• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

np: UU - Can't Touch This

Status
Not open for further replies.
@ zorbees

While Donphan can beat Suicide Froslass, it loses reliably against Prolass.


Froslass (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 248 HP/228 Def/32 Spd
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Ice Beam
- Pain Split
---

Is 4-5HKOed by Spiritomb depending on Damage rolls. It beats Donphan reliably, switching in on Earthquake and being able to simply Pain Split enough HP to survive another Earthquake and putting Donphan in KO range. It's damn bulky....survives a Honchkrow Night Slash!

As it says in the quote, it survives Earthquake, Pain Splits until Donphan is in KO range, and Ice Beams it. I personally think this set is much better than the Suicide Lead, because it usually can't set up all three layers and even if it does, it can't spinblock or set up more if they are spun away somehow.
 
Froslass biggest enemy is Hitmontop. Hitmontop has a good choice of moves to deal with Froslass(Stone Edge, Bullet Punch, Sucker Punch) and not only KO Froslass, but also spins any spikes/rocks away with Foresight+Rapid Spin provided Froslass doesn't Taunt Hitmontop ... not to say Close Combat is a OHKO on bulky Froslass after Foresight.

Speaking of Hitmontop... it's funny when we think Hitmontop was easily the worst Hitmon in the ADV era, then it gets quite the jump when D/P came, being the best Hitmon by far...
 
@ zorbees

While Donphan can beat Suicide Froslass, it loses reliably against Prolass.




As it says in the quote, it survives Earthquake, Pain Splits until Donphan is in KO range, and Ice Beams it. I personally think this set is much better than the Suicide Lead, because it usually can't set up all three layers and even if it does, it can't spinblock or set up more if they are spun away somehow.

Donphan loses 1on1, but that's what a team is for. I wouldn't keep Donphan in on Froslass seeing Leftovers and great Physical bulk. I would go to something like Raikou, Mismagius, Porygon-Z, etc. to hit it with a powerful, possibly Super Effective, Special attack. Have fun Pain Splitting my Raikou and then switching out while you accomplished nothing. And btw, WTF is with the name ProLass?
 
Donphan loses 1on1, but that's what a team is for. I wouldn't keep Donphan in on Froslass seeing Leftovers and great Physical bulk. I would go to something like Raikou, Mismagius, Porygon-Z, etc. to hit it with a powerful, possibly Super Effective, Special attack. Have fun Pain Splitting my Raikou and then switching out while you accomplished nothing. And btw, WTF is with the name ProLass?

The fact pokémon x,y,z check Froslass is completely irrelevant in this case, as what is being discussed is specifically it's ability to beat most if not all spinners; which you just confirmed with this post.
 
The fact pokémon x,y,z check Froslass is completely irrelevant in this case, as what is being discussed is specifically it's ability to beat most if not all spinners; which you just confirmed with this post.

As of late i have been fooling around with a stall team i whipped together in about 15 mins, and in the 20 or so battles i've used it in, froslass only once failed to get fewer than 2 layers of spikes up., Despite the fact my team features no dedicated spin blocker, very rarely do the spikes/SR get spun off successfully.

A list of spinners who failed to make any impact whatsoever:
Donphan
Hitmontop
Blastoise

look familiar? im pretty sure if you have a spinner on your team it's one of these

Keep in mind that I'm hardly a great stall user, and in the hands of someone more proficient, would be absolutely deadly.
 
I'm gonna have to say that lass is BL. The ease with which it gets at least 2 layers of spikes up is ridiculous. It can also beat most Spinners 1 on 1 and can serve as a half decent spin blocker. Pure BL
 
Rolfkip said:
Not to sound all up-high and mighty here, but I believe that the people that are qualifying for voting should not be able to argue about how "I have no problems with this so it's UU." Obviously you aren't the one having problems with the suspects; the people you're facing are having the problems! Instead you should focus on whether, in your experience, the suspect is broken. I believe this is why SEXP is required in OU voting, and I believe it is applicable here. If you haven't spent time playing with the suspects, you shouldn't vote. If you're not spending time playing with the suspects, then you're probably spending time thinking of counters/checks. So of course you're not going to have (many) problems! So if you haven't, for this last week, play with the suspects. Most of the time it means pretty easy wins anyways. (Cressy *cough*)

SEXP accounts for both using and facing the suspect, and it's in use in UU as well (though a bit less directly, I guess).

Man, it really is getting down to the wire, isn't it? There are so many posts going on right now that if I tried to reply to them it would take way too long... I don't think I really have anything to reply to, though.

I think I'm going to be attempting to vote everybody UU except for maybe Froslass and Cresselia (assuming it gets nominated, though it would be the ultimate surprise if it didn't get nominated XD). I think I'm going to have to give those two a lot of thought before making a final decision.
 
As of late i have been fooling around with a stall team i whipped together in about 15 mins, and in the 20 or so battles i've used it in, froslass only once failed to get fewer than 2 layers of spikes up., Despite the fact my team features no dedicated spin blocker, very rarely do the spikes/SR get spun off successfully.

A list of spinners who failed to make any impact whatsoever:
Donphan
Hitmontop
Blastoise

look familiar? im pretty sure if you have a spinner on your team it's one of these

Keep in mind that I'm hardly a great stall user, and in the hands of someone more proficient, would be absolutely deadly.

Froslass loses to all of those when played correctly (which is maybe the problem) and i have experience using all of them.

Min Sp.Att Blastoise Surf Vs Froslass : 35% - 41.4% 2hko with SR up. Can use Foresight too.

Hitmontop wins with Foresight. Can also use Stone Edge.

Also who gives a damn if Lass can survive a Max Att Donphan EQ ? I keep seeing people say that and its annoying. :/ Well jee maybe you should'nt be using EQ! Use Assurance/Stone Edge which has a 20% of OHKOing even bulky Froslass with SR up so lass isnt coming in on Donphan easily any time soon, that and Froslass cant even OHKO Donphan with Min S.Att Ice Beam so yeah.

Froslass is good ill admit, it does its job very well but its really not impossible to work around it and it doesn't beat every spinner reliably 1 vs 1 like many people claim, it struggles with many of them truth be told.
 
Can't the first bolded statement be part of your statement focusing on whether the suspect is broken or not? "I have no problems with Sceptile so it is UU" makes sense, so why can it not make sense with Cresselia in there, assuming you back up your argument?
No, it can't.

- It doesn't matter how much a suspect decimates you, that doesn't make it BL. That is your inability to adapt to the metagame. Seldom will there be a time where a suspect just "cannot be adapted to". Even Cressy has been taken care of to some extent this metagame.

- In this way voting gets rid of some of the people that refuse to adapt to the metagame by it's somewhat-high standards for submitting paragraphs. The paragraphs themselves lower the number even further to people who actually care about what they are voting for. Just look at how many paras were submitted on Lass and you'll see what I mean!

- I feel sometimes though people that qualify to vote only vote on the premise of "my team has problems with Froslass, so therefore it is BL." "Froslass gets up spikes so easy against me, so it is BL." and to a lesser extent "I can't win a lead battle vs Froslass for my life besides running a specialized lead to do just that, so it is BL." Even people who qualify to vote sometimes say that "because Froslass never gets Spikes up on me, he's obviously not BL!"

- Instead, you should base it on your own experience with your own Froslass on a team of your own. The best test would be to center a team around that suspect. Hyu for instance created a successful team centered around Froslass laying down the Spikes then Moltres sweeping the opposition. Through that he has found Froslass to be BL. It is similarly through my own experience with spike stacking teams that I have decided she needs to go.

- Finally, people shouldn't just piggyback on others because they are lazy. No offense to anyone, but I believe this happened extensively last vote with LN posting his opinions on Raikou and Froslass in large detail before paragraphs were submitted. In large part of this, I also believe that is why Froslass shifted to UU and Raikou's balanced tipped the same direction. People didn't decide for themselves, they let LN do their thinking for them and then it became easy to echo his ideas because they made sense. Sure they make sense, but dang it, vote on your own please. His experiences are not yours.
 
Froslass loses to all of those when played correctly (which is maybe the problem) and i have experience using all of them.

Min Sp.Att Blastoise Surf Vs Froslass : 35% - 41.4% 2hko with SR up. Can use Foresight too.

Excellent, so a Rapid Spinner will be pushed to about 40% before being able to Rapid Spin due to Pain Split. That's when I send my Moltres / Raikou / Swellow / etc in and threaten to OHKO your Blastoise. What's even better is that Blastoise is now switching in with 15%. Good luck.
- It doesn't matter how much a suspect decimates you, that doesn't make it BL. That is your inability to adapt to the metagame. Seldom will there be a time where a suspect just "cannot be adapted to". Even Cressy has been taken care of to some extent this metagame.

- In this way voting gets rid of some of the people that refuse to adapt to the metagame by it's somewhat-high standards for submitting paragraphs. The paragraphs themselves lower the number even further to people who actually care about what they are voting for. Just look at how many paras were submitted on Lass and you'll see what I mean!

I would like to completely agree, but your points don't address the most common case: People who don't adapt while still qualifying, and being good writers. This happens a lot more than people would care to admit.
Rolfkip said:
- Instead, you should base it on your own experience with your own Froslass on a team of your own. The best test would be to center a team around that suspect. Hyu for instance created a successful team centered around Froslass laying down the Spikes then Moltres sweeping the opposition. Through that he has found Froslass to be BL. It is similarly through my own experience with spike stacking teams that I have decided she needs to go.

Yes, but the most important thing was that I used both my experience with Froslass and against Froslass in judging it's tiering.

Rolfkip said:
- Finally, people shouldn't just piggyback on others because they are lazy. No offense to anyone, but I believe this happened extensively last vote with LN posting his opinions on Raikou and Froslass in large detail before paragraphs were submitted. In large part of this, I also believe that is why Froslass shifted to UU and Raikou's balanced tipped the same direction. People didn't decide for themselves, they let LN do their thinking for them and then it became easy to echo his ideas because they made sense. Sure they make sense, but dang it, vote on your own please. His experiences are not yours.

This is definitely a problem, but it wasn't really LN's fault because the deadline was lengthened after he posted.

In general, though, this is a bit of a problem. This happened with Cresselia as well, lots of well-known users/mods thought/think Cresselia is broken so then people began to bandwagon.

I agree with most of your points otherwise.
 
Excellent, so a Rapid Spinner will be pushed to about 40% before being able to Rapid Spin due to Pain Split. That's when I send my Moltres / Raikou / Swellow / etc in and threaten to OHKO your Blastoise. What's even better is that Blastoise is now switching in with 15%. Good luck.

Lass cant switch in, if you dont go to Lass i get a Spin off. Which shows Froslass actually takes alot of skill to not get nailed by common Spinners.

Heck i used Cloyster as a spinner, it got me to #1 on the leaderboard with just Surf as the lone attack and Surf nails Froslass badly, the pivot spin blocking you are talking about is really easy to predict.


Taunt. Stone Edge is a viable option but it doesn't even OHKO Froslass.

How can you Taunt ? I i use Foresight on the switch i get a free Rapid Spin.

Right. And Raikou shouldn't use Thunderbolt, Salamence shouldn't use Draco Meteor, Swellow shouldn't use Facade, and Honchkrow shouldn't use Brave Bird.

It's Donphan's most powerful attack. If Donphan was not using Earthquake it wouldn't be so hard to switch into.

No, dont take me out of context that is not what im saying.

What i was saying is (even though it was worded badly) "Why would you EQ first turn/when you know they have a Froslass?". I mean thats why your spinner comes in to get rid of Spikes right ? So it would be assumed you had used lass already to get Spikes down otherwise i wouldnt be sending in my spinner. =P

EDIT :

Back to pivot spin blocking being easy to predict and lass losing to spinners played correctly, here is an example from your own warstory

dpiconani232.gif
(81%) vs
dpiconani009.gif
(87%)


Shit, Blastoise is one of the tougher Spinners to remove AND it's an obstacle for Swellow.

This next move is hugely important since it decides whether my Spikes and Stealth Rocks stay up. I think it's a good bet to assume Blastoise is going to use Surf first, since he knows I have a Spin Blocker. So I'll go to Sceptile to laugh at the Surf, scare off Blastoise, and hopeully get into a SubSeed cycle which can be deadly with entry hazards.

Heysup switched in Sceptile (lvl 100 Sceptile ?).
Pointed stones dug into Sceptile.
Sceptile lost 12% of its health.
Blastoise used Rapid Spin.
Blastoise blew away the spikes!
Blastoise blew away the pointed stones!
Sceptile lost 6% of its health.
Sceptile's leftovers restored its health a little!
Sceptile restored 6% of its health.
Blastoise's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blastoise restored 6% of its health.
---


dpiconani254.gif
(88%) vs
dpiconani009.gif
(93%)


Damn it. He made an excellent prediction and basically removed everything I had worked for in these opening turns. This looks really bad for me. At least I can set up a Substitute and fire off a Leaf Storm at whatever comes in, I'm assuming it is Uxie since it has U-turn. Best to hit it hard while I can.
The highlighted red part is what my focal point is in regards to that. You have to predict almost inch perfectly not to lose you entry hazards or lose your Froslass, yes in the same vein he had to predict too. But if something takes skill to use then it doesnt fit the support characteristics because it says "with ease". If something actually takes thought to use then that isnt with ease. Thats my point in a little nutshell. I mean this is all from experience right ? That has what using/being against Froslass has been like for me, i mean you may have had different experiences but yeah. =P

edit 2: Wait it was paralyzed ? I didnt see that. x.x
 
I was glancing on the warstory, out of curiousity, and Froslass happens to be paralyzed, so you should account that.
 
No, it can't.

- It doesn't matter how much a suspect decimates you, that doesn't make it BL. That is your inability to adapt to the metagame. Seldom will there be a time where a suspect just "cannot be adapted to". Even Cressy has been taken care of to some extent this metagame.

This is completely irrelevant to my point. My point was for threats that don't bother you too much.

- In this way voting gets rid of some of the people that refuse to adapt to the metagame by it's somewhat-high standards for submitting paragraphs. The paragraphs themselves lower the number even further to people who actually care about what they are voting for. Just look at how many paras were submitted on Lass and you'll see what I mean!

People that don't adapt to the metagame shouldn't vote because they shouldn't know what they are talking about in most cases.

- I feel sometimes though people that qualify to vote only vote on the premise of "my team has problems with Froslass, so therefore it is BL." "Froslass gets up spikes so easy against me, so it is BL." and to a lesser extent "I can't win a lead battle vs Froslass for my life besides running a specialized lead to do just that, so it is BL." Even people who qualify to vote sometimes say that "because Froslass never gets Spikes up on me, he's obviously not BL!"

Only the last sentence is relevant to my point. The last one is what I said, a valid point assuming you can back it up with evidence and logic.

- Instead, you should base it on your own experience with your own Froslass on a team of your own. The best test would be to center a team around that suspect. Hyu for instance created a successful team centered around Froslass laying down the Spikes then Moltres sweeping the opposition. Through that he has found Froslass to be BL. It is similarly through my own experience with spike stacking teams that I have decided she needs to go.

Not everyone performs well with all types of teams and all types of Pokemon. For example, I, for the life of me, cannot get Froslass to work, the Lead set or the Bulky set. I couldn't get Spikes Roserade to work when it was in the tier. Hell, I can barely get CM Cress to work. The point is, experience against the suspect should be just as valid as experience with the suspect.

- Finally, people shouldn't just piggyback on others because they are lazy. No offense to anyone, but I believe this happened extensively last vote with LN posting his opinions on Raikou and Froslass in large detail before paragraphs were submitted. In large part of this, I also believe that is why Froslass shifted to UU and Raikou's balanced tipped the same direction. People didn't decide for themselves, they let LN do their thinking for them and then it became easy to echo his ideas because they made sense. Sure they make sense, but dang it, vote on your own please. His experiences are not yours.

I don't get what this point is trying to do other than state the obvious. It definitely better not be directed at me, considering I'm not even convinced Cresselia is BL.

All I was trying to say was that if a suspect doesn't bother you too much, and you don't overprepare for it, and you can back this up, it probably isn't broken.
 
lol what's with all the sudden changes in what people are talking about. One moments it's RD that's broken and now it's Lass. I agree that Lass is broken because of the ease at which it can get 2 layers of spikes up and spin block them later. But if you really hate Lass leads why not just use a fast taunt lead? or maybe an anit-lead that laughs at Froslass's face.
 
I've never had a problem with Froslass...always 1 set of spikes tops and/or I get to set up a sweeper that destroys the other team. The slow set is terribad when you carry things like Taunt/Plot missy that acts as a 100% counter to it.

Zam leads easily destroy aforementioned Froslass with Shadow Ball or simply by taunting it and beating it with psychic before it dies from the piss weak Ice Beam.

In fact, hell, if you're running the slow set, Omastar is better, it can take more hits from more things and has a much higher SpA to work with.
 
The change was because Jabba said he'd ban anyone discussing rain in this thread. Which is why you all should go to the Rain thread! It's like three threads down! I'm waiting for a reply to my post too so >_>

Regarding Lass, Alakazam beats it, but kazam is a pretty crappy lead due to it being instalose against Uxie and Ambipom (unless you have focus sash, because psychic cannot ohko it and return ohkos back, so you either have to rely in the risky focus blast or switch and risk eating a pursuit...and focus sash alakazam is meh due to the prevalence of u-turn). Speaking of Ambipom, it's probably the only reliable way to beat Froslass, but it needs both Taunt and Pursuit to beat bulky lass (otherwise you get set up on/damaged) which leaves it with Fake Out/Taunt/Return/Pursuit, which is a pretty suboptimal set for anything else (due it forgoing the brilliant low kick and u-turn).

Omastar is definitely not better. Omastar cannot spinblock, doesn't have the speed to taunt slower leads and prevent their setup, doesn't get access to recovery...
 
Sneasel has actually been doing very well for me as an anti-lead, particularly in countering Froslass. Outspeeds Froslass and can Taunt it, and gets STAB Pursuit to make sure it won't be setting up later. It also resists both Shadow Ball and Ice Beam, meaning it doesn't have to worry about taking a strong hit, unlike Ambipom.
 
Guys, for a similar reason to the rain dance topic, can we use the Froslass topic to speak about Froslass?

I've responded to d2m there.

EDIT:

Also, @ Dark_123

That is a completely inaccurate depiction of what Froslass is like because it had already done its job that game. In that situation, Froslass was at around 76% while being Paralyzed. This meant I couldn't switch into a Surf or two, and Pain Split him to the point of him not having enough HP to stay in and Spin.
 
Alakazam is suxor
(Excuse my paraphrasing)

The most important part of an Alakazam lead is Counter. Counter + Inner Focus OHKO's Ambipom on the Fake Out, and U-turn does massive damage, which will make Counter OHKO anything on the switch-in not named Spiritomb, Rotom, Mismagius, Froslass, or Chansey. It's a really great set, actually, if you can swing it right. The problem is that Spiritomb is a hard counter to it, and if the opponent's got one, it will show up, lol at Counter, and either pursuit or let you switch out with a whole 1 hp.

I've cut out the remainder of this post for dumping into the Froslass topic, but I'll keep one little bit. No Froslass means more Ambipom and Trick Scarfing Uxies. Please, don't make everyone lead with a Trick Scarfer or Fake Out. That is all.
 
Yeah, you mention Spiritomb, which is an increasingly popular lead. Counterkazam also has problems with laddering because once your opponent knows the set, they'll just go to something like Cresselia and kill you with minimal loss. I can see that it has uses, but one of the things I look for in a lead is not only the ability to give me an advantage, but also the ability to never put me at a significant disadvantage in a crap matchup. And if you're using kazam, a crap matchup basically means you start 5-6.
 
(Excuse my paraphrasing)

The most important part of an Alakazam lead is Counter. Counter + Inner Focus OHKO's Ambipom on the Fake Out, and U-turn does massive damage, which will make Counter OHKO anything on the switch-in not named Spiritomb, Rotom, Mismagius, Froslass, or Chansey. It's a really great set, actually, if you can swing it right. The problem is that Spiritomb is a hard counter to it, and if the opponent's got one, it will show up, lol at Counter, and either pursuit or let you switch out with a whole 1 hp.

I've cut out the remainder of this post for dumping into the Froslass topic, but I'll keep one little bit. No Froslass means more Ambipom and Trick Scarfing Uxies. Please, don't make everyone lead with a Trick Scarfer or Fake Out. That is all.

Wait Chansey isn't K.O'd if it switches in?
 
Even a max hp 'Zam will take 313 damage and deal out 626 in return. So I suppose you could follow up with a psychic for the KO (Or Focus Blast if you're actually using good EV's on it).
 
We can't talk about rain in this thread, we can't talk about Lass, what can we talk about?

Me being a whiny little bitch aside, what do guys think is the best Hidden Power type for Raikou? At first I thought Ice, because of BoltBeam coverage, but then I realized I couldn't do anything to Lanturn, Quagsire, or Gastrodon (which no one uses because Quagsire has Recover now, but still). So I switched to Grass. Then I realized I couldn't do anything to any Grass types (and to a lesser extent, Altaria since Thunderbolt still hurts). So what do you guys think is the better Hidden Power type for Raikou?
 
We can't talk about rain in this thread, we can't talk about Lass, what can we talk about?

Me being a whiny little bitch aside, what do guys think is the best Hidden Power type for Raikou? At first I thought Ice, because of BoltBeam coverage, but then I realized I couldn't do anything to Lanturn, Quagsire, or Gastrodon (which no one uses because Quagsire has Recover now, but still). So I switched to Grass. Then I realized I couldn't do anything to any Grass types (and to a lesser extent, Altaria since Thunderbolt still hurts). So what do you guys think is the better Hidden Power type for Raikou?

It really depends on your team. No matter which HP you use, you'll get walled by something. If you use HP Ice, then you'll want to take care of the bulky waters and Rhyperior using Venusaur or something. If you use grass, then use Moltres or Blaziken to get rid of grass types.
 
It really depends on your team. No matter which HP you use, you'll get walled by something. If you use HP Ice, then you'll want to take care of the bulky waters and Rhyperior using Venusaur or something. If you use grass, then use Moltres or Blaziken to get rid of grass types.

Raikou isnt exactly walled by bulky waters.

I'd say probably use HP Water to hit Steelix. Still walled by grass though.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top