yeah this alone should help convince people that BM is not the most healthy thing for the tier. we're getting back into gen 8 darkshifu spectrier territory here
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np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - The Killing Moon
- Thread starter Finchinator
- Start date
- Status
When discussing mons and how balanced/broken they are, I think it's always a good idea to begin with its best set, and use that as the foundation to build further arguments.
I COULD BE BANNED (Ursaluna-Bloodmoon) @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Mind's Eye
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 128 Def / 76 SpA / 28 SpD / 28 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Blood Moon
- Earth Power
- Moonlight
So listen I think the evs are uh...flexible, but I'll explain mine. 76 SpA modest ensures that BM-->EP-->BM kills sdef dondozo even if they are lefties, 28 SpD ensures you live one focus blast from gholdengo if needed, 28 Speed is used to outpace blissey, then simply max HP rest in defense.
This pokemon, as we've seen, forces unreasonable and subpar sets in order to be dealt with adequately. After a single calm mind and grassy seed proc, it is a hulking monster with 429 hp/452 Def/535 SpA/259 SpD and is insanely difficult to take down. I'm going to walk through the three best answers to this bastard bear, because the others are quite frankly shit.
1) Corv: Sub+bulk up+roost+brave bird corviknight with max sdef is one of the best answers you can manage. You can safely roost behind a sub, and with enough bulk ups, brave bird can hurt ursabm even if it is tera poison. The problem is that this set is a passive piece of shit. It is incredibly easy to take advantage of a corviknight whose only attack is brave bird and cannot even u-turn. It is free real estate for sd kingambit, heatran, zapdos, rotom-w, etc all mons which you could've body pressed or at least u-turned on.
2) Gliscor: The other solid answer is sub+protect+eq+toxic gliscor. Pretty self explanatory what it does, u keep up a sub bc blood moon can't be used twice in a row then click toxic/eq as needed. The problem with this set, funnily enough, is the interactions with opposing gliscor. When you fight a good gliscor set (eq/spikes/toxic/protect), you are letting that shit in for free and letting max layers go all the way up. If you run into SD gliscor, that's also setting up for completely free on you. The worst part here is that you're gonna hard lose if ursabm ever decides to go hyper voice, which is a fairly common option.
3) Cresselia: A standard cress set actually does well, no footnotes. Obviously this isn't splashable counterplay though, and must suffer through the very common kingambit/encore usage in this tier. If you want to set up on gliscor, you must burn your tera to poison/steel, meaning you can't go tera blast fight for kingambit like you could in the home meta. With Encore being a strong option on every ogerpon and gliscor forcing you to tera, it's safe to say cress got worse from home to dlc.
I am ignoring shit like cm psyshock bronzong, tera ghost air balloon NG Gweezing, and other unviable gimmicks. I will also ignore counterplay that involves tera like Sub tera grass iron moth or tera grass protect leftovers heatran, because requiring a tera use to check a pokemon which hasn't used/doesn't need to use its tera is a very bad idea. Using tera to cover a hole in your teambuilding still leaves you at a significant disadvantage, because you have used your tera and your opponent is free to use theirs without fear.
Some argue that forcing ursabm to tera poison is great! So what if it turns your gliscor into set up fodder, you can still deal with it! The problem is that Minds eye Blood Moon+EP is damn near perfect coverage and no single tera type will save you defensively besides tera steel+levitate mons. So using your own tera to handle ursabm's tera is rarely an option (and even when it is, something like tera steel rotom-w is not breaking a cm tera poison ursabm). Your tera has to be offensive and punch through its massive bulk somehow, this rarely happens. In general, the better a pokemon is, the harder it will abuse tera. Not all teras are made equal, and this one is much more overwhelming than what most of OU could do.
The above counterplay is either insufficient, subpar, or not splashable in the slightest. This pokemon is absurdly strong and bulky. I will be voting BAN.
I COULD BE BANNED (Ursaluna-Bloodmoon) @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Mind's Eye
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 128 Def / 76 SpA / 28 SpD / 28 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Blood Moon
- Earth Power
- Moonlight
So listen I think the evs are uh...flexible, but I'll explain mine. 76 SpA modest ensures that BM-->EP-->BM kills sdef dondozo even if they are lefties, 28 SpD ensures you live one focus blast from gholdengo if needed, 28 Speed is used to outpace blissey, then simply max HP rest in defense.
This pokemon, as we've seen, forces unreasonable and subpar sets in order to be dealt with adequately. After a single calm mind and grassy seed proc, it is a hulking monster with 429 hp/452 Def/535 SpA/259 SpD and is insanely difficult to take down. I'm going to walk through the three best answers to this bastard bear, because the others are quite frankly shit.
1) Corv: Sub+bulk up+roost+brave bird corviknight with max sdef is one of the best answers you can manage. You can safely roost behind a sub, and with enough bulk ups, brave bird can hurt ursabm even if it is tera poison. The problem is that this set is a passive piece of shit. It is incredibly easy to take advantage of a corviknight whose only attack is brave bird and cannot even u-turn. It is free real estate for sd kingambit, heatran, zapdos, rotom-w, etc all mons which you could've body pressed or at least u-turned on.
2) Gliscor: The other solid answer is sub+protect+eq+toxic gliscor. Pretty self explanatory what it does, u keep up a sub bc blood moon can't be used twice in a row then click toxic/eq as needed. The problem with this set, funnily enough, is the interactions with opposing gliscor. When you fight a good gliscor set (eq/spikes/toxic/protect), you are letting that shit in for free and letting max layers go all the way up. If you run into SD gliscor, that's also setting up for completely free on you. The worst part here is that you're gonna hard lose if ursabm ever decides to go hyper voice, which is a fairly common option.
3) Cresselia: A standard cress set actually does well, no footnotes. Obviously this isn't splashable counterplay though, and must suffer through the very common kingambit/encore usage in this tier. If you want to set up on gliscor, you must burn your tera to poison/steel, meaning you can't go tera blast fight for kingambit like you could in the home meta. With Encore being a strong option on every ogerpon and gliscor forcing you to tera, it's safe to say cress got worse from home to dlc.
I am ignoring shit like cm psyshock bronzong, tera ghost air balloon NG Gweezing, and other unviable gimmicks. I will also ignore counterplay that involves tera like Sub tera grass iron moth or tera grass protect leftovers heatran, because requiring a tera use to check a pokemon which hasn't used/doesn't need to use its tera is a very bad idea. Using tera to cover a hole in your teambuilding still leaves you at a significant disadvantage, because you have used your tera and your opponent is free to use theirs without fear.
Some argue that forcing ursabm to tera poison is great! So what if it turns your gliscor into set up fodder, you can still deal with it! The problem is that Minds eye Blood Moon+EP is damn near perfect coverage and no single tera type will save you defensively besides tera steel+levitate mons. So using your own tera to handle ursabm's tera is rarely an option (and even when it is, something like tera steel rotom-w is not breaking a cm tera poison ursabm). Your tera has to be offensive and punch through its massive bulk somehow, this rarely happens. In general, the better a pokemon is, the harder it will abuse tera. Not all teras are made equal, and this one is much more overwhelming than what most of OU could do.
The above counterplay is either insufficient, subpar, or not splashable in the slightest. This pokemon is absurdly strong and bulky. I will be voting BAN.
So I decided to make my honorary suspect post, but I didn't want to make it until I got reqs because I haven't been playing this meta until last week (A lot of tournaments had pre-DLC meta).
Initially before the suspect got posted I was in big favor of Manaphy being next in line but after the last couple of days, it is honestly fair for it to be Ursaluna-Blood Moon. This mon is similar to regular Ursaluna but quite different, the similarities start with the overall power, Ursaluna uses Facade, Ursaluna BM uses Blood Moon. What makes them on completely different spectrums are two things.
1. Moonlight and not taking damage to Flame Orb, you can now attach Leftovers and not worry about Ghost types switching in with your ability. Moonlight is a decently reliable form of recovery especially when combined with Tera Poison to eat the common Gliscor toxic. As Srn mentioned you can combine it with Grassy Seed or even behind Aurora Veil [Outside of Moonlight] and it can easily setup in your face (with insane bulk), people will say just Encore which is true but that can be used as the same argument as Kingambit which has not gotten banned, to be fair I think Kingambit has more counterplay then Ursaluna-Blood Moon and I think that's where the comparison stops. Having access to Moonlight especially if you want to plug it in a Sun team can be extremely beneficial.
2. Access to a priority move (Vacuum Wave), kind of what differentiates Ursaluna from Ursaluna BM is having access to a priority move that even hits Ghost types. Ursaluna could run Trailblaze or Trick Room to kind of make it really go crazy, but Ursaluna BM you don't really need support to make it better. One of its issues is definitely 4 move syndrome. It has access to a lot of good moves which I currently think is under explored. For example did you know it learns Moonblast and Taunt? What makes Kingambit the best mon in the tier is definitely Sucker Punch, if it didn't have access to that it would not be a top 10 mon in the tier, and Ursaluna BM follows similar logic.
Ursaluna is pretty annoying on team builder where you have to come up with annoying counterplay (Which lowkey down the line won't exist) (Tera Blast Electric for Corviknight or Taunt + Moonlight for Blissey switchins. Ultimately the so called counterplay isn't really counterplay when you start baiting your so called common switches. I don't think this Pokémon is that healthy for the meta, I mean when Storm Zone comes out and says that they're planning on voting ban that speaks a lot of volume since they've been DNB on everything since the beginning of SV OU. In a meta where Tera, Tera Blast, and Light Clay is banned could I see it being healthy? Maybe but currently the way the meta is heading (I don't see that happening)
I'll be voting ban.
Initially before the suspect got posted I was in big favor of Manaphy being next in line but after the last couple of days, it is honestly fair for it to be Ursaluna-Blood Moon. This mon is similar to regular Ursaluna but quite different, the similarities start with the overall power, Ursaluna uses Facade, Ursaluna BM uses Blood Moon. What makes them on completely different spectrums are two things.
1. Moonlight and not taking damage to Flame Orb, you can now attach Leftovers and not worry about Ghost types switching in with your ability. Moonlight is a decently reliable form of recovery especially when combined with Tera Poison to eat the common Gliscor toxic. As Srn mentioned you can combine it with Grassy Seed or even behind Aurora Veil [Outside of Moonlight] and it can easily setup in your face (with insane bulk), people will say just Encore which is true but that can be used as the same argument as Kingambit which has not gotten banned, to be fair I think Kingambit has more counterplay then Ursaluna-Blood Moon and I think that's where the comparison stops. Having access to Moonlight especially if you want to plug it in a Sun team can be extremely beneficial.
2. Access to a priority move (Vacuum Wave), kind of what differentiates Ursaluna from Ursaluna BM is having access to a priority move that even hits Ghost types. Ursaluna could run Trailblaze or Trick Room to kind of make it really go crazy, but Ursaluna BM you don't really need support to make it better. One of its issues is definitely 4 move syndrome. It has access to a lot of good moves which I currently think is under explored. For example did you know it learns Moonblast and Taunt? What makes Kingambit the best mon in the tier is definitely Sucker Punch, if it didn't have access to that it would not be a top 10 mon in the tier, and Ursaluna BM follows similar logic.
Ursaluna is pretty annoying on team builder where you have to come up with annoying counterplay (Which lowkey down the line won't exist) (Tera Blast Electric for Corviknight or Taunt + Moonlight for Blissey switchins. Ultimately the so called counterplay isn't really counterplay when you start baiting your so called common switches. I don't think this Pokémon is that healthy for the meta, I mean when Storm Zone comes out and says that they're planning on voting ban that speaks a lot of volume since they've been DNB on everything since the beginning of SV OU. In a meta where Tera, Tera Blast, and Light Clay is banned could I see it being healthy? Maybe but currently the way the meta is heading (I don't see that happening)
I'll be voting ban.
Alright this is plain ridiculous.
I didn't try to give my opponent mercy, I legit had to walk my auntie to the bus stop. I was able to close the match in the time it took to walk the spritely lady down the stairs.
This thing is braindead, and my only real defeats were not handling Trick better.
I didn't try to give my opponent mercy, I legit had to walk my auntie to the bus stop. I was able to close the match in the time it took to walk the spritely lady down the stairs.
This thing is braindead, and my only real defeats were not handling Trick better.
I'd say ursaluna-BM deserves a ban. I really dont think its worse than wellspring ogerpon, but in time i hope that is banned too. I've been using unaware clodsire with toxic to beat it, but if ursa goes tera poison its basically over. earthquake does like 30% super effective. Glad the sentiment is to ban
The thing with Sub Gliscor is that you're running a very suboptimal set on a 'Mon that is otherwise really good, just to handle this single threat. It makes it completely useless in the Gliscor mirror, and also lets other Sub sweepers set up all over it. It can't touch Gholdengo either.
While I don't think this per se is a problem, the fact that this niche set can still lose to BM Luna is the problem, and imo exemplifies the situation with Luna as a whole: Luna can tech options that make all of it's supposed counters bar Cresselia and Clef fall over. While you can argue it has 4MSS, it still has enough brute force to bypass most of it's supposed switch-ins and checks, and then the more niche answers to it can get smacked by a luna set like Grassy Seed BP or Hyper Voice
And then, the mons it cannot beat are easily answered by the rest of Luna's team because those answers are so niche that they accomplish very little outside of the Luna matchup. Unaware SpDef CM Clef and Cm Cress both lose to Kingambit who's on almost half the teams, unless they blow Tera, and they are encore food which drops all the momentum.
Obviously this is only taking defensive counterplay into account. Speaking from my anecdotal experience - granted, low ladder bc im hardstuck 1400s - Luna BM is so ridiculously bulky, that it often trades 2 for 1 when trying to out-offense it unless the player opposing it reads all the Luna's moves correctly and outplays it. And it can also tera to live some random revenge killer's attempt to stop it, and snag another KO. And IMO, a pokemon that is almost guaranteed to trade 2 for 1 is not a good thing to keep in the tier.
After giving it some more thought and playing against this bear myself, I'm now leaning towards BAN
While yes it does have checks, it forces great pokemon to run mediocre sets simply by existing. Spikes, Knock Off or U turn can all be really valuable and having to run Sub can really limit what Gliscor can do. Clef on Stall/Semi-Stall is used as one of the very few knock absorbers, and losing that really hinders it on the archetype, who doesn't need the positives CM Unaware Clef can bring. SpD Lando is worse than Phys Def or offensive by a great margin and CM Cress is a UU pokemon now. There are some cool techs like Grass Knot AV Hoopa but again, that's a UU pokemon.
Also while yes fitting in the tech options make it significantly easier to handle, like yes using Body Press or Hyper Voice isn't using the best Bloodmoon, but, your opponent doesn't know that. They are to assume you're the standard set and if they bring a check that loses to Hyper Voice or Taunt, BM has at least traded 1 for 1 so it hasn't actually been a burden.
One thing I still struggle to wrap my head around; it's a special attacker that can 1v1 Blissy, a special attacker that can 1v1 CALM MIND BLISSY. (I believe the chances of winning are just under 2 thirds, which is ridiculous and having this allowed feels wrong if anything)
It isn't actually helping the tier and is just forcing good pokemon to run eh sets by existing, just another Tera abusing wincon when we already have plenty in the tier, why exactly let it stay?
While yes it does have checks, it forces great pokemon to run mediocre sets simply by existing. Spikes, Knock Off or U turn can all be really valuable and having to run Sub can really limit what Gliscor can do. Clef on Stall/Semi-Stall is used as one of the very few knock absorbers, and losing that really hinders it on the archetype, who doesn't need the positives CM Unaware Clef can bring. SpD Lando is worse than Phys Def or offensive by a great margin and CM Cress is a UU pokemon now. There are some cool techs like Grass Knot AV Hoopa but again, that's a UU pokemon.
Also while yes fitting in the tech options make it significantly easier to handle, like yes using Body Press or Hyper Voice isn't using the best Bloodmoon, but, your opponent doesn't know that. They are to assume you're the standard set and if they bring a check that loses to Hyper Voice or Taunt, BM has at least traded 1 for 1 so it hasn't actually been a burden.
One thing I still struggle to wrap my head around; it's a special attacker that can 1v1 Blissy, a special attacker that can 1v1 CALM MIND BLISSY. (I believe the chances of winning are just under 2 thirds, which is ridiculous and having this allowed feels wrong if anything)
It isn't actually helping the tier and is just forcing good pokemon to run eh sets by existing, just another Tera abusing wincon when we already have plenty in the tier, why exactly let it stay?
Just got reqs, and I'm kind of stuck between votes once again. On the surface, yeah Luna-BM is pretty broken. It has the fundamentals to break through most of the meta and can tech into beating some counters with moves like Hyper Voice or Sub. Moreover, it also exerts a ton of pressure from Team Preview by existing, since giving this thing 1-2 free turns to click CM makes it borderline unkillable. I understand why most people in this thread want it banned, and I kind of do too.
That said, I'm still sort of left thinking that the only reason Luna-BM truly feels so broken is our old friend, Terastallization. With tera, Luna-BM truly goes over the edge from a strong threat to unstoppable. Tera poison in particular prevents it from being worn down via Toxic and also flips Grass and Fighting SE attacks on their head. Removing the water weakness to improve the MU against rain/greninja/waterpon is also huge. Really, it's almost becoming a meme - "Fat mon teras poison and clicks CM to win" could describe Cresselia or Clefable just as well as Luna-BM, even if those 2 aren't quite as broken or potent. And without terastallization, I think it would be much, much more possible to revenge kill Luna-BM. I have some calcs below, more meant as brainstorming ideas than hard evidence:
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 474-560 (110.2 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon in Grassy Terrain: 542-638 (126 - 148.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Focus Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 416-490 (96.7 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 392-464 (91.1 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Protosynthesis Walking Wake Surf vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 390-458 (90.6 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 390-462 (90.6 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Enamorus Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 382-450 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Yes, most of the above are choiced super effective attacks that are a roll to KO, although this is without hazards or anything. But I think it goes to show that in a SV OU without tera, there would be a lot more offensive counterplay to contain this thing, and the meta would likely be able to adapt accordingly.
So, just like with most suspect tests this generation, but especially the most recent Kingambit one - do we ban the mon because it is broken as-is, or do we not ban it because the mon itself is mostly blameless? The Kingambit one was a little bit more pointed on the tera issue, with how dynamically tera fairy/flying/dark changes its profile, but I think the two are still comparable. All of this cumulated in Kingambit getting a 55% ban vote, very close to the ban threshold but not enough. This fairly small margin makes me think that this broken on its own/broken with tera dichotomy could be the difference between a ban and DNB result.
I know Smogon isn't a strict judicial system, but I think the Kingambit DNB sort of sets a precedent here. Mons mostly broken because of tera deserve quite a bit of extra leeway. For this reason, if I had to vote right now, I'd probably go DNB, but I'm flexible either way and still open to being convinced in this thread/in OU chat/etc. Beyond Luna-BM, it also opens the question of what exactly could Smogon ban if Luna-BM escapes the axe, and how tiering guidelines should evolve to accommodate generational gimmicks. Worded another way, if we can admit to ourselves "We like tera and we want to keep it, even if it is kind of totally broken", then we by definition find ourselves in a broken-checks-broken sort of situation, and perhaps the threshold to ban becomes much higher accordingly.
That said, I'm still sort of left thinking that the only reason Luna-BM truly feels so broken is our old friend, Terastallization. With tera, Luna-BM truly goes over the edge from a strong threat to unstoppable. Tera poison in particular prevents it from being worn down via Toxic and also flips Grass and Fighting SE attacks on their head. Removing the water weakness to improve the MU against rain/greninja/waterpon is also huge. Really, it's almost becoming a meme - "Fat mon teras poison and clicks CM to win" could describe Cresselia or Clefable just as well as Luna-BM, even if those 2 aren't quite as broken or potent. And without terastallization, I think it would be much, much more possible to revenge kill Luna-BM. I have some calcs below, more meant as brainstorming ideas than hard evidence:
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 474-560 (110.2 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon in Grassy Terrain: 542-638 (126 - 148.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Focus Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 416-490 (96.7 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 392-464 (91.1 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Protosynthesis Walking Wake Surf vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 390-458 (90.6 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 390-462 (90.6 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Enamorus Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 382-450 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Yes, most of the above are choiced super effective attacks that are a roll to KO, although this is without hazards or anything. But I think it goes to show that in a SV OU without tera, there would be a lot more offensive counterplay to contain this thing, and the meta would likely be able to adapt accordingly.
So, just like with most suspect tests this generation, but especially the most recent Kingambit one - do we ban the mon because it is broken as-is, or do we not ban it because the mon itself is mostly blameless? The Kingambit one was a little bit more pointed on the tera issue, with how dynamically tera fairy/flying/dark changes its profile, but I think the two are still comparable. All of this cumulated in Kingambit getting a 55% ban vote, very close to the ban threshold but not enough. This fairly small margin makes me think that this broken on its own/broken with tera dichotomy could be the difference between a ban and DNB result.
I know Smogon isn't a strict judicial system, but I think the Kingambit DNB sort of sets a precedent here. Mons mostly broken because of tera deserve quite a bit of extra leeway. For this reason, if I had to vote right now, I'd probably go DNB, but I'm flexible either way and still open to being convinced in this thread/in OU chat/etc. Beyond Luna-BM, it also opens the question of what exactly could Smogon ban if Luna-BM escapes the axe, and how tiering guidelines should evolve to accommodate generational gimmicks. Worded another way, if we can admit to ourselves "We like tera and we want to keep it, even if it is kind of totally broken", then we by definition find ourselves in a broken-checks-broken sort of situation, and perhaps the threshold to ban becomes much higher accordingly.
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While this is a valid point, this suspect is for Ursaluna-BM, and not Tera. The outcome of the previous Tera vote means that Tera is unrestricted, and as such every Quickban & Suspect test for individual mons has to account for them being able to abuse this mechanic. You do make a good argument that there are people voting on the basis that Tera is what breaks it, rather than the mon itself being broken, and this swinging a vote as a result. I agree that whilst maybe there needs be a shift in how generational mechanics are viewed & tiered around, this suspect isn't the place for it.
Right now, going "I think Tera is what breaks this mon" effectively means you're saying that the mon is broken, because the metagame does not allow it to stop abusing Tera. It is part of a mons skillset in this generation, just as much as movepool and abilities are. You should absolutely factor in Tera when voting in this suspect, and if you think Tera makes Luna BM banworthy, that's what you should be voting.
It's also not like pokemon cannot get unbanned if circumstances change. If Tera ends up getting restricted in the future, a bunch of ubers may get dropped / retested, and Luna could be one of them.
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I took notes of every usage of the bear in SCL Week 1. Suffice it to say it put in heavy work. My favorite ones were a Moonblast doing over half to a Dragonite through Multiscale, and lax nearly getting 5 kills with the bear had he not misclicked.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/scl-iii-ou-discussion-thread.3728005/post-9805959
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/scl-iii-ou-discussion-thread.3728005/post-9805959
Why are you running Toxic Orb Sneasler instead of like Grassy Seed Unburden?
For those of you who think Encore is a way of stopping Bloodluna, think again:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1958224811
(See turn 19)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1958224811
(See turn 19)
Honestly I'd say DNB, this is not a mega rayquaza situation, there is counterplay and firepower to get passed the defenses. The real problem is tera that always gets a kill for blood moon, in other words is not inherently broken.
Bronzong being viable makes me happy tho! I remember I used to run zong stall in shed tail meta
Bronzong being viable makes me happy tho! I remember I used to run zong stall in shed tail meta
It might be because Bliss is not a real counter, that's why you poison it while playing stall - it highly decreases the chances you get struck by a critical hit before the bear dies. So the real problem is tera
Because I'm using Bloodmoon Ursaluna, I can literally do whatever the fuck I want at that point.
???????
This isn't ubers. There is extremely limited counterplay, and even vs offense it still does well.
It's broken in a tera and that's where it's being judged. Whether it's not broken without tera is not relevant at this point.
Bronzong being viable makes me happy tho! I remember I used to run zong stall in shed tail meta
Bronzong is not viable.
Let's see it as "bloodmoon is hard to kill due to its bulk" but that is also true for Kingambit
Then let's see it as "bloodmoon is hard to kill do to tera, because it can resist most attacks" but that is also true for Kingambit
Then something easier "bloodmoon gets one kill at worst" but that is true for Kingambit too
Then, "there is no viable offensive pokémon that can 1hko bloodmoon" this is fake, ogerpon kills it very easily for example
Then what is the problem with this pokémon? Being inwalleable indeed invalidates bulky offense, but so does walking wake that always burns a tera water from the opponent
Then let's see it as "bloodmoon is hard to kill do to tera, because it can resist most attacks" but that is also true for Kingambit
Then something easier "bloodmoon gets one kill at worst" but that is true for Kingambit too
Then, "there is no viable offensive pokémon that can 1hko bloodmoon" this is fake, ogerpon kills it very easily for example
Then what is the problem with this pokémon? Being inwalleable indeed invalidates bulky offense, but so does walking wake that always burns a tera water from the opponent
I'm just gonna say it, keep the bear it is cool af
I'm just gonna say it, ursaluna bloodmoon is encore setup fodder get real
I am sure you're joking. Nevertheless let's entertain your argument.
We all know what Ursaluna counterplay is by this point, and it's reflected well in monthly usage stats (single handedly made Blissey OU). The point is, yu can't rely on encore solely to beat BM, since you will be in great trouble if your encore user dies. If you have multiple encore users in the team just for Luna, it means Luna it's overcentralizing in the meta.
Putting multiple dedicated counterplay for one just mon restricts teambuilding. If you have ever played OU outside low ladder, you should be familiar with what's healthy and unhealthy for the meta. Tera Poison Ursaluna in Grassy terrain absolutely warps the meta around it, and teams without dedicated counterplay for it are force to trade or sack multiple mons. Unlike something like Waking Wake, Ursaluna checks aren't the most splashable in OU, and they can't be fit on most teams.
I will be voting ban.
Having used and faced this Pokemon on a lot of offensive playstyles, I'll say that this Pokemon is not entirely flawless. Its base special bulk isn't amazing, which give it some iffy 1v1s vs some key special threats in the metagame such as Walking Wake and Greninja. It also can struggle with a few other top tier offensive threats such as Ogerpon-Wellspring, which can also checkmate greedy Bloodmoon Ursaluna which go for Calm Mind with Encore. I feel that Baxcalibur and Heartflame Ogerpon warped the metagame to a greater extent than Ursaluna.
Nonetheless, Bloodmoon Ursaluna's effect on the metagame is quite similar to the aforementioned Pokemon in how it exerts a high threat level while simultaneously having an extremely narrow pool of viable answers. This Pokemon has fantastic 1v1s vs many key metagame staples such as Cinderace, Certain Dragapult variants, certain Iron Valiant variants, Kingambit, and many slower Pokemon. Ursaluna's fantastic bulk gives it ample oppurtunities to be positioned to launch its powerful Blood moons to pick up KOes. To put Ursaluna's bulk into perspective, it can survive a super effective Close Combat from certain Sneasler and Iron Valiant variants and promptly KO them back.
252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 338-398 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Blood Moon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 388-457 (134.2 - 158.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This Pokemon is similar to Chi-Yu where it can be positioned against passive defensive threats to pose a massive threat with Calm Mind and Blood Moon. Calm Mind is particularly dangerous on this Pokemon because it will patch up its one defensive weakness and it will make it drastically harder for key special threats such as Iron Moth and Gholdengo to pressure it with high damage. Because of this Pokemon's high power level and bulk, I feel it does fine enough vs offensive structures if positioned well, as these teams typically aren't able to knock Ursaluna out from full, while Ursaluna itself can pick up KOes quite easily on the counter attack. Balance teams folded quite easily to Ursaluna as it can use the weak, passive Pokemon on that playstyle as an easy entry point to either begin nuking or setting up.
I have used multiple offensive teams with Ursaluna-BM while laddering for suspect. Typically the two playstyles I saw it fit best on were Veil and Grassy Terrain, for obvious reasons. Both of these augment its high bulk even further. Regardless of the variant I used, it was not uncommon to see Ursaluna trade 1-for-2 or 1-for-3 most games.
Naturally, Ursaluna's high bulk and power make it a top tier Tera abuser as well. The two variants I ran were Tera Normal and Tera Poison. Tera Normal is a fantastic nuke in the early game and is quite reliable at forcing high damage / KOes on Pokemon such as Zapdos, Rillaboom, and Zamazenta, as well as other Ursalunas. Tera Poison takes a more methodical approach to sweeping, turning "answers" such as Gliscor and Corvikinght into easy setup fodder. Ursaluna is able push the advantage it gains from Tera quite far, particularly since it will let it pick up 1-2 additional KOes while making it drastically harder for the opponent to dance around it.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, Ursaluna's movepool, though limited, give it all the tools it needs to dance around whatever counterplay might develop to it. Body Press and Focus Blast destroys random Tera Steel Levitators, Hyper Voice destroys Sub users, and Vaccum Wave lets its pick up some additional damage on faster checks. Of course, it can't run all these sets at once, but Blood Moon lets this Pokemon exert enough pressure on its own. These additional options just make whatever limited options that exist to deal with it more unreliable than they already are.
Overall, I do not think Ursaluna Bloodmoon has a place in this tier and believe it would be much healthier if it were banned.
Having used and faced this Pokemon on a lot of offensive playstyles, I'll say that this Pokemon is not entirely flawless. Its base special bulk isn't amazing, which give it some iffy 1v1s vs some key special threats in the metagame such as Walking Wake and Greninja. It also can struggle with a few other top tier offensive threats such as Ogerpon-Wellspring, which can also checkmate greedy Bloodmoon Ursaluna which go for Calm Mind with Encore. I feel that Baxcalibur and Heartflame Ogerpon warped the metagame to a greater extent than Ursaluna.
Nonetheless, Bloodmoon Ursaluna's effect on the metagame is quite similar to the aforementioned Pokemon in how it exerts a high threat level while simultaneously having an extremely narrow pool of viable answers. This Pokemon has fantastic 1v1s vs many key metagame staples such as Cinderace, Certain Dragapult variants, certain Iron Valiant variants, Kingambit, and many slower Pokemon. Ursaluna's fantastic bulk gives it ample oppurtunities to be positioned to launch its powerful Blood moons to pick up KOes. To put Ursaluna's bulk into perspective, it can survive a super effective Close Combat from certain Sneasler and Iron Valiant variants and promptly KO them back.
252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 338-398 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Blood Moon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 388-457 (134.2 - 158.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This Pokemon is similar to Chi-Yu where it can be positioned against passive defensive threats to pose a massive threat with Calm Mind and Blood Moon. Calm Mind is particularly dangerous on this Pokemon because it will patch up its one defensive weakness and it will make it drastically harder for key special threats such as Iron Moth and Gholdengo to pressure it with high damage. Because of this Pokemon's high power level and bulk, I feel it does fine enough vs offensive structures if positioned well, as these teams typically aren't able to knock Ursaluna out from full, while Ursaluna itself can pick up KOes quite easily on the counter attack. Balance teams folded quite easily to Ursaluna as it can use the weak, passive Pokemon on that playstyle as an easy entry point to either begin nuking or setting up.
I have used multiple offensive teams with Ursaluna-BM while laddering for suspect. Typically the two playstyles I saw it fit best on were Veil and Grassy Terrain, for obvious reasons. Both of these augment its high bulk even further. Regardless of the variant I used, it was not uncommon to see Ursaluna trade 1-for-2 or 1-for-3 most games.
Naturally, Ursaluna's high bulk and power make it a top tier Tera abuser as well. The two variants I ran were Tera Normal and Tera Poison. Tera Normal is a fantastic nuke in the early game and is quite reliable at forcing high damage / KOes on Pokemon such as Zapdos, Rillaboom, and Zamazenta, as well as other Ursalunas. Tera Poison takes a more methodical approach to sweeping, turning "answers" such as Gliscor and Corvikinght into easy setup fodder. Ursaluna is able push the advantage it gains from Tera quite far, particularly since it will let it pick up 1-2 additional KOes while making it drastically harder for the opponent to dance around it.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, Ursaluna's movepool, though limited, give it all the tools it needs to dance around whatever counterplay might develop to it. Body Press and Focus Blast destroys random Tera Steel Levitators, Hyper Voice destroys Sub users, and Vaccum Wave lets its pick up some additional damage on faster checks. Of course, it can't run all these sets at once, but Blood Moon lets this Pokemon exert enough pressure on its own. These additional options just make whatever limited options that exist to deal with it more unreliable than they already are.
Overall, I do not think Ursaluna Bloodmoon has a place in this tier and believe it would be much healthier if it were banned.
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and now let's see it as "bloodmoon is broken and deserves to be banned", which is also true for kingambit. this is the worst example of whataboutism i've seen in this thread
Deserve to get banned? Maybe, perhaps even probably.
But it didn't get banned, and it not getting banned sets a small amount of precedent.
Using Gambit not getting banned, which you claim is because people wanted Tera banned, as precedent for a totally different Pokemon in a totally different stage of the metagame when you have no data or conclusions to prove this besides personal inferences is just not how precedent works or is applied in tiering. If anything, it’s you saying that there is a problem and acting to keep it within the tier for the sake of flimsy reasoning.
Tera isn’t the topic of the suspect and the OP of this — and every other suspect — specifically says that other suspects and topics that are alternatives aren’t to be discussed here. Tera is still being discussed and may be addressed if there’s ample support, but using that to block this, especially when something Tera focused being banned can be used as evidence for Tera, is not ideal.
I’ll be the first to admit I think Gambit should’ve been banned and Tera is a huge component of that Pokemon function, but this is the incorrect hill to die on.
I didn't mention tera in that comment, I was just responding to the Kingambit example. If we look at Kingambit and conclude that it's not quite banworthy, then for something to be banworthy, it should probably be a bit more broken than Kingambit, correct?
I don’t really think it works that way; I think that what the community decides on the whole shouldn’t be your bar. Your personal opinion should be the bar. Every individual voter has their own decision to make just like every individual poster does. Just because 40 or 45% feel differently than you doesn’t suddenly make your opinion wrong or make everything relative to that exact data point.
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