Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - The Killing Moon

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Bloodmoon picks up kills in the tera turn
Kingambit picks up kills in the tera turn
Baxcalibur didn't had to tera <- there is the difference
Yeah, but bm doesn't need screens, snow defense boost, loaded dice, and a buff from the DLC to be broken, but bax does. Bax would be broken whether tera is allowed or not, but since tera is allowed, bm is also broken since it can just flip it's weaknesses on it's head. Tera isn't really relevant right now because this isn't a tera suspect, this is a bm suspect and since tera is allowed, then it shouldn't really matter whether something needs tera or not to be broken because that threat can use tera if it wants to and there's nothing anyone can do about it.
 

bludgeoning angel

Banned deucer.
(...) Tera isn't really relevant right now because this isn't a tera suspect, this is a bm suspect and since tera is allowed, then it shouldn't really matter whether something needs tera or not to be broken because that threat can use tera if it wants to and there's nothing anyone can do about it.
Tera is more like a nerf than a buff, this is also pretty weird philosophy for suspects, something that everyone can use is not strictly fair everytime.
But I do agree on the second part where you say that nobody can do anything about it - so just don't ban it then.
 
Bloodmoon picks up kills in the tera turn
Kingambit picks up kills in the tera turn
Baxcalibur didn't had to tera <- there is the difference
have you actually used bloodmoon? a lot of the time it doesn't have to tera at all, you just get it in and it eats whatever your opponent is frantically switching to in an attempt to stop the calm mind. bloodmoon still has all the elements to be broken in a non-tera meta
 

kd458

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But I do agree on the second part where you say that nobody can do anything about it - so just don't ban it then.
So the solution is to leave the broken mon in the tier then, because we'll surely be dealing with Tera later and that'll make BM fine when we get round to that, or am I missing something in this point? It's not just that a Tera ban is not something everyone wants (and has a good chance of not going through), but wouldn't it be better to ban the broken mon now and return it to the tier later if Tera was dealt with, instead of having a worse metagame cus "it's Tera's fault so don't ban it"?

I just think it's not even worth considering whether it'd be broken or not in a Tera-less metagame for this vote, because that's not what we play.
 
You know, ive had difficulty in defending a pokemon during a suspect before, even kingambit at some points, chien pao was the hardest thing ive ever had to defend to the point i started making up logical shit to make it seem okay when its really not, but Ursaluna Blood Moon, i tried to get behind it, tried to defend it, usually i work hard on these posts and spend atleast an hour or two writing them, but in this instance i have Spent over 4 hours challenging myself trying to find a legitimate argument to keep Bloodmoon in ou, but i was unsuccessful, so here are some points as to why i think this thing should go:

1. Possibly the laziest signature move of all time blood moon, they took its name suffix and made it a move and put 140bp and gave it gigaton hammer effects to make it seem okay, which is ridiculous, a 140bp stab on a bulky pokemon that can setup , healing moves and priority, this should never be okay.

2. Its bulk, this thing with max defense can take 30% from zamazenta body press without the defense boost ofc, and even with it doesnt 2hko, doesnt require tera to muscle past its type weaknesses and is given a healing move, unacceptable.

3. Scrappy? Really? Mind's eye is scrappy, so not only did they allow its signature move to be 140bp, and its priority move to be fighting type, they decided to make them hit their immunities for full super saiyan strength right? Lmao just laughable

4. Electric immune, ground types are always mandatory on teams but the fact that this can be a solid bulky one on top of the buffs it received, is just down right INSANE.

5. Ghost immune, hey all teams need a ghost resist right, why not! I can be a ghost resist, a ground type, ur offense breaker, and ur stallbreaker, all i need is 1 slot on ur team to define the word role compression in the english dictionary by having 999999 roles xD!!!!

Complete joke of a pokemon man, i couldnt even make 1 legitimate point to defend it, ban this thing it should have been a quickban.



- The point below has nothing to do with my argument just personal preference:-
test gliscor or darkrai plz, preferably darkrai, would be just great for the tier, a legitimate ice beam user to properly deal with gliscor, because it has been really restrictive and problematic, unstoppable spiker.
 
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VicBossMG

MGS enthusiast
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You know, ive had difficulty in defending a pokemon during a suspect before, even kingambit at some points, chien pao was the hardest thing ive ever had to defend to the point i started making up logical shit to make it seem okay when its really not, but Ursaluna Blood Moon, i tried to get behind it, tried to defend it, usually i work hard on these posts and spend atleast an hour or two writing them, but in this instance i have Spent over 4 hours challenging myself trying to find a legitimate argument to keep Bloodmoon in ou, but i was unsuccessful, so here are some points as to why i think this thung should go:

1. Possibly the laziest signature move of all time blood moon, they took its name suffix and made it a move and put 140bp and gave it gigaton hammer effects to make it seem okay, which is ridiculous, a 140bp stab on a bulky pokemon that can setup , healing moves and priority, this should never be okay.

2. Its bulk, this thing with max defense can take 30% from zamazenta body press without the defense boost ofc, and even with it doesnt 2hko, doesnt require t era to muscle past its type weaknesses and is given a healing move, unacceptable.

3. Scrappy? Really? Mind's eye is scrappy, so not only did they allow its signature move to be 140bp, and its priority move to be fighting type, they decided to make them hit their immunities for full super saiyan strength right? Lmao just laughable

4. Electric immune, ground types are always mandatory on teams but the fact that this can be a solid bulky one on top of the buffs it received, is just down right INSANE.

5. Ghost immune, hey all teams need a ghost resist right, why not! I can be a ghost resist, a ground type, ur offense breaker, and ur stallbreaker, all i need is 1 slot on ur team to define the word role compression in the english dictionary by having 999999 roles xD!!!!

Complete joke of a pokemon man, i couldnt even make 1 legitimate point to defend it, ban this thing it should have been a quickban.



- The point below has nothing to do with my argument just personal preference:-
test gliscor or darkrai plz, preferably darkrai, would be just great for the tier, a legitimate ice beam user to properly deal with gliscor, because it has been really restrictive and problematic, unstoppable spiker.
don’t forget the gterrain with the free boost to its def to make it even more unkillable while setting up, absurd mon
 
I don’t really think it works that way; I think that what the community decides on the whole shouldn’t be your bar. Your personal opinion should be the bar. Every individual voter has their own decision to make just like every individual poster does. Just because 40 or 45% feel differently than you doesn’t suddenly make your opinion wrong or make everything relative to that exact data point.
Speaking as someone involved in the legal profession, precedent doesn't really apply in the way it was being proposed, either. Stare decisis, the principle that tells courts to follow their prior holdings, has a narrow scope, and requires that you actually be able to point to the previously applied logic to use as precedent. Smogon is obviously not a court or legal system, but I'd still like to explain why precedent should not weigh on suspect decisions. When a court in the US makes a decision, it is bound to first reference its previous decisions where similarities in the circumstances actually justify that comparison. In giving precedential weight to a decision, a court should be able to analogize what makes the previous decision similar enough to the current one to apply its holdings.

The "precedent" proposed is that because Kingambit was not banned on account of terastalization being perceived as the real issue, Ursaluna-BM should not be banned for the same reason. However, as with most suspect tests, the final results of the suspect do not have any reasoning in and of themselves. Any particular voting user may give their reasoning in the suspect thread, possibly even as an attempt to convince other users to vote the same way, but they do not have the final say on the reason why a mon is banned. As a consequence, there is no precedent to apply. You can't point to the previous suspect and identify a single reason something was banned because, as a vote, there is none. Perhaps for similar reasons, jury decisions also do not set precedent in court.

You could maybe make an argument that precedent should be considered in more panel-based or unilateral tiering decisions like quickbans, but even then, every Pokemon and metagame is unique and results in a situation where there are no similar facts to analogize with, and no reason to apply precedential weight. Overall, it's best not to apply legal standards to non-legal matters.

Tera is more like a nerf than a buff, this is also pretty weird philosophy for suspects, something that everyone can use is not strictly fair everytime.
But I do agree on the second part where you say that nobody can do anything about it - so just don't ban it then.
On an unrelated note, this argument is kind of pointless. Consider the actual scope of the suspect. The question is not "Is Ursaluna, or terastalization, or Kingambit, or webs, or aurora veil broken?" The question is "is Ursaluna broken?" Take the meta as it is and answer the simple question. If you believe other matters are at issue, then propose them to be considered after the suspect ends. As many others have said before, there is no reason suspect votes can't be undone in light of later decisions that shift the meta in such a way that the formerly banned mon is now fair.
 
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What an unbelievable wasted opportunity to use CCR as the suspect song, smh. The lyrics are even applicable too!

anyway, blood moon is comically stupidly hilariously broken. A nuclear powered tank with recovery and priority!? It has no place in OU. There isn’t even a valuable meta niche it’s providing, it’s not like there’s a dearth of breakers this gen. I’m just surprised that this gets a suspect and volc gets a qb.
Yup, the letter just fits so nicely. Bad moon, troubles, earthquakes and lighting as STABs, almost impossible to play around or will kill you, the surprise hyper voice and even the fact it only has one eye. It even talks about Manaphy's hydro pumps and the ridiculous power weather HO can have in OU.

In all seriousness, Ursaluna reminds me of an even more powerful version of Kingambit who goes on the special side. I still stand that Kingambit should have been banned back in august, so imagine that with recovery in moonlight... Yeah, gen 9 being gen 9, land of comically OP creatures.
 
After playing some more... I think the thing that may push Bloodmoon over the top isn't the set up sweeping set alone (which I maintain isn't that broken on its by itself), it's the extremely powerful alternatives that punish you for trying to answer the set up sweeping set.

Gonna try and compare it to Kingambit for a bit.

If you have an answer to Kingambit's set up sweeping set, that's it, you have the answer. You don't have to worry about getting hit in the face with a life orb/silk scarf 140BP special move. You can burn it. You can always switch in stuff like Hisui-Samurott at least one time and force it out unless it burns tera, and then if it did burn tera it suddenly loses to a bunch of things it didn't before (and still takes massive damage from Razor Shell), or if you have even one encore user, it has to kill you with a move that's not sucker punch or else the sweep ends there. There are no alternate sets to Kingambit that people are using, it's all different flavours of set up sweep that people can overcome.

Now with this bear, if you don't know what it's going to do, and you switch in something, and you're expecting a 56 invested SpA mon try to set up sweep, and instead you eat a 252+ invested life orb Bloodmoon, then you kind of just lost. As the meta evolves, less people are running just the set up set, and the fact that both the most popular sets punish each other's answers is very problematic.

I think there are probably better pokemon in the tier, like Gliscor, but I don't think this thing is healthy anymore. I liked that it punished Gliscor users, I liked that it could really pressure Hyper Offense teams, I liked that it had Vacuum wave for Kingambit, but it hasn't hit it's ceiling yet like I thought it would. People are just finding more creative ways to win with this thing, and there's no real answer to the variety of sets. You can build a team and find great success for dealing with the set you think everyone is running with the Bear, and then suddenly people are running weird shit like Choice Specs tera normal Hyper Voice, and suddenly your team has to lose its special wall and then Iron Moth can sweep you for free.

Cards on the table, I really like this pokemon. I love the design, I loved using it, it's definitely my favourite mon they introduced this gen after Gambit, but after further testing, it's getting to be too much. I'm probably going to have to change my vote to Ban, and I hate saying that because I love this thing so much.
 

bludgeoning angel

Banned deucer.
(...) Consider the actual scope of the suspect. The question is not "Is Ursaluna, or terastalization, or Kingambit, or webs, or aurora veil broken?" The question is "is Ursaluna broken?" **Take the meta as it is and answer the simple question**. If you believe other matters are at issue, then propose them to be considered after the suspect ends. (...)
No, shouldn't be banned.
Reasoning: the power does not come from the Pokemon itself but rather its ability to terastalize (not exclusive to bloodmoon).
 
No, shouldn't be banned.
Reasoning: the power does not come from the Pokemon itself but rather its ability to terastalize (not exclusive to bloodmoon).
To conclude this, you'd have to have a metagame where Ursaluna cannot terastalize as a reference point. You don't have one, so as it stands, there is no conceivable way you could prove with the level of confidence you have that terastalization is at fault, and all of Ursaluna's power comes from without. You are making an assumption (terastalization is broken) to support an assumption (therefore, Ursaluna without terastalization is not broken).

Again, this is not the terastalization suspect, this is the Ursaluna suspect. Let's stick to the thing we can actually measure without stacking up baseless assumptions about a hypothetical metagame.

Also, "if x (terastalization), then y (ursaluna is broken)" does not translate to "if not x (no terastalization), then not y (ursaluna is not broken)." It's fallacious reasoning. Even if we take as given what you say that terastalization is broken and the root cause of everything, there isn't a logical conclusion you can pull from that that would inform the Ursaluna suspect. Please keep in mind what is actually under consideration and the reality we are currently in rather than diving deep into multi-layered hypothetical metagames.

Perhaps also consider not trolling? You've done nothing but reiterate this same, tired point with nothing to actually lend it any weight.
 
Remember when people said "Kingambit isn't broken, Tera is broken. DNB gambit and ban tera!" and then gambit stayed and so did tera because it was explicitly not going to get retested and the meta was dog ass for weeks? Don't do it again with Ursaluna. It has been made extremely clear tons of times that Tera is staying for the forseeable future, and so the bear has to be scrutinized in a Tera metagame. Whether or not you like the mechanic, whether or not you think it is broken, you have to recognize that if you think Ursa-BM is a problem with Tera, by the premise of the suspect it is a problem in general.
 
No, shouldn't be banned.
Reasoning: the power does not come from the Pokemon itself but rather its ability to terastalize (not exclusive to bloodmoon).
oh, is that it? all right then, why not unban palafin, since some might argue that its power comes from the ability to terastallize too? and while we're at it, let's unban flutter mane! its power comes from the ability to hold items and that isn't exclusive to it, so why are we keeping this perfectly good and balanced pokemon out of the tier? hell, let's unban calyrex-shadow because its power comes from the ability to use special attacks! that's not exclusive to it, so it must mean that the pokemon itself isn't broken, right? how am i supposed to be polite when people keep posting the dumbest shit imaginable with a perfectly straight face?
Remember when people said "Kingambit isn't broken, Tera is broken. DNB gambit and ban tera!" and then gambit stayed and so did tera because it was explicitly not going to get retested and the meta was dog ass for weeks? Don't do it again with Ursaluna. It has been made extremely clear tons of times that Tera is staying for the forseeable future, and so the bear has to be scrutinized in a Tera metagame. Whether or not you like the mechanic, whether or not you think it is broken, you have to recognize that if you think Ursa-BM is a problem with Tera, by the premise of the suspect it is a problem in general.
the people you're addressing already know this. they're just willing to ignore tiering philosophy and hold the entire meta hostage until they get their tera suspect. this isn't even some sort of conspiracy theory or bad-faith argument or anything, people have actually come out and said as much in public threads for anyone to see
 
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zbr

less than 99% acc = never hit
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Yeah, but bm doesn't need screens, snow defense boost, loaded dice, and a buff from the DLC to be broken, but bax does. Bax would be broken whether tera is allowed or not, but since tera is allowed, bm is also broken since it can just flip it's weaknesses on it's head. Tera isn't really relevant right now because this isn't a tera suspect, this is a bm suspect and since tera is allowed, then it shouldn't really matter whether something needs tera or not to be broken because that threat can use tera if it wants to and there's nothing anyone can do about it.
id argue bax was alr broken in pre dlc meta that warranted a look at but i digress

anyway, after toying around a lot with bm, I don’t rlly like how bm is in the current meta game and it rlly gives me very bad ptsd of mega maw from gen 6. both grassy seed and all out offensive variants require purposeful statusing unless you’re running clef / bliss / fatstuff and I don’t rlly wanna be forced into running that just to make my teams play a decent bm matchup. I love HO but bm rlly makes me wanna tear my eyeballs out cause it can be really frustrating sometimes to deal with it. the ability to control when you Tera your bm gives you a big advantage over your opponent as chances are, if your opponent proactively teras wrongly, bm will eat them up; if they reactively tera to bm, bm will still be able to put in work before letting it’s partners clean up. bm mirrors are plainly just who can weaken their opposing bm checks faster and it’s kinda stale rn.

tldr - ursaluna bm rlly makes team building extremely stuffy rn and I’m not the biggest fan of the bm’s restrictiveness. I’ll most likely vote for ban
 
No, shouldn't be banned.
Reasoning: the power does not come from the Pokemon itself but rather its ability to terastalize (not exclusive to bloodmoon).
I know this is a shitpost but that logic doesn't hold up since it is broken with Tera and we cannot safely assume it would not be broken without Tera. We are also not playing a Tera-less meta so we have to deal with what is broken as it stands.
 
I was initially going to vote DNB as I had found Blood Moon to be manageable early on. Then I actually went to get reqs, and holy shit it just exerts so much pressure while playing it's asinine. Even without Tera its bulk on both sides after a calm mind is absurd and its damage output is ridiculous. Forcing stuff like iron defence/bulk up Spdef :Corviknight:, Spdef Unaware :Clefable:, :Blissey:, SubProtect :Gliscor: etc. on teams is also quite dumb, Blissey only rose to OU just to answer this thing and the others would much rather use better sets. In my suspect run I used AV offensive :Tyranitar: and imo it's a great answer but Blood Moon just exerts so much pressure it cripples your team, leaving it vulnerable to the other mons on it team and, as others have mentioned, forces at the very least a 1 for 1 trade. Usually it trades for way more though. Will be voting Ban.
 
No, shouldn't be banned.
Reasoning: the power does not come from the Pokemon itself but rather its ability to terastalize (not exclusive to bloodmoon).
People keep disregarding posts like these that happen every suspect. How many mons we going to ban because of this nonsensical mechanic? Tera is a problem that most people want addressed.

In Bloodmoon’s case, I share sentiment with this post. I find this mon to be dumb and stupid but somewhat manageable because he is slow. My dawgs can usually come in on the revenge kill and tear him up. But then he miraculously turns poisonous (tera poison) or decides to grow roots (tera grass), grow fins and scales (Tera water) or become a master Samauri (tera fighting). That causes me to lose 2-3 mons instead of 1. Ban!
 

bludgeoning angel

Banned deucer.
Also, "if x (terastalization), then y (ursaluna is broken)" does not translate to "if not x (no terastalization), then not y (ursaluna is not broken)." It's fallacious reasoning. Even if we take as given what you say that terastalization is broken and the root cause of everything, there isn't a logical conclusion you can pull from that that would inform the Ursaluna suspect. Please keep in mind what is actually under consideration and the reality we are currently in rather than diving deep into multi-layered hypothetical metagames.

Perhaps also consider not trolling? You've done nothing but reiterate this same, tired point with nothing to actually lend it any weight.
Let's say many pokémon share X brokeness factor (terastalization), it is stated in tiering that when this happens you are able to ban a move, ability, item or even a mechanic.
This has happened in multiple instances: last respects (move), shadow tag (ability), soul dew (item) and finally dynamax (mechanic).
Once you realise that tera is a weak point for the whole meta rather than a buff, you're maybe gonna change your mind, let's say the situation where bloodmoon teras into poison and then loses to tusk.
Have said that, then you must check all the 3 common bloodmoon teras (poison, grass, water etc) or at least revenge kill it with your offensive pokémon. This is a nerf to every single pokémon in the tier except for few exceptions, now you have a suboptimal team (this is ignoring the fact that you can guess the tera) or a team that loses a good amount of games in ladder, what are you gonna do once you face a different tera that your team is not prepared for? This mechanic, transforms a meaningless pokémon that gets 1hko'ed by rillaboom into a nightmare, hence, is not moons fault.
How many more pokémon have to be banned for this mechanic to be addressed? You can tell me a thousand times that we're not talking about terastalization, I don't care.
 
Let's say many pokémon share X brokeness factor (terastalization), it is stated in tiering that when this happens you are able to ban a move, ability, item or even a mechanic.
This has happened in multiple instances: last respects (move), shadow tag (ability), soul dew (item) and finally dynamax (mechanic).
Once you realise that tera is a weak point for the whole meta rather than a buff, you're maybe gonna change your mind, let's say the situation where bloodmoon teras into poison and then loses to tusk.
Have said that, then you must check all the 3 common bloodmoon teras (poison, grass, water etc) or at least revenge kill it with your offensive pokémon. This is a nerf to every single pokémon in the tier except for few exceptions, now you have a suboptimal team (this is ignoring the fact that you can guess the tera) or a team that loses a good amount of games in ladder, what are you gonna do once you face a different tera that your team is not prepared for?
How many more pokémon have to be banned for this mechanic to be addressed? You can tell me a thousand times that we're not talking about terastalization, I don't care.
This is a conversation that's been had hundreds of times already that Tera isn't going to be addressed right now so this point is completely irrelevant because we are playing WITH Tera right now. So you have to make the best meta you can right now while Tera is available, which means banning problematic Pokémon like Ursaluna-B.

It's whatever, you don't care, but it means your point is literally irrelevant because it's not going to addressed for literal months so you're just screaming for nothing

This mechanic, transforms a meaningless pokémon that gets 1hko'ed by rillaboom into a nightmare, hence, is not moons fault.
This point is funny bc even without Tera, Ursaluna-B is very good, meaningless is a crazy way to say it
 

viivian

flying through space
is a Tiering Contributor
Just embrace the Bronzong
OHKOd by banded roaring moon, bad mon /s

No, shouldn't be banned.
Reasoning: the power does not come from the Pokemon itself but rather its ability to terastalize (not exclusive to bloodmoon).
all jokes aside though i feel like i should say something about this

the power absolutely comes from the pokemon itself. if anything tera is just the final nail in the coffin, the cherry on top of this bullshit ass sundae. even on its own it is obscenely strong and is very hard to stop, this is not an espathra or volcarona situation where tera was what made them broken. it would be much easier to handle without tera, yes, but on its own it is still easily suspect-worthy
 
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People keep disregarding posts like these that happen every suspect. How many mons we going to ban because of this nonsensical mechanic? Tera is a problem that most people want addressed.
they disregard it bc this isn't a tera suspect, so arguments against or pro tera are not on topic. We're playing the metagame of now, where tera is fully legal and thus all decisions should be made in that context, not a context where tera is gone.

hell, its not like we can guarantee tera will be banned when its looked at again, pro ban failed once, they can def fail twice. "addressing" can sometimes just end with the silent majority saying "we addressed it and we think its fine".

anyway bm broken plz ban
 
they disregard it bc this isn't a tera suspect, so arguments against or pro tera are not on topic. We're playing the metagame of now, where tera is fully legal and thus all decisions should be made in that context, not a context where tera is gone.
It keeps coming up because this argument hinges on forcing everyone to compartmentalize Tera when many in the community either cannot or will not do that. Functionally, base Bloodmoon and Tera Poison / Water / Fightin Bloodmoon are different mons. They have different counterplay, different typing, and different STABs.

hell, its not like we can guarantee tera will be banned when its looked at again, pro ban failed once, they can def fail twice. "addressing" can sometimes just end with the silent majority saying "we addressed it and we think its fine".
A 59% pro-ban majority should not be taken lightly. Let’s refrain from calling 41% of the player base a “silent majority.” That is not any kind of majority. Just because something falls short of ban by razor thin margin of a supermajority does not mean most people think it is “okay.” The contrary. Last suspect Kingambit is now at 50% usage despite 55% of qualified voters deeming it broken. And people wonder why this tier is a mess.
 
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