And wouldn't using Trick put you in the same situation anyway...? Unless you trick a Band onto it, your only advantage is knowing it's choiced...
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np: UU - Can't Touch This
- Thread starter reachzero
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And wouldn't using Trick put you in the same situation anyway...? Unless you trick a Band onto it, your only advantage is knowing it's choiced...
I've been wondering this as well, if you lose enough speed to only outspeed base 80's, hitmonlee will be faster than you, bulky or not Z will die to a cc or any of hitmonlee's fighting types besides mach punch, but what item is important as well, should you use nasty plot,sub,lefties; or nasty plot, recover, life orb, or a lum berry or what? lum may be the way to go, cuz after one nasty plot it's probably gonna be strong enough to OHKO just about everything that doesn't resist
any thoughts???
is it just me or does every froslass run a different set?
like, I'm usually fine with it, since my current mesprit lead 2hko's them all and outruns everything but the scarf version, but is there any reason why bulky/focus sash/scarf versions exist? isn't there a clear cut "best lead" set?
although I should try something with a powerful SE attack now that there are very few sashes
like, I'm usually fine with it, since my current mesprit lead 2hko's them all and outruns everything but the scarf version, but is there any reason why bulky/focus sash/scarf versions exist? isn't there a clear cut "best lead" set?
although I should try something with a powerful SE attack now that there are very few sashes
Try a special sharpedo anti-lead, or even a mixed one with dark pulse. It works well for all variants.
Actually, I've encountered four different types of uxie: Trick, standard, DS, and memento. It was alot easier for sharpedo when everyone ran the standard set. Anyone got a definitive counter to every set?
At the height of Uxie's popularity as a lead (during the Crobat meta and a little while into the Yanmega meta iirc), the most effective lead I used against it was:
Pinsir @ Lum Berry
Mold Breaker/Hyper Cutter
Adamant 252 ATK 252 SPE
-X-Scissor
-Earthquake/Close Combat
-Stone Edge/Protect
-Stealth Rock
The bolded options are what I used then. The slashed in options are probably what would work best now. Essentially, the idea behind this Pinsir was to outrun and 2hko all defensive Uxie leads while avoiding paralysis from Thunderwave with Lum, and to make an efficient revenge killer/late game cleaner if tricked a scarf or a band. When Ambipom became more popular after Crobat got banned, I stopped using this lead, since it absolutely needs protect (or max HP) to survive Fake Out -> Return and Close Combat to ohko Ambipom, which substantially reduces its effectiveness.
Pinsir @ Lum Berry
Mold Breaker/Hyper Cutter
Adamant 252 ATK 252 SPE
-X-Scissor
-Earthquake/Close Combat
-Stone Edge/Protect
-Stealth Rock
The bolded options are what I used then. The slashed in options are probably what would work best now. Essentially, the idea behind this Pinsir was to outrun and 2hko all defensive Uxie leads while avoiding paralysis from Thunderwave with Lum, and to make an efficient revenge killer/late game cleaner if tricked a scarf or a band. When Ambipom became more popular after Crobat got banned, I stopped using this lead, since it absolutely needs protect (or max HP) to survive Fake Out -> Return and Close Combat to ohko Ambipom, which substantially reduces its effectiveness.
If you run a different Froslass set than everyone else, you are less likely to get beaten by Froslass's usual counters. For example, the Scarf set beats Electrode, bulky beats Ambipom, and Focus Sash beats "most" other leads quite easily, and almost always gets 2 layers of spikes min.
It's almost impossible to prepare for all of them; same reason "all" Raikou run different Hidden Powers.
lol i remember that set very well as it was a very good counter to my trick uxie lead....it just got to the point where i gave you the scarf and set up with someone else....but against that lead it was very hard to set up rocks against it and keep uxie alive....lol that has been the hardest lead i've ever faced :D
Yeah Jak, I still remember exactly what you did, too. Trick with Uxie and go to Toxicroak on the X-Scissor to set up SubPunch. Ah, back then the UU ladder was full of the same 10 people and Yanmega was terrorizing everything. Man those were good times.
ahhhh nostalgia for the good old days
scarf porygon-z is a really good pokemon. this set is almost certainly not broken but it's a very reliable scarfer. i'm using download with tri attack / dark pulse / hp ground / trick and it very rarely fails to do something worthwhile in a battle. it can revenge tons of offensive threats with nice satk + a possible download boost and can mess with balanced teams with trick. it's sort of like ou rotom-a in that regard (and i prefer this set over scarf rotom in uu probably mainly due to download and its relative lack of weaknesses).
download is very very useful lol it's a free choice specs without the choice if you switch in right for crying out loud...
against uxies i just hit it with whatever my lead has as a stab attack (kabutops stone edge and now lol monferno fire blast) until it gets into ko range for a sweeper. i guess i don't really mind it much just because i'm using a heavy offensive team and my leads aren't meant to stick around. with more balanced teams in the past i usually go to something that doesn't mind paralysis and can hit it relatively hard in return, or something that sets up on it (subroost moltres comes to mind for slower uxies).
scarf porygon-z is a really good pokemon. this set is almost certainly not broken but it's a very reliable scarfer. i'm using download with tri attack / dark pulse / hp ground / trick and it very rarely fails to do something worthwhile in a battle. it can revenge tons of offensive threats with nice satk + a possible download boost and can mess with balanced teams with trick. it's sort of like ou rotom-a in that regard (and i prefer this set over scarf rotom in uu probably mainly due to download and its relative lack of weaknesses).
download is very very useful lol it's a free choice specs without the choice if you switch in right for crying out loud...
against uxies i just hit it with whatever my lead has as a stab attack (kabutops stone edge and now lol monferno fire blast) until it gets into ko range for a sweeper. i guess i don't really mind it much just because i'm using a heavy offensive team and my leads aren't meant to stick around. with more balanced teams in the past i usually go to something that doesn't mind paralysis and can hit it relatively hard in return, or something that sets up on it (subroost moltres comes to mind for slower uxies).
hmm whistle that set could be nice as an anti lead to uxie, as most run defense > Spc. Def. It can hit before it gets light screen up and wouldnt mind trick scarf sets either.
i'll certainly give it a run.
EDIT: From the Smogon calc, a DP after download boost would do 66% - 78%. So its a guarenteed 2hko.
i'll certainly give it a run.
EDIT: From the Smogon calc, a DP after download boost would do 66% - 78%. So its a guarenteed 2hko.
Just a quick summary of how I view the metagame:
the water/fire/grass core died as soon as the new list was announced, so the whole metagame revolves around ghost, dark, normal, fighting and psychic.
Bulky normals are the best sweepers out there right now, especially physical ones, since everything is packing mass SpD to take a hit from the ducks.
Raikou has pretty much been a non-issue. everything either has enough SpD and attack to not let it set up, or EQ/Encore/Trick/Taunt, which it doesn't like
Leads have boiled down to Ambipom, Pixies, Froslass, and bad, with a few rare exceptions (A Clefable and a Moltres are the only ones who have ever made me worry about the lead). I actually blame Uxie more than anything, as most leads that beat ambipom/froslass do nothing to Uxie, who sets up for free on almost anyone without a really fast Taunt/ridiculously powerful Crunch.
CB Spiritomb vs any Alakazam is about as one sided as Tyranitar vs Shedinja with stealth rock in play.
Cresselia needs to go, porygon can be tested more (Spiritomb and Registeel are both great checks), but Cressy can do too much.
Right now I'd say suspects are:
Porygon-Z (under offensive characteristics of broken)
Froslass (under support characteristics of broken, though personally I don't think she's BL)
Uxie (under support characteristics of broken)
Cresselia (Under all characteristics of retardedly broken)
maybe Moltres, though I think the SR weakness more than balances it out
since everyone else can write paragraphs on why they think Cressy/Froslass/Pory need to go, I'll explain Uxie
Lead Uxie can either be Trick Scarf, or some combination of Screen/SR support with U-turn, Memento, Psychic (/zen headbutt), T-wave or Yawn filling the rest of the slots.
Trick Scarf immediately cripples most scarfless-leads, as they're locked into one move, usually with Uxie free to do what it wants afterwards (occasionally taunted). If it avoids the taunt, it can setup stealth rock and provide paralysis support due to the forced switches, good speed and amazing bulk. If it gets Taunted, it U-turns/switches out to a counter while the now-scarfed pokemon leaves due to it being stuck on taunt.
More standard Uxie leads have problems with faster taunts, but can setup dual eather or any one of its other useful filler moves, preventing very many safe switch ins.
sounds like a normal good lead right? here's the kicker. Unlike other setups leads (froslass), Uxie has absolutely NO TROUBLE coming back in at almost any point in the game, as it can take the ever common fighting and ground moves no problem, as well as any move coming off a lowish stat, like a bulky water's surf. once in, it has the speed to set up one screen before the opponent can do anything, and the bulk to take a screened hit while it sets up the second screen. and normally it can take the second hit and either paralyze the opponent or use memento to cripple them/force a switch while your new pokemon sets up. while this wasn't as much of an issue in previous metagames, the setup sweeper threat list has been slowly building, so screens now allows the following to set up effectively for free (in alphabetical order):
SD Absol
RP Aggron
DD Altaria
CM Cresselia
SD Drapion
SD/DD Feraligatr
NP Houndoom
SD Kabutops (ironically Uxie can also set up rain)
SD Leafeon
CM/NP Mismagius
NP Porygon Z
CM Raikou
RP/SD Rhyperior
Sceptile
SD Scyther
Swellow
SD/NP Toxicroak
and that isn't even counting RD (which uxie is also capable of setting up) sweepers like Omastar and Ludicolo, or NU sweepers like SD Ursaring or SD Pinsir (or DD crawdaunt, but I've yet to see that done, so i'll reserve judgement on that). and everything on that list has a very good chance of sweeping when it has screen support and a crippled pokemon to set up on.
Uxie has too many options to set up too many sweepers, so I personally consider it more suspect than Froslass, and much more suspect than Raikou.
But then again, we'll see what happens when ccresselia is out
the water/fire/grass core died as soon as the new list was announced, so the whole metagame revolves around ghost, dark, normal, fighting and psychic.
Bulky normals are the best sweepers out there right now, especially physical ones, since everything is packing mass SpD to take a hit from the ducks.
Raikou has pretty much been a non-issue. everything either has enough SpD and attack to not let it set up, or EQ/Encore/Trick/Taunt, which it doesn't like
Leads have boiled down to Ambipom, Pixies, Froslass, and bad, with a few rare exceptions (A Clefable and a Moltres are the only ones who have ever made me worry about the lead). I actually blame Uxie more than anything, as most leads that beat ambipom/froslass do nothing to Uxie, who sets up for free on almost anyone without a really fast Taunt/ridiculously powerful Crunch.
CB Spiritomb vs any Alakazam is about as one sided as Tyranitar vs Shedinja with stealth rock in play.
Cresselia needs to go, porygon can be tested more (Spiritomb and Registeel are both great checks), but Cressy can do too much.
Right now I'd say suspects are:
Porygon-Z (under offensive characteristics of broken)
Froslass (under support characteristics of broken, though personally I don't think she's BL)
Uxie (under support characteristics of broken)
Cresselia (Under all characteristics of retardedly broken)
maybe Moltres, though I think the SR weakness more than balances it out
since everyone else can write paragraphs on why they think Cressy/Froslass/Pory need to go, I'll explain Uxie
Lead Uxie can either be Trick Scarf, or some combination of Screen/SR support with U-turn, Memento, Psychic (/zen headbutt), T-wave or Yawn filling the rest of the slots.
Trick Scarf immediately cripples most scarfless-leads, as they're locked into one move, usually with Uxie free to do what it wants afterwards (occasionally taunted). If it avoids the taunt, it can setup stealth rock and provide paralysis support due to the forced switches, good speed and amazing bulk. If it gets Taunted, it U-turns/switches out to a counter while the now-scarfed pokemon leaves due to it being stuck on taunt.
More standard Uxie leads have problems with faster taunts, but can setup dual eather or any one of its other useful filler moves, preventing very many safe switch ins.
sounds like a normal good lead right? here's the kicker. Unlike other setups leads (froslass), Uxie has absolutely NO TROUBLE coming back in at almost any point in the game, as it can take the ever common fighting and ground moves no problem, as well as any move coming off a lowish stat, like a bulky water's surf. once in, it has the speed to set up one screen before the opponent can do anything, and the bulk to take a screened hit while it sets up the second screen. and normally it can take the second hit and either paralyze the opponent or use memento to cripple them/force a switch while your new pokemon sets up. while this wasn't as much of an issue in previous metagames, the setup sweeper threat list has been slowly building, so screens now allows the following to set up effectively for free (in alphabetical order):
SD Absol
RP Aggron
DD Altaria
CM Cresselia
SD Drapion
SD/DD Feraligatr
NP Houndoom
SD Kabutops (ironically Uxie can also set up rain)
SD Leafeon
CM/NP Mismagius
NP Porygon Z
CM Raikou
RP/SD Rhyperior
Sceptile
SD Scyther
Swellow
SD/NP Toxicroak
and that isn't even counting RD (which uxie is also capable of setting up) sweepers like Omastar and Ludicolo, or NU sweepers like SD Ursaring or SD Pinsir (or DD crawdaunt, but I've yet to see that done, so i'll reserve judgement on that). and everything on that list has a very good chance of sweeping when it has screen support and a crippled pokemon to set up on.
Uxie has too many options to set up too many sweepers, so I personally consider it more suspect than Froslass, and much more suspect than Raikou.
But then again, we'll see what happens when ccresselia is out
Okay so the only few loses with my new team happens to come from a lategame Cresselia all the time. This is extremely annoying as I pack at least two checks for it and end up losing to it with 3-4 Pokemon left. Basically, when your check(s) are gone, you will lose the remainder of your team. That sounds pretty bad. Although, I don't exactly know which criteria Cresselia embodies - defensive criteria or offensive criteria? I think its a balance between both but usually a little more defensive which help it become a dominant offensive force.
I run:
Porygonz @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP/176 Spd/80 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Tri Attack
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
- Recover
With Dual Screen + Dugtrio + Spikes support and it works really really well. Enough speed to beat neutral base 80s, Max HP and the rest in SAtk (I get 358 SAtk, so its not bad). Hitmonlee is not an issue, since I run Moltres and Cresselia, and they love switching in on CCs.
If Cresselia is 'sweeping' teams consistently because she can slowly take Pokemon down one by one whilst taking endless hits, then that is the Defensive Characteristic in my book. She is winning games primarily because very little can actually break through her enormous defenses, not because she is overwhelming them offensively. Just sitting there and not dying whilst not achieving anything hardly qualifies as a strategy, never mind an Uber characteristic. If this is how people interpret the Defensive Characteristic then nothing will ever fulfill it.
Same thing with Raikou....Swellow...Absol....Houndoom...<insert sweeper>.
Cresselia's only possibly broken aspect is its ability to wall...a huge portion of the metagame (beating them as well with CM).
I rarely have trouble with Cresselia though for some reason (though i lost to one today >.>) and I really don't "overprepare for it"
I "rarely" have trouble with Cresselia as well, but that's mostly because 8/10 people on the ladder just throw it on a team and expect it to win games through it's sheer epic brokenness instead of actually worrying about synergy or even about not playing like a stoned Bidoof. Which is the same situation for any broken Pokemon in any tier, really. Even in the OU suspects tests you had people who'd just throw out a Garchomp and expect it to sweep 3 turns in; just because Garchomp was easy to deal with when handled by those players does not mean it wasn't broken.
ok, yeah, that's basically what mine looks like, i just have to build a team around it; do you have any trouble with status though??
I'm not talking about these types of players. I mean "every" Cresselia player (including many of the top 10-20 people). I haven't really had trouble against most Cresselia at all (there are a few times where i have, but those are usually ones that catch me off guard (SubCM) or outplay me).
However, that does not mean it is UU. I believe I need to test it a little more myself (my next team will probably be either Pz, Cresselia, or both). This is like the "Honchkrow argument" some people were trying to make last round, where I basically said "you need to use it yourself in order to truly know if a suspect is broken or not". I need to follow my own advice before I make up my mind on Cresselia.
I dunno, I actually didn't use Honchkrow, or Gallade, or Yanmega. And I certainly have no plans to use Cress. I just don't use broken Pokemon. I have used PGZ, but that's because I'm relatively sure that it's not broken. You don't need to use broken Pokemon to determine if they're broken or not, you just need to play against them and see their impact on a team of yours that is (presumably) solid against all other non-broken threats.
Scarf Porygon-Z is sexy and all, but Nasty Plot is an absolute monster. With Pursuit support, and a bit of paralysis support, it can absolutely maul teams, and if you use Dugtrio, then you have a clear shot.
Speaking of Scarf-Z, I think download is the superior ability. Having a chance to act like a Choice Scarf and Specs combined is too sweet to pass up, and you're going to have ghosts switching in on your STAB anyway.
However, this doesn't mean it's broken - in fact, I think P-Z is the best addition to UU in a long time. It's vulnerable to priority, has no priority of its own, lacks the speed to truly shine, and is frail. All in all, a good fit.
Speaking of Scarf-Z, I think download is the superior ability. Having a chance to act like a Choice Scarf and Specs combined is too sweet to pass up, and you're going to have ghosts switching in on your STAB anyway.
However, this doesn't mean it's broken - in fact, I think P-Z is the best addition to UU in a long time. It's vulnerable to priority, has no priority of its own, lacks the speed to truly shine, and is frail. All in all, a good fit.
Agreed. I haven't had any trouble, and I mean not at all, with PZ. Cresselia on the other hand, if your PHazer is gone, your checks, or whatever, you're going to get swept or at least walled to death. It's like a stall team all its own lol.
From experience, it is not as frail as you make out. Bulkier variants are not revenged by the likes of Azumarill's Aqua jet or Arcanine's E-Speed
Subpunch Azu vs the bulkier PZ posted above: 28.3% - 33.7%
Morning Glory Arcanine vs bulky PZ: 39.6% - 46.8%
Even the frail scarf variant isnt vulnerable to it..
Pure Physical Arcanine vs Scarf-Z: 47.3% - 55.9%
CB azu can just ohko the frail variant after life orb recoil and SR
CB huge power Azu vs Scarf-Z: 68.2% - 80.4%
I think you might have clicked Critical Hit or added another boost or something, because according to the Smogon Damage Calc CB Azumaril's Aqua Jet pulls a maximum of 50.5% against 252/0 Porygon-Z. Which makes me want to try out that PZ set now.
I'm usually fine with pory, but it is a real pain in the ass once set up. still, I think there will be enough priority running around to keep it in check though, but if the bulky set is that tough... maybe not
I would say Priority shouldnt even be a problem for porygon...you see a fighting priority coming...switch to wall...the majority of priority users can all be stopped by uxie or spiritomb (I would say Cresselia, but it has a high possibility of being banned)...but priority should definetly not stop a Z's rampage throughout a team...priority is just a hault for Z...What's stopping Z from switching out and coming in again just take one out...Priority is just for revenge killing not countering
And also...priority in UU is not for attacking...meaning that people use priority moves in UU to attack if they cannot outspeed something and desperately need the KO...there are very few who actually use priority as a main attack...Technitop/ Absol/ Arcanine(maybe someone i am forgetting) they are the three that you know they are gonna attaack you with a strong priority move...absol is a different case...
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