np: UU - Can't Touch This

[Stagnant]

I still don't understand how people think that CM Cresselia is broken when they are not 100% voting Raikou BL since everyone is simply making the same "CM Cress is broken" arguments which directly apply to Raikou as well. In fact they usually apply MORE to Raikou.

Perhaps if Cress had a weakness to EQ (or even touched by it) things would be different.

 

[Bluewind]

It's not like Cress doesn't have checks as well. Off the top of my head, Scyther, Ambipom, Haze Milotic, and CroTomb all can do well against it. There are quite a few more checks that I haven't mentioned as well. Also, Cress almost requires to have a CM up, or else it won't be doing much damage. Raikou, on the other hand, can deal out damage quickly and doesn't need to set up nearly as badly. Though IMO, you can't really compare Cress and Raikou because the way they play is quite different.

From running Scyther this stage I can say that i shit myself everytime I have to get it in against Cresselia, due to Ice Beam and Thunder Wave completely screwing it, added to the fact even an unboosted Psychic is already bothersome and rocks might not have been removed by then. Ambipom won't take the risk of switching in and can't do much to stop it but taunting, that is if it's even carrying that, which is something any player will see coming from a mile and slap it with Psychic or Hp Fighting. My opinion is still the same from the beggining of the stage: Cresselia is a broken son of a duck.

 

[HR.]

To be honest, I feel Cresselia's support sets are usually more useful than the CM set. As Heysup mentioned, I would much rather use Raikou than Cresselia because of its speed, and it being an immediate threat. Scyther, Drapion, Spiritomb, Absol, Skuntank, Umbreon, and pretty much anything with haze are pokemon I can think of off the top of my head that can counter CM Cresselia pretty well

 

[franky]

The round is ending and I'll place my input on what I will be voting. Cresselia and Froslass for BL. Although I've grown to adapt with Cresselia, its still an extremely tough Pokemon to budge. You lose a check, you lose the game, simple as that. While this may apply to other defensive Pokemon, I pointed out pages back that Cresselia's niche is her typing and ability Levitate. I mean immunity Spikes and having a weakness to some uncommon attacking typing compared to Grass, Water, Fire, etc gives it a distinction to other defensive walls in the tier. Spikes is equivalent to Stealth Rock in terms of importance in UU since most defensive Pokemon are grounded. With Cresselia being immune to it and having the defensive stats to back it up, its just difficult to take down.

For Froslass, I have to lean towards picking it for BL. I made sure I would get voting rights this round just to vote this fucker off. All of Froslass' sets are extremely annoying to face. SuicideLass is trouble for stall teams since most stall teams lack something faster than Froslass, and your practically foreshadowing your death with Destiny Bond. Any attempts to place status on it falls to Taunt. You add Spikes in the mix, a well-played Froslass can deploy more one layer of Spikes. Prolass, usually lacking Destiny Bond, has Pain Split instead and has more EVs in bulk. Basically, it will stick around the entire match deploying Spikes easily. You can't spin on it either since Ice Beam threatens one of the best Spinners in the game - Donphan. Hitmontop and they fall to Ice Beam. Its just a difficult task to spin away Spikes. Froslass is BL material.

 

[M BLADE]

So the voting is coming...
One more week huh? One more week to play against Cresselias(i never used it in UU).

Like i said, i'm not voting. Because i don't want to, and because my rating is too low ( because i quit games too much... when i face the same person twice in a day, i just quit. And sometimes when hax gets in my way... or sometimes even randomly quit... just because. And i like to use things like Pelipper too, dropping my rating even more. I'm NEVER going to have a high rating or position lol).
At least, without Cressy, some of my favorite sets are going to be more used(Bulk Up Hitmontop, i choose you!)

But i'm curious about people thoughts about Porygon Z being broken or not.

 

[GMLW]

Porygon-z is powerful, but not broken. The Sub Plot set is walled by Chansey, Registeel, and Steelix, and is outclassed by Mismagius. The Scarf set is walled by more depending on what move you just used, but can still be countered by Chansey regardless or what move it uses. It also has 90 speed, which while not bad, isn't good either. Same with its defensive stats, not bad, but not good. It also has a weakness to Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave. These traits make it easily revenge killed. So no, Porygon-z is not broken.

 

[porygon3]

In my experiences with Porygon-Z (I haven't used it recently but I used it earlier in the testing period) it was not that great. I never really did much to anybody with it and never had a problem with it. imo its biggest problem is that its main switchins are pretty good right now. For example, people normally switched in stuff like Registeel, Steelix, Aggron, Rhyperior, Spiritomb, Mismagius, etc. Most of these are pretty good against Cresselia, or some part of Rain Dance teams, etc. Something like Aggron really messes up the "balanced" type of team I normally use, since after it switches into my Porygon-Z (I didn't use HP Fighting), it Subs on the switch to Donphan and then uses Magnet Rise. I eventually had to start using Steelix to stop that, which also counters opposing Porygon-Z better than Donphan did etc.

To an extent, Choice Porygon-Z can be beaten pretty easily just as any other Choice pokemon can. It can't change moves and is either pretty slow or might have to come in at +0 which is not that threatening. Scarf is probably a bigger threat just because you hope it isn't going to outspeed whatever you have out and then it does. But I might be biased there because I consider Scarf to be the best of the 3 choice items in general. Also, any Ghost can switch into half your moveset (usually), and something like Calm Mind Spiritomb switches in and also scares away Cresselia and others.

Also I really don't see the big deal with Froslass. I used it for a while and never got 3 layers, and didn't accomplish much in general. I normally don't mind opposing Froslass either. I don't use slow setup leads (Stealth Rock Regirock etc) and I wouldn't be silly enough to use a non-attacking move against it turn 1 anyway. Imo if Froslass's Spikes are the only thing keeping Moltres around then Moltres is probably the bigger problem. Although I haven't seen him in forever either.

Raikou is beaten by the two most common special walls in the tier (Chansey/Registeel),

When using Cresselia, I don't think I have ever beaten either of these without assistance from other teammates (aka someone else does all the work in defeating them and Cresselia has to idle around until they're gone). Maybe I just wasn't using the same moveset as you.

 

[jamashawalker]

In my experiences with Porygon-Z (I haven't used it recently but I used it earlier in the testing period) it was not that great. I never really did much to anybody with it and never had a problem with it. imo its biggest problem is that its main switchins are pretty good right now. For example, people normally switched in stuff like Registeel, Steelix, Aggron, Rhyperior, Spiritomb, Mismagius, etc. Most of these are pretty good against Cresselia, or some part of Rain Dance teams, etc.

None of those counters have recovery moves nor run rest very often(except spiritomb and registeel) so switching in and out with spikes damage can limit there effectiveness to counter PZ and mismagius risks switching into dark pulse

 

[FlareBlitz]

Chansey has to watch out for trick when switching into choiced PGZ, but yeah, you're more or less right.

Edit:

"When using Cresselia, I don't think I have ever beaten either of these without assistance from other teammates (aka someone else does all the work in defeating them and Cresselia has to idle around until they're gone). Maybe I just wasn't using the same moveset as you."

Sub/CM/Psychic/HP Fighting. I don't remember the EVs, but it had a specific amount in SATK, max HP, and rest into DEF and some SPE with a Bold nature.

 

[porygon3]

Most of my opponents don't normally let me get free Spikes up (maybe that's why I have been underwhelmed with Froslass too) so that's not really a factor for me.

You are right about Mismagius, but I think the first time you see Porygon-Z switching to Mismagius is probably a safe bet if you don't have any of those others, since it will probably Tri Attack/Nasty Plot first turn depending on moveset and the player.

edit: Yeah FlareBlitz, I had Signal Beam instead of HP Fighting, with enough HP for 404/176Spd/240SpAtk and Modest. It couldn't beat stuff like Registeel obviously but it was a lot better against the more offensive counters like Drapion or Mismagius, and also Spiritomb but he pretty much forces Cresselia out regardless. It was also better against opposing Cresselia, and did enough to break their Sub with Signal Beam while they couldn't break mine with their own Signal Beam. And most were slow ones, probably Bold like yours, so I was attacking before they could re-use Sub and it was just "how long until I get my critical and then sweep the rest of their team?",

 

[jamashawalker]

Porygon-z is powerful, but not broken. The Sub Plot set is walled by Chansey, Registeel, and Steelix, and is outclassed by Mismagius. The Scarf set is walled by more depending on what move you just used, but can still be countered by Chansey regardless or what move it uses. It also has 90 speed, which while not bad, isn't good either. Same with its defensive stats, not bad, but not good. It also has a weakness to Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave. These traits make it easily revenge killed. So no, Porygon-z is not broken.

Sigh no matter how i sound it'll sound like a douche statement hahaha...the sub plot set which has now been named Bulky PZ is designed to beat Chansey and registeel...and chansey is almost a limited switch in due to trick on the choice scarf set...

90 base speed in this UU metagame is pretty fast...UU isnt really the speedy type of metagame like OU and ubers....In UU is more based on bulky slow attackers and very few speedy frail sweepers...to have speed is almost broken (Hence why we are looking at raikou) PZ doesnt have the best bulk but certainly not 2HKOed by a weak support move and defintely does not die easily to priority moves...mach punch users are very easy to see coming, (really only the hitmon family uses it in UU) so switching out is absoluting no problem at all hahaha...and only two pokemon use vacuum wave in UU, blaziken and toxicroak...Blaziken does 81% with vacuum wave, toxicroak does 68%..and that's just against the ones without any HP nor Spdef investment..still very easy to just switch out of and come back again..PZ is really drawing the line of brokeness and if very difficult to take down even for a prepared team

 

[Rolf]

Not to sound all up-high and mighty here, but I believe that the people that are qualifying for voting should not be able to argue about how "I have no problems with this so it's UU." Obviously you aren't the one having problems with the suspects; the people you're facing are having the problems! Instead you should focus on whether, in your experience, the suspect is broken. I believe this is why SEXP is required in OU voting, and I believe it is applicable here. If you haven't spent time playing with the suspects, you shouldn't vote. If you're not spending time playing with the suspects, then you're probably spending time thinking of counters/checks. So of course you're not going to have (many) problems! So if you haven't, for this last week, play with the suspects. Most of the time it means pretty easy wins anyways. (Cressy *cough*)

Everyone else that's not qualifying - you're probably not playing with Cresselia enough. Because using it alone is almost enough to qualify yourself...

Cresselia: BL The ease of sweeping with this thing is rediculous. By far the best set is the Sub/CM with Psychic + HP Ground and max Spe Timid. This set breaks at least two of the characteristics at once. (offensive and defensive) Alternatively you can run a pure defensive set that basically will wall whichever spectrum you EV in, or both if EV'd well and can paralyze stuff or Toxic things.

I've been running a Gorebyss defensive pass team the last couple days, and it's just overkill if Cressy gets even one Iron Defense + Agility boost. I think some can testify to that.

PS: Some people have been using Curse Spiritomb lately to counter SubCress. This is a glitch on shoddy - Curse is not supposed to go through Sub. (at least according to the Substitute smogon page)

Porygon-z: UU...so far. Cressy in the tier really limited its effectiveness. We'll see how much of a force it is when it loses one of its best counters. SubNP sets are pretty rediculous though. If you can force a switch (not hard) and get a sub up, something is going to get hit hard. Bulky NP sets with Recover spell doom for stall, and the less-appreciated Agility set basically rapes offense.

Being myself, when I used pory-z I favored running a bulky sweeper set that used Agility/NP/Recover/Tri-Attack with CBTomb support. It worked better than I had anticipated.

Froslass: BL Free spikes, anyone? And dang it, if you have Lass as your lead of course you're not getting 3 layers up immediately! People that want to get all their layers up keep Lass out of the lead spot (c.i.p. Hyu) and then rape with Moltres and Swellow and P-z. Then the part about spin blocking for itself and beating many of the common Rapid Spinners on it's own. (again, Hyu o.o) So yes. BL easy.

Raikou: UU...for now. Again, Cresselia does almost everything it does better. (and beats Venusaur!) Whenever I think, "I want Raikou on this team" this round, I end up sticking Cressy there instead. The speed and power of Raikou is not to be underestimated, but the rediculous amount of extra bulk outweighs that by miles. I believe it needs another isolated test without Cressy in the metagame.

(Moltres: UU) (Damp Rock: After much thought, UU)

 

[GMLW]

@ jamashawalker

The Sub Plot set is stopped by Chansey because it can break your subs with Seismic Toss. Registeel can break them with Iron Head.

After Chansey sees sub or Nasty Plot, it knows it can switch in without fear of Trick. And its easy to tell whether or not it will use Trick, if you have a sweeper out, it won't use Trick. Ever. Unless they want to give you an easier time sweeping. You don't even have to switch in Chansey, it, like all choice pokemon, are set-up bait for resistors. This is even worse for Porygon-z, as Spiritomb and Mismagius are immune to two of its three moves. Speaking of Spiritomb, it also can wall Porygon-z into oblivion.

Moltres is fast. Raikou is fast. Mismagius is fast. Even Uxie is faster than Porygon-z, and Uxie is a support pokemon, which are known for being slow.

 

[jamashawalker]

@ jamashawalker

The Sub Plot set is stopped by Chansey because it can break your subs with Seismic Toss. Registeel can break them with Iron Head.

After Chansey sees sub or Nasty Plot, it knows it can switch in without fear of Trick. And its easy to tell whether or not it will use Trick, if you have a sweeper out, it won't use Trick. Ever. Unless they want to give you an easier time sweeping. You don't even have to switch in Chansey, it, like all choice pokemon, are set-up bait for resistors. This is even worse for Porygon-z, as Spiritomb and Mismagius are immune to two of its three moves. Speaking of Spiritomb, it also can wall Porygon-z into oblivion.

Moltres is fast. Raikou is fast. Mismagius is fast. Even Uxie is faster than Porygon-z, and Uxie is a support pokemon, which are known for being slow.

The sub plot set has recover..so you sub and recover over and over again...and it becomes a prediction games of whether chansey wants to status or attack again...but most of the time PZ comes out on top because of Recover...same scenario with registeel, however registeel has more of a chance resisting tri attack

Against spiritomb and mismagius...most teams pair PZ with something to counter those two so that PZ wont be set up bait...spiritomb as well can be beat by bulky PZ without sub

Moltres=fast and bulky;suspect
Raikou= fast and bulky;suspect
Mismagius=fast but not really bulky at all... a special defensive side if it runs calm mind yes, but not too difficult to handle. Of course the bulky set, but now she isnt a sweeper anymore lol
Uxie= support type...how many uxie do you know utilizes its speed stat (personally i EV Uxie to just out run base 80s, but i dont take into consideration of trying to outrun 90s because then i lose out on alot of bulk limiting uxie's switch ins)

 

[GMLW]

Okay, fine. I'll now list non-suspects who have higher base speed than Porygon-z.

Swellow
Alakazam
Dugtrio
Sceptile
Ambipom
Mismagius
Scyther
Arcanine
Drapion
Houndoom
Leafeon
Uxie
Rotom

That is by no means a small list. Also, Moltres is not a suspect, but I didn't list it as it has the same base speed as Porygon-z.

However, I didn't list those with super effective priority, Swift Swimmers, Chlorophyll abusers, or common scarfers. While these won't always outspeed, they are usually in a position where they will go first.

 

[d2m]

Not to sound all up-high and mighty here, but I believe that the people that are qualifying for voting should not be able to argue about how "I have no problems with this so it's UU." Obviously you aren't the one having problems with the suspects; the people you're facing are having the problems! Instead you should focus on whether, in your experience, the suspect is broken. I believe this is why SEXP is required in OU voting, and I believe it is applicable here. If you haven't spent time playing with the suspects, you shouldn't vote. If you're not spending time playing with the suspects, then you're probably spending time thinking of counters/checks. So of course you're not going to have (many) problems! So if you haven't, for this last week, play with the suspects. Most of the time it means pretty easy wins anyways. (Cressy *cough*)

Everyone else that's not qualifying - you're probably not playing with Cresselia enough. Because using it alone is almost enough to qualify yourself...

I usually use a no-suspect or 1 suspect team at the start of the test then toss the others in once they've kind of evened out. I find it helps a lot in developing perspective: If you're getting your ass handed to you with that first team by a single suspect, there might be something wrong. Once the tier evens out, you can use the sets that destroyed you and see if the prep work that the tier has started doing is actually working.

That said, I'm not gonna qualify this time because I just don't care enough to sit and play for a few hours to get my rating up, I usually just play when I'm bored and need something to do for half an hour.

 

[zorbees]

Not to sound all up-high and mighty here, but I believe that the people that are qualifying for voting should not be able to argue about how "I have no problems with this so it's UU." Obviously you aren't the one having problems with the suspects; the people you're facing are having the problems! Instead you should focus on whether, in your experience, the suspect is broken. I believe this is why SEXP is required in OU voting, and I believe it is applicable here. If you haven't spent time playing with the suspects, you shouldn't vote. If you're not spending time playing with the suspects, then you're probably spending time thinking of counters/checks. So of course you're not going to have (many) problems! So if you haven't, for this last week, play with the suspects. Most of the time it means pretty easy wins anyways. (Cressy *cough*)

Can't the first bolded statement be part of your statement focusing on whether the suspect is broken or not? "I have no problems with Sceptile so it is UU" makes sense, so why can it not make sense with Cresselia in there, assuming you back up your argument?

 

[Smurf.]

Porygon-z: Scarf set far too powerful. Makes stuff like swellow and Moltres look like shit. BL

Cresselia: Walls too much of the metagame, and is almost impossible to take down once it gets a couple of CMs. BL

Froslass: Sets up spikes too easily, main culprit for the dominance of moltres and the like. BL (sorry Stallion)

Moltres: Without froslass, and its weakness to SR.. UU

Raikou: Can be walled by any special wall basically. UU

 

[jamashawalker]

Okay, fine. I'll now list non-suspects who have higher base speed than Porygon-z.

Swellow
Alakazam
Dugtrio
Sceptile
Ambipom
Mismagius
Scyther
Arcanine
Drapion
Houndoom
Leafeon
Uxie
Rotom

That is by no means a small list. Also, Moltres is not a suspect, but I didn't list it as it has the same base speed as Porygon-z.

However, I didn't list those with super effective priority, Swift Swimmers, Chlorophyll abusers, or common scarfers. While these won't always outspeed, they are usually in a position where they will go first.

lol that just proved my point about UU having either slow bulky attackers or frail sweepers...and of all that list that threatens PZ(unless PZ is weakened) are...

Swellow
Alakazam
Dugtrio
Sceptile(Choice specs)
Aimbipom
Scyther(choice banded brick break)
Houndoom

Most Arcanine run Adamant, yet Extreme Speed will do alot of damage to PZ...And alot of ppl have been talking about moltres being suspect for alot of reasons....

 

[HR.]

though I'll most likely abstain from everyone except Froslass and Moltres, just because I haven't used any of the others ones enough, here is my opinion,

Cresselia: As Franky mentioned, although I've grown to adapt to Cresselia, she is still too tough to take out. Though the Sub/CM/Two attacks is extremely annoying, she can wall pretty much any physical or special (depending on how you EV it) attacker and start spamming toxic/thunder wave with ease. What makes her even more difficult to take down is the fact that she has Levitate, making her immune to Spikes, which is a huge part of the metagame. That's why I feel she is BL.

Froslass: Without a doubt, BL. The ease at which she can get down 2-3 layers of spikes is just ridiculous. What makes her the best spiker is that she can't be spun on. Suicidelass means that something is going to die thanks to Destiny Bond, and Bulkylass means that she is sticking around for a long time, making her a reliable spin blocker as well as spike stacker. None of the spinners can really threaten her and the most used spinner, Donphan, is threatened by Ice Beam. Froslass even makes other pokemon more broken, especially Moltres, who can OHKO/2HKO anything with Spikes support. Simply put, she needs to go.

Porygon-Z: I think the set that makes it BL is the Choice Scarf set. As long as you aren't retarded and just spam Tri-Attack for everything, the Scarf set can be deadly. It's just too damn powerful. The Nasty Plot set is good, but more manageable than the scarf set because although it is quite fast for UU, there are a lot of of things that can outspeed/revenge it. Overall though, I'd say it is BL.

Raikou: I'm still not 100% sure on this one, but as of now, I would probably vote Raikou BL. The difference between Raikou and Cressy is its speed and potential of it being an immediate threat. Though it isn't used very much, I think a very dangerous Raikou set is the LO CM set, simply because of the threat it poses after just one Calm Mind. However, for any set, Raikou can easily wear down its counters to the point to where they can't counter it anymore, and then its pretty much good game. It's also bulky enough to take quite a few hits. For these reasons, I think Raikou is BL.

Moltres: I think Moltres with the right support is BL. You cant just throw Moltres on a team and expect it to do well. Froslass is a big reason why Moltres is such a huge threat, but even without it, Moltres can do a shit ton of damage to the whole metagame. Yes, the stealth rock weakness is unsettling, but with rapid spin support, Moltres is extremely hard to take down thanks to her bulk, and can KO everything in the process.

Damp Rock: I honestly, don't know as of now. I previously thought it was UU, but as of late, I've seen how destructive it can be. For now, I'm going to hold off on deciding.

 

[shrang]

Since people are saying the Scarf set is incredibly powerful, I wonder how many people have used Specs?? Adaptability'd Tri-Attack hurts everything, apart from ghosts, Chansey and Registeel (The latter two risk getting Tricked). Ghosts are kept at bay with Dark Pulse, and another coverage attack like Hidden Power Fighting rounds him off. This is just a thought, because I'm playing the OU Suspect metagame right now and Specs Latias spamming Draco Meteor is dominating, and I'm wondering if Porygon-Z is doing the same thing.

 

[Smurf.]

Since people are saying the Scarf set is incredibly powerful, I wonder how many people have used Specs?? Adaptability'd Tri-Attack hurts everything, apart from ghosts, Chansey and Registeel (The latter two risk getting Tricked). Ghosts are kept at bay with Dark Pulse, and another coverage attack like Hidden Power Fighting rounds him off. This is just a thought, because I'm playing the OU Suspect metagame right now and Specs Latias spamming Draco Meteor is dominating, and I'm wondering if Porygon-Z is doing the same thing.

Specs lacks the speed required for PZ to wreck havoc, as it only has a 90 base speed. No joke, I once was leading 4-0, with all pokes in reasonable condition, to be swept by a scarfZ spamming adaptibility tri attack, not to mention the hax that parad my rhyperior... -_-

 

[Banedon]

I don't get why everyone thinks Froslass is so overpowered ...

Yeah she can set up spikes quite fast, and having Taunt + Destiny Bond + Trick + Pain Split makes her pretty versatile. But I don't find her overwhelming at all. So she can beat Donphan because of Ice Beam, but that just means you can't switch Donphan into Froslass. You can't switch Froslass into Donphan either (Max attack Adamant Assurance vs. a Froslass who switches into SR is murder). You aren't forced to Rapid Spin the moment you get in; you can predict a switch to Froslass after all. And then there are other spinners, all perfectly capable: Hitmontop, Blastoise, Claydol, etc. Anyone remember the match between ToF and xianglongfa? Foresight punches through Froslass's ability to spin block, too. You can run double Ghost, but that limits your team by taking up two slots.

And then there's Destiny Bond, which is beaten by switching, setting up (requires mind games), priority, PP stalling (it only has 8 PP) and Roar / Whirlwind (get SR up). Taunt, which is a great move but not all that effective since you need to sink points into speed, which in turn weakens Froslass's survivability. Trick is great, but then Froslass would be no different from other Trick-scarfers. Pain Split is a great move and can make it hard to stay in against Froslass. Nonetheless it can still be beaten (Sub, recovery of your own, priority ...).

Moltres is deadly if Spikes are up, but then against this argument I've always wondered: what is the defender doing while Froslass is setting up Spikes? He could have a Sub up, spin (at least attempt to), put up screens, put up Rain, put up SR, set up, switch in someone with Pursuit and kill Froslass, and so on and so forth. It's not like counters to Froslass don't exist; in fact the last time I tried to use Froslass in lead position saw me run into all sorts of counters like Pursuit on Ambipom that quickly killed Froslass - and I had BulkyLass to boot.

If I could vote this round I'd probably abstain on everyone since I find I don't have a strong opinion one way or another. Unfortunately though, I won't be making the cut (playing Pokemon is sooooooooo stressful for me).

 

[HR.]

Since people are saying the Scarf set is incredibly powerful, I wonder how many people have used Specs?? Adaptability'd Tri-Attack hurts everything, apart from ghosts, Chansey and Registeel (The latter two risk getting Tricked). Ghosts are kept at bay with Dark Pulse, and another coverage attack like Hidden Power Fighting rounds him off. This is just a thought, because I'm playing the OU Suspect metagame right now and Specs Latias spamming Draco Meteor is dominating, and I'm wondering if Porygon-Z is doing the same thing.

The main reason why Specs Latias is so devastating is because of its excellent speed. Porygon-z, however, can't really say that. Yes, its speed stat is above average, but too many things can outspeed it. With the scarf and a download boost however, porygon-z is far more destructive, outspeeding pretty much everything and nailing them hard.

 

[zorbees]

Agreeing with Banedon, Froslass is incredibly easy to play around. Just wanted to add that you don't even have to use Assurance with Donphan, Earthquake will hurt a lot too.