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np: UU - Can't Touch This

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Agreed, Moltres is probably BL, and I considered writing a nomination for it, though it will hopefully be considered for voting without an explanation from me. Not only is Stalltres almost as annoying as SubSeed Jumpluff, LO Moltres has very good (perfect?) coverage. Playing with a Sunny Day team (think of it as my version of spikes), I've caused an opponent to quit more than once just by bringing out Moltres and annihilating anything that comes its way - and this with just Fire Blast and Solar Beam, having taken off Air Slash for Sunny Day. Even Milotic can be 2HKO'd much of the time, with the sun causing Moltres to take paltry damage in return. The only things that can really wall it are Chansey, other Moltres, and maybe Arcanine and Houndoom. Most everything else is simply blown away.

That said, Moltres does have the gigantic weakness of losing half of its health by switching in with Stealth Rock in play. If SR didn't exist (what a wonderful world...), Moltres would almost definitely be BL right now, or even legitly OU.


Edit: Scyther can't Roost, and is a bit less bulky. Pretty good sweeper, but probably also a bit easier to wall or stall of LO recoil. Or something.
 
Having Stealth Rock and Spikes up, along with a Rapid Spinner is not my idea of little to no support. It sounds more like Moltres needs a "truck load of support from his team to be able to sweep". Little to no support probably just consists of 1 layer of entry hazards, that's about it in my opinion. Just like Salamence (Who is another controversial Pokemon), Moltres can heavily dent things and even sweep, but without good support (Rapid Spinner + Entry Hazards + Chansey and revenge killer removers) from his team, he's not lasting too long.
 
i dont think scyther is a legitimate comparison by any means.

Differences:
-Moltres has better defenses +20/+10/+5 in HP/Def/SpD and a better typing (though neither are amazing) in exchage for +15 speed which offers a speed tie against mismagius.
-This means Moltres can run a stall set, scyther could run a BP set.
-Scyther can stat up, Moltres can sunny day.
-The obvious fact that they attack from different stats (as you mentionned)is still important as scyther is vulnerable to burn and intimidate from the likes of arcanine it also means that it faces diffeent walls (more on that later)
-Moltres can run a mixed set where scyther can't.
-Moltres gets better coverage; scyther usually has to choose between Brick Break for coverage or quick attack.
-Several pokemon outclass scyther in the SD sweeper and SD Sweeper/ BPer category whereas very few can do as much as Moltres and cant do it as well.
-The major difference is that Moltres can deal with its common switch ins, Milotic (with some entry hazards) can be 2HKOed normally and can be dealt with by a sunnybeam set. Chansey can be beaten by a pressure stall set. Scyther cant KO Steelix/ registeel/ regirock/ rhyperior even after a SD or Rotom.

Not to say that one is better than the other, but they are very different. In fact i struggle to find similarities beyond a x4 rock weakness. I dont think comparing the two does anything really to help your cause.

My opinion is that Moltres is very powerful but there are pokes that should be removed before Moltres is considered.
 
Once again, I show my incredible moveset knowledge. I guess I'll throw out that roost is pretty rare, as it needs three attacks for the coverage, and that it is less of a threat before it dances, and then go to bed. Too late to think clearly :S

Edit: What Flashbolt said.
 
@ flashbolt

Very true. Don't get me wrong though, i am neither pro or anti moltres. I'm merely trying to stimulate some discussion cause atm it seems to be on a knife's edge.
 
Always... one sided arguements. If you assume SR (Spikes, Toxic Spikes) is in play for the defender's side than it is justly so for the attackers. With that said Moltres always comes in with 50% Hp and with a LO then it isn't going to last long. With Specs or Scarf (complete waste IMO), then you are "easier" to wall.
 
God Bless Atheism said:
Always... one sided arguements. If you assume SR (Spikes, Toxic Spikes) is in play for the defender's side than it is justly so for the attackers. With that said Moltres always comes in with 50% Hp and with a LO then it isn't going to last long. With Specs or Scarf (complete waste IMO), then you are "easier" to wall.
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Roost. That makes a huge difference. Also, you can't just assume Spikes on both sides - your team carrying Moltres probably means that you pack a spinner, which means free entries for Moltres. At worst, though, Moltres comes in at 50% on something like Venusaur, roosts on the switch back to full health.
 
Firstly, Scyther isn't even remotely similar. This is like in Little Cup when people compare Gligar to Garchomp. Just because they share a 4x weakness does not mean they are similar.

Anyway, I think I addressed the "Moltres vs Froslass" argument in my paragraphs last round so i'll cut out the section here:


c) Are easy Spikes "too good"?

Again, the answer (imo) is yes. There are so many Pokemon that are simply near impossible to stop once Spikes are on the field. Pokemon sweep a significant portion of the metagame with little effort in common battle conditions (easy spikes = creating a common battle condition, where as not "easy" spikes aren't as common). For example, Moltres, Honchkrow, Blaziken, Venusaur, Magmortar, Swellow, Gallade, Raikou, Drapion, Mismagius, Azumarill and Sceptile, anything with Rock Polish, etc (I could list every sweeper in UU I guess :D) are near-impossible to reliably stop. Essentially, anything that's fast and hits decently hard, anything with strong priority, or anything that can boost it's speed and hit hard.

Lets start by looking at Moltres:

Initially, Moltres has quite a few solid and reliable switch ins (as in, they can switch in and force Moltres out) to it. Lets take a look at those Pokemon in the top 50 + Regirock (#51):


  1. Arcanine
  2. Raikou
  3. Milotic
  4. Umbreon
  5. Clefable
  6. Azumarill
  7. Feraligatr
  8. Blastoise
  9. Chansey
  10. Altaria
  11. Regirock
11 reliable switch-ins with just SR. Not bad. Now let's see how many of them can switch into an Air Slash or Fire Blast with Spikes:


  1. Azumarill*
  2. Altaria**
  3. Chansey***
*Azumarill loses when it switches into HP Grass: (63.34% - 74.81%). 63% minimum + 25 Spikes + 12.5 Stealth Rock = 100.5% = OHKOed 100% of the time when it switches into HP Grass.

**Altaria can't do shit to Moltres.

***Chansey barely survives.

Fire Blast vs Chansey: 31.98% average damage (I rounded to 32%)

32 (Fire Blast) + 25 (Spikes) + 12.5 (Stealth Rock) - 6.25 = 63.25% HP. This means Chansey will survive with at most 6.75% (30% min from Fire Blast) which is basically a Stealth Rock switch in.

This removed a ridiculous amount of counters, and the counters that are left are shaky at best. Very shaky. Moltres can essentially sweep with little to no effort with Spikes in play.

Lets look at Swellow next, because it is another common sweeper.

Let's look at the Pokemon who survive a Facade or a Brave Bird without SR/Spikes:


  1. Aggron
  2. Altaria
  3. Arcanine
  4. Azumarill
  5. Blastoise
  6. Claydol
  7. Donphan
  8. Drapion (with some investment)
  9. Kabutops
  10. Nidoqueen
  11. Mesprit
  12. Milotic
  13. Miltank
  14. Moltres
  15. Omastar
  16. Regirock
  17. Registeel
  18. Rhyperior
  19. Rotom
  20. Slowbro
  21. Spiritomb
  22. Steelix
  23. Umbreon
  24. Weezing

That's a fair amount of checks, making it difficult to sweep with Swellow (especially when compared to Moltres). However, let's add Spikes and Stealth Rock into the mix.


  1. Aggron
  2. Claydol
  3. Donphan (Survives with 10% assuming min damage)
  4. Kabutops
  5. Mesprit (bulky variants)
  6. Milotic (Survives with 10% assuming min damage)
  7. Miltank
  8. Omastar
  9. Regirock
  10. Registeel
  11. Rhyperior
  12. Rotom
  13. Steelix
  14. Slowbro
  15. Weezing

Now that durastically reduced Swellows 1-time counters, but worse yet, Swellow has U-turn.

It is unrealistic to think that these Pokemon can survive 1-2 U-turns while taking up to 37.5% every time they switch in and wall Swellow. Lets look at which Pokemon are alright enough to switch into U-turn once, and Facade after that (meaning they need to survive Facade after losing HP from 2 rounds of residual damage (6.5%, 53.125-75% (depending on Stealth Rock damage and Spike damage)) + U-turn damage:


  1. Aggron
  2. Registeel
  3. Rotom
  4. Weezing

Four Pokemon are left from 24 original counters, who would still otherwise be standing after residual damage + U-turn.

Yes, Swellow will be at 50% from Stealth Rock damage, but we all know that Swellow can easily sweep with that little health since it won't be taking any hits.

Now, these sweepers 'sweeping with little effort' would be situational of Froslass didn't provide "easy Spikes". The fact that Froslass reliably, and easily will set up Spikes means that Swellow and Moltres are by definition sweeping with little effort in common battle conditions.

 This is why "easy" Spikes aren't merely "annoying", they are broken.


The main point here is that Moltres only sweeps in common battle conditions when Froslass is there. Without Froslass in particular as the Spiker, Moltres will not sweep in common battle conditions. This is why, imo, Froslass is the broken Pokemon here. Especially when you consider its similar effects on Pokemon such as Swellow.

Side note: I think all this arguing for banning Froslass got me too dependent on it. I wonder if I can make a good team without it -_-.


 
Erazor said:
Roost. That makes a huge difference. Also, you can't just assume Spikes on both sides - your team carrying Moltres probably means that you pack a spinner, which means free entries for Moltres. At worst, though, Moltres comes in at 50% on something like Venusaur, roosts on the switch back to full health.
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Pretty much this. Most users of Moltres will be carrying spinners, meaning rocks most likely wont be down, but even if they are, Moltres can use its bulk to utilize roost, something most sweepers can't boast of. Flashbolt also said pretty much everything I would have in regards to Scyther, mainly being that they have pretty much nothing in common except the 4X rock weak. Scyther also can't do much of anything to its counters while Moltres can effectively remove its counters with entry hazards, clearing the way for a sweep.
 
HR. said:
Pretty much this. Most users of Moltres will be carrying spinners, meaning rocks most likely wont be down, but even if they are, Moltres can use its bulk to utilize roost, something most sweepers can't boast of. Flashbolt also said pretty much everything I would have in regards to Scyther, mainly being that they have pretty much nothing in common except the 4X rock weak. Scyther also can't do much of anything to its counters while Moltres can effectively remove its counters with entry hazards, clearing the way for a sweep.
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It's also worth considering that Moltres (in particular), and offensive teams in general will actually prevent Stealth Rock from being set up. Good ones will at least.

For example, you send Moltres in on a predicted Donphan / Steelix / etc switch - no Stealth Rock.
 
Heysup said:
It's also worth considering that Moltres (in particular), and offensive teams in general will actually prevent Stealth Rock from being set up. Good ones will at least.

For example, you send Moltres in on a predicted Donphan / Steelix / etc switch - no Stealth Rock.
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Another very good point that I should have mentioned. Simply put, it isn't very hard at all to get Moltres in safely, and once its in, something is going down.
 
It's also worth considering that Moltres (in particular), and offensive teams in general will actually prevent Stealth Rock from being set up. Good ones will at least.

For example, you send Moltres in on a predicted Donphan / Steelix / etc switch - no Stealth Rock.
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Well, I see some flaws to that arguement. 1) You assume perfect prediction on one side, 2) You've already seen Donphan, Steelix and so it is likely that Stealth Rock is up, common Taunters Ambipom or Drapion face a Taunt and Die (severly injured) situation or a Switch and the opponent gets Stealth Rock. Not a concrete situation but is fairly common.

Roost. That makes a huge difference. Also, you can't just assume Spikes on both sides - your team carrying Moltres probably means that you pack a spinner, which means free entries for Moltres. At worst, though, Moltres comes in at 50% on something like Venusaur, roosts on the switch back to full health.
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At which point a Moltres check comes in and you are forced back out. Roost means that it lacks a Choice Item/ U-Turn and so it 'loses' versitility and or power.

Pretty much this. Most users of Moltres will be carrying spinners, meaning rocks most likely wont be down, but even if they are, Moltres can use its bulk to utilize roost, something most sweepers can't boast of.
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Again, you are giving 'perfect' one-sided scenarios. Spikes are on both sides of the field or are on neither.
 
Before I continue, I just want to say that I believe that Spikes + Moltres is broken, with Froslass as the culprit.

God Bless Atheism said:
Well, I see some flaws to that arguement. 1) You assume perfect prediction on one side, 2) You've already seen Donphan, Steelix and so it is likely that Stealth Rock is up, common Taunters Ambipom or Drapion face a Taunt and Die (severly injured) situation or a Switch and the opponent gets Stealth Rock. Not a concrete situation but is fairly common.
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Not true.

I am considering how offense teams are played. Think about it; why would Moltres NOT switch in? Versus stall, it would avoid something like Milotic, but if you send in your Grass type to beat Milotic, it stops Donphan/steelix/etc from setting up anyway. Versus offense you simply want Moltres in every chance you get since it absolutely will KO something.

It's a reasonable assumption that the good offense player will be able to make sure his Pokemon that "stop Stealth Rock set up" are out as much as possible.

Also, remember how Yanmega did the same thing?

Moltres + Spikes > Specs Yanmega imo.
 
Spikes is the problem, not Moltres then :/ To add on to what I'm trying to say, the supporter is the true culprit to why "Moltres is BL". Now the question arises, who provides Spikes easily to help Moltres sweep sufficiently easier? The answer is Froslass, not Moltres.
 
Having Stealth Rock and Spikes up, along with a Rapid Spinner is not my idea of little to no support. It sounds more like Moltres needs a "truck load of support from his team to be able to sweep". Little to no support probably just consists of 1 layer of entry hazards, that's about it in my opinion. Just like Salamence (Who is another controversial Pokemon), Moltres can heavily dent things and even sweep, but without good support (Rapid Spinner + Entry Hazards + Chansey and revenge killer removers) from his team, he's not lasting too long.
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I agree with this entirely. Plenty of UUs can sweep with that much support, not just Moltres. It'll be a battle in and of itself to keep Spikes up and Stealth Rock off the field, let alone set them up yourself. Azumarrill checks it pretty hard, too. Moltres is a powerful special attacker, but not much else.
 
While I do agree that Moltres with Spikes is broken (therefore Froslass is broken) i noticed one problem with your argument Heysup. You gave those lists of counters assuming Stealth Rock and three layers of Spikes.

The first issue is about the three layers of Spikes. In the lead position, Froslass should be able to get an average of two players against a good player. The first turn is sets Spikes, they break your Sash. The second turn you lay Spikes, they kill you.

The second problem is about having Stealth Rock. If you do not have a Stealth Rock user as your lead and your opponent switches in something that your only check/counter to is Moltres, you do not have enough time to set up Stealth Rock.

The last problem is also about Stealth Rock, but on your own side. If you are against a lead that has Stealth Rock (Uxie, Rhyperior, Omastar, etc.) and you have a Moltres, you should want to prevent Stealth Rock at all costs. So you Taunt first turn, while they will usually break your sash. Then you get one layer of Spikes. While you could predict their attack, I would much rather not have to worry about Stealth Rock at all, especially if they have a bulky Ghost.

Oh, by the way, my stance is Moltres is not broken, but Froslass is.

And nominations will be ending tomorrow, so it will finally be time to send in my essay! Speaking of essays, I hate my Science teacher.
 
I don't understand why people think Moltres is broken when a Pokemon who is arguably better at the task people are suggesting Moltres is broken due to is now in NU. I am of course referring to Magmortar.

Now, you might be asking, "FlareBlitz, has all that rain messed up your head? How is Magmortar better than Moltres?". But think about it.

Here are the advantages Moltres has over Magmortar:

-outruns base 85s who invest in max speed (basically Toxicroak) and Hitmonlee. Ties with base 90s. The most significant advantage.
-15 base HP, 23 base DEF, 5 base ATK. Not really significant on offensive sets, especially given the 4x SR weakness.
-U-turn. Significant on choice sets I guess.
-Flying type. This one is somewhat of a disadvantage too.
-Roost.

Now here are the advantages Magmortar has over Moltres:

-Thunderbolt. Magmortar can run BoltBeam to get past both Altaria and bulky waters, or Tbolt and HP Grass for impeccable coverage against all water types. Helps Magmortar handle bulky waters better than Moltres. Milotic, for instance, is ko'd by Tbolt after switching into Fire Blast; Moltres needs multiple hazards to do the same with Fire Blast -> HP Grass.
-Focus Blast. Helps Magmortar handle Chansey better with a Choice Specs set; 45.6% - 53.7% against 0/252 Calm Chansey with Specs Focus Blast, so even if only SR is up you're looking at a good chance of a 2hko. Specs Moltres never 2hkos with anything without 2 layers of spikes and SR.
-Cross Chop. 0 atk Magmortar with Cross Chop outright kills 0/0 Calm Chansey, and kills 0/252 Calm after it switches into Fire Blast. Again, Moltres isn't getting past Chansey any time soon, and its physical movepool consists of Return and Sky Attack.
-Flame Body. MUCH better than Pressure on an offensive set. Nothing funnier than burning some random physical scarfer/priority user automatically.
-Not quad SR weak. You don't need a spinner just to keep it alive past one switch-in.

So could someone explain to me why offensive Moltres is broken despite having such significant disadvantages when compared to a Pokemon in NU? Because I'm not seeing it. I'll grant that Moltres is about 100x better at stalling, but that's not what everyone is saying makes it broken.
 
j. franky said:
Spikes is the problem, not Moltres then :/ To add on to what I'm trying to say, the supporter is the true culprit to why "Moltres is BL". Now the question arises, who provides Spikes easily to help Moltres sweep sufficiently easier? The answer is Froslass, not Moltres.
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The problem is that really only one layer of Spikes (aside from Stealth Rock) are needed to allow Moltres to beat what it otherwise couldn't (Milotic). That being said, why is Froslass the culprit and not any of the other Spikers in the tier?
 
FlareBlitz said:
Stuff
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Dang... I'm totally giving Magmortar a test drive on my Sunny Day team now.

Listing focus blast as an advantage, though, is a bit iffy. The chance that you hit twice in a row with it is only 49%. Darned legendaries, keeping Aura Sphere to themselves.

As to the question of why Froslass is head and shoulders above the other spikers in NU, something that's pretty significant is that Frossy's sash cannot be broken with Fake Out. An offensive Fake Out lead could otherwise deny spikes with Fake Out + whatever on a pokémon as frail as Froslass.
 
Nice rebuttal Flareblitz.

I would also like to add that Magmortar has a much wider movepool over Moltres.
Erm... Magmortar doesn't learn Ice Beam last time I checked...
 
FlareBlitz said:
Here are the advantages Moltres has over Magmortar:

-outruns base 85s who invest in max speed (basically Toxicroak) and Hitmonlee. Ties with base 90s. The most significant advantage.
-15 base HP, 23 base DEF, 5 base ATK. Not really significant on offensive sets, especially given the 4x SR weakness.
-U-turn. Significant on choice sets I guess.
-Flying type. This one is somewhat of a disadvantage too.
-Roost.
Click to expand...

You have a tendency to give one sided arguments, so I'll help you out on this one:

Let's see. Firstly you're completely underestimating it's defensiveness as a point. Do you not realize how valuable those defenses are for taking priority attacks and switching in? Being able to switch Moltres in is the biggest difference between Magmortar and Moltres. Additionally, Roost is hugely important. Especially with Absol (and formerly Honchkrow) in the tier spamming Sucker Punch. Roost with excellent defenses really cancels out its SR weakness imo.

Secondly, being Flying-type is arguably the best type in the game (unless you have levitate). Yes, you're weak to Stealth Rock, but you're also immune to Spikes and the most common attack in the game: Earthquake (which is why Magmortar is so hard to use). It also grants you incredible resistances to things like Fighting which happen to be common priority attacks.

I would also argue Pressure being better than Flame Body because it beats Cresselia.

Finally, you're missing Moltres's MAIN advantage: Air Slash. STAB Air Slash allows Moltres to beat Hariyama and Hitmontop reliably. Magmortar is practically useless against them.

tl;dr:

Air Slash, EQ / Spike Immunity / mach punch resist, Roost, Defenses, Speed, and Pressure > Thunderbolt. Basically the only thing Magmortar has is Thunderbolt.

I'm not saying Moltres is BL, because it isn't, I'm just saying that you're argument is a little off.
 
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