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np: UU - A New Beginning

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I've had some pretty funny moments running pure offensive LO Raikou running CM/Tbolt/HP Water/Extrasensory. I've also seen some sets running Shadow Ball, Signal Beam, or the occasional HP fire. HP fire is pretty good for grasses/steelix/magneton, but you end up having a problem with other ground types (though you can run extrasensory for nidos, or shadow ball for claydol which probably won't come anywhere near you at first anyhow). That's the trick with Raikou - most often the pokemon weak to grass/ice are a bit sketchy about switching into you in the first place, which explains why everyone is running registeel and steelix.

Really though, talking about Raikou getting walled by Chansey in UU probably would send anyone who hasn't played competitive pokemon since advance into serious shock. Raikou is in UU and one of the few things it has going for it as far as staying is that it's walled by a NFE?! Total collapse right there.
 
IMO, Shaymin, Raikou or Entei will draw more fire before starraptor. Star can't switch into faster pokemon with those defenses. Its incredibly predictable and ghost pokemon counter half its general moveset. Brave bird generally equals suicide (as does double edge) due to its paltry 60 base health with no leftover bonus. He also does a nice little number upon the head of Spiritomb so I reckon he's pretty safe for now, considering how much more powerful(opinion) sweepers such as Raikou and Shaymin are on the table.

Currently, my 'secret tech' is EarlyRest Kangaskahn; Return + Aqua tail covers all pokemon in UU, giving you one slot for support (Light screen, knock off, toxic, sunny day or sand storm for weather counter, etc). She has enough defenses to weather all sorts of blows and her speed and attack are also pretty good. My biggest problem at the moment is Raikou, who'd have swept me clean a number if I hadn't been playing sash-yanma with whirlwind at the time XD.
 
Eo Ut Mortus said:
Out of curiosity, how does everyone deal with Abomasnow? Not necessarily the whole Hail thing, but the Pokemon itself. In particular, the set of Substitute/Leech Seed/Blizzard/Focus Punch. Clefable is probably a good answer, but a smart opponent will Focus Punch rather than Substitute on the switch.
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The thing about Abomasnow is you don't know whether it's going to be the SubSeedPunch set (for which I can use Blastoise to sponge attacks and Roar out any subs) or a choice scarf set with Blizzard/Wood Hammer/Earthquake/Focus Punch (which I don't think anything in UU could actually safely handle).

kamikazeking05, yes, even a max speed +nature Electrode is outsped by scarfed base 80's with a +nature and 228 EVs.
 
Nasty Plot Crobat is one of the best sweepers I've been using right now in a random account of mine. Offensive teams usualy lack a way of countering/outspeeding it and it has plenty of opportunities to setup (Shaymin, Gallade etc). Nasty Plot/Air Slash/Heat Wave/Roost is the moveset I use, and nothing barring Rock Types (that aren't common) and Thunderwave Chansey can wall it.

This, or revenge killing, which sometimes he can take a hit. It's quite bulky!
 
.Sulphur said:
Nasty Plot Crobat is one of the best sweepers I've been using right now in a random account of mine. Offensive teams usualy lack a way of countering/outspeeding it and it has plenty of opportunities to setup (Shaymin, Gallade etc). Nasty Plot/Air Slash/Heat Wave/Roost is the moveset I use, and nothing barring Rock Types (that aren't common) and Thunderwave Chansey can wall it.

This, or revenge killing, which sometimes he can take a hit. It's quite bulky!
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Lanturn walls it too! That one was off the top of my head because I am using one on my most recent team. Although I came across a Sludge Bomb variant just before that CH'd my Lanturn after switching in on Nasty Plot, and went on to sweep. I personally think that NP Crobat needs the raw power of Sludge Bomb to effectively sweep given its mediocre base 70 special attack. There are more than just Rock types, Chansey and Lanturn that can beat that set. 0/0 Raikou takes what, 65% average from NP/LO Heat Wave then OHKOs back? You'd need to weaken the team A LOT before trying to sweep.

Even if I didn't have Lanturn, I'd just bring in my Clefable and Encore whatever then work from there. Crobat won't be beating it without some ridiculous amount of flinch hax. Can be effective lategame though.
 
Lanturn is such an uncommon pokemon with everyone using offensive teams that I didn't even remember he existed heh.

what makes Air Slash effective in my opinion is the high ammount of flying weak pokemon right now. Shaymin, Gallade, Medicham, Blaziken, Haryiama, Pinsir etc, which you can attack right away if you don't have the time to setup. Sludge Bomb doesn't solve the Rock problem too, not to mention ground-types now... But yeah I never tested Sludge Bomb and it may prove to be effective, especially against Raikou. I'll test it latter :P

and sure, you also won't be sweeping eveything right of the bat (pun not intended), but when some key threats are weakened, he's one of the best cleaner I've used.
 
I prefer the raw power of Sludge Bomb as compared to Air Slash's flinch rate and 5% miss chance.

I've been seeing a lot of Clefables and Foresight Tops and Blastoises. Still a gimmick?
 
QibingZero said:
I've had some pretty funny moments running pure offensive LO Raikou running CM/Tbolt/HP Water/Extrasensory. I've also seen some sets running Shadow Ball, Signal Beam, or the occasional HP fire. HP fire is pretty good for grasses/steelix/magneton, but you end up having a problem with other ground types (though you can run extrasensory for nidos, or shadow ball for claydol which probably won't come anywhere near you at first anyhow). That's the trick with Raikou - most often the pokemon weak to grass/ice are a bit sketchy about switching into you in the first place, which explains why everyone is running registeel and steelix.

Really though, talking about Raikou getting walled by Chansey in UU probably would send anyone who hasn't played competitive pokemon since advance into serious shock. Raikou is in UU and one of the few things it has going for it as far as staying is that it's walled by a NFE?! Total collapse right there.
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Well, it's important to remember that the in-game status of a Pokemon means nothing. Chansey's stats, movepool, ability, etc. determines how well it does in battle, not whether it's fully-evolved or not. It's like those that are saying that Shaymin, etc. shouldn't be in UU because it isn't a legendary. If Blissey didn't exist, Chansey probably would be OU anyway.

And personally, I wouldn't be shocked if I hadn't played since Advance. Even in Advance and GSC, if you go and check, you'll see Chansey was BL. Chansey is probably the 2nd best special wall in the game. I remember it used to be used in RBY anything goes because it was the best Amnesia Mewtwo wall.
 
Helios said:
IMO, Shaymin, Raikou or Entei will draw more fire before starraptor. Star can't switch into faster pokemon with those defenses. Its incredibly predictable and ghost pokemon counter half its general moveset. Brave bird generally equals suicide (as does double edge) due to its paltry 60 base health with no leftover bonus. He also does a nice little number upon the head of Spiritomb so I reckon he's pretty safe for now, considering how much more powerful(opinion) sweepers such as Raikou and Shaymin are on the table.
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Sorry, but Staraptor has 85 base HP, which in reality, is pretty good for a sweeper like Staraptor.

Heh, on another note, I decided to play a little bit this weekend (though none for the weekdays until exams are over). I tried out a new team since Wynaut got banned. This one has Scarf Butterfree as the lead, and it actually does pretty good and it can come in pretty easily if the opponent was a SR lead.

Butterfree @Choice Scarf
EVs: 248 HP/232 Spe/28 SpA
Compoundeyes
Timid Nature

- Bug Buzz
- U-Turn
- Sleep Powder
- Stun Spore

This stops those damn Froslass leads and such from setting up their damn Spikes and stuff. It also basically stop anything that isn't a fast Scarfer or Honchkrow/Vigoroth/Hypno/Banette (the only one I really see is Honchkrow). It puts the team at a pretty good advantage early in the match, and it can come in later and use those 4x resists to paralyze/sleep more things (if the other thing woke up).

The EV spread allows it to come in on SR twice, and also allows it to at least take some advantage of its non-shitty special defense stat (he can still take Close Combats pretty well though!). 232 Speed EVs allow him to beat out Swellow by 2 points with a Choice Scarf on. I made it surpass Swellow by 2 points since I know 384 Speed can be a common benchmark for Scarfers, so it beats them by 1. Then I dropped the excess EVs into Special Attack to give Bug Buzz a little more bite when it hits something super effectively.
 
So you're basically sacrificing a whole team slot that could have been filled by the MUCH more effective Roserade who can not only absorb toxic spikes but can also do something BESIDES sleep things all while hitting a much higher speed, solely for the purpose of a more reliable sleep? Doesn't seem worth it to me, especially with that awful stealth rock weakness.
 
Seems like you'd be better off sashing Butterfree. Guarantees you a Sleep on the lead, then you can stun the switch-in. For novelty, you could even try Tailwind. Butterfree's almost certainly going down after the double powder, and doubled speed for 4 turns is pretty appealing.
 
Bologo said:
Heh, on another note, I decided to play a little bit this weekend (though none for the weekdays until exams are over). I tried out a new team since Wynaut got banned. This one has Scarf Butterfree as the lead, and it actually does pretty good and it can come in pretty easily if the opponent was a SR lead.

Butterfree @Choice Scarf
EVs: 248 HP/232 Spe/28 SpA
Compoundeyes
Timid Nature

- Bug Buzz
- U-Turn
- Sleep Powder
- Stun Spore

This stops those damn Froslass leads and such from setting up their damn Spikes and stuff. It also basically stop anything that isn't a fast Scarfer or Honchkrow/Vigoroth/Hypno/Banette (the only one I really see is Honchkrow). It puts the team at a pretty good advantage early in the match, and it can come in later and use those 4x resists to paralyze/sleep more things (if the other thing woke up).
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The thing about Scarfed sleep inducers is this: how often do Pokemon stay asleep for more than three turns? Because that is the requirement for actually gaining an advantage, i.e. a free turn. Think about it, you use Sleep Powder before they move, they fall asleep, they end the turn with already one 'fast asleep!' message passed. Due to the scarf you are forced to switch whilst the Pokemon you just slept has a chance to wake up this very turn. If this happens you've actually lost a turn of momentum. The more likely scenario however is they wake up the following turn, but that just leaves you back to square one, expect that the opponent has the advantage of knowing two of your Pokemon.

Then again, at least Butterfree has a somewhat reliable sleep inducing move. Scarfed Roserade is worse for this as not ony do you run the same risks as above, you are also ten times more likely to miss.

Scarfed sleep is very overrated IMO.
 
Actually most people switch out after their pokemon is sleeped. Pokes that stay in while asleep basically allow you to throw down spikes or set up on them. Opponents will usually switch out because of this. Perhaps you stay in after getting after asleep, IMO its too risky and gives you're opponent too much of an advantage to try to beat the RNG generator.
 
If they outsped you when they shouldn't have you will know that they are scarfed into their sleep move meaning that it may be a better option to attempt to wake up rather than just switch blindly.
 
Pokemon: Dragonair

HP 61
Atk 84
Def 65
SpA 70
SpD 70
Spe 70

Total: 420

I say that those stats are credible. Maybe the HP and Def could be a bit higher, but it's okay. Here is an example moveset:

DragonScarf
EVs: Just put most into attack
Moveset:
Outrage
Agility
Iron Tail
Flamethrower

Outrage to get Dragons, Agility to get some extra Speed, Iron Tail to get a powerful attack, and Flamethrower for Steel types. Even though Flamethrower is a Special move, Dragonair's Special Attack isn't that bad.

I think that it isn't an OU lite because it has a different, maybe superior type, and a different, in my opinion better ability.
 
Pure Dragon is pretty snazzy typing, and Dragonair has a list of moves, from offensive to support. Decent ability. Too bad his stats suck in general.

He could probably pull off some sort of mixed set, with his access to STAB Draco Meteor and Outrage. Altaria can pull that off too, but pure Dragon is better, and Dragonair has slightly better attack (84 vs. 70) but lower SpA (70 vs. 80).

Still, I doubt he could be that good.
 
I do see a small niche for Dragonair, and that is its potential at using Draco Meteor and Outrage to do good damage against a lot of pokemon. Out of the Gabite, him, and Shelgon, he pulls it off the best with a passable 70 base SpA stat. With few steels to resist the combination, it could be quite deadly, as they are such overpowered attacks.

I just ran some calcs with a 252 Atk/252 SpA, +SpA nature Dragonair against three popular walls right now.

Spiritomb is easily KOed by Draco Meteor and Outrage (basically always). It always KOes Slowbro too.

Meanwhile, it has a greater than 50% chance of KOing a 148 hp/252 Def Bold Milotic after SR. However, this doesn't actually happen because Milotic can simply recover off (easily outspeeds).

You can use Fire Blast for Steelix (82% minimum to a 252 hp/136 SpD one).

You don't even need the last slot unlike Salamence (because of stuff like Heatran and Blissey); you could probably run Thunder Wave.

Agility however, looks like a pretty good choice there, hitting 316 even with a -Speed nature.

Altaria is faster, and hits harder with Draco Meteor (but has a weaker Outrage). However, Altaria does have to take 25% from SR, and has that extra Rock weakness (and 4x weak to ice) so who knows....maybe Dragonair can do something after all. And Dragonair does have Agility.

So overall, now that I look at it, Dragonair looks like it could be a pretty decent mixed attacker/wall breaker. Pretty horrid defensive stats though, and no immunities, which means that even with those awesome resists, he still can't come in. Draco Meteor is his saving grace though.

I don't do UU too much, so anyone wanna try him out?

Possibly:

Dragonair @ Life Orb
Shed Skin
252 Atk/252 SpA/4 Hp
Quiet
-Draco Meteor
-Outrage
-Fire Blast/Flamethrower
-Filler (Agility, T-Wave)
 
12345 said:
Pokemon: Dragonair

HP 61
Atk 84
Def 65
SpA 70
SpD 70
Spe 70

Total: 420

I say that those stats are credible. Maybe the HP and Def could be a bit higher, but it's okay. Here is an example moveset:

DragonScarf
EVs: Just put most into attack
Moveset:
Outrage
Agility
Iron Tail
Flamethrower

Outrage to get Dragons, Agility to get some extra Speed, Iron Tail to get a powerful attack, and Flamethrower for Steel types. Even though Flamethrower is a Special move, Dragonair's Special Attack isn't that bad.

I think that it isn't an OU lite because it has a different, maybe superior type, and a different, in my opinion better ability.
Click to expand...

Have you playtested this POS set you have come up with?
 
12345's Dragonair is pretty useless it seems. I am not sure why he chose those moves. Dragonair should abuse Outrage and Draco Meteor if it wants to be used.

I doubt he knows what he is talking about....
 
12345 said:
Pokemon: Dragonair

HP 61
Atk 84
Def 65
SpA 70
SpD 70
Spe 70

Total: 420

I say that those stats are credible. Maybe the HP and Def could be a bit higher, but it's okay. Here is an example moveset:

DragonScarf
EVs: Just put most into attack
Moveset:
Outrage
Agility
Iron Tail
Flamethrower
Click to expand...

You're probably better off using Altaria. He's much bulkier, has a bigger movepool (roost, earthquake), and his slightly higher speed makes dragon dance better than agility, making up for his lower attack. Neither Ice nor Rock are very common in UU, so the flying type isn't that much of a burden. Plus, with Roost, he can have a couple of tries at a sweep. Finally, even without defensive EV's, he can help take hits from Shaymin, Roselia, Arcanine, Typhlosion, and the ever-present choiced fighting types.

The cons of Altaria vs. Dragonite would be Stealth Rock damage, rock weak, more ice weak, and less attack off the bat, but I don't think there is much that Dragonair beats that Altaria doesn't, especially considering Dragonair's pitiful defenses.
 
As far as Dragonair goes, how about something along the following lines?

Dragonair@LO/Lefties/Chesto Berry/other
Shed Skin

Dragon Dance
Rest
Outrage
Waterfall/Thunder Wave/Fire Blast/Flamethrower/Haze/Light Screen.

DD up, Rest, Outrage. Waterfall/Fire Blast/Flamethrower can hit steels, T-wave for status, Haze for, well, hazing if you need it, or can set up light screen. Viable?
 
That T-Wave/Draco Meteor/Outrage/Fire Blast Life Orb set is quite interesting. I'm going to try it, those calcs are surprisingly solid. I never thought that Dragonair would OHKO Spiritomb or Slowbro in one hit. But without solid paralysis/screen support hard to use. Substitute would be usable (to play like Giratina-O style) but with Life Orb it would be troublesome. Maybe in new UU it's not that great, but in future NU I see it being quite usable with even weaker (probably) steels like Bastiodon, Mawile or Wormadam-S to handle hits (and good luck with taking Fire Blasts with Worma-S and Mawile).

EDIT: Yeah, Registeel walls Dragonair, but you still have steel trappers to deal with Registeel, so I don't think it's that bad. And to be honest only Registeel and Steelix are used quite often used as steel types in UU (and you can deal with Steelix quite well), so I still see some use for that set.
 
Dragonair Fire Blast does ok damage to Registeel. Against a positive natured, 252/100 Registeel (basically split defensively) it does 41.48% - 48.90%. A 3HKO assuming you didn't DM on the switch (and if you Outraged on the switch you'll definitely be forced to switch).

By contrast, a Registeel Iron Head deals 37.64% - 44.11% damage to Dragonair, which can be a 2hko after life orb damage.

Also, to clarify Chenman333s calcs, he meant if you use Draco Meteor as well as outrage on those walls, they'll be ko'd (meaning if a slowbro switched in on draco meteor and then was hit by outrage as well it would be ko'd).

Just ran the calc myself and DM from 252 SA + nature dragonair does 67.01% - 78.68%damage to a 252/0 bold slowbro.
Outrage from the same Dragonair does 36.29% - 42.64%damage to a 252/252 bold slowbro. Counting lefties, Slowbro has a slim chance of surviving both attacks if SR is not present.
 
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