NP: UU - Bye Bye Bye

[shrang]

Chansey? Power Whip and SD.
Arcanine? Specs/LO-Sludgebomb, Sleep Powder
Altaria? SD with Double Edge, Sleep Powder.
Rotom? Takes a huge, HUGE chunk from LO-Powerwhip, Leafstorm, Sludgebomb.
Weezing? Sleep Powder.
Tangrowth, Leafon? Sludge Bomb, Sleep Powder.
Moltres? Slugebomb, Sleep Powder.
Registeel? SD+EQ, Sleep Powder.

I normally just switch in Moltres. I mean, the only thing he can really do to incapacitate me without being forced out is to use Sleep Powder (Or get a lucky Poison on me with Sludge Bomb). Since I normally use SubRoost Moltres anyway, Sleep Powder isn't going to get me unless he does it on the switch. Sludge Bomb won't OHKO me even with SR up, meaning I can just force it out and Roost. I mean the stuff you've mentioned are pretty eh, really. I mean, SD + Double Edge is going to do truckload to Altaria, but do you really think I'll keep Altaria in after seeing you SD?? I don't think so. I'd much rather go to Arcanine or something, Intimidate you then threaten you out. Venusaur cannot run Power Whip/Leaf Storm/Sleep Powder/Sludge Bomb/EQ/Return/Energy Ball on the same set, you know.

 

[Midnight.]

Every set can easily be played around, and it's just a matter of "learn to predict".

Unless every variant of Venusaur has some distinct marking on its forehead or under its bulb that I'm not seeing, I don't see how you predict until you see what it does haha. Even in your above post you are saying that you would switch in Moltres, which likely incapacitates a counter.

(Or get a lucky Poison on me with Sludge Bomb)

Which has roughly 80% poison rate on Shoddy, I swear haha.

It's also annoying that other grass types have no hope in hell of taking it out one-on-one, barring Exeggutor or dudes running around with Aerial Ace. Imagine if by some slim chance Venu got voted BL. We'd still be left with Vileplume ^_^

 

[shrang]

Yay Vileplume!! Honestly, I'd like to see Meganium come up in usage should Venusaur get the banhammer though. Very similar stats, and pure Grass typing means NO GETTING SWEPT BY TORTERRA. Hehehe.

 

[Delko]

Meganium has what? Tangrowth is bulkier on the physical side. Leafeon is faster and bulkier and has access to Heal Bell (so Aromatherapy isn't the reason you should use Meganium for). Sceptile and Jumpluff can Subseed faster. Perhaps a Dual Screen set is viable.

 

[Midnight.]

I always forget that Meganium is a starter evo, and constantly mix it up with Tropius (who has way more character).

Speaking of which, Tropius is statistically the most frustrating Pokemon so far as I am concerned. GIVE IT MORE ATTACK POWER!!!

 

[Cherub Agent]

venusaur is... versatile. There's no doubt about that, and i think that in a way, it can be compared to salamence. Not through power or speed, but simply through the number of viable sets it has. I run CroSteel to counter venusaur, who walls all sets except the eq SD one, who in turn can't touch flying Pokemon. It's a great poke, but not broken material IMO

 

[EpitomeOfFailure]

Perhaps a Dual Screen set is viable.

What about DS Jumpluff running around with two of Encore/Sleep Powder/U-Turn?
It's not as bulky, but fast screen backs up those lousy defences.

 

[Rolf]

DS Jumpluff would be great but it doesn't get Light Screen :\ (according to http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/jumpluff/moves)

Venusaur cannot run Power Whip/Leaf Storm/Sleep Powder/Sludge Bomb/EQ/Return/Energy Ball on the same set, you know.

Try and find out from your initial switch which set they run. You can't. Every time Venusaur switches in you have a very, very large predicament. Think of what you just said. I'd switch in Altaria first, than Arcanine, or maybe SubRoost Moltres. Common thread: each one of those are weak to Stealth Rock. You can't just go blindly switching to random specific-Venusaur-set counters because they are getting hit, usually super effectively, by Stealth Rock every time they switch in. Something is getting incapacitated for a while too with Sleep Powder somewhere in the middle there.

 

[dbcb]

venusaur is... versatile. There's no doubt about that, and i think that in a way, it can be compared to salamence. Not through power or speed, but simply through the number of viable sets it has. I run CroSteel to counter venusaur, who walls all sets except the eq SD one, who in turn can't touch flying Pokemon. It's a great poke, but not broken material IMO

the problem with the mence/venu comparison because you guess wrong with mence you are dead. If you think it is mixed and the damn thing dances it is like "shit."

Venu.. it isn't quite the same. Honesty, if I switch something in and it dances I am doing a dance myself because that set is weak sauce. It is horribly walled by something no matter what its second move is.

 

[dbcb]

DS Jumpluff would be great but it doesn't get Light Screen :\ (according to http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/jumpluff/moves)


Try and find out from your initial switch which set they run. You can't. Every time Venusaur switches in you have a very, very large predicament. Think of what you just said. I'd switch in Altaria first, than Arcanine, or maybe SubRoost Moltres. Common thread: each one of those are weak to Stealth Rock. You can't just go blindly switching to random specific-Venusaur-set counters because they are getting hit, usually super effectively, by Stealth Rock every time they switch in. Something is getting incapacitated for a while too with Sleep Powder somewhere in the middle there.

After one move you can narrow it down a bit though. You can see if it is running leftovers/black sludge or life orb or a choice item right then. You can see if its physical or special after one move.

From usage stats, realistically its either dancing or a special wall.

 

[Rolf]

The mixed sets and random combinations of moves are picking up usage though. The other thing is that Sleep Powder doesn't give away your set yet still essentially kills something for at least a turn. (given you don't miss) Figuring the set out from one move also doesn't change the fact you have to switch at least twice from every Venusaur: once to absorb sleep and once to an actual counter. That's a lot of residual damage, and that's with perfect prediction also.

 

[Thund91]

We might as well nominate Blaziken who can open up holes in teams much more easily then Venusaur. Sure he might not have Sleep Powder but he hits 10x harder and has much better STABs, and also has a decently strong priority attack. I don't find Grass STAB threatening in the least.

 

[Meru]

We might as well nominate Blaziken who can open up holes in teams much more easily then Venusaur. Sure he might not have Sleep Powder but he hits 10x harder and has much better STABs, and also has a decently strong priority attack. I don't find Grass STAB threatening in the least.

Blaziken is entirely predictable, which is the exact opposite they're arguing for Venusaur.

 

[capefeather]

I don't know what it is about people going the "surprise kill -> Support Characteristic" route. I've screwed over quite a few sweeping attempts in OU with Expert Belt Jirachi. That doesn't make it broken under Support.

 

[Thund91]

Blaziken is entirely predictable, which is the exact opposite they're arguing for Venusaur.

Blaziken doesn't need to be unpredictable because it's still gonna fuck shit up even if you know what it's going to do.

The whole reason Venusaur seems to be nominated is because it can support other Pokemon to sweep, which Blaziken does better.

 

[dbcb]

The mixed sets and random combinations of moves are picking up usage though. The other thing is that Sleep Powder doesn't give away your set yet still essentially kills something for at least a turn. (given you don't miss) Figuring the set out from one move also doesn't change the fact you have to switch at least twice from every Venusaur: once to absorb sleep and once to an actual counter. That's a lot of residual damage, and that's with perfect prediction also.

Saying its picking up usage =/= real data. If it is picking up usage then we should wait another round to see if these random/newer sets are actually broken. Last round they were barely ever used, so how can we judge them yet?

And you still see leftovers/black sludge or not. And if it immediately switches after using SP then you have a pretty good idea that it is choiced in some way.

And there is still a 25% chance SP does absolutely nothing and misses.

 

[Sir Azelf]

I don't know what it is about people going the "surprise kill -> Support Characteristic" route. I've screwed over quite a few sweeping attempts in OU with Expert Belt Jirachi. That doesn't make it broken under Support.

Exactly, as said by RaikouLover 'People really need to figure out the difference between support characteristic and a lure'.

 

[ToF]

There is no single Pokemon you can switch into Venusaur initially because of the possibility of Sleep Powder. The other moves obviously tell what set Venusaur is running, but incapacitating your counter with Sleep Powder is incredibly annoying and in my opinion a bit overpowered. The fact that Venusaur has the stats to run all three possible offensive sets (special, physical, and mixed) means it's even more dangerous than Roserade was.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

I really hope the Venusaur nominations are just an attempt to get some votes going, because it's probably one the most "not broken" Pokemon in the tier. Every set can easily be played around, and it's just a matter of "learn to predict".

Can you please not make posts like this. Making bold statements without any sort of backing is something I don't appreciate in this thread.

If you'd take the time to actually read the Venusaur nominations you'd see that the reasons listed so far for the Venusaur nomination are arguably the most sound out of any Pokemon nominated so far, not to mention Venusaur lends some weight to these arguments by being the most used Pokemon in the tier (though that doesn't always mean everything unless a Pokemon hits Garchomp-like numbers, it still helps). I think the problem with Venusaur is really that of sleep move + versatility + bulk. It's hard to deal with something when it can threaten to hit as hard in numerous was while also threaten to put something to sleep. As has been mentioned, you can switch in your sleep absorber only to be fucked by whatever attack it throws at you. You can switch in your counter only to be fucked by sleep. Or you can alternatively combine sleep absorber and counter with one of the relatively few Pokemon that can run a reasonable resttalk set and counter Venusaur which more than likely is insane overspecialization -_-. Now add in the fact that unlike Roserade (which was more than likely a round or two from being nominated itself before it went OU) it can take a hit easily from both sides of the spectrum with quite awesome defenses and I think it's clear you're looking at the best Pokemon in the tier. And I've always been a proponent of "best Pokemon in the tier should be suspect until voted on." But alas not much I can do in my position about it lol

 

[Rolf]

Saying its picking up usage =/= real data. If it is picking up usage then we should wait another round to see if these random/newer sets are actually broken. Last round they were barely ever used, so how can we judge them yet?

And you still see leftovers/black sludge or not. And if it immediately switches after using SP then you have a pretty good idea that it is choiced in some way.

And there is still a 25% chance SP does absolutely nothing and misses.

Because I've seen them in action and they work, and very well at that. Heck, that's something else Venusaur can do. Bluff a Choice Scarf. I guess since people keep comparing it to Salamence I'll give another example of a bluff set that's something like Draco Plate Salamence. The premise of the set is that you bluff Choice Specs by firing off an immensely powerful Draco Meteor that hits akin to SpecsMeteor and then switch out. The next time you come in you Dragon Dance up and sweep with Outrage and EQ. I could see Venusaur running something like a Meadow or Toxic Plate and using Sleep Powder on the initial switch and bluff choice, then hit whatever comes in next with a Power Whip or Sludge Bomb. You could run Swords Dance also to give it that destructive potential and Earthquake over Sludge Bomb.

...look at all those options just for one bluff, and that's just one idea. Between the item choice, movepool, and wide stat distribution, and especially Sleep Powder to take care of anything else. None of them are real gimmicks either. The amount of viable sets it can run, each with different counters, make Venusaur one of the hardest Pokemon to beat.

And I've always been a proponent of "best Pokemon in the tier should be suspect until voted on."

I agree 100%.

 

[Ekanselttar]

There is no single Pokemon you can switch into Venusaur initially because of the possibility of Sleep Powder.

Hypno and Noctowl :D

But really, Venusaur's very not-broken. I'm seeing people basically saying that it's broken because it can go physical or special. The most appropriate response to this is WTF? Altaria can run both at the same time (oh, wait, Altaria's broken...), Blazkien can go either way, Arcanine, Raichu, Ludicolo, Sharpedo...

Seriously, guys. Sleep powder =/= broken, the ability to run a crappy physical set along with a special set =/= broken, a special wall that gets OHKO'd half the time by an unboosted NP Doom's Fire Blast without entry hazards =/= broken.

Edit: going past my knee-jerk reaction and actually reading the noms, they do bring up some valid points - probably the best being that Venu's counters are all pretty much sr-weak, but no spinners can really stay in on Venu. But IMO they're also basically saying to vote it BL because it has Sleep Powder...

 

[anti404]

I don't think Sleep Powder is necessarily the thing that makes it BL, but rather the combination of Sleep Powder+multiple sets+solid bulk cause it to be able to trip up many of its supposed counters.

 

[Meru]

Grass stands out as powerful in the F/W/G core because its the only one that has its counter type weak to SR.

The resistances for Grass are:

Fire - SR weak
Flying - SR weak
Bug - SR weak
Dragon - Altaria who is SR weak
Steel - only Registeel, who is handled by EQ, and Aggron/Steelix, who aren't resistant to ground
Poison - All weak to ground aside from Weezing. In fact I consider RestTalk Weezing to be the #1 Venusaur counter.
and Grass itself

So to reiterate, four UU grass resists are weak to SR, and the other two are weak to Ground. SR is pretty much the sole reason why DPPt is Venusaur's most dominant metagame.

 

[Rolf]

People need to understand that Venusaur uses its versatility and Sleep Powder to give its team the momentum they need to help something sweep.

Sleep Powder alone isn't making it a suspect, but it is what pushes it over the edge in my eyes.

...

I'm seeing people basically saying that it's broken because it can go physical or special... But IMO they're also basically saying to vote it BL because it has Sleep Powder...

Exactly what we are saying. Sleep Powder and versatility in one package.

Seriously, guys. Sleep powder =/= broken, the ability to run a crappy physical set along with a special set =/= broken, a special wall that gets OHKO'd half the time by an unboosted NP Doom's Fire Blast without entry hazards =/= broken.

First point is valid. Second point is semi-valid only because the SD set really isn't as bad as everyone says - SD can be done better by other Pokes for sure but Venu still can do it and get the job done. The third doesn't really address a point but I guess it's true. It's saying something though that a 120 Base Power STAB Super Effective move off of 110 base SpA doesn't always KO Venusaur. Especially when it can still run a physical set and a special set and a mixed set and still put a counter to sleep.

 

[jamashawalker]

Let's think about the repercussions of NOT having venusaur around and if it were voted BL?

One note I'd like to start off with is how people are already on the edge with milotic being broken for one reason it takes a strong grass type attack to take it down. Venusaur is that strong grass type that loves to switch into milotic (although well predicted can take alot from an ice beam) and use milotic as set up bait...This is just one reason I state that keeps the metagame balance