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np: UU - Can't Touch This

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Posting to say that as a Sunny Day user that Cresselia is completely broken, Modest Moltres LO Fire Blast barely 2hkos IN THE SUN, and if it has CM or Thunder Wave + Moonlight I have no chance of killing it(and Moltres is the only poke on my team who has a chance, Shiftry and Typhlosion don't come close). Damnit LN you were right. :(

Heysup you make me laugh, saying you wanted every previous suspect banned and now saying Cress is not broken. Really? In my opinion, and I'm sure many agree, Cress is on a whole 'nother level than any Poke bar Yanmega/Crobat/Honchkrow, who are all banned for good (all of them centralized UU, as the latter 3 had only a couple "counters" and Cress is hard as hell to take down for any team. It walls so many...)

About Porygon, I'm biased here since I usually run speedy teams, but PZ seems relatively underwhelming.
 
Class said:
Heysup you make me laugh
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What can I say, I'm a funny guy.

About Cress:

After some more matches I am at least starting to lean more to Cresselia being broken, simply because it is really not possible to OHKO without Explosion or boosting your stats and it practically fits the guideline we call the "defensive characteristic" word-for-word.

I will say that I am definitely having an easier time dealing with Cresselia than I was having with Froslass, Crobat, Shaymin, and definitely Abomasnow in their respective metagames. Cresselia is at least something you can easily switch into, outspeed, outstall, or set up against, while the others simply don't give you that options.

So is it broken? Probably. Is it that hard to handle? Not really. Not like the other BL / previously BL Pokemon.

What spreads are people even using on Cress? Lots seem to be easily 2HKOed by Moltres / Magmortar (yes I was using Magmortar).

Also, does anyone else miss Roserade as much as I do? It is like the one thing all of my teams are missing (Specially Bulky Grass-type with base 90 Speed and Sleep Powder, high SpA, etc).

If OU people would just stop using Heracross and Roserade that would be great. Thanks.
 
ummm what about SD Rhyperior?

it can boost in front of Cresselia without the threat of thunderwave, and Ice beam does about 35.5% - 41.9% factoring in Solid Rock, only thing is that it is really slow and needs paralysis support to work
 
I find an excellent way to take out Cresselia is to give it a scarf. CM versions get completely neutered, and a locked Cresselia is probably the easiest thing in existence to set up on.

And speaking of Scarves, Scarf-Z is really good. Download's +1 satk just for switching in makes it extremely dangerous, and you can trick the scarf onto a troublesome Chansey, Cress, Umbreon, or whatever. Modest Scarf-Z is just a generally good revenge killer, though if you really want to hit some of the faster threats, Timid lets you get the drop on Scarf base 80s and RP Torterra.
 
I wonder if Super Fang is getting more popular now that Cresselia is in UU. There are a lot of Super Fangers in UU, after all.

A good Super Fang user, though a little gimmicky, is Bibarel. With 252 HP / 252 SpD and a Careful nature, he can make very good use of his many special resists. Using Unaware as the ability, he's a near perfect counter to Cresselia (ignores all CMs and Charge Beam boosts), only losing to the TrickScarf set. Even Charge Beam only does 15.5% - 18.8% from the RestTalk variant. This isn't the only reason this variant counters Cresselia though. Bibarel also has Taunt to stop recovery and screendancing, which means he can Super Fang Cresselia without fear of her recovering the damage off with Moonlight.

While Bibarel may seem a tad gimmicky at first, with the set Taunt/Waterfall/Super Fang/(Thunder Wave/Swagger/Yawn/Toxic/Return/Stealth Rock), he can comfortably abuse his resistances and fire off some Super Fangs and spread some status around the team, or set up Stealth Rock if you choose.

Just to show that Bibarel isn't a total gimmick, it should also be noted that he can comfortably take out Mismagius if she's not using Thunderbolt (ie. a CM or SubPlot version), as well as any sort of Spiritomb thanks to Unaware. Umbreon is also stuffed, as well as RestTalk Registeel. He can also act as a check for NP Houndoom (which from what I take it is pretty popular), since LO Dark Pulse doesn't 2HKO while Waterfall OHKOs Houndoom. Bibarel handles all variants of Slowbro very well too. He's also very useful for ruining Baton Passes from things like Drifblim due to Unaware.

While I'm obviously not saying every team needs a Bibarel now, you should try it out.
 
I've also been having success beating Cresselia with the Cosmic Power / Belly Drum Clefable in the analysis. Switch it in on anything but twave to get your Toxic Orb activated and Cosmic Power up while it does whatever it does. It will do next to nothing to you. As an added bonus, Ice Beam can't freeze you due to Toxic Orb. SpD drops from Psychic are also moot due to Cosmic Power.

Once you feel safe enough, Belly Drum to send your attack to acceptable levels for a Belly Drummer and start attacking with STAB +6 Toxic Facade. Bar a powerful crit or a ghost type, nothing will be stopping your rampage.

Of course, people are like "What about ghosts they're all over augh". Just use CB Spiritomb, CB Drapion, whatever pursuiter fits your fancy and have fun using Cressy as free setup bait.

Alternatively just use Encore :)
 
Like the previous metagames, I'll probably dip into this metagame later on when everything is settled, the standards are set, and until we get a clear picture of these new comers. Alright, I finally played a lot of games to day to get a good picture of what these guys are. Here are my two cents:

- Although we rarely get a defensive suspect in any tiers, Cresselia seems to fit the criteria since it can easily wall a portion of the metagame. Cresselia can run so many sets and they are all effective in their own way. It isn't impossible to beat though, there are several checks to it.


  • Chansey seems to be a great check on CM variants since Chansey can inflict poison status and constantly heal off +6 Psychic (if it even reaches that high). Sub CM variants are beat by Umbreon for the most part.
  • After hiding under the shadows for a bit, Taunt Mismagius really takes the cake on this metagame - particulary CM over Nasty Plot. Calm Mind allows Mismagius to combat with Cresselia while Taunting any attempts to to heal off Calm Mind anything. Chansey can't really check Mismagius if it attempts to switch in. Registeel is your safest bet, but it is non existent at the moment.
  • Psycho Shift versions are harder to beat from experience and watching games since you can't use Toxic on it. Taunt Houndoom is another one I toyed with, getting free Will-O-Wisps and Taunting any attempts at paralysis. Nasty Plot in the process and can get a possible sweep.
That's all I can say for Cresselia, its a small pool of checks since its all I actually tested to combat with it.

For Porygon-Z - a force to be reckoned with and I'm surprised Cresselia is overshadowing PZ in terms of dominance. Yeah, I'm not going to lie right now, I have literally 6-0d a team about 3 times today with a simple Nasty Plot set. There really isn't any answer to it once it gets Nasty Plot up when you look at its Speed and power. I'm on the fence with Pz since its been pretty difficult to get nasty plot up. But when I get the boost up, its been easy to sweep almost everytime. Pz should get more love in the near future. If anyone can think of a solid counter or check for Pz outside of priority hits, be my guest.

2c
 
The fact most of Cresselia counters are either Dugtrio bait or Pursuit bait, makes the situation even worse, and Shed Shell is only an understandable item on Chansey.
 
I agree with P2 being underrated right now, and with an NP it WILL tear through slower team. Only issue is it pretty easily revenged by anything with more than base 90 speed.
 
j. franky said:
If anyone can think of a solid counter or check for Pz outside of priority hits, be my guest.
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So then is Belly Drum Charizard broken? The same thing applies, and it gets a Sub + Belly Drum off actually easier than Porygon-Z because Earthquake is more common than Shadow Ball, and it can't be statused while setting up.

I agree that P-Z is very underrated though. I really enjoy its scarf set, it is a great check against Offensive teams, and can actually put the hurt on with Download.

I dislike Adaptability, because Tri Attack is so easy to wall. Especially since Froslass exists.

Also, Modest Moltres is unbelievable. It 2HKOes Cress, and with Spikes it has practically 0 switch-ins (look at my Froslass paragraphs for further details).

I really think the MVP of the tier at the moment is not Cress, but Absol. Absol is literally unstoppable, depending on prediction. For example, a lucky / skilled (whatever you want to call prediction) Absol user is almost impossible to take out since most of its checks need to predict right due to Sucker Punch (SubDugtrio, SubRaikou). On top of this, Absol makes an incredible switch-in to most Cresselia. Hitmontop needs to see more use because of this.

I don't think Absol is broken, but it is definitely a more valuable team member than Cresselia is imo (even though Cresselia is "likely" broken).

Froslass is fucking irritating as usual....
 
Yesterday into this morning I thought I had a good idea of where Cress and P-Z truly belong. However, tonight I'm not so sure. There have been a lot of complaints about how Cress "walls a majority of the tier" but I don't think that is entirely true. A majority of Pokemon are hardly ever immediately threaten my Cress and thus have a turn or so to do something productive. And so once again (like I always seem to do at the beginning of each new test), I'd have to ask everyone to 'think outside of the box'.

Some may have noticed and some may have not... but the cool thing to do right now is to carry Support Moves. Toxic, Will-O-Wisp, Super Fang, T-Wave, Knock Off, Taunt, Haze, Heal Bell, Encore, Substitute, Screens, Etc... Etc... The three that I bolded are moves that I feel could/would/should have the greatest impact in battles. Taunt prevents all of the previously mentioned moves and then some. Encore (specifically from Clefable) estabilshes momentum for your team. Knock Off, albiet uncommon, could perhaps be the most useful move for Bulky Offensive teams. I personally enjoy not having to fight against Leftovers for my 2-3HKO's (Example: Houndoom vs Milotic) and so I use Knock Off for that.

Anyways, the point being, I think that slipping an additional Support Move on a few of your team Pokemon will go a long way.

Also, my original thoughts was that P-Z was undeniably BL and Cress was borderline BL (leaning towards BL). However, I am now reconsidering and am feeling that both are leaning more towards UU.
 
I've been using a DS Cresselia on a brand-new team and playing almost all day, and I have to agree that it is a pain the ass to take down. Usually, something is going to get paralyzed or poisoned before it kicks the bucket. However, I haven't found it very hard to deal with. TrickBand Spiritomb works wonders, since most Cresselia will stay in to try and Toxic/Psycho Shift you, rather than switch out. Yes, Spiritomb ends up getting crippled in the process, but I've always found it to be vastly worth it. Even if you get a Toxic/Flame Orb, you can Trick it onto something else later. I've found Encore to be quite handy as well, being able to lock CM and ResTalk sets into set up moves. I use a Jumpluff with U-Turn over Substitute, and I find Cresselia tends to give me many free turns to rack up secondary damage with Leech Seed/SR/Spikes and allow sweepers to set up. I still think it's possibly BL material, since it's ridiculously bulky, but only time will tell if it's actually broken. I can see an even bigger rise in Spiritomb and also Umbreon soon, though.

Surprisingly, I haven't seen as many Porygon-Z as I would have expected, seeing how it just dropped down. I haven't really found it to be too problematic, since CB Spiritomb tends to handle Choiced variants quite handily with Pursuit, and non-Choiced tend to be SubPlotters which get Encored or simply aren't allowed to get a Sub up.

I have to say, though, Absol is a huge nuisance. If I don't have Jumpluff to Encore its SD, I'm usually in big trouble...
 
MagicMaster87 said:
TrickBand Spiritomb works wonders, since most Cresselia will stay in to try and Toxic/Psycho Shift you, rather than switch out.
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These people are idiots.

You should never stay in against a Spiritomb because either it's going to Trick something on you, or it's going to set up Calm Minds in your face.

Also to all of you people saying to use a Pursuiter, yeah have fun with that.

Drapion's CB Pursuit: 43.7% - 51.8% (not even a 2HKO... which means that Crunch isn't a 2HKO... which means that there's no reason Cresselia should even switch out against Drapion once it knows its banded)
 
Smurf. said:
No. Just no.

How is absol any different than before?
Psycho shift cress makes it about as useful as dog shit.
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I understand what heysup is saying...He is saying that with great prediction absol will destroy any team...That is the overall gameplay is prediction and absol is one of those that can play with it and it pays big time when your right
 
Having used CM Cress, i can say that not one absol has managed to succesfully counter me. I mean really, the user must be retarded to be countered. Where absol falls apart is the fact that it is a 'reactive' pokemon. In other words, by the time you switch in, Cress has at least 1 CM under its belt. What are you gonna do? Shit all that's what. CB Megahorn is the best you can do, I fuck you over with hp fighting, then instant recovery later on.

No.
 
Smurf. said:
Having used CM Cress, i can say that not one absol has managed to succesfully counter me. I mean really, the user must be retarded to be countered. Where absol falls apart is the fact that it is a 'reactive' pokemon. In other words, by the time you switch in, Cress has at least 1 CM under its belt. What are you gonna do? Shit all that's what. CB Megahorn is the best you can do, I fuck you over with hp fighting, then instant recovery later on.

No.
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Well no one would first switch there absol in on cresselia out of risk of thunder wave..the scenario you just said...and burn notice...and the risk of DS...point absol runs a huge risk of switching into cressilia making it defintely not a counter.... but a threat to cresselia none the less and many more
 
Smurf. said:
Having used CM Cress, i can say that not one absol has managed to succesfully counter me. I mean really, the user must be retarded to be countered. Where absol falls apart is the fact that it is a 'reactive' pokemon. In other words, by the time you switch in, Cress has at least 1 CM under its belt. What are you gonna do? Shit all that's what. CB Megahorn is the best you can do, I fuck you over with hp fighting, then instant recovery later on.

No.
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I agree with the sentiment; I run mine with psychic/hp fighting/cm/moonlight and I've had no major problems with Absol. This is (I suspect) mostly because CB Absol is still not very common since it has little utility outside of denting Cress by virtue of it's rather meh speed.

Cress does fall to Specs Mismagius, though. Learned that the hard way.
 
if porygon-z gets a NP up, and you don't have really strong/SE priority, or at least a scarf revenge killer, GG.

which is great cause you don't have to worry about milotic anymore

also, scarf pinsir can revenge kill anything in the tier. It's effectively scarf-cross with SR weakness. It's got the same attacks, same stats, less weaknesses, EQ and better abilities than guts. not sure why you're all waiting for hera to fall when pinsir is effectively the same thing without CC stab
 
itsbigfoot said:
if porygon-z gets a NP up, and you don't have really strong/SE priority, or at least a scarf revenge killer, GG.
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Really, most teams should have priority already. I've had a CB Azumarill since time immemorial to deal with Honchkrow and to revenge kill other weakened threats, including Zam, Dugtrio, and Rhyperior. I also use Blaziken for this purpose, although neither can OHKO Pory-Z; both require it to be around ~70% or so, if I remember correctly. Techitop will OHKO, though, and I have found it to be useful in other situations as well.

itsbigfoot said:
also, scarf pinsir can revenge kill anything in the tier. It's effectively scarf-cross with SR weakness. It's got the same attacks, same stats, less weaknesses, EQ and better abilities than guts. not sure why you're all waiting for hera to fall when pinsir is effectively the same thing without CC stab
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This is fundamentally incorrect. Pinsir lacks Megahorn. A standard Swords Dance Pinsir can switch in on a Cress while it CMs and strip about 50% away with an unboosted STAB X-Scissor, enough to guarantee a 2HKO factoring Stealth Rock on CM variants; but a much smaller chance on Support variants. Pinsir does, however, take 25% switching in, 55-65% from an unboosted Psychic from the CM variant, and will face a 10% LO recoil. So, it would look something like this.
(A +1 Psychic would do 82.7%-97.4%, a guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock down.)

A sent out Pinsir (-25%)
B's Cresselia used Calm Mind
A's Pinsir used X-Scissor (~68%) (10% LO recoil)
B's Cresselia used Psychic (Guaranteed OHKO)

Crap. Back to the drawing board. I attempted to counter Cress with my lovely Agililer, but alas, it didn't have nearly the power, even when Adamant/252/LO. The great sadnesses of life.
 
ChristovaOnIce said:
Really, most teams should have priority already. I've had a CB Azumarill since time immemorial to deal with Honchkrow and to revenge kill other weakened threats, including Zam, Dugtrio, and Rhyperior. I also use Blaziken for this purpose, although neither can OHKO Pory-Z; both require it to be around ~70% or so, if I remember correctly. Techitop will OHKO, though, and I have found it to be useful in other situations as well.



This is fundamentally incorrect. Pinsir lacks Megahorn. A standard Swords Dance Pinsir can switch in on a Cress while it CMs and strip about 50% away with an unboosted STAB X-Scissor, enough to guarantee a 2HKO factoring Stealth Rock on CM variants; but a much smaller chance on Support variants. Pinsir does, however, take 25% switching in, 55-65% from an unboosted Psychic from the CM variant, and will face a 10% LO recoil. So, it would look something like this.
(A +1 Psychic would do 82.7%-97.4%, a guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock down.)

A sent out Pinsir (-25%)
B's Cresselia used Calm Mind
A's Pinsir used X-Scissor (~68%) (10% LO recoil)
B's Cresselia used Psychic (Guaranteed OHKO)

Crap. Back to the drawing board. I attempted to counter Cress with my lovely Agililer, but alas, it didn't have nearly the power, even when Adamant/252/LO. The great sadnesses of life.
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I don't really consider cressy an offensive threat that needs to be revenge killed. nor did i say pinsir was a counter to cressy. it's a revenge killer (scarfed, no clue where you got SD + LO) for things like Raikou, Porygon-Z, zam and the other offensive pokemon, since it can hit all of them SE with something.

if you want it to counter cressy run CB and a good taunt lead and/or spinner
 
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