crobat was a good counter to roserade too bad he's gone ;____; if shaymin is banned i think roserade should be too, because its the same pokemon except slower/alot more powerful special attack and a secondary stab (shaymin is more bulky but roserade does have 5 better SpD lol). i know that's a lame arguement because shaymin could be used on the defense and roserade's poison typing is a huge let down in that area. but shaymin didnt have the poison stab to annihilate other grassers and one of the best sleep moves in the game. if it wasn't for the 10 less speed roserade is obviously the superior offensive pokemon, and even being slightly slower and less bulky i think roserade is clearly better than shaymin at attacking.
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np: UU - Here It Goes Again
- Thread starter Caelum
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And if you're going to claim that I'm wrong, please don't cite smogon as a reference. Use bulbapedia; they are more accurate and clearer more often (for another example notice the distinction between Solid Rock on smogon and on bulbapedia).
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Damage_modification
^ this basically discusses critical hit stages.
The smogon description is incorrect.
uhh won't EQ and or Ice Punch blow up Roserade? She can barely take resisted physical onslaughts, much less neutral/super effective hits.
HP Ground + Synthesis? So what are you dropping in order to run both of those on the same set, Leaf Storm, Sludge Bomb, or Sleep Powder? No matter which of the 3 you pick you're losing something valuable and leaving yourself open to other counters, so whatever.
Anyway, Modest LO HP Ground is still only (on average) a 4HKO on max/max Careful Registeel, even with HP Ground it's much harder to bring down than any of the Poison-types, even max/max Careful Drapion is 2HKO'd 100% of the time, and min/min Toxicroak is almost always OHKO'd. As for fighting back, T-wave + Iron Head means that Registeel is usually going to win a one-on-one showdown, or if you want, Ice Punch is a 2HKO and does more damage than min/min Roserade can heal with Synthesis (not like healing matters, since if you drop HP Ground for Synthesis, you really can't do any sort of damage to Registeel at all, so it hardly matters that you can heal).
There is absolutely no reason that Registeel cannot run Rest Talk. Ideally you just put SR on a different Pokemon, such as an Uxie or Mesprit lead. Registeel keeps an absurd number of threats in check, there's alot of pressure on it, so I don't see why giving it healing wouldn't be viable.
Anyway, Modest LO HP Ground is still only (on average) a 4HKO on max/max Careful Registeel, even with HP Ground it's much harder to bring down than any of the Poison-types, even max/max Careful Drapion is 2HKO'd 100% of the time, and min/min Toxicroak is almost always OHKO'd. As for fighting back, T-wave + Iron Head means that Registeel is usually going to win a one-on-one showdown, or if you want, Ice Punch is a 2HKO and does more damage than min/min Roserade can heal with Synthesis (not like healing matters, since if you drop HP Ground for Synthesis, you really can't do any sort of damage to Registeel at all, so it hardly matters that you can heal).
There is absolutely no reason that Registeel cannot run Rest Talk. Ideally you just put SR on a different Pokemon, such as an Uxie or Mesprit lead. Registeel keeps an absurd number of threats in check, there's alot of pressure on it, so I don't see why giving it healing wouldn't be viable.
No, Bulbapedia's wrong. Let's use some actual calculations.
In a match I had in the past, a SpecsJolt using HP Ice on my Rhyperior did ~60%.
The calculations without Solid Rock would have been:
478 Atk vs 146 Def & 434 HP (70 Base Power): 328 - 388 (75.58% - 89.40%)
However, since Rhyperior DOES have Solid Rock, the calculations are:
478 Atk vs 146 Def & 434 HP (70 Base Power): 246 - 291 (56.68% - 67.05%)
If you divide 67.05 by 89.40, you get 0.75, which is the same as reducing it by 1/4.
The same goes for 56.68 and 75.58. (0.75).
You kind of dabbed your argument. Your 5 SpD improvement point means nothing with Roserade's aweful HP; then when you look at Roserade's Defense you realize they aren't even comparable defensively (252 Roserade barely takes resisted physical hits better than neutral hits on Shaymin). Another thing is that outside of Leaf Storm (one shot ), Roserade doesn't have any really decent STAB move. Shaymin, on the other hand, has fucking Seed Flare. Seed Flare is a huuuuuge deal, a key argument against Shaymin and major difference between the two offensively. Roserade has a one turn blowout or is stuck with Energy Ball, while Shaymin has 40% chance (excluding miss opportunities) to gain the equivilant of a free Nasty Plot.
I'll give you that Roserade is quite dangerous as a supporter, but "they're the same" is not accurate at all.
Just going to say that Smogon is more accurate than Bulbapedia; if there are conflictions then Smogon is the more reliable source. EDIT: I'm not trying to imply Bulbapedia is wrong on this one but they shouldn't be the first site in mind when mechanics are involved.
Also on the note of Rock Solid I've seen actual evidence that it is 1/3 (been deleted since then), but this isn't a thread to discuss mechanics.
As far as I know, the folks over at bulbapedia actually hack into the game's coding to get their information whereas I don't think smogon does; this is how they find out how certain evolved Pokemon actually do learn moves at low levels and such things. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if this is indeed the case, as I think it is, I'd definitely defer to bulbapedia.
Regardless of source, though, I'm fairly positive that Night Slash has 33% critical hit chance and not 25%.
If the libelldra calculator uses 25% (which I believe is the point of your example), then it probably is so. Both serebii and bulbapedia say that the reduction is 33%, though, whereas smogon's the only resource that says 25%, so it seemed logical to assume that smogon had the facts wrong on that one. I have no personal experience with Rhyperior (and thus no calculations), however, so scratch that example.
Trying t get back on track as to the actual topic of the new UU metagame.
I think that Missy has become for more underpowered now that it is one of the biggest threats (yes I know that it sounds weird). By being one of the top threats people have adapted to easily beating it, Encore Clefable is one example of this. There is also Alteria with either Haze, Roar, or Perish Song, also Milotic with Haze make good other UU counters. Shuckle, Noctowl (without Thunderbolt), an Psych Up Regice round out the best NU counters. Not to mention offensiv ethreats liek Payback Life Orb Ampibom, Foresight Hitmontop, and HySup's Roserade (if it doe snot already have a CM) . All of these are only solutions to the CubCM versions. To me it seems like Missy is now more valuable as a Trick specs poke than as a SuBCM sweeper.
Any thoughts as for other counters or why it is not stopped by some of these pokes?
I think that Missy has become for more underpowered now that it is one of the biggest threats (yes I know that it sounds weird). By being one of the top threats people have adapted to easily beating it, Encore Clefable is one example of this. There is also Alteria with either Haze, Roar, or Perish Song, also Milotic with Haze make good other UU counters. Shuckle, Noctowl (without Thunderbolt), an Psych Up Regice round out the best NU counters. Not to mention offensiv ethreats liek Payback Life Orb Ampibom, Foresight Hitmontop, and HySup's Roserade (if it doe snot already have a CM) . All of these are only solutions to the CubCM versions. To me it seems like Missy is now more valuable as a Trick specs poke than as a SuBCM sweeper.
Any thoughts as for other counters or why it is not stopped by some of these pokes?
Registeel@Leftovers
EVs vary
Careful/Clear Body
-Iron Head
-Curse
-Rest
-Sleep Talk/EQ
This is stupid hard to kill. Especially without a Honchkrow Superpower. It really forces you to use a powerful fire type.
Not really. Shuckle takes big damage from Shadow Ball/HP fighting due to most EVing it for physical def and can't break subs with Knock Off, so assuming you sub on the switch and get Encored into an attacking move, he'll still take a big hit from SR/attack and you'll force another switch.
I find SubCMers too invaluble because even though the most notorious is gone (Honchkrow) Sucker Punch users are everywhere. Hitmontop, Absol, Kangaskhan, and Toxicroak are such common switch ins that you pretty much require sub mind games to beat them (because Kanga and Toxicroak have a shot at setting up a sub and you can't really let them do that if you value your team).
As for Foresight Hitmontop: He's ONLY on stall teams with Aromatherapy/Heal Bell. If that's happening, you won't directly sweep with anything, really, so missy is only really good as a fighting move absorber and causing switches until late game when the special walls are down. It's not that he isn't a counter, it's just that he's going to take at least 35-40% from an Unboosted shadow ball, and runs the risk of being 2HKO'd with a CM up and he has very limited usage.
With Trick Specs, you're really limiting what your Mismagius can do, as soon as anyone with Sucker Punch comes in, you're done. Leave the Trick Specs to Espeon, Mespirit, and the others, they do it so much better.
I've actually been using Jumpluff on my team, it makes a pretty good counter to SubCM Mismagius and SubPunch Azumarill (among others) by hitting them with a speedy Encore as they Sub. Being able to spread Sleep Powder and Leech Seed around is great too, as both encourage switches and easily rack up a lot of damage with SR and Spikes, or allow free setup turns for your other Pokemon.
I use a scarfed pursuit drapion to deal with missy and ambipom and espeon. It's a pretty good switch into all 3
IMO Absol is better than Honchkrow, for several reasons. First of all, while it doesn't have the ability to switch into choiced ground attacks, it can still come in on things like Chansey, and either set up a Swords Dance or hurt something very badly. Next, it has Swords Dance, which allows it to OHKO most Steelix after a single boost with Superpower. Honchkrow can hurt it with Heat Wave, but in order to do major damage it needs LO, which racks up a lot of damage in tandem with SR. While Honchkrow does have dual STAB, a sweeper needs to be focusing on hitting the things its primary STAB can't, so in reality it is a moot point. Dark + Fighting works superbly well, and Absol often runs Swords Dance to set up. There is three moves, and it appreciates STAB Sucker Punch, so all 4 slots are already taken up. I dunno, whenever I use Honchkrow I typically regret it since unless I send it in on a choiced ground attack, I could have been using that turn to set up with Absol, rather than predicting and having to switch out, only to take 25%(SR) the next time I switch in.
BTW, whoever thinks Honchkrow is bulky should take another look. 100 / 52 / 52 is pretty damn bad, any STAB Bug/Fighting move that would be used against Absol will likely OHKO it anyways.
That's what I think of them as physical attackers, I think Honchkrow should stick to Nasty Plot / Dark Pulse / Superpower or Substitute / Heat Wave.
BTW, whoever thinks Honchkrow is bulky should take another look. 100 / 52 / 52 is pretty damn bad, any STAB Bug/Fighting move that would be used against Absol will likely OHKO it anyways.
That's what I think of them as physical attackers, I think Honchkrow should stick to Nasty Plot / Dark Pulse / Superpower or Substitute / Heat Wave.
Fighting resists Dark and isn't weak to itself. Flying is strong against Fighting. Not a moot point at all. Plus the ability to wear down Drapion with a reliable 120 power move with no drawbacks was also a fairly big deal.
It isn't the raw stats so much as the type combination. The number one reason I always used Honchkrow over Absol was the fact that it could take on the standard LO Shaymin one-on-one and force it out. It could even switch in on occasions, especially on predicted Earth Powers, whereas Absol would be taking huge damage from any attack and not even be able to KO without a bit of luck once in.
A close second was Mismagius, in particular due to the Fighting neutrality. Honchkrow could switch in on standard CM Missy and easily dispatch with Pursuit, or force it out with Night Slash / Drill Peck. With special defensive EVs this was even easier, and I very often did this as I found all that speed to be redundant for the most part. This is one important case where Honchkrow's typing allows for defensive investment to make a significant difference. I don't need to explain why Absol cannot reliably do this.
There's also the issue of Fighting priority attacks, but they have been discussed substantially already.
Given that Registeel and Steelix are still relatively common, I see no reason as to why proper support pokemon, which already glue teams together, wouldn't be used to beat Drapion. Same thing can be said for Shaymin, who easily 2HKOs 4 HP / 0 SpD Honchkrow, even without Stealth Rock, with LO Seed Flare. Keep in mind that Shaymin often ran(at the time) HP Rock/Ice for Crobat, so it wouldn't need to risk the accuracy.
I understand Mismagius, but again, all three pokemon you listed were able to be checked by Registeel, or Steelix + Flying type(for Shaymin). Obviously, most teams had these pokemon for these threats already, so why not drop Honchkrow in order to go all-offensive with Absol? I guess it is really up to preference, but my initial point was that Absol is definitely not worse than Honchkrow-it may be better on many teams.
For the life of me, I can't remember: how do you determine what your stats are for this test? Is Rating the average of your shoddy rating range, or your CRE? And is deviation the difference of your shoddy rating range / 2, or something else entirely? I know it was explained during the first round of testing, but I can't find the old thread anymore...
Um, no it couldn't, not unless you ran Scarf or a whole lot of special defense EVs. Either that, or your opponents never used SR. Timid LO HP Ice/Rock is a guaranteed kill after SR damage. Likewise Seed Flare is a guaranteed 2HKO regardless of SR, so you don't get to safely come in on that. The only time standard Honchkrow could switch into Shaymin and then reliably beat it one-on-one would be if you switch into Earth Power when SR is not up and Honchkrow has taken zero prior damage.
Your rating is the average of your shoddy rating range. Deviation is the difference, yes. I think for the last test, the requirements were a 1500 rating and a deviation of 45, but they haven't specified for this test.
Alright, thanks a bunch. And they actually did say it, it's in the quoted section in the first post; 1600 and 55, I think it is now.
I'm finding Swords Dance Toxicroak to be surprisingly effective. The ability to force common Pokemon out, such as Milotic and Absol, lets it set up rather easily, and from there it proceeds to sweep with decent Speed, STAB Cross Chop (which prevents the Regis and Steelix from stopping it) and the wonderful power of +2 Sucker Punch. Cross Chop's accuracy can be a letdown, but besides that, it is only really walled by Slowbro, which is pretty good by the standards of UU physical sweepers, I think.
It's also walled by Uxie who can Yawn on a predicted Sucker Punch or Psychic for the OHKO. I've found Steelix able to handle a +2 Cross Chop and do major damage if not kill with EQ.
I have noticed, though, that every Balance/Stall team is running Regibro now that Honchkrow is gone, as he was the only one that could dent that particular setup.
+2 Adamant Life Orb Cross Chop v max HP Steelix: 123.73% minimum
v max HP/max Def neutral natured Steelix: 109.04% minimum
v max HP/max Def +nature (no one even runs this lol) Steelix: 98.31% to 115.82% (87.18% chance to OHKO)
Maybe you were up against a Croak that wasn't running Life Orb or something, I dunno.
As for Regibro, hey, Absol is still out there. He's even better equipped to deal with Regibro than Honchkrow was, since he gets Swords Dance, which allows him to flatly OHKO either one of those two Pokemon after Dancing, if I'm not mistaken. Blaziken and Moltres can screw it up too with Fire Blast + HP Grass/Electric landing a 2HKO on Slowbro (and Registeel obviously unable to switch in). Magneton (very underappreciated) and Houndoom can break Regibro easily, aswell.
v max HP/max Def neutral natured Steelix: 109.04% minimum
v max HP/max Def +nature (no one even runs this lol) Steelix: 98.31% to 115.82% (87.18% chance to OHKO)
Maybe you were up against a Croak that wasn't running Life Orb or something, I dunno.
As for Regibro, hey, Absol is still out there. He's even better equipped to deal with Regibro than Honchkrow was, since he gets Swords Dance, which allows him to flatly OHKO either one of those two Pokemon after Dancing, if I'm not mistaken. Blaziken and Moltres can screw it up too with Fire Blast + HP Grass/Electric landing a 2HKO on Slowbro (and Registeel obviously unable to switch in). Magneton (very underappreciated) and Houndoom can break Regibro easily, aswell.
I've seen a spike in Magnetons, they're extremely good, they trap Steelix and Registeel very easily, but have to carry Magnet Rise. They do outspeed the majority of EQ users and have amazing Special Attack. I'm considering building a new team around him, but I have to hit my rating first :(
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