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- Thread starter reachzero
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The only one that even has a case for it, IMO, is Milotic. And even then it may be a necessary evil and, once again, the defensive characterstic is ridiculous to fill and just by using that, Milotic doesn't fit.
I could see Moltres getting some noms again, but I really just don't see it. Keep your damn rocks up and it is neutered from the get go. If it wasn't broken with whorelass support it isn't broken now IMO.
I could see Moltres getting some noms again, but I really just don't see it. Keep your damn rocks up and it is neutered from the get go. If it wasn't broken with whorelass support it isn't broken now IMO.
I just nominated Rhyperior. I don't REALLY think it's that broken, but since you guys who worked hard to make voting requirements deserve something to vote on, I nominated something. Have fun!!
EDIT: Yes, I do think Milotic is a necessary evil. There are SO many Offensive Pokemon just would just love to see Milotic gone, and as a result would mean a lot of very powerful threats that can wreak havoc. It's like the p53 gene. Knock it out, and you'll find tumours all over your body.
EDIT: Yes, I do think Milotic is a necessary evil. There are SO many Offensive Pokemon just would just love to see Milotic gone, and as a result would mean a lot of very powerful threats that can wreak havoc. It's like the p53 gene. Knock it out, and you'll find tumours all over your body.
A lot of people have posted "No suspects". Guys, I'm pretty sure that you have to back it up, you can't just say no suspects and leave it at that.
Hmm, Milotic is currently the only likely suspect(sorry shrang, I don't think Rhyperior will make it :P ). Maybe that rating will be useful after all...
Hmm, Milotic is currently the only likely suspect(sorry shrang, I don't think Rhyperior will make it :P ). Maybe that rating will be useful after all...
I've had varying success with a specially defensive Omastar lead and with GK/SR/TW/Psychic Mesprit. that Uxie, Ambipom, and Mesprit claim the top three leads, I'm thinking Spiritomb or an older Mismagius with Taunt/D.Bond I had been using to some success in the Raikou/Froslass metagame.
shrang does have a point about rhyperior. It DOES pave the way for a physical sweeper...
Also, this is the first time i've ever voted. Is this the process that leads to that little white tick badge? :)
Also, this is the first time i've ever voted. Is this the process that leads to that little white tick badge? :)
I couldn't really see how to back it up without bringing up specific examples, which would most likely be:
specific examples of what I used to show how diverse the metagame was,
or
specific arguments against certain suspects.
The first one can get annoying even in this megathread, while the second one requires you to respond to other posts (otherwise, what suspects to argue against?), which the voting thread doesn't allow.
As such, I basically just said that while there are standards, they don't overpower everything else to the point that diversity isn't viable. Without responding to other arguments, there isn't much to say, considering that it's a negative position, like "no favorite color" or something like that.
UU voters get the green tick badge :)
Also I posted in a nom thread for the first time just now. I don't think that there's much to say because it's quite readily apparent that everything in UU has multiple counters or at least very reliable checks.
awesome, the green one looks cooler lol. How many times do you have to vote to get it? Sorry, just never really understood. I agree, basically all pokemon in uu have more than one check right now
Lol we need moar suspects! I made upper reqs and I'm gonna vote...ffffff xD. Anyway, I do kind of see the whole no suspects thing, in fact, I was going to write that up in the nomination thread. I voted for milotic because I do believe that it is a hard defensive pokemon to take down. Actually, on my more defensively inclined teams, I find myself callin gon her more that any other pokemon. Why do people run her as their bulky water on a balanced/offensive team? Because she checks soooo much. Take a team of frail bitches, slap on a milotic and you've got a solid team apparently. I've done it a few times this round, so I can attest to her ability. Also, the RestTalk set with surf/ice beam is hella hard to take down. Grass types are so scared of being 2HKOed by her, it makes it hard to switch in. Just my two cents...happy voting!
I agree, and voted likewise! Just because a Pokemon has counters doesn't mean it can't be suspect. Also, to see a Pokemon become suspect on defensive capabilities alone would be very interesting. Another thing, I am interested why so many people voted no suspects. Most didn't even leave a reason why.
unfortunately, the most common venusaur, LO special, can switch in on ALL of milos attacks, and ohko with leaf storm. It can then simply heal up with synthesis. That's why i consider milo non broken, since the most common pokemon by far counters her
Any Venusaur that isn't running Power Whip or Leech seed, Milotic can deal with. Sure it can't switch in directly to Venusaur, but it can come in on a -2 Leaf Storm, and just keep recovering until Venusaur is at -6, and Leaf Storm does around 30%.
I've had my Milotic survive a LO Leaf Storm from Venu, but it was Calm with a bit of SpD ev's.
Anyways it seems like we have our first 'real' defensive suspect in Milotic. Seems us voters have our work cut out for us. I for one would hate to see it leave.
If you make it to the voter list, you get the checkmark (but you lose it if you don't make the next test's voter list). If you make any voter list four times, you can PM Aeolus about it and he might give you the wing thingy.
Also, I'm all for nominating suspects. I just strongly believe that none of them are broken. I believe this because while BLs typically had checks and still got voted BL, Milotic and others have counters or at least extremely reliable checks. I also alluded to a "Salamence-grade" status for the top threats.
Though I'd like to say that the nominations this time around are very good reads.
Honestly I really can't imagine a UU without Milo. If you think random shit is crazy now UU will become the wild west without Milo to check all these random threats. She truly is a nessacary evil that imo would prove detrimental to the tier. The balance playstyle would dwindle down as many rely on milo for a pivot point meanwhile the otherplaystyles could care less about milos leave; stall doesn't need milo and hyper offense should not be using milo at all and would be glad to see it gone. Where I find trouble with many arguements about milo is that many say it walls most of the meta. The arguement is not flawed but rather has some contingencies. Yes milo has the capabilities to check many UU threats however to so she be running certain sets for each type of situations. Many call this 4 moveslot syndrome as seen by haze rest/sleep talk/ hp grass/psychic surf ice beam or recover; however Milo cannot even settle on concrete Evs. She needs all the defensive Evs she can get to not be 2hko by Azumaril's double edge meanwhile milo also needs some specail defensive evs to help ward off rain. Thus inevitably Milo gains an achilles heel in one either saying to one side of the spectrum or 2 staying in the middle hindering her from taking boosted or really strong attacks. In addition to this I find that wallbreakers are essential part to many teams that many people are forgetting in team building making milo and even registeel a major problem. Many sword dancer can severly mame if not take out milo at plus 2; here's looking at you blaziken ;). Meanwhile wallbreakers in the sense of mixed attackers can be used to put and end to walls or at the very least make wholes. All in all I think that Milo is a top notch pokemon but she can't do it all. It is in those shortcomings that people have to find opportunity.
I don't think "but we need Milotic" is a valid argument at all. If it turns out that Milotic really does wall that much of the metagame, that just means it's clearly broken under the DC. If it turns out that people need to experiment with different Pokemon to counter powerful attackers instead of just slapping Milotic on a team and calling it a day, then so be it. We have plenty of viable fire type checks (Thick Fat Hariyama, Thick Fat Grumpig, Slowking/bro, Ninetales, Arcanine, Azumarill, Regirock, etc etc) and the fact that no one realizes that is a testament to how versatile Milotic is as a defensive threat; why use any of the above when you can use Milotic and end up walling everything else too? While I'm still unconvinced on whether to nominate Milotic under the DC, people need to understand that "but everything else will become broken" is not a valid argument for banning it. That's like dropping Giratina down and never banning it just to guarantee that we never have an offensive suspect again. Edit: And in case anyone was wondering, I'm mostly hesitant to nominate Milotic because the most popular Pokemon in the metagame easily beats it, and Milotic's severe 4MSS prevent it from doing everything it's capable of.
I'd just like to point out to fiction that milotic does not need any SpD evs to take on rain. In fact, she can stall out the entire team, excluding Ludicolo, of course, with her standard spread and a Bold nature.
Also, the write-ups on venusaur are very convincing. To be honest, I thought about nominating my own MixSaur under the offensive characteristic. I really don't see the support because it doesn't aid another's sweep, but sweeps on it's own. I've easily beaten many stall teams with Venusaur alone. It's never dead weight and holds its own against offense as well. I would hate to see it go, but it does fit...
I feel like Thund on Milotic as well; I would hate to see her go, but I still think she deserves a test. With all the attention being on offensive suspects most of the time, no one ever really payed attention to how hard she is to take down. I remember a few metagames back when I absolutely hated her. She is a ridiculous tank and when played well, she is just a bitch. I honestly doubt she'll go anywhere, but it's still pretty early, so yea...
Also, the write-ups on venusaur are very convincing. To be honest, I thought about nominating my own MixSaur under the offensive characteristic. I really don't see the support because it doesn't aid another's sweep, but sweeps on it's own. I've easily beaten many stall teams with Venusaur alone. It's never dead weight and holds its own against offense as well. I would hate to see it go, but it does fit...
I feel like Thund on Milotic as well; I would hate to see her go, but I still think she deserves a test. With all the attention being on offensive suspects most of the time, no one ever really payed attention to how hard she is to take down. I remember a few metagames back when I absolutely hated her. She is a ridiculous tank and when played well, she is just a bitch. I honestly doubt she'll go anywhere, but it's still pretty early, so yea...
Small post to point out a small discontingency (is that a word?) in the voting process. In all UU suspect votes only one pokemon has been voted out under the defensive characteristic: Cresselia. How many have been voted out for the other characteristics? 10.
Please don't get us stuck in this metagame
Another example comes up in Moltres. Moltres has a great duel-STAB and massive special attack with passable speed to go along with it. There is one Pokemon in all of UU that can consistently switch in and that is Milotic. Rhyperor is a monstrous threat to all types of teams. The only Pokemon that can solidly counter all of its sets is Milotic. Both of the Pokemon are giant, giant threats to every UU team except the ones prepared for them the most. (Aqua Jet anyone?) Even so, from an offensive standpoint, these pokes are "work-aroundable". But look at it from the other direction. There is a common thread here. Milotic walls them. Two of the most (the most) powerful sweepers in UU, one physical and one special, are both stopped cold by one Pokemon alone. One pokemon is capable of taking STAB 100 base power attacks from 140 base attack and at the same time take STAB 120 base power attacks from 125 base special attack.
Please don't get us stuck in this metagame
It's easy to say an offensive pokemon is BL. If it is broken you win, and a lot. A defensive pokemon doesn't always win you games. What it can do is shift momentum. I've been using the word "pivot wall" to describe these Pokemon. They don't do anything literally - not much damage, no ability to set up generally - but they force the tide to change in the battle. Milotic is the #1 example of this, with Venusaur and Registeel following close behind. You don't necessarily win because of them, but they give you a second wind to try and execute your strategy again.
Please don't get us stuck in this metagame
Every single one of my teams in UU is based around taking out the opponents pivot wall. If you break it, you almost always win the game. In this sense I've made this metagame into one just like any of the others: One suspect that I have to counter over and over again to make winning games quite easy. I guess subconsciously I picked out the pivot walls as my primary suspect since the first time I started learning about UU and yet we've never gotten around to banning them. The centralization still lurks there.
Please don't get us stuck in this metagame
I think now is the time to get rid of Milotic before anything else is banned on the premise that only Milotic stops it. That is rediculous. Maybe there are other checks. I don't care. The amount of Pokemon Milotic hard counters is out of hand, and we've made it that way by banning the things that had a chance of breaking Milotic. Now we're at the point that Milotic hard counters the most powerful physical and special attackers in the tier with one spread. One Pokemon can't do that.
Please don't get us stuck in this metagame
Please don't get us stuck in this metagame
Another example comes up in Moltres. Moltres has a great duel-STAB and massive special attack with passable speed to go along with it. There is one Pokemon in all of UU that can consistently switch in and that is Milotic. Rhyperor is a monstrous threat to all types of teams. The only Pokemon that can solidly counter all of its sets is Milotic. Both of the Pokemon are giant, giant threats to every UU team except the ones prepared for them the most. (Aqua Jet anyone?) Even so, from an offensive standpoint, these pokes are "work-aroundable". But look at it from the other direction. There is a common thread here. Milotic walls them. Two of the most (the most) powerful sweepers in UU, one physical and one special, are both stopped cold by one Pokemon alone. One pokemon is capable of taking STAB 100 base power attacks from 140 base attack and at the same time take STAB 120 base power attacks from 125 base special attack.
Please don't get us stuck in this metagame
It's easy to say an offensive pokemon is BL. If it is broken you win, and a lot. A defensive pokemon doesn't always win you games. What it can do is shift momentum. I've been using the word "pivot wall" to describe these Pokemon. They don't do anything literally - not much damage, no ability to set up generally - but they force the tide to change in the battle. Milotic is the #1 example of this, with Venusaur and Registeel following close behind. You don't necessarily win because of them, but they give you a second wind to try and execute your strategy again.
Please don't get us stuck in this metagame
Every single one of my teams in UU is based around taking out the opponents pivot wall. If you break it, you almost always win the game. In this sense I've made this metagame into one just like any of the others: One suspect that I have to counter over and over again to make winning games quite easy. I guess subconsciously I picked out the pivot walls as my primary suspect since the first time I started learning about UU and yet we've never gotten around to banning them. The centralization still lurks there.
Please don't get us stuck in this metagame
I think now is the time to get rid of Milotic before anything else is banned on the premise that only Milotic stops it. That is rediculous. Maybe there are other checks. I don't care. The amount of Pokemon Milotic hard counters is out of hand, and we've made it that way by banning the things that had a chance of breaking Milotic. Now we're at the point that Milotic hard counters the most powerful physical and special attackers in the tier with one spread. One Pokemon can't do that.
Please don't get us stuck in this metagame
Uhhh, you have it all wrong buddy. You think that Milotic is the only thing that can reliably beat Moltres? Try Regirock? Slowking? Did these pokemon just become less viable or are you trying to play up Milotic's strengths? Don't get me started on Rhyperior vs Milotic. Milotic is forced to heal each time it soaks up a hit from Rhyperior. And if I want to make sure you stay at ~30%, then I sacrifice Rhyperior while continuing to EQ.
What do you mean, Milotic counters 70%+ of the metagame? Are you that stupid? I am pretty sure a fuckton of stuff can still beat Milotic. You tell me the 70% that Milotic can reliably switch in on without getting hit for 40%+, statused, or forced to recover. Show me, I'd love to see it. If I choose to sacrifice my NP Doom, your milotic is at 15%. Fuck, it's hard to take down, but jesus it does not wall 70% of the metagame. Your posts blows everything way out of fucking proportion, making it seem like Milotic is jesus. Shut up.
What do you mean, Milotic counters 70%+ of the metagame? Are you that stupid? I am pretty sure a fuckton of stuff can still beat Milotic. You tell me the 70% that Milotic can reliably switch in on without getting hit for 40%+, statused, or forced to recover. Show me, I'd love to see it. If I choose to sacrifice my NP Doom, your milotic is at 15%. Fuck, it's hard to take down, but jesus it does not wall 70% of the metagame. Your posts blows everything way out of fucking proportion, making it seem like Milotic is jesus. Shut up.
Without Raikou and easy spikes, there is no one pokemon that can consistently wall-break every EV spread of a Milotic. While I agree that you should keep wallbreaking in mind when making a team, right now the central idea of team decision this round was "How can I wallbreak Milotic?" (EDIT: Using pokemon sacrifices that is, such as the Rhyperior theorycrafted in this thread)
And comparing Milotic to Registeel is completely out of context considering there are countless foolproof switch-ins to Registeel that can easily set up on him because he lacks Haze.
Agreed.
Both seriously, WOW. Those are some strong feelings towards Milotic right there.
My checkmark disagrees, unless by saying so I make the admins swoop down and eat it :S
C'mon guys, get with the program. Registeel is Jesus. I'm really on the fence about Milotic, while it's evident that it's the single best wall in UU, I think that this could really turn into a slippery slope thing... I mean, we haven't seriously discussed banning it before, and now everyone's talking about how it hunts down people playing against it and throws racial slurs at their moms.
Nice way to talk, Bad Ass.
Milotic still counters Rhyperior, that's what is important.
About Moltres: well, Chansey also counters it. And the pokes Bad Ass mentioned. It's not only Milotic.
But what he's trying to say (i think) is that there's only one poke that can counter both (even if it's going to be crippled: but to counter is to take a hit anyway) and it's Milotic. Unless i'm wrong somewhere again...
Milotic still counters Rhyperior, that's what is important.
About Moltres: well, Chansey also counters it. And the pokes Bad Ass mentioned. It's not only Milotic.
But what he's trying to say (i think) is that there's only one poke that can counter both (even if it's going to be crippled: but to counter is to take a hit anyway) and it's Milotic. Unless i'm wrong somewhere again...
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