NP: UU - Bye Bye Bye

[FlareBlitz]

I think all the venusaur noms are due to people hating sleep powder. If it's really that annoying use a resttalker, a cleric, something with insomina/vital spirit/early bird, or just suck it up and take the sleep on some death fodder. After sleep clause is active venusaur is just another base 80 SPE poke with acceptable attacking power and bulk. Honestly I don't think venusaur is at Roserade's level simply because of its lower SPE, lower attacking power, and fewer support options. The ability to run a physical set (imo venusaur's crappiest option) doesn't make up for this.

 

[Meru]

I think all the venusaur noms are due to people hating sleep powder. If it's really that annoying use a resttalker, a cleric, something with insomina/vital spirit/early bird, or just suck it up and take the sleep on some death fodder. After sleep clause is active venusaur is just another base 80 SPE poke with acceptable attacking power and bulk. Honestly I don't think venusaur is at Roserade's level simply because of its lower SPE, lower attacking power, and fewer support options. The ability to run a physical set (imo venusaur's crappiest option) doesn't make up for this.

And what if it kills the death fodder instead? Then you still need to deal with the sleep now or later on in the match.

Let's think about the repercussions of NOT having venusaur around and if it were voted BL?

One note I'd like to start off with is how people are already on the edge with milotic being broken for one reason it takes a strong grass type attack to take it down. Venusaur is that strong grass type that loves to switch into milotic (although well predicted can take alot from an ice beam) and use milotic as set up bait...This is just one reason I state that keeps the metagame balance

Lol. So you're saying these people who believe Venusaur to be broken should accept him being here because he keeps another broken pokemon in check?

 

[Heysup]

Let's think about the repercussions of NOT having venusaur around and if it were voted BL?

One note I'd like to start off with is how people are already on the edge with milotic being broken for one reason it takes a strong grass type attack to take it down. Venusaur is that strong grass type that loves to switch into milotic (although well predicted can take alot from an ice beam) and use milotic as set up bait...This is just one reason I state that keeps the metagame balance

Let's unban Lugia in all tiers because it would keep everything in check and we wouldn't need to ban anything!

Keep in mind I don't think Venusaur is broken in the least, but these arguments don't really give valid reasons for keeping it UU. In my opinion Venusaur isn't broken because its counters and namely revenge killers remain constant no matter which set it uses. The rule "you can only use revenge killing as an argument if the Pokemon is more dangerous than the Pokemon it is forcing out" does not apply here because of the nature of Venusaur's revenge killers. For example, Moltres, Blaziken, Magmortar, Arcanine, Alakazam, Swellow, etc are all equally as dangerous to switch into as Venusaur. While they all lack the bulk/typing of Venusaur, it is no question that they can hurt stuff just as bad or worse. Saying "It can hit its counters with Sleep Powder Zzzz" is basically saying the same thing as "It has another move to deal with its would-be counters". This applies to many Pokemon. Magmortar, for example, has Fire Blast as its main attack, but it can use Thunderbolt to hit Milotic/other Waters. Magmortar isn't broken. I guess you could claim that Venusaur's bulk puts it over the edge, but the bulk is essentially meaningless as an offensive Pokemon when considering its revenge killers.

 

[FlareBlitz]

If it kills the death fodder you force it out with Moltres/Scyther/Arcanine and watch as something on the opponent's team gets maimed? Venusaur can't afford to give some of the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier free turns, it WILL almost always open with sleep powder.

 

[Bad Ass]

hi hyu did you not understand my post at all or something? firstly, why are you not running a boatload of sdef anyway on regirock...>_>

secondly you are pulling the "if i have x to eliminate y, z sweeps" theory. not to mention that the highest possible pursuiter on Moltres' teammate stats is spiritomb. moltres is #4 on absol's, but really that is because moltres is #7 in usage, since absol isn't even present on moltres'. i also only gave two examples. There are more things that can check moltres without milotic.

some of these arguements are ridiculous with venusaur for uu. and plain stupid. go read my or eo's nominations, that is what we think pushes it over to bl. and unless you can validly counter those points with something intelligent, don't try. put up or shut up.

@flareblitz perfect example of a poorly played venusaur! you dont open with SP in 90% of situations -_-

 

[Heysup]

hi hyu did you not understand my post at all or something? firstly, why are you not running a boatload of sdef anyway on regirock...>_>

Of course I could pump up Special Defense EVs (like the analysis suggests unfortunately, but that was for a previous metagame) but then Regirock is walled by everything. It also has no recovery, even if you did pump them up to the point of uselessness Regirock will just get worn out because switching into it is so easy.

secondly you are pulling the "if i have x to eliminate y, z sweeps" theory. not to mention that the highest possible pursuiter on Moltres' teammate stats is spiritomb. moltres is #4 on absol's, but really that is because moltres is #7 in usage, since absol isn't even present on moltres'. i also only gave two examples. There are more things that can check moltres without milotic.

There's an example of a poorly played Moltres! Also I'm not concerned with Moltres checks, I'm concerned with switch-ins. Nothing does that as reliably as Milotic, though Slowking comes close it is not even remotely as good (loses to Rhyperior and co).

 

[Bad Ass]

the point is not ability to check [pokemon that is not moltres], it is the ability to check (counter) moltres.

 

[Rolf]

No no the whole reason Milotic would be considered broken is because it is able to check (counter) Moltres and a boatload of other stuff. That's part of the difference between Milotic and Slowking, the difference that makes it in my eyes a suspect.

 

[Heysup]

the point is not ability to check [pokemon that is not moltres], it is the ability to check (counter) moltres.

If a Moltres check is only good for checking Moltres, then it is easily passable and therefore less viable than another check. Remember Raikou?

Rolfkip got it right.

 

[Bad Ass]

you just completely changed the subject? i understand the sentiments behind the "milotic is broken" campaign. i was telling you that other pokemon can check moltres NOT JUST MILOTIC. and for some reason that went through your head as "slowking can check moltres too milotic is not broken". please don't put words in my mouth

 

[Heysup]

I've trying to explain that it is less viable. You can consider Ludicolo a Kyogre check. You can consider Shuckle a Raikou check. Obviously Slowking isn't as bad as these other examples, but the point still stands. You're trying to pick out one point in his post just because he didn't say "Milotic is one of the only Pokemon who can switch into Moltres and continue checking what a bulky water needs to check".

Remember this is about Milotic not Moltres. I am saying Moltres is really hard to switch into with minor support and only Milotic is able to do this reliably in addition to the other 23109231 Pokemon it checks. Slowking and Chansey don't compare in this sense. This is what Rolfkip had in his post, this is what we were initially talking about. We didn't change the subject -__-

What point are you trying to make exactly? Why does it matter that Slowking (and Chansey) have the ability to check Moltres if Milotic does it and everything else better?

 

[Stagnant]

Because 'I' was challenged to do so...

Nominating Venusaur under the Support Characteristic.

Venusaur has the ability to run many sets, most of which fall under one of three categories: specially-based (special Grass move / Sludge Bomb), physical-based (Swords Dance / Power Whip / Earthquake), and mixed (Power Whip / Sludge Bomb). There are definitive counters to each variant; however, many are set-specific. Tangrowth and Leafeon wall fully physical variants, but they die to those that carry Sludge Bomb. Registeel walls most special and mixed versions, but it falls to a Swords Dance boosted Earthquake and gets outstalled by Venusaur with Leech Seed. Chansey and Clefable wall special variants, but can't handle physical Venusaur or Leech Seed, in Chansey's case. One can really never be entirely certain of a Venusaur's full moveset until it has revealed all of its attacks, as Venusaur can and does commonly use many different combinations of moves to great effect.

Therefore, unless one's willing to risk losing their Chansey to Power Whip, for instance, the first switch-in to Venusaur is generally a Pokemon that can handle all three of its common sets. Pokemon such as Moltres, Altaria, Arcanine fall under this category - and most happen to be weak to Stealth Rock. Those that aren't weak to Stealth Rock (Mesprit and Uxie for instance) lack reliable recovery and do not resists any of Venusaur's STABs, and therefore are temporary insurances at best.

Stealth Rock is key here. It's too easy to abuse Stealth Rock in conjunction with Venusaur. No UU Rapid Spinner can consistently switch into Venusaur - Donphan, Kabutops, and Cloyster are all weak to Grass-type attacks, and Hitmontop resists neither of Venusaur's STABs and can do nothing in return to it. As mentioned, many of its "catch-all" counters are weak to it. Finally, there's Venusaur's ability to easily force switches. Sleep Powder comes into play here. If you switch your Venusaur counter into Sleep Powder, you "lose"; if you switch your sleep absorber into an attack, you lose. If you predict right, you still end up racking up residual damage. If your sleep absorber happens to be your Venusaur counter, it's now unable to recover health, which is necessary due to Stealth Rock damage.

Furthermore, its immunity to Toxic plus its access to Synthesis means that walling it is not enough to beat Venusaur; one must rely on a combination of resistances and sufficient offensive power to beat it, which are easily exploitable by Stealth Rock and Venusaur's excellent offensive STABs.

In the end, Venusaur will end up putting one of its opponents to sleep, further damaging (an)other Pokemon through residual damage and/or one of its moderately powered STAB hits - at the very minimum. A well-played Venusaur has the potential to do that and much more - lure and KO or severely damage particular walls. Because of the ease at which it can do this, and the difficulty and cost of countering it, due to its versatility, I believe that Venusaur is BL under the Support Characteristic.

Ok, so lets break this down. Venusaur will ALWAYS carry two Grass-type moves, Leaf Storm/ Power Whip and Sleep Powder. So, unpredictability is somewhat a moot-point. As previously stated, Venusaur cannot allow a Pokemon such as Blaziken or Moltres to switch-in freely therefore, unless your opponents team has been thoroughly (I use this term loosely) scouted, Venusaur needs to lead off with Sleep Powder in order to secure an advantage.

I'm going to lay off the Stealth Rock because when we are dealing with Moltres, Arcanine, etc.. as checks things become, eh. However the statement "No UU Rapid Spinner can consistently switch into Venusaur - Donphan, Kabutops, and Cloyster are all weak to Grass-type attacks, and Hitmontop resists neither of Venusaur's STABs and can do nothing in return to it" is irrelevant and fails to make a significant point. No Rapid Spinner can effectively switch-into Rotom who so far also meets the criteria that you have listed for Venusaur (multiple sets, abuses Stealth Rock, few Pokemon (including checks) switches in safely) -- but that is also irrelevant.

Attempting to give a list of what deals with Venusaur is also an unreliable way of handling things. For example, Azumarril has no business going toe to toe when dealing with Venusaur however, Azumarril is no free switch-in for Venusaur either. Same can be said for Rhyperior, Aggron, etc...

Venusaur can be dealt with several ways; primarily a Sleep Absorber or simply outplaying your opponent. My preference is to switch-in Blaziken/ Houndoom/ Moltres into Sleep Powder while holding a Heal Bell user (Altaria) or a secondary check in the midst.

Finally, I cannot believe Milo is being nominated as a suspect.... I mean common. Also, if you voted NO SUSPECTS revise your posts indicating why said suspects are not suspects and give a good overview of why the metagame is stable....

 

[Aldaron]

The rule "you can only use revenge killing as an argument if the Pokemon is more dangerous than the Pokemon it is forcing out" does not apply here

Shouldn't apply ever. It's actually "you can use an example of a revenge killer if it is viable in any facet outside of the specific thing it is supposed to revenge."

If it wasn't, then we couldn't use revenge killing as an argument against the #1 most dangerous Pokemon in any tier, which is just silly.

When arguing how effective revenge killing is, you argue about the sum total of competitively viable revenge killers, not each specifically and only if each specifically is more dangerous.

That said, there is certainly a "true to the definition" counter for all sets Venusaur has: Specially bulky Rest Sleep Talk Will-o-Wisp Sludge Bomb Weezing. There is also a "mostly true to the definition" counter for all sets in 285 Speed bulky Intimidate Arcanine with Morning Sun and Flare Blitz, as it can switch into any attack (so long as you EV it to take <75% from Specs Sludge Bomb), and make a decision of whether to Flare Blitz for the KO or Morning Sun for the recovery in case Venusaur switches out.

Regarding Weezing, it beats physical, special, leech seed + synthesis (via pp stalling), and can switch in at anytime.

It is also certainly a viable Pokemon, as it offers important Fighting / Ground resists and the ability to spread Burn around. If you can't take my word for it, take Panamaxis' word, he was using it as well :P

Now, I acknowledge first that Venusaur's competitive diversity is unparalleled in UU, but I certainly do not adhere to the philosophy that the most powerful Pokemon should always be suspect. We should never be biased towards banning, and adhering to that philosophy tends to make us want to ban anything that gives us trouble.

I note that May stats and note that Weezing is only #35, and only 6.8% of this #35 used Pokemon actually use the set that counters Weezing. I also note that Arcanine is high (any set is a check to Venusaur), but less than 14% put any physically defensive EVs in.

I've watched nearly all the people who nominated Venusaur for suspect, and none of them have used Weezing or bulky Intimidate Arcanine with 285 Speed (besides like LonelyNess, but he isn't nominating Venusaur) for prolonged periods of time.

Now I'm also curious if the suspect status of Venusaur is due the fact that Venusaur forces prediction on the user; as in, you have to decide whether to switch your Pokemon that can take a Power Whip / Leaf Storm or take Sleep Powder. Is something that forces prediction really broken? I'm reminded of the Garchomp scenario, which forced prediction but where a misprediction generally resulted in a loss of a Pokemon. The Garchomp scenario was "Garchomp kills a Pokemon and cripples another most of the time" but is Venusaur really like that?

A lot of people are saying "o wow EO / Bad_Ass / Franky had such good post nominations" and all that jazz but all I took from all 3 nominations was that:

1.) Venusaur is a good Pokemon. They all listed facts about Venusaur's abilities, such as its ability to come in on Water Pokemon and force them out.

2.) Venusaur is a diversely used competitive Pokemon. They again, listed facts about Venusaur's diversity, such as the fact that Moltres hesitates to switch in because it could get KOed by SR + LO Sludge Bomb

3.) Venusaur has access to Sleep Powder, which can force the opposition to use prediction.

Rarely did I get the actual transition on how these statements about Venusaur make it broken. I understand there is the pedantic point that suspect doesn't mean broken, but let's all be honest here, once Venusaur is made suspect we'll be discussing whether or not it is broken anyway.

"Open up holes" is one of the most general statements I see people write in suspect paragraphs all the time (including myself). I was "lucky" enough to get away with it, but unfortunately (for you guys :P) I'm going to be a little more demanding and ask what specifically you mean by this.

Does the fact that Venusaur forces prediction, and then inevitably eventually yield a misprediction, "open up holes?" And does this open up a hole to the "garchomp level," as in you lose 1 Pokemon and have another crippled due simply to a physical or special or sleep powder misprediction?

Shouldn't something only be considered a problematic Pokemon if the misprediction yielded from its "forced prediction" consistently "opens up holes?" And what exactly is "opens up holes?"

 

[Bad Ass]

The Garchomp scenario was "Garchomp kills a Pokemon and cripples another most of the time" but is Venusaur really like that?

Yes. Exactly like this. Do you carry a sleep talker? More importantly, do you carry a sleep talker who can eat Power Whip / Sludge Bomb? Do you carry something that can absorb Venusaur's STAB attacks? How does that pokemon fair versus sleep. Predict wrong, lose a pokemon either via sleep or ko. Who's to say that after it kills the sleeping pokemon / if it just doesnt sleep something and goes for a kill it cant sleep later

 

[Heysup]

You make it sound like all Pokemon with two moves that can KO almost every Pokemon based on a misprediction are broken. In fact they do the same thing but without using up Sleep Clause.

Also it's not like Sleep takes a Pokemon out of the match. It's 1-4 turns. If you use it on a turn they attack, they have a good chance of waking up before you switch out or after you attack them (and chances are you are threatened by them because you used Sleep Powder).

 

[ToF]

Ok, so lets break this down. Venusaur will ALWAYS carry two Grass-type moves, Leaf Storm/ Power Whip and Sleep Powder. So, unpredictability is somewhat a moot-point. As previously stated, Venusaur cannot allow a Pokemon such as Blaziken or Moltres to switch-in freely therefore, unless your opponents team has been thoroughly (I use this term loosely) scouted, Venusaur needs to lead off with Sleep Powder in order to secure an advantage.

Unpredicability is a moot point because Venusaur is running two Grass-attacks? Are you serious? There is a tremendous difference bringing in certain Pokemon on either Grass-attack. Tangrowth can come in on Power Whip easily but hates coming in on Life Orb Leaf Storms. And as for your assertion that Sleep Powder is a necessary leading move, that is also obviously wrong. What is exactly wrong with blindly using Sludge Bomb expecting a Venusaur 'counter' to come in? Or maybe the opponent is switching in their sleep-absorber, only to get nailed by some strong attack. Obviously Sleep Powdering off the bat is not the smartest thing around, and isn't sound battling strategy.

I'm going to lay off the Stealth Rock because when we are dealing with Moltres, Arcanine, etc.. as checks things become, eh. However the statement "No UU Rapid Spinner can consistently switch into Venusaur - Donphan, Kabutops, and Cloyster are all weak to Grass-type attacks, and Hitmontop resists neither of Venusaur's STABs and can do nothing in return to it" is irrelevant and fails to make a significant point. No Rapid Spinner can effectively switch-into Rotom who so far also meets the criteria that you have listed for Venusaur (multiple sets, abuses Stealth Rock, few Pokemon (including checks) switches in safely) -- but that is also irrelevant.

Why is it irrelevant? Rotom always runs special sets. It's sets are limited to three (Defensive RestTalk, Choice item, and Substitute). All of them have similar checks, including Drapion and Spiritomb. These are 100% checks, as opposed to Venusaur who has no real true counters other than Weezing I guess, and even Weezing takes like 36% IIRC from LO Sludge Bomb (physically defensive spread). The spinner point is a huge point. Because no spinner can come in and threaten Venusaur remotely, it abuses Stealth Rock easier than other Pokemon in the tier. Added to the fact that it can cripple counters with Sleep Powder, I'd say its a major point.

As for your idea that no spinner can threaten Rotom, depends on what Rotom variant it is, but Hitmontop can spin against them all barring Scarf variants (and even this is false if you Foresight the switch).

 

[shrang]

Exactly, as said by RaikouLover 'People really need to figure out the difference between support characteristic and a lure'.

This. Venusaur is versatile and can do a lot of things, but no individual set is broken. You easily run something like DD Tyranitar with Ice Beam just to lure out Gliscor and Ice Beam it so Lucario can sweep. As mentioned, stuff like Blaziken can punch holes just as easily as Venusaur, and he's not considered broken (YET).

 

[FlareBlitz]

I think it's telling that Venusaur is causing as little centralization as it is. Weezing isn't very high in usage, and neither is Altaria, and they both completely stop nearly any Venusaur set that isn't carrying absurd hidden powers. The primary reason for this is because Pokemon that a standard team "normally" consists of are dealing with Venusaur just fine, primary due to its low base speed and vunerability to powerful physical attacks. This also prevents Venusaur from successfully abusing its resistances and attempting to force out Pokemon; what if you switch in on a Rhyperior and try to Swords Dance/Sludge Bomb and it takes out 80% of your health with an earthquake? What if you switch into an azumarill and it subs on your face, killing you with ice punch -> aqua jet the next turn? I'll never see offensive venusaur as anything but a nuisance for these reasons.

Defensive venusaurs do annoy the hell out of me, but they're far from broken. Synthesis is very easy to stall out, grass/poison is terrible coverage, and Venusaur's typing really only lets it wall grass and fighting types. Try walling rhyperior or switching into Donphan and you'll quickly find out that, even with investment, venusaur's physical defense is mediocre.

I'm going to be perfectly honest here. While I can see why Milotic deserves to be nominated and discussed, I would sooner nominate Jynx than Venusaur. There. I said it. Jynx > Venusaur.

 

[PK Gaming]

Honestly, Venusaur reminds of Breloom in OU. Now before you guys fly off the handle, both pokemon both can incapacitate their counters with a sleeping move. The difference being is that Venusaur can run a slew of different sets, and that is what irks people the most. Arcanine and Firey friends eat it from a LO Sludgebomb, SD Saur makes Registeel cry, etc*.

Heh. If it gets banned, that would be a disappointment. I mean nothing in UU can really match up to that sheer versatility. (It's been on 90% of my team's)

I would sooner nominate Jynx than Venusaur. There. I said it. Jynx > Venusaur.

Seconded. Fucking Lovely kiss...

Really I don't want to see anything get banned. I hope we can hold out until something drops.


PS: I think bulky Restalk Altaria can be considered as a *universal* counter.

 

[M BLADE]

Honestly, Venusaur reminds of Breloom in OU. Now before you guys fly off the handle, both pokemon both can incapacitate their counters with a sleeping move.

If so, Bellossom also reminds Breloom.
And Parasect.
Don't forget Carnivine.

People: Venusaur is versatile? Yes.
But is there anything Venusaur stands out besides being an all around solid poke? Or are you planning to nominate Vensaur for being that?

 

[Yuggles]

Well apparently, banning Venusaur would likely make Milotic too hard to handle, which in turn would get it banned and make Moltres too good...is it worth two months of an unbalanced metagame and nonstop arguing just to ban Venu? I agree with all the people who say Venu has only been brought up to stir things up. I don't see how Venu is any better in this meta than in the few since it's jumped to #1...Last time, it countered Raikou and was as good/bad against Froslass as a lot of other Pokemon. It's unbelievable how everyone strived for a perfect metagame and now it might get messed up again? (especially since gen5 is not too far away)

 

[PK Gaming]

If so, Bellossom also reminds Breloom.
And Parasect.
Don't forget Carnivine.

People: Venusaur is versatile? Yes.
But is there anything Venusaur stands out besides being an all around solid poke? Or are you planning to nominate Vensaur for being that?

And both pokemon are competitively viable in their respective tier's of fort.
Come on man.

 

[Rolf]

In lieu of all the Venusaur discussion, I'm going to make another post about Milotic that basically outlines the pointers that I see that would make it our true first defensive characteristic suspect. As heysup said in his nomination, Cressy in reality wasn't banned for it's ability to wall most of the metagame, but for it's ability to set up and sweep using its massive defenses with the SubCM set. The defensive characteristic has not truly been defined yet. I just want to point out some things that I think show that Milotic could possibly be our first defensive characteristic nominee/BL other than the physical aspects. While reading please remember that each one of the points might not be contrived 100% by Milotic, but each still has a common thread that leads back to it.

1) The rise of Venusaur (& Roserade/Shaymin)

Lets take a look at some stats from a long time ago. Back in May of 2009, during the Crobat and Shaymin era, Milotic sat at #5, used on 14.8% of teams. Shaymin weighed in at #2, on 21.5% of teams and Roserade weighed in just behind at #6, on 14.5% of teams. August 2009, Yanmega. Milotic sits at #3. Roserade at #1. During the Raikou era Milotic usage takes a large hit and Venusaur usage rises to #1 but this is due almost solely to Raikou who Venusaur happened to check quite handily. Now, May 2010, Venusaur still sits on its throne as #1 and Milotic sits queen at #2. When Milotic usage rises, bulky-yet-powerful grass usage follows.

What was the point of this? Venusaur/Roserade usage is always, except in the case of Raikou, tied very closely to Milotic usage. When one went away to OU, another bulky grass/poison type came to fill its place. While also due to other smaller factors, the largest trend that these stats show is that Milotic has to be accompanied by a bulky grass type in order to keep the metagame from being a Milotic metagame. Since the Crobat/Shaymin era, Milotic and essentially Venusaur have been sitting king and queen per se at the top of UU.

I guess you could say, "of course if Milotic usage goes up a grass type will follow it just like when Alakazam usage rises, Spiritomb follows, it's just to balance the metagame". While this might be true, the sheer dominance of these two forces are shown by their twin perch at the top of UU. While Alakazam and Spiritomb sit at numbers 8 and 9. They just aren't as pronounced.

Venusaur and Milotic sit on the throne at the top of the UU castle. I see it like a forced marriage. Venusaur only married Milotic because he lusted for her and had the power to kill her if he wanted, so queen Milotic agreed and former-king (lesbian queen?) Roserade gave mutual consent before he (she?) died, who had gotten the royalty from Shaymin who was the original con-man (woman again?). Milotic has all the power but none of the common folk know it because Venusaur/Roserade/Shaymin is the king, the figurehead. Except for a short stint where Raikou was a joker and hijacked control, Milotic has always been in true control of the metagame except for the one grass-typed stinker in front of her.

2) The decline of offense

Just as pronounced this test as the "symbiosis" between Milotic and Venusaur is the declining use of full-on offensive teams. I know many of the good UU players still play offense but I feel this is more out of habit than for other reasons. I know I personally detest stall and only moderately like playing balance. Bluewind I believe has usually played a offensive-style team also. Heysup hates stall and balance even more than I do. All three of us hate this metagame. Don't get me wrong, offense still works, but it's not the offense of old.

Part of this is due to Moltres and Rhyperior trends. Moltres beats up on all offensive pokes slower then it bar repeated priorities, preferably water type. Rhyperior, well, you just can't let it set up, ever, or it will rape you, again somewhat bar Aqua Jet.

Most of it though is that we have gotten rid of almost every offensive threat that has a chance to get past Milotic. If your team doesn't have 6 Pokemon that each can't individually take out Milotic or you're missing a Rhyperior to lure it into KO range of other Pokemon, offense just doesn't work that well. If even one Pokemon on offense is stalled out by Milotic, something is going to be hit hard as it comes in after the poke Milotic stalled out dies/that poke switches in on a Surf. Really the only Pokemon on offense that can come in on any of Milotic's attacks and set itself up are Toxicroak and Mismagius, but both hate taking Ice Beams/Surfs respectively and I can show you if you'd like how Milotic can actually take down Toxicroak with it if you really want to. The only Pokemon on offense that can come in and threaten a OHKO are Venusaur, Sceptile, Torterra, and Leafeon. I might have missed something but it'd still be a mighty small list that doesn't make for a good offensive team. The sheer amount of offensive Pokemon Milotic checks has contributed to the semi-fall of offense.

3) The rise of balance from offense

In this way, offense as I see it has shifted closer to being balance itself. Common staples of offense in today's metagame include Venusaur, Torterra, Rhyperior, Toxicroak, Intimidate Arcanine, Rotom, and Houndoom. Rotom, Houndoom, and Toxicroak only stay staples because of great typings and in the last two, great offensive and defensive synergy through abilities. All of the former could be placed on an offense team in earlier metagames but never with the bulkier spreads that people run on them now and then call offense. In the recent warstory, you can see the shift at work compared to the mindless spam last period of Froslass+Swellow+Moltres+Raikou offense. True sr + five sweeper offensive teams now just don't have the raw power any more to break the walls we've left behind to keep them in check, namely Milotic. People now go to bulkier pokemon or pokemon with immunities to fulfill their offensive needs, but in doing so lessen their offensive power. At least partially because of Milotic, offense it slowly becoming bulkier and less powerful. At what point does it become balance?

4) The absolute dependance on Milotic to check and keep the metagame from collapsing on itself. (The Apocalypse Theory)

I can count at least three times in the last three pages where clever people have pointed out that the metagame will fall to shambles if we get rid of Milotic or Venusaur to a lesser extent. Why is this? We're running out of Pokemon to ban that beat Milotic! If a Pokemon has the offenses to break past Milotic then usually it breaks through the rest of the metagame. Staraptor did it. Shaymin did it. Yanmega did it. Roserade was about to do it. Gallade did it. Honchkrow did it. Porygon-Z did it. Raikou did it. Froslass helped Moltres do it. Venusaur is now being quite seriously discussed. All of these pokemon were subsequently banned to BL. Every single one of them were either 1) able to easily break past Milotic and then devastate most of the tier through strong neutral STAB options, including Gallade, Honchkrow, and Yanmega, or 2) beat Milotic solidly with super effective STABs and do some damage to the rest of the tier but not as much as Gallade/Honch/Mega/Raptor/P-Z, which is where the rest fall. Pretty much every single suspect has centered around (offensively) beating Milotic.


Is there not a point where the evidence is there but nobody wants to believe it, or do we see it and ignore it? Milotic's defensive presence is unmatched in UU. There is nothing else in the metagame that can play around, check, or beat so many Pokemon at once. Even if we can't find tangible evidence for getting rid of a defensive Pokemon, I think that it can be done by looking at patterns in offensive trends and finding that they all link back to one Pokemon - Milotic.

 

[M BLADE]

@PK Gaming: I was trolling. Don't get me wrong, i like you man hihihi

But the way you said is wrong. I know what you were trying to say though.

Anyway: i think the metagame is just fine right now. It is stable. Nothing stands out (Milotic is a bitch, sure, but i believe it's still UU worthy. At least for now. Opinions can change), and i personally like that.

 

[PK Gaming]

Venusaur and Milotic sit on the throne at the top of the UU castle. I see it like a forced marriage. Venusaur only married Milotic because he lusted for her and had the power to kill her if he wanted, so queen Milotic agreed and former-king (lesbian queen?) Roserade gave mutual consent before he (she?) died, who had gotten the royalty from Shaymin who was the original con-man (woman again?). Milotic has all the power but none of the common folk know it because Venusaur/Roserade/Shaymin is the king, the figurehead. Except for a short stint where Raikou was a joker and hijacked control, Milotic has always been in true control of the metagame except for the one grass-typed stinker in front of her.

Best post in the entire megathread. Seriously, this is priceless.
10/10 Would sig if I could.

Edit: So this post isn't useless. I was on the fence about Milotic being BL but the whole post convinved me otherwise. My only question is how are we going to deal with Moltres and Houndoom now? Really Slowking and Slowbro have got pursuiting issues, so that just leaves us with Blastoise. Can he he really do it? Can he keep the fires in check?