amount of room to tech its existing defensive counterplay. I will definitely vote to free it in the later stages of the metagame, but for right now it shouldn't be here.
I just got suspect recs recently and I think I'm a little on the fence..... but I'm leaning towards Ban
For me the main problem is the proto-specs set that boosts speed. However, I do think the modest Proto-specs is strong but it's just that you have to consider both of these sets when playing/ building which can be a massive pain in the ass.
(not to mention the modest proto-scarf set)
Walking Wake @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water/dragon
EVs: 12 Def / 244 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Steam
other sets
Walking Wake @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water/dragon
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Steam
Walking Wake @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water/dragon
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Steam
For offensive teams the proto-specs sets melt them + outspeed most of them and it does a shit ton of damage to neutral targets since it's a water move that gets booted by sun which is fucking insane. not only that it has the bulk and the power to eat most neutral hits and fires off massive damage. I mean the best option for offense is to limit sun (torkoal) itself since it's so hard to play around it. I found it nearly impossible to run a normal offensive structure with this asshole outspeeding and dusting past all of its "checks" in sun.
The only true offensive counter play lies in sacking and getting in your B-energy/scarf Valiant or sun proto Roaring Moon. If you can't manage to handle torkoal in the early game. Which essentially means you're forced to run hyper-offensive builds or very aggressive Offense to outpace the blazing-fast sun structures if your team doesn't have the limited pool of pokemon that can actually outspeed it.
Now let's take a look at common defensive "counters"
-> gets blown to shreds by tera dragon draco if it isn't tera fairy, If garg is tera water....... LMAO
-> forced to run water absorb with tera fairy -> however it's almost guaranteed to be 2hko by terafire flamethrower
-> gets 2hko by draco meteor.
-> actually a counter...... however, it's relegated to hardcore stall and it's not splash-able like it used to be in gen 8.
ANNDD that's about it for consistent defensive counterplay. Yes, pivoting exists and one can have counterplay against it. But it strains one's overall playstyle a bit too much. running things like bulky offense or regular balance is really hard with this pokemon since 1 double can jeopardize your whole team.
However, I really do want to emphasize that you can pivot around it with a bulky fairy + water resist core. But it's stupefyingly annoying.
TL;DR is way too fast for most offense and hits too hard for most defense and it puts the metagame in a weird spot where if one wants to run offense they're practically relegated to running HO or aggressive offensive builds. If not then the bulky team is forced to run specific counters that are flawed in their own right. But can be played around through pivoting.
For me the main problem is the proto-specs set that boosts speed. However, I do think the modest Proto-specs is strong but it's just that you have to consider both of these sets when playing/ building which can be a massive pain in the ass.
(not to mention the modest proto-scarf set)
Walking Wake @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water/dragon
EVs: 12 Def / 244 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Steam
other sets
Walking Wake @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water/dragon
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Steam
Walking Wake @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water/dragon
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Steam
For offensive teams the proto-specs sets melt them + outspeed most of them and it does a shit ton of damage to neutral targets since it's a water move that gets booted by sun which is fucking insane. not only that it has the bulk and the power to eat most neutral hits and fires off massive damage. I mean the best option for offense is to limit sun (torkoal) itself since it's so hard to play around it. I found it nearly impossible to run a normal offensive structure with this asshole outspeeding and dusting past all of its "checks" in sun.
The only true offensive counter play lies in sacking and getting in your B-energy/scarf Valiant or sun proto Roaring Moon. If you can't manage to handle torkoal in the early game. Which essentially means you're forced to run hyper-offensive builds or very aggressive Offense to outpace the blazing-fast sun structures if your team doesn't have the limited pool of pokemon that can actually outspeed it.
Now let's take a look at common defensive "counters"
-> gets blown to shreds by tera dragon draco if it isn't tera fairy, If garg is tera water....... LMAO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Garganacl in Sun: 220-261 (54.4 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 316-374 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 316-374 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-> forced to run water absorb with tera fairy -> however it's almost guaranteed to be 2hko by terafire flamethrower
244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fire Walking Wake Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire in Sun: 229-271 (49.4 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
-> gets 2hko by draco meteor.
244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 278-328 (70.5 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-> actually a counter...... however, it's relegated to hardcore stall and it's not splash-able like it used to be in gen 8.ANNDD that's about it for consistent defensive counterplay. Yes, pivoting exists and one can have counterplay against it. But it strains one's overall playstyle a bit too much. running things like bulky offense or regular balance is really hard with this pokemon since 1 double can jeopardize your whole team.
However, I really do want to emphasize that you can pivot around it with a bulky fairy + water resist core. But it's stupefyingly annoying.
TL;DR is way too fast for most offense and hits too hard for most defense and it puts the metagame in a weird spot where if one wants to run offense they're practically relegated to running HO or aggressive offensive builds. If not then the bulky team is forced to run specific counters that are flawed in their own right. But can be played around through pivoting.
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God tier pfp I must say. However, that being said...Walking wake actually can live attacks and is faster than Pikachu, and Isn't reliant on an exclusive item.
Okay fair, but Walking Wake right now is a little bit much. Hopefully it will be more manageable when home drops.
I vote to ban it
To be perfectly honest, it doesn’t need sun to be a threat. If you don’t want to use it In sun, you can just use specs/scarf hydro pump (or hydro steam), draco meteor, and flamethrower, and using it’s forth move slot for whatever you want.
But in sun it has basically no counters. The counters that I feel like can actually wall it, are too few, the main ones being azumarill, and water absorb clodsire. When the counters are so few and specifically made for it, that’s when you know it’s broken beyond repair.
The other main weather setters aren’t that great into it either. Abomasnow, Torkoal, hippowdon, and Tyranitar just die to flamethrower and hydro steam/pump (well Tyranitar/hippowdon doesn’t straight die because sand removes sun removing proto boost if it was a factor and the boost to hydro steam also disappears and Tyranitar/hippowdon get a 50% boost to Sp.def in sand but what’s it going to do to walking wake anyway?) The other main weather setter is pelliper, and I think walking wake is a bit better, than pelliper.
Pokemon like ceruledge and great tusk were just straight up invalid after it’s release, and to my knowledge are barely seen.
It’s almost impossible to KO this Koraidon Suicune hybrid and it can not be stopped.
God Koraidon is going to be so broken if this thing get’s banned.
To be perfectly honest, it doesn’t need sun to be a threat. If you don’t want to use it In sun, you can just use specs/scarf hydro pump (or hydro steam), draco meteor, and flamethrower, and using it’s forth move slot for whatever you want.
But in sun it has basically no counters. The counters that I feel like can actually wall it, are too few, the main ones being azumarill, and water absorb clodsire. When the counters are so few and specifically made for it, that’s when you know it’s broken beyond repair.
The other main weather setters aren’t that great into it either. Abomasnow, Torkoal, hippowdon, and Tyranitar just die to flamethrower and hydro steam/pump (well Tyranitar/hippowdon doesn’t straight die because sand removes sun removing proto boost if it was a factor and the boost to hydro steam also disappears and Tyranitar/hippowdon get a 50% boost to Sp.def in sand but what’s it going to do to walking wake anyway?) The other main weather setter is pelliper, and I think walking wake is a bit better, than pelliper.
Pokemon like ceruledge and great tusk were just straight up invalid after it’s release, and to my knowledge are barely seen.
It’s almost impossible to KO this Koraidon Suicune hybrid and it can not be stopped.
yo...... are we playing the same tier? u barely see great tusks?
I'm unsure if I'll get reqs (I can write well, but I can't play well), but in the event that I do I'll 100% be voting to BAN Walking Wake.
Simply put, this thing warps teambuilding around it far too heavily in the metagame's current state and its counterplay is far too limited to very specific defensive profiles that are not universal in the slightest. Base 109 Speed is much, much faster than most of the metagame; as a reminder, there's only a small handful of mons between base 109 and Pult's incredible base 142 that includes the three Protean mons, Iron Moth, Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, and Hisuian Zoroark. Among those, every single one of them can be OHKOed by one of Walking Wake's STABs even if it opts to drop some SpA EVs to get the Speed boost from Protosynthesis, so some variants can and will run the 244 SpA spread specifically to outpace opposing offensive threats (which, as it seems, is pretty common at the moment). And again, it OHKOs them all with one of its STABs. The hard part is getting the STAB right (do you click Draco/DPulse on the Pult, or do you nail the Valiant with Hydro Steam?), and that's true of many Choice item users, but this thing doesn't need that much chip to make that Hydro Steam vaporize the offensive resist.
Now, yes, defensive counterplay exists and Walking Wake does admittedly have to tech into more situational options to handle them. Slowking doesn't enjoy repeated hits from it, but can handle it in a pinch, and Tera Fairy Water Absorb Clodsire only fears the rare Tera Fire Specs Flamethrower. That said, these aren't mons an offensive team can actually run, more often than not. Slowking isn't bad, but Tera Fairy Water Absorb Clodsire gives me extreme "Tera Steel Water Absorb Clodsire to wall Iron Bundle" vibes. That's not to say that Walking Wake is as ridiculous as Iron Bundle was (that power, those STABs, and that Speed tier will keep it amazing in fucking Ubers because of how good STAB Freeze-Dry is as a move), of course, but I roll my eyes every time I see someone mention "[Insert Tera Type Here] Clodsire completely walls [insert overbearing offensive threat here]." Clodsire is not a mon you can fit on most teams, and on the teams that do appreciate Clodsire's unique traits it's not going to be the de-facto Tera user of choice on said teams in most cases. And no, don't mention AV Azumarill: it gets worn down too easily and if it isn't AV it gets 2HKOed by Specs Tera Water Sun-boosted Hydro Steam anyway, and Band/Belly Drum are more useful IMO.
Walking Wake is the Jackass 2.5 to Dracovish's Jackass 2: it's not quite ludicrously powerful enough to be a full-blown sequel, but it's a whole lot of the same crazy stuff Dracovish did last gen. With Sun, Specs, Tera Water and Protosynthesis up this thing's Water STAB alone vaporizes mons it has no business handling, including 2HKOing Water resists after Rocks.
Simply put, I don't think the pre-HOME metagame is even remotely equipped to handle Specs Walking Wake alone, to say nothing of the uncommon Booster Energy or non-Choiced variants, at the moment. The metagame was in an almost objectively better state prior to its inclusion, and with Walking Wake's introduction we're finding that the tier is ill-equipped to handle Water-types with this level of power, as was the case with Iron Bundle and Palafin alike (again, these two were WAY BETTER than Walking Wake, but the point still stands). More importantly, changing the weather doesn't really work against Walking Wake because it's still a Water-type so it can still abuse Rain. Tyranitar's at its worst in Smogon history so Sand's terrible (oh, and TTar itself gets smoked by Wake's Water STAB), Slowking's the only Snow "setter" worth mentioning (you think Abomasnow's gonna handle Specs Flamethrower? LMAO), and Pelipper's Rain just buffs Hydro Scald anyway, so the only thing it denies is the Protosynthesis boost. And what opposing weather abusers handle Walking Wake? Floatzel and Barraskewda can't OHKO it but get obliterated in return, Snow doesn't really have noteworthy abusers, and the only Sand abuser worth writing home about right now is currently chilling in Ubers because it has a broken move. You can't change the weather against it or it punishes you HARD for doing so.
TL;DR: if I get reqs I'm voting BAN on Walking Wake. This early-gen OU metagame is not ready for it quite yet.
Simply put, this thing warps teambuilding around it far too heavily in the metagame's current state and its counterplay is far too limited to very specific defensive profiles that are not universal in the slightest. Base 109 Speed is much, much faster than most of the metagame; as a reminder, there's only a small handful of mons between base 109 and Pult's incredible base 142 that includes the three Protean mons, Iron Moth, Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, and Hisuian Zoroark. Among those, every single one of them can be OHKOed by one of Walking Wake's STABs even if it opts to drop some SpA EVs to get the Speed boost from Protosynthesis, so some variants can and will run the 244 SpA spread specifically to outpace opposing offensive threats (which, as it seems, is pretty common at the moment). And again, it OHKOs them all with one of its STABs. The hard part is getting the STAB right (do you click Draco/DPulse on the Pult, or do you nail the Valiant with Hydro Steam?), and that's true of many Choice item users, but this thing doesn't need that much chip to make that Hydro Steam vaporize the offensive resist.
Now, yes, defensive counterplay exists and Walking Wake does admittedly have to tech into more situational options to handle them. Slowking doesn't enjoy repeated hits from it, but can handle it in a pinch, and Tera Fairy Water Absorb Clodsire only fears the rare Tera Fire Specs Flamethrower. That said, these aren't mons an offensive team can actually run, more often than not. Slowking isn't bad, but Tera Fairy Water Absorb Clodsire gives me extreme "Tera Steel Water Absorb Clodsire to wall Iron Bundle" vibes. That's not to say that Walking Wake is as ridiculous as Iron Bundle was (that power, those STABs, and that Speed tier will keep it amazing in fucking Ubers because of how good STAB Freeze-Dry is as a move), of course, but I roll my eyes every time I see someone mention "[Insert Tera Type Here] Clodsire completely walls [insert overbearing offensive threat here]." Clodsire is not a mon you can fit on most teams, and on the teams that do appreciate Clodsire's unique traits it's not going to be the de-facto Tera user of choice on said teams in most cases. And no, don't mention AV Azumarill: it gets worn down too easily and if it isn't AV it gets 2HKOed by Specs Tera Water Sun-boosted Hydro Steam anyway, and Band/Belly Drum are more useful IMO.
Walking Wake is the Jackass 2.5 to Dracovish's Jackass 2: it's not quite ludicrously powerful enough to be a full-blown sequel, but it's a whole lot of the same crazy stuff Dracovish did last gen. With Sun, Specs, Tera Water and Protosynthesis up this thing's Water STAB alone vaporizes mons it has no business handling, including 2HKOing Water resists after Rocks.
Simply put, I don't think the pre-HOME metagame is even remotely equipped to handle Specs Walking Wake alone, to say nothing of the uncommon Booster Energy or non-Choiced variants, at the moment. The metagame was in an almost objectively better state prior to its inclusion, and with Walking Wake's introduction we're finding that the tier is ill-equipped to handle Water-types with this level of power, as was the case with Iron Bundle and Palafin alike (again, these two were WAY BETTER than Walking Wake, but the point still stands). More importantly, changing the weather doesn't really work against Walking Wake because it's still a Water-type so it can still abuse Rain. Tyranitar's at its worst in Smogon history so Sand's terrible (oh, and TTar itself gets smoked by Wake's Water STAB), Slowking's the only Snow "setter" worth mentioning (you think Abomasnow's gonna handle Specs Flamethrower? LMAO), and Pelipper's Rain just buffs Hydro Scald anyway, so the only thing it denies is the Protosynthesis boost. And what opposing weather abusers handle Walking Wake? Floatzel and Barraskewda can't OHKO it but get obliterated in return, Snow doesn't really have noteworthy abusers, and the only Sand abuser worth writing home about right now is currently chilling in Ubers because it has a broken move. You can't change the weather against it or it punishes you HARD for doing so.
TL;DR: if I get reqs I'm voting BAN on Walking Wake. This early-gen OU metagame is not ready for it quite yet.
Honestly, I haven't played that much since Walking Wake came out (I was on holidays for a week and I was spending time with my family when he came out) so I'm not as qualified as other people commenting here, but from what I've heard, seen, and from the few games that I've played yet, I can say without a doubt that Walking Wake completely deserves a BAN and I'll be explaining why.
From the first sight, the two stats that are the most important and remarquable are his SpAtk (125 is equal to Armarouge and Hydreigon, only surpassed in OU by Glimmora, Gholdengo, Volcarona, Hatterene and Iron Moth) and Speed (109 is only surpassed by Hisuian Zoroark, Iron Moth, Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, the Protean starter trilogy and Dragapult). They are already really good by themselves, but then you add his bulk : 99 HP, 91 Defense and 83 SpDefense. Combined with a typing that gives him 2 weaknesses to Dragon and Fairy which can be a bit problematic considering how powerful those 2 types are in this generation, but also 1 resistance to Steel which can be useful for Gholdengo and sometimes for Hydreigon, and 2 double resistances to Fire and Water, which are very useful all of the time considering how much these 2 types are used as offensive coverage.
Offensively talking, this typing is very good because only resisted by one Pokemon in OU right now, being Azumarill.
As a Past Paradox Pokemon, it has access to Protosynthesis for his ability which gives it a further boost to his highest stat by 30% to any stat or 50% if it's its Speed stat under the Sun. You might be saying : "But it doesn't combine well with a Water type since Water type attacks are nerfed under the Sun" I'll get to that later.
Now let's talk about the movepool. Let's divide this part in categories of moves
- Support : it pretty much has nothing outside of maybe Sunny Day and Rain Dance
- Set Up : it has Dragon Dance and Agility but it's not really useful on him
- Offensive STAB : you'll mainly see Draco Meteor, Hydro Pump, Dragon Pulse and its new signature move : Hydro Steam
- Offensive coverage : it has Flamethrower as a basic coverage and Hurricane for Rain teamsand Tera Blast
I'll also explain what Hydro Steam does. It is an 80 BP Water move with 16 PP that gets a 50% power boost under the Sun, making it effectively 120 BP under the Sun, but technically also 120 BP under the Rain.
Now that we have all the basis of what this Pokemon can do, let's see what it actually does.
It is an absolute monster under the Sun. With Hydro Steam being boosted, Flamethrower being boosted as well, and Protosythesis activating, this seeing is really hard to switch into.
As we can see, there isn't truly a Pokemon (outside of maybe Blissey) that can switch into it under the Sun without having to rely on a predict of some sort. It does too much damage, but is also really fast, because if Protosythesis activates on the Speed stat, it is one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier with 525 Speed, only being outsped by Speed Booster Energy Iron Valiant, Speed Booster Energy Roaring Moon, Scarf Roaring Moon, Scarf Meowscarada and Scarf Greninja. It is also very strong under the Rain because it can change Flamethrower for Hurricane as a coverage, making it effectively neutral on the entire game with its Flying - Dragon - Water attacks.
Some people might compare it to Volcanion in the 8th gen, which was a very strong Pokemon under the Sun and the Rain, but there are multiple things to note. First, because of its Fire typing, Volcanion ran Boots most of the time or it would take 25% on Rocks, or it could run another item like Choice Specs, but it meant you had to play around Rocks a bit more if you wanted to use it effectively. Second, it was waaaayy slower than even base Walking Wake without Speed Protosynthesis, so it was easier to revenge kill it. Lastly, it wasn't as efficient under both climates as Walking Wake is. You couldn't spam its Water type attacks under the Sun as much because it would get a 50% power drop, whereas Walking Wake's Hydro Steam gets boosted under the Sun, and you also couldn't spam Volcanion's Fire type attacks under the Rain because of the power drop, whereas Walking Wake can just use Hurricane instead of Flamethrower.
Because of its presence alone, Walking Wake has shaped the metagame around it, and not in a very healthy way in my opinion. Suns are getting spammed in the ladder and you need an answer in your team in some way, like Water Absorb Clodsire or Gastrodon, Slowking and others that I haven't seen yet but I can imagine some like the legendary Assault Vest Ttar lol.
So yeah, that's my opinion on the subject, be free to criticise it !
I know that there have been a lot of bans already and we are only a few motnhs in the generation, but I'm sure that this one is needed. I hope that the community will find a solution to it, and I think that this solution is a ban.
From the first sight, the two stats that are the most important and remarquable are his SpAtk (125 is equal to Armarouge and Hydreigon, only surpassed in OU by Glimmora, Gholdengo, Volcarona, Hatterene and Iron Moth) and Speed (109 is only surpassed by Hisuian Zoroark, Iron Moth, Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, the Protean starter trilogy and Dragapult). They are already really good by themselves, but then you add his bulk : 99 HP, 91 Defense and 83 SpDefense. Combined with a typing that gives him 2 weaknesses to Dragon and Fairy which can be a bit problematic considering how powerful those 2 types are in this generation, but also 1 resistance to Steel which can be useful for Gholdengo and sometimes for Hydreigon, and 2 double resistances to Fire and Water, which are very useful all of the time considering how much these 2 types are used as offensive coverage.
Offensively talking, this typing is very good because only resisted by one Pokemon in OU right now, being Azumarill.
As a Past Paradox Pokemon, it has access to Protosynthesis for his ability which gives it a further boost to his highest stat by 30% to any stat or 50% if it's its Speed stat under the Sun. You might be saying : "But it doesn't combine well with a Water type since Water type attacks are nerfed under the Sun" I'll get to that later.
Now let's talk about the movepool. Let's divide this part in categories of moves
- Support : it pretty much has nothing outside of maybe Sunny Day and Rain Dance
- Set Up : it has Dragon Dance and Agility but it's not really useful on him
- Offensive STAB : you'll mainly see Draco Meteor, Hydro Pump, Dragon Pulse and its new signature move : Hydro Steam
- Offensive coverage : it has Flamethrower as a basic coverage and Hurricane for Rain teams
I'll also explain what Hydro Steam does. It is an 80 BP Water move with 16 PP that gets a 50% power boost under the Sun, making it effectively 120 BP under the Sun, but technically also 120 BP under the Rain.
Now that we have all the basis of what this Pokemon can do, let's see what it actually does.
It is an absolute monster under the Sun. With Hydro Steam being boosted, Flamethrower being boosted as well, and Protosythesis activating, this seeing is really hard to switch into.
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Wash: 289-342 (95 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Wash in Sun: 191-225 (62.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 217-256 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 310-366 (101.9 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu in Sun: 356-422 (69.2 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 307-363 (85.5 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 222-262 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 318-375 (68.6 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 298-352 (75.6 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Sun: 237-280 (33.1 - 39.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Wash in Sun: 191-225 (62.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 217-256 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 310-366 (101.9 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu in Sun: 356-422 (69.2 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 307-363 (85.5 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 222-262 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 318-375 (68.6 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 298-352 (75.6 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Sun: 237-280 (33.1 - 39.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
As we can see, there isn't truly a Pokemon (outside of maybe Blissey) that can switch into it under the Sun without having to rely on a predict of some sort. It does too much damage, but is also really fast, because if Protosythesis activates on the Speed stat, it is one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier with 525 Speed, only being outsped by Speed Booster Energy Iron Valiant, Speed Booster Energy Roaring Moon, Scarf Roaring Moon, Scarf Meowscarada and Scarf Greninja. It is also very strong under the Rain because it can change Flamethrower for Hurricane as a coverage, making it effectively neutral on the entire game with its Flying - Dragon - Water attacks.
Some people might compare it to Volcanion in the 8th gen, which was a very strong Pokemon under the Sun and the Rain, but there are multiple things to note. First, because of its Fire typing, Volcanion ran Boots most of the time or it would take 25% on Rocks, or it could run another item like Choice Specs, but it meant you had to play around Rocks a bit more if you wanted to use it effectively. Second, it was waaaayy slower than even base Walking Wake without Speed Protosynthesis, so it was easier to revenge kill it. Lastly, it wasn't as efficient under both climates as Walking Wake is. You couldn't spam its Water type attacks under the Sun as much because it would get a 50% power drop, whereas Walking Wake's Hydro Steam gets boosted under the Sun, and you also couldn't spam Volcanion's Fire type attacks under the Rain because of the power drop, whereas Walking Wake can just use Hurricane instead of Flamethrower.
Because of its presence alone, Walking Wake has shaped the metagame around it, and not in a very healthy way in my opinion. Suns are getting spammed in the ladder and you need an answer in your team in some way, like Water Absorb Clodsire or Gastrodon, Slowking and others that I haven't seen yet but I can imagine some like the legendary Assault Vest Ttar lol.
So yeah, that's my opinion on the subject, be free to criticise it !
I know that there have been a lot of bans already and we are only a few motnhs in the generation, but I'm sure that this one is needed. I hope that the community will find a solution to it, and I think that this solution is a ban.
your outs were running a D rank Pokemon and dodging a Draco Meteor..now allow me to address the entiretera-dragon +SpA protosynthesis modest specs argument. i had a scary encounter with this set yesterday and it did some insane shit like 82% to my physically defensive corviknight and basically being an auto-kill button vs my fat balance. AND I STILL HAD OUTS VS IT.
The tera-dragon +SpA protosynthesis modest specs replay here just further emphasises how completely busted Garg is the guy had no chance after you got a couple of curses off and nothing wants to come in against it because it'll just get chipped to oblivion.walking wake is not broken. there is (a) nothing wrong with sun being top-tier & (b) sun as an archetype folds heavy to many common threats:you click substitute on torkoal and it literally shits on every sun staple with dragon darts | hex | will-o-wisp
sun folds 6-0 to this. bulk up +def tusk is usually their only answer which is not hard at all to wear down
another pokemon sun struggles with. walking wake does check it but this is moot depending on its tera type. simply bringing volcarona in causes a lot of sun players to panic so you can even click bug buzz on the switch to chip walking wake and set up later
any glimmora set is an absolute bitch for sun to maneuver around. if they go hard into walking wake on stealth rock, you can proceed to chip it with dazzling gleam via focus sash then sack it later in the game to get up a toxic spike
some high ladder replays of walking wake being manageable with various styles of offense: 1 / 2 / 3+speed proto is very scary but even offense has plenty of checks. in addition to threats i displayed above, some of these include:
iron valiant (booster / scarf)
booster iron moth
azumarill
kingambit after some chip
a plethora of dragon-types like hydreigon, baxcalibur, and roaring moon that punish the hydro steam lock
focus sash users such as meowscarada, ceruledge, breloom, and zoroark-h
timely defensive teras to heavily chip if not outright remove walking wake
if it's +SpA protosynthesis, your options for revenge killing are even wider. a 'mon i like using right now is greninja. choice specs grass knot always OHKO's after SR. greninja is also impossible for sun teams to switch into in general
now that i have this out of the way, i'm going to address the main issue people have with walking wake and that is whether this pokemon has defensive counter-play. not only do I think it has defensive counter-play but all of walking wake's defensive counter-play is both viable and abundant. allow me to list some of it:
toxapex is a dogshit pokemon and players are still using it despite the chien-pao ban. toxapex now has a defined niche. it pivots in safely and is a pain for sun teams in general since it can put on a lot of pressure with toxic spikes
take a look at this replay and tell me what sun does to water garganacl. sun is ass bro, shit loses 6-0 to it LOL just pair it with a fairy- or a steel-type like corviknight in my case for in-game flexibility
extremely solid walking wake answer since it receives the +spdef boost in sun. scream tail is criminally underrated: it literally counter-teams all the brainless HO's being spammed right now with encore. wish keeps teammates healthy
underexplored 'mons that i have been spamming. sun never stays up when you have either sand setter and these are not bad pokemon at all. sand chip in general is lowkey broken and both 'mons are solid stealth rock setters. hatterene are mostly eject on sun and draining kiss never outheals eq + sand chip from hippowdon. in case you don't play sun, hippowdon is still a bitch to take down in other mu's and annoys the fuck out of offense with whirlwind. tyranitar has utility for checking 'mons like skeledirge, iron moth, and certain volcarona sets, while also applying pressure to great tusk on the switch with ice beam. while neither sand setters are walking wake switch-ins, sand allows you to get away with softer counter-play like amoonguss or specially defensive corviknight for walking wake
^ this is all when it comes to hard counter-play in the builder. walking wake can also be dealt with in practice with combinations like fairy-type + specially defensive rotom-w (not an unset, people were using this for dragapult even pre-walking wake) and yes, dare i say it, gastrodon
https://pokepast.es/46a0bae5e238a594
in order to prove my points, i decided to use some fat balance for my 30-0 suspect test run. it would be hypocritical if i used offense and said walking wake was fine, wouldn't it? gastrodon is very good in my opinion. the shit got spikes this generation which means it's not as passive as you think despite losing scald and toxic. and unlike clodsire, it can actually kill great tusk with surf which is big. the gastrodon on this team is forced to run clear smog (hatterene 6-0's otherwise) but i can see this thing doing even more work on different team compositions as earth power is a nice secondary stab for exerting pressure. garganacl is my fairy-type and stealth rock user of choice to complete the hazard core and force walking wake into uncomfortable situations when it comes to picking between hydro steam and draco meteor. curse > protect in order to bypass certain substitute users. iron moth is my np gholdengo check, while also checking skeledirge and volcarona with acid spray. corviknight and great tusk complete the defensive backbone to blanket check a lot of attackers (mainly great tusk and kingambit) while providing hazard control simultaneously. ditto is used last for flexibility vs cheese + set up 'mons that get out of control since the squad has no unaware users
____
now allow me to address the entiretera-dragon +SpA protosynthesis modest specs argument. i had a scary encounter with this set yesterday and it did some insane shit like 82% to my physically defensive corviknight and basically being an auto-kill button vs my fat balance. AND I STILL HAD OUTS VS IT. i played him a couple games afterwards too and i came to the realization his team was just a shitty match-up fish squad as all i did with a different team the 2nd game was bring in chomp and claim a kill every time → x button
i don't find these types of sets to be a good indicator on whether walking wake is broken or not as they are only good in specific mu's and and a complete liability in others. great tusk can do the same shit with cb adamant +atk protosynthesis tera-ground headlong rush. should we ban that too? the calc's say otherwise don't it? take a look at this replay as well. should we ban iron valiant? all i did was set-up terrain then come in with +SpA quark drive modest specs tera-fairy moonblast and invalidated this guy's entire balance team! broken!
i find walking wake extremely tame compared to
but you know what? let's ignore that because apparently walking mid is some flutter mane level threat that needs immediate tiering action! fuck outta here man, it's only been 6 days. i'm voting do not ban, you guys are all soft as fuck
I'd also note that the Ditto took 38% on a goddamn Quad Resist. Feel like if anything that illustrates absurd power considering Walking Wake's Defenses aren't exactly low for an Offensive Battering Ram.
Working through getting my reqs now, and I am currently on the fence on how I'll vote... but I would like to say it is quite a joy to play in a nearly Garganacl free meta, thank you Walking Wake. :)
Okay, but he is spitting fax tho fr fr no cap on god
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