See the Froslass thread for examples of "essays". Whistle and Heysup posted some good ones.
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np: UU - Can't Touch This
- Thread starter reachzero
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where? I can't seem to find them
I've been wondering how most people here go about handling Alakazam with balanced / stall teams. I realize hard counters exist, namely Spiritomb and Drapion, but I find everything else risks a 2HKO from either Psychic or a super effective attack.
Any thoughts you guys could share with me?
Any thoughts you guys could share with me?
@ Golden Sun, page 3 of the thread has a medium length essay from Whistle, a long essay from Heysup, and a short essay (covering Whorelass in hail) from me.
Zam is easy to handle if you know what your doing. It's to frail to sweep. At worst you sacc something and then revenge it with priority
Sub CM and CM/Moonlight both work fairly well, depending on the type of support you have for either. Sub CM blocks status, but lacks the staying power and CM/Moonlight is vulnerable to Toxic, which means you might want to have a status healer on hand, preferably Chansey.
Either way, Cress is going to run through any offensive team pretty easily.
Priority is the only thing that works for me to be honest. I have to try to beat my opponent on the Sub prediction game, switch to Registeel while it uses Psychic, either sac him/ pray for a miss and get one Iron Head in or switch to yet another poké on the predicted Focus Blast, and work from there (yes, Alakazam is a bitch to take down, especially because it can just switch out at sight of any priority attack).
If it's a Sub 3 attacks version, Milotic handles it well, as it takes around 4x% from Alakazam's Psychic with no SpDef investment and can Recover all the damage, consuming LO Recoil. Having a scarf pursuiter is probably the best answer, as if you predict a Psychic and switch to something like Absol or just come bring your pursuiter in after Alakazam takes something down, it's rightfully dead.
Scarf Absol works best, from personal experience. You can feign SP and hit sub + 3 attack alakazam if they try to get smart, or pursuit if they run.
For a stall team, i find Trick Band Tomb to be the most effective hard counter.
Pretty much the only reason why I haven't had any trouble with any variant of Alakazam is CB Spiritomb. I've used Spiritomb since the very beginning of the test when I was trying to find a good spin blocker/cressy counter/ghost trapper, and he is my go to guy for pretty much anything with a psychic or ghost type, including Cresselia. Alakazam can do absolutely nothing to it except maybe signal beam, while tomb just pursuits it, easily KOing even if it doesn't switch out. People have been catching on to CB tomb though, lessening its effectiveness, but it is still extremely useful in this metagame.
I'm sure that Pursuit should OHKO your standard offensive Zam anyway, whether they switch or not. I also don't understand why Spiritomb needs to be a Choice Bander in order to comfortably deal with it.
Anyway, one thing that has bugging me as we approach the end of this testing period is the way that we carry out nominations, in that I don’t believe we are quite doing it right. What I mean is, now that we just immediately vote on the suspects once nominations and voters are registered, a nomination is basically equivalent to a justification for said suspect’s BL status. The problem with this is that currently these nominations are there for everyone to see, and that only such anti-suspect arguments are encouraged during this period, which further skews the perception of the suspect amongst the community and encourages bandwagonning 'plagiarism', and to a lesser extent discourages the pro-suspect crowd (as demonstrated in the last period, although this really shouldn’t happen). Additionally, people who have already posted successful nominations then have to go and write another different ’essay’ saying basically the same thing in order to get the right to vote. I mean talk about awkward; how do you go about writing it?
My proposed solution to this is as follows. Make nominations blind and keep them blind, then the suspects are not announced until the moderators have assessed all the entries at the end of the designated week, and all users are PM'd with feedback. Any successful nominations automatically grant that user the right to vote on the given suspect, leaving them only to write essays for the auto-suspects and any other suspects they didn’t nominate, or are given a ’second chance’ to argue for a failed nomination on a suspect that has nonetheless been successfully nominated by others. Any potential voter who does not feel strongly towards any suspects would be able to use this free time to formulate arguments on the auto-suspects, or otherwise if they are sure a Pokemon is going to get nominated, so the difference in workload from person to person will be minimized overall. I believe this approach will produce a fairer and more streamlined process, but I would like to hear the opinions of other suspect testers here on this as well.
This is a valid point. As of now, we post a nomination, and then write a rigorous essay about the same thing.
I like the idea of making nominations blind. Ideally, we post our essays directly in the nominations, and then vote immediately, but then I don't think we'll have a lot of nominations.
So I agree with Lemmiwinks.
There's also another thing bugging me. The thing is, when one suspect gets overshadowed by the other(s). For example, I don't think that this was a fair test for Porygon-Z, since everyone was mooning about Cress in the beginning, and Cress centralized the meta about itself, thereby weakening P-Z (Spiritomb became much more popular, Absol usage rose, etc). Or even Raikou, who I believe is actually MORE BL in this metagame than the previous one.
Also question for Jabba / Reach: For the auto suspects, eg. Raikou, can we just use last time's paragraph and then add how the current meta changed its status? I don't feel like writing out everything again lol :(
Hey everyone! Remember me? I was the guy who always told you all to try things that people overlook (mainly Trick Room)! Well, a few months away from my job hasn't changed anything, so here I go!
MATT'S XANATOS GAMBITS OF THE CURRENT METAGAME (If you didn't know, a Xanatos gambit is a plot that will succed even if your opponents think they are ready. But here, I consider it a thing that your opponents just don't prepair for.)
1: Trick room
"Oh boy, here goes Matt back to ranting about trick room." Well, it certainly isn't as broken as other things, but it is still good in this metagame. Yeah, Electrode gets up the RD and you get up TR at the same time, and his lasts longer. BUT, you will still go faster. So since your opponent has to switch for RD to have much effect (Or U-turn or Explode, but you get the point) wheras your lead should be able to abuse it, you get 5 turns to kill them off, and at the end, they get 3 turns to handle you. Not only do you get more time, but wheras you handle pokemon that usually suck defensively, they have to take out slow, bulky pokemon. And that doesn't even get into defensive trickroom, which I won't discuss here.
Now you might think that simply Taunting with Electrode would get the advantage, and I admit, it would. But would Electrode think to Taunt when facing down a Gardevoir lead? How about Solrock? Maybe not. And remember that Marowak's Thick Club gives Marowak more power for STAB attacks (and other attacks) than Rain does for Water types, which is important, because that means EQ/Arial Ace decimates RD teams (AA only for Ludicolo). So maybe it would work better to try this against them.
2: Shedinja.
Yep, I brought him up. Sue me. I don't particularly care. But sereously, what IS RD suppost to do against Sheddy? Only Kabutops and Gorbyriss have a chance to KO (Kabutops with SE or AA, Gorbyriss with Shadow Ball), so Sheddy can switch into most sweepers freely. Yeah, you need a Rapid spinner (not hard what with Blastoise, Claydol, and Donphan sitting around), but RD teams are only going to want to set up SR or else lose the advantage against other teams.
It might seem a waste to only use Sheddy for RD teams though, so here are the tiers 5 suspects.
MOLTRES: No chance.
FROSLASS: Just about as little a chance as Moltres.
CRESSELIA: Here's where it gets interesting. Shadow Ball is declining fast on Cressy, as many favor Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Signal Beam, or Hidden Power (ground or fighting) over it. If it doesn't have Shadow Ball, it doesn't matter if Cressy has no CMs or 6, it loses.
PORYGON Z: Another interesting one. Porygon Z usually uses one of 2 combos: Bolt Beam, or FightDark. You lose to FightDark and win against Boltbeam, plain and simple. So how do you tell? Switch Sheddy in, then switch to a Dark Type absorber. If they switch, they are either choiced (Which can be handled other ways) or they have Boltbeam. If they Dark Pulse, they obviously are FightDark. If they still Tri-Attack, have fun owning with Sheddy, they must be a n00b.
RAIKOU: When was the last time you saw Shadow ball Raikou? They all run Hidden Power these days.
Now, you STILL might not want to use it because of poor ghost options (Shadow Sneak or Claw, your choice) or poor speed. So you need to BP it with Ambipom, whatever (Ambipom because NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUASITION! er, Baton Pass with it, but really a few others could work to). Point is, if you kill 1 or 2 trouble pokemon, keep SR down, and pass it an Agility, you can just set up SD 3 times and sweep.
Well, I think that's it for now. Goodbye.
MATT'S XANATOS GAMBITS OF THE CURRENT METAGAME (If you didn't know, a Xanatos gambit is a plot that will succed even if your opponents think they are ready. But here, I consider it a thing that your opponents just don't prepair for.)
1: Trick room
"Oh boy, here goes Matt back to ranting about trick room." Well, it certainly isn't as broken as other things, but it is still good in this metagame. Yeah, Electrode gets up the RD and you get up TR at the same time, and his lasts longer. BUT, you will still go faster. So since your opponent has to switch for RD to have much effect (Or U-turn or Explode, but you get the point) wheras your lead should be able to abuse it, you get 5 turns to kill them off, and at the end, they get 3 turns to handle you. Not only do you get more time, but wheras you handle pokemon that usually suck defensively, they have to take out slow, bulky pokemon. And that doesn't even get into defensive trickroom, which I won't discuss here.
Now you might think that simply Taunting with Electrode would get the advantage, and I admit, it would. But would Electrode think to Taunt when facing down a Gardevoir lead? How about Solrock? Maybe not. And remember that Marowak's Thick Club gives Marowak more power for STAB attacks (and other attacks) than Rain does for Water types, which is important, because that means EQ/Arial Ace decimates RD teams (AA only for Ludicolo). So maybe it would work better to try this against them.
2: Shedinja.
Yep, I brought him up. Sue me. I don't particularly care. But sereously, what IS RD suppost to do against Sheddy? Only Kabutops and Gorbyriss have a chance to KO (Kabutops with SE or AA, Gorbyriss with Shadow Ball), so Sheddy can switch into most sweepers freely. Yeah, you need a Rapid spinner (not hard what with Blastoise, Claydol, and Donphan sitting around), but RD teams are only going to want to set up SR or else lose the advantage against other teams.
It might seem a waste to only use Sheddy for RD teams though, so here are the tiers 5 suspects.
MOLTRES: No chance.
FROSLASS: Just about as little a chance as Moltres.
CRESSELIA: Here's where it gets interesting. Shadow Ball is declining fast on Cressy, as many favor Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Signal Beam, or Hidden Power (ground or fighting) over it. If it doesn't have Shadow Ball, it doesn't matter if Cressy has no CMs or 6, it loses.
PORYGON Z: Another interesting one. Porygon Z usually uses one of 2 combos: Bolt Beam, or FightDark. You lose to FightDark and win against Boltbeam, plain and simple. So how do you tell? Switch Sheddy in, then switch to a Dark Type absorber. If they switch, they are either choiced (Which can be handled other ways) or they have Boltbeam. If they Dark Pulse, they obviously are FightDark. If they still Tri-Attack, have fun owning with Sheddy, they must be a n00b.
RAIKOU: When was the last time you saw Shadow ball Raikou? They all run Hidden Power these days.
Now, you STILL might not want to use it because of poor ghost options (Shadow Sneak or Claw, your choice) or poor speed. So you need to BP it with Ambipom, whatever (Ambipom because NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUASITION! er, Baton Pass with it, but really a few others could work to). Point is, if you kill 1 or 2 trouble pokemon, keep SR down, and pass it an Agility, you can just set up SD 3 times and sweep.
Well, I think that's it for now. Goodbye.
j. franky said:
I'm finding it hard to stick both Raikou and Cresselia in teams. However, I do have a team containing both together, and it's pretty effective.
Mattman324 said:
Gardevoir smells like a support lead. Solrock smells like a trick room lead or maybe a support lead. I don't see why Electrode shouldn't try to Taunt both.
I don't know what you're getting at with this. If you're saying that Moltres has no chance against Shedinja then you're dead wrong as Moltres is one of the biggest threats that a Sheddy team has to prepare for. Froslass, on the other hand, is dispatched with boosted Shadow Sneaks or Sucker Punches, in addition to the fact that not all of them run Shadow Ball to begin with. But she does lay hazards and contribute to spin-blocking at the same time, which can be a threat to such a team. Either way, they fare rather differently against a Shedinja team, so your statement makes no sense.
BTW, I don't think Sheddy teams are anywhere near as good now as they were back in the second testing phase, which is where the concept peaked IMO.
Actually there are no auto suspects. But if Froslass and Raikou get nominated for a vote (which is likely) then yeah sure as long as your points are still valid that works.
Shedinja is shit because Toxic and Will o Wisp immediately kill it, and you need a spinner just to keep it alive. Spinning isn't as easy as you make it out to be with Whorelass hanging around the tier. Against RD teams, you might be able to spin, but doing so is a really terrible idea because giving an RD team a free turn will easily cost you the match.
Only use for Shedinja is leading IMO.
Then you don't have to worry about Spinning support or whatever, and it forces some pokes to use a attack(Moltres will use Fire Blast/Overheat/Air Slash for example, not U-Turn), it walls most Ambipom, Shadow Sneaks the hell out of Froslass, and doesn't care about Uxie as long as it doesn't Trick you.
Remembering that you need to stay in until Sheddy is daed, no matter what. Switching Shedinja out means a dead Shedinja, so...
Against RD teams, only Kabutops can really hit a lead Shedinja(unless Ambipom leads uses a Dark attack), and with Focus Sash...
Outside of leading, i see no reason to run Shedinja because it needs too much support.
Then you don't have to worry about Spinning support or whatever, and it forces some pokes to use a attack(Moltres will use Fire Blast/Overheat/Air Slash for example, not U-Turn), it walls most Ambipom, Shadow Sneaks the hell out of Froslass, and doesn't care about Uxie as long as it doesn't Trick you.
Remembering that you need to stay in until Sheddy is daed, no matter what. Switching Shedinja out means a dead Shedinja, so...
Against RD teams, only Kabutops can really hit a lead Shedinja(unless Ambipom leads uses a Dark attack), and with Focus Sash...
Outside of leading, i see no reason to run Shedinja because it needs too much support.
Exactly what would you gain from Moltres using an attacking move and KOing Shedinja? Pretty much most if not all Ambipom run either Pursuit or Payback. I see absolutely no reason to run Shedinja in the lead spot, as it does nothing to support the team. It'll just sit there till something kills it.
Actually, in theory, Shedinja could find a place on a Sunny Day team. It keeps out Sand and Hail while a Jumpluff or Taunt Ambipom lead with SD will largely prevent SR and the monster offense won't give them a turn to do so. It is completely immune to everything most milotic carry (bar toxic, which is why Lum would be > focus sash) and can set up for a late game sweep with SD. Makes a great cleaner when it gets out.
Come to think of it....I gotta test that...
It still isn't safe against those teams that do not carry a SR lead, meaning you'd need to carry a spinner anyway (and then we get to the overpreparation topic), added to the fact Lum Berry only saves Shedinja for a single turn, and I see nothing stopping Milotic from just using Toxic again. Finally, the weather leads could just switch into Sheddy and make it faint by the end of the turn, added to the fact Pursuit still exists and is all over the place by now, so I'd only give that a shot when Cresselia is gone and the hype settles down.
Electrode might not think so, but my knee-jerk reaction would be to Taunt both leads. Especially Solrock, who also gets Stealth Rock and is horrible in an antilead position.
2: Shedinja.
Yep, I brought him up. Sue me. I don't particularly care. But sereously, what IS RD suppost to do against Sheddy? Only Kabutops and Gorbyriss have a chance to KO (Kabutops with SE or AA, Gorbyriss with Shadow Ball), so Sheddy can switch into most sweepers freely. Yeah, you need a Rapid spinner (not hard what with Blastoise, Claydol, and Donphan sitting around), but RD teams are only going to want to set up SR or else lose the advantage against other teams.
It might seem a waste to only use Sheddy for RD teams though, so here are the tiers 5 suspects.
Lolwut
Technically correct, as it gets a SE move as well.
You're forgetting NP sets
Pretty much the last time I saw one.
Shedinja, it seems, has the magical property of being able to sweep with +6 Attack and +2 Speed. Amazing.
Read end-game cleaner. This is assuming Milotic is weakened (and sponging a double STAB fire attack or 2 will do that), and the opposing weather lead is dead. Neither is hard to do without losing all of your other pokes.
Still doesn't take away the fact you'll need to run a spinner for the sake of not being screwed by midgame rock setups (Sun doesn't put enough pressure so that it's impossible to find place to setup, and if you do run one that means you only have place for 3 sun abusers, not counting the need of dedicated setups) nor that you'll have to play using 5 pokés if you don't want to have your strategy busted.
The primary problem I see with this is that it discourages people from suggesting less "flashy" potential Suspects; writing a nomination paragraph is a lot of work, and I have hard time seeing anyone even writing a paragraph for Moltres/Kabutops/whatever if they don't think anyone else will mention it even if they believe it is horribly broken. As a result, should we go this route I believe that there should at least be a public count of how many nominations have been submitted for each Pokemon, to let people know that it is being discussed as a potential Suspect.
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