np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head

[PK Gaming]

Neutrality of people running the game blah blah blah. I just want to make a point after watching this past tour where stall clearly dominated the game. The voters are going extremely banheavy on offensive threats while not understanding the implications these votes have on the balance of the game. I just want to enlighten you all on the implications of banning the 4 suspects so you guys fully understand what it will do to the game.

By banning froslass, you are in turn banning the best offensive spiker in the UU metagame, while stall also uses froslass, they can still resort to running omastar if need be. So essentially you're depriving offense of the ability to set spikes up, making sweeps for offensive pokemon harder.

By banning raikou and/or moltres, you're banning the best special sweepers in the game, two of the only special sweepers that can break through stall given the right conditions or proper support. Are they really broken enough in every circumstance that it's worth giving up the ability for offense to break through the special side of stall.

By banning dugtrio, you're banning a pokemon that does what? Traps two stall Pokemon? Really? Is anything more than guaranteeing one kill against stall really that bad? It's a good Pokemon in its own right, but from what I've been seeing, people are generally focusing on its ability to trap and kill Registeel and Chansey and saying that's sufficient.

I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinion on these issues, but rather just hoping you guys are able to view the broader implications of your votes. I'd do the same thing if the suspects were Venusaur, Chansey and Registeel. There just seems to be a lack of understanding when it comes to the results of these votes.

It must be hard to do your job. (being completely neutral!?! Seriously I would go insane from not voicing my opininon)

You raise excellent points. I think that our community is well aware of how Froslass can affect the metagame and the implications of banning. Also, Omastar is pretty viable on offense and is a pretty decent lead. (It's a shame it's so slow)

(we've had her for way to many periods) Also, Dugtrio can trapping ability can be cancelled by Shed Shell. Seriously. Around 50% of people use Shed shell on Skarmory. Shed Shell is an extremely viable item on Blissey in the Uber metagame because Wobuffet can easily destroy your blissey.

 

[Conflict]

After some laddering the last week i got finally in the leaderboard and got the chance to test the suspects extensive.

Here are my final thoughts on the suspects:

Dugtrio: Nowhere near BL. Seriously this thing cant just kill anything without getting heavily damaged. Ok there are Chansey and Registeel - but if you are afraid of Duggy just run Shed Shell on them. Chansey wont miss the Lefties that badly and Registeel can run Rest. Anything other slow which can get trapped can just use Priority to weaken/get rid if him or run also Shed Shell or an Resist Berry.

Moltres: Sorry but he is nowhere as powerful as you all claim him to be. He got stopped cold by Milotic, Slowking, Chansey, Regirock (exspecially in SS), Lanturn, Mantine, Umbreon, Altaria, (Arcanine, Azumarill). I dunno but i didnt run any Bulky Water on my Team i laddered with lately and i got never ever swept by an Moltres. Stall stops him with Chansey, Offense is more likely faster and kill him before he can do shit and Balance have just to utilize some Bulky Waters. And SR are up so much times its not funny so you can most likely switch only one Time in. Yeah he can sweep but then you need to prepare everything for him. I swept sometimes with him but only because im running a Team with Spikes+Rapid Spin-Support which also is specialized to lure in and kill Bulky Waters. And although i build my Team around him i swept with him more rarely than with my other sweepers.

Froslass: Im leaning towards BL. This thing is so ridicolous good if you know how to play it. Most likely you will get 2 layer Spikes or 1 Kill+1 layer in the worst cases. Even Antileads (i played Leadlass) cant stop her to lay some Spikes down, when you play her right. Its just so easy to lay down spikes much more easily than for other spikers like omastar/cloyster because of her inferior speed. Her Ghost typing just helps to put her over the top.

Raikou: Also leaning towards BL. I was running a special Set which wins against most of his counters and it was fucking ridicolous how many Teams i swept with him. To much people rely on Registeel/Chansey/Dugtrio to win against him and they just struggle when i used my set. And the LO-Set is condemned hard to stop if you dont run Chansey/Dugtrio/Lanturn.

I apologize for my bad english. I just hope you get my points.

 

[Leman]

By banning raikou and/or moltres, you're banning the best special sweepers in the game, two of the only special sweepers that can break through stall given the right conditions or proper support. Are they really broken enough in every circumstance that it's worth giving up the ability for offense to break through the special side of stall.

Wait. Moltres can't do shit to stall, since most stall teams have a bulky Water + Chansey, neither of which Moltres can break. A lot of them carry Altaria too, don't they? That, and they also work really hard to keep SR up on the field. Moltres really has a feild day against balance, not Stall. If you want an antistall, special Pokemon use NPCroak.

EDIT: When are paragraphs due?

 

[FlareBlitz]

Sorry Jabba, I have to disagree with your assessment. Moltres and Raikou give stall few problems (well, at least until the latter gets Aura Sphere), because Chansey walls the hell out of both of them indefinitely and milotic/slowking/registeel/venusaur do just fine as secondary checks. Their primary strengths are against opposing offensive and balanced teams, which don't typically don't have the ability to switch into Raikou and Moltres without risking the loss of a poke. If anything, Magmortar/Blaziken and Rotom are much better at killing stall...and perhaps the ban of these two (not that I'm voting Moltres BL, but assuming it gets banned) will encourage their use and, by extension, discourage the use of stall. And regarding Froslass, it's true that she's the best offensive spiker in the tier, but again, she cripples offense much more than she cripples stall. Offensive teams typically don't have a "dedicated" spinner like stall does (i.e. a spinner with foresight and rest) which means that Froslass has to do its job literally once to guarantee that Spikes stay on the field for the rest of the match (part of the reason why it's broken). Stall on the other hand can, if its spinner takes too much damage stopping Lass, merely Rest, or get Wishpassed, options which are not available to Offense for the most part. tl;dr These suspects are not stall-killers like Gallade, they mostly impact offensive or balanced teams.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Oh god that wasn't the point of the post at all jesus christ. The point was that people generally have been banning offensive pokemon round in and round out without realizing the effect that may eventually have on the game. I'm not trying to drop this argument to a pedantic level discussing what the pokemon are actually best at doing.

 

[FlareBlitz]

..okay. In that case, I'll just point out that banning broken Pokemon without thinking about what the effects of that ban will be is perfectly acceptable. A broken Pokemon is broken regardless of the impact of its removal.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

But what classifies broken? Most of the people who voted Gallade bl did so because of its effect on stall. Most Pokemon voted on lately have been voted on based on their effect against stall. On the other hand, however, Pokemon are rarely discussed in terms of their effect on neutering offense. When there's so much focus on banning things that may do a bit too well against stall and little focus on the defensive threats that stop a large portion of the game, the metagame may end up becoming a bit unbalanced over the course of a few rounds: case in point today's tour.

 

[PK Gaming]

Can someone give me a break down of the tour? I only saw the final's. (stall vs stall)
So stall dominated?!?

Also I wasn't playing when Gallade was UU. So it was BL because it destroyed stall?
Was it also powerful offensive threat?

 

[jamashawalker]

Can someone give me a break down of the tour? I only saw the final's. (stall vs stall)
So stall dominated?!?

Also I wasn't playing when Gallade was UU. So it was BL because it destroyed stall?
Was it also powerful offensive threat?

heh yeah...pretty much stall's main counter to gallade was spiritomb..and i believe(probably wrong about this) that this was the time choice banded/trick spiritomb was created...to stop gallade with shadowsneak/pursuit

 

[Stagnant]

Of all the suspects... I don't think anyone of them can touch on the effectiveness of Venusaur. He can literally do it all and in fact the metagame revolves around him more than what I think people truly realize. With that said, I do not believe that he is broken however, I do find it interesting that a Pokemon of such a caliber goes untouched discussion-wise in this thread aside from a breif discussion on what to take the 'inevitable' Sleep Powder.

 

[capefeather]

*belated "welcome back" to LR because I didn't want my post to consist only of that*

I think that Jabba brings up a very very good point. A lot of arguments seem to rely on a "switch-and-counter" mechanism. Somehow, if you beat the counters of *insert Pokémon here* you automatically win. I can't help but notice that this predominantly defensive mentality is being used in the context of balanced and offensive teams.

This isn't to say that every suspect on here right now is UU, but it's something to think about. The problem isn't "what will happen if these suspects leave" but "will the metagame be better if these suspects leave". This is the reason for looking at how the banning of a suspect could affect the metagame.

P.S.: The log of the final is larger than my suspect paragraphs O_O but I've yet to write my Froslass paragraphs so...

 

[PK Gaming]

*belated "welcome back" to LR because I didn't want my post to consist only of that*

I think that Jabba brings up a very very good point. A lot of arguments seem to rely on a "switch-and-counter" mechanism. Somehow, if you beat the counters of *insert Pokémon here* you automatically win. I can't help but notice that this predominantly defensive mentality is being used in the context of balanced and offensive teams.

This isn't to say that every suspect on here right now is UU, but it's something to think about. The problem isn't "what will happen if these suspects leave" but "will the metagame be better if these suspects leave". This is the reason for looking at how the banning of a suspect could affect the metagame.

P.S.: The log of the final is larger than my suspect paragraphs O_O but I've yet to write my Froslass paragraphs so...

Yeah it was pretty long. It WAS stall though. How did said team (ladybug's) fair against other teams? (as in offense and balance)

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I think a measure of stallbreaking is important in the metagame. They play an important role in many types of teams by giving them a chance to tear down the big walls that prevent other Pokemon from sweeping. Still, there has to be a balance in the metagame, otherwise offense or defense pulls ahead and it ends up taking an ugly turn for the worse.

Today's tour was pretty ridiculous. The level of stall in the thing was obscene, and the games lasted hundreds of turns with little progress made either way until something finally died due to a series of dozens of predictions. It was pretty much exactly what I feel that UU should not be - a stall-fest. None of the offensive teams made it into the semi-finals, and the last 8 games of the tour were about the most boring I've ever seen in the UU tier. Maybe it was indicative of things to come in UU, which is a bit worrisome, but maybe it's just a trend that will die down with some offensive threats gaining popularity.

The root of the problem might be some of the defensive threats, too, which should be investigated even more closely given that some of these offensive threats might be going away in this round. Chansey stands out as the heart of what makes it all possible, especially because there aren't many things like Scizor or Tyranitar in UU to tear it down and those that do exist can be worn down handily by intelligent switching. Maybe that merits some further discussion at some point, especially with things like Froslass being on the chopping block.

Regardless, though, I agree with Jabba and think we should definitely focus more on the metagame impacts of our votes when we make them. We shouldn't emphasize getting rid of something on principle because it's hard to deal with, rather we should focus on things that break the metagame as we, the collective playerbase, want to shape it. That's ultimately what suspect testing is about, crafting a metagame that's fair, yet diverse, as we see it.

tl;dr, think it through.

 

[Banedon]

Someone post the log ...

 

[GMLW]

Oh god, watching the final battle in the tour was painful. A summary of the battle is: team one sets up rocks, team two sets up rocks, team one spins them away, team two spins them away, repeat these four steps for a very, very long time, Absol sweeps, 6-0.

Stall, while not the most dominant playstyle in UU, is definately the most superior. This is because it is not affected by the suspects anywhere near as much as offense or balance. If you guys don't want this metagame to become a stall fest, why is there so much focus on offensive suspects? Cresselia is the only Pokemon to be banned under the defensive characteristic, even in OU except for Deoxys-D, who I don't think was even tested, I only say this because it fits this characteristic the best. So if you guys are complaining about stall, start focusing more on defensive threats.

EDIT @Banedon: Damn, I should've saved that log. Not sure why I didn't. Anyway, I gave a summary in this post. The funny part was the Absol was meant to be defensive, and didn't have any boosts.

 

[shrang]

Neutrality of people running the game blah blah blah. I just want to make a point after watching this past tour where stall clearly dominated the game. The voters are going extremely banheavy on offensive threats while not understanding the implications these votes have on the balance of the game. I just want to enlighten you all on the implications of banning the 4 suspects so you guys fully understand what it will do to the game.

By banning froslass, you are in turn banning the best offensive spiker in the UU metagame, while stall also uses froslass, they can still resort to running omastar if need be. So essentially you're depriving offense of the ability to set spikes up, making sweeps for offensive pokemon harder.

By banning raikou and/or moltres, you're banning the best special sweepers in the game, two of the only special sweepers that can break through stall given the right conditions or proper support. Are they really broken enough in every circumstance that it's worth giving up the ability for offense to break through the special side of stall.

By banning dugtrio, you're banning a pokemon that does what? Traps two stall Pokemon? Really? Is anything more than guaranteeing one kill against stall really that bad? It's a good Pokemon in its own right, but from what I've been seeing, people are generally focusing on its ability to trap and kill Registeel and Chansey and saying that's sufficient.

I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinion on these issues, but rather just hoping you guys are able to view the broader implications of your votes. I'd do the same thing if the suspects were Venusaur, Chansey and Registeel. There just seems to be a lack of understanding when it comes to the results of these votes.

I completely salute this post, Jabba, well said. However, I do think that you have the power to just not let a Pokemon become a Suspect in the first place (At least I hope you do). Yes, it might have received a whole ton of votes, but if it's pretty clear that it's not broken (READ: Dugtrio), don't make it a Suspect. Have the courage to treat bull as it is!!

 

[FlareBlitz]

Ultimately, offensive threats tend to get more attention because we've had Pokemon in the tier that can easily sweep an entire opponent's team with very little support, while we've yet to have a defensive Pokemon that can wall an entire team with little support (barring Hippie Chick Cresselia, which was rightly booted). Like it or not, the way the Characteristics of an Uber is worded, offensive suspects will always be scrutinized more heavily than defensive ones. All that still has no bearing on this current rounding of voting because both Moltres and Raikou are primarily effective against other Offensive teams, not Stall. Want to increase the viability of Offense? Vote the fuckers out. I emphasize this because I know this megathread easily influences the "silent majority" as it were, and I don't want anyone getting the wrong idea about the metagame becoming a stallish wankfest if Kou/Lass leave.

 

[ToF]

Don't complain that the UU tour was a stallfest, considering that this metagame was created by you, the voters. I hope most of you understand now that you aren't just suppose to think in the moment when making these votes, but rather at the larger picture possibly down the road. Raikou, Moltres, and especially Dugtrio as suspects, how pathetic lol. Coming from a stall player, I think it means a lot when I say that the Dugtrio nominations are ridiculous despite the fact that its banishment would help me out significantly.

Point is, you guys created this stallfest by your shortsighted views and nominations; deal with it.

Edit: Raikou as a suspect now is just atrocious. If you guys want to give it the boot because of Aura Sphere in the future, then wait on the damn nomination until it gets it.

 

[franky]

From what I'm understanding from this recent conversation, people are afraid of stall being too powerful if we are too ban happy with removing offensive-based Pokemon. The fact of the matter is, there are still a wide array of equally dangerous offensive threats like Raikou and Moltres. The future of the metagame is at the hands of the voters now; vote BL or UU on the suspects accordingly. Froslass is going without question; however, the major concerns are Dugtrio, Moltres, and Raikou.

I personally believe that Moltres and Raikou are staying in UU, or should stay in UU. My constant mindset for the process has always been support before offense. Raikou and Moltres are powerful for sure, but they often need support to actually excel meaning they are never sweeping by themselves. Consequently, Froslass and Dugtrio should be the ones who should leave the tier since they provide both Raikou and Moltres with easier sweeps. A dream metagame would be this current metagame minus Dugtrio and Froslass. It really boils down to what the voters want, hopefully I convinced people to vote accordingly.

 

[PK Gaming]

I don't understand remotely. The tour didn't limit the suspects. I'm pretty sure Raikou
and Moltres would do nothing to said stall team. (Unless Raikou was Restalk) I think we're freaking over nothing.

And all of this talk about banning Raikou/Moltres would turn this tier into a stall fest.
Personally I feel that Froslass and Raikou have got to go, but I have next to no problems with Moltres in UU.

(that's another can of worms)

 

[Flamewheeler]

Heh, sorry to break all of this up, but ummm guys, Magmortar needs more love. It's a beast!

 

[Banedon]

Oh god, watching the final battle in the tour was painful. A summary of the battle is: team one sets up rocks, team two sets up rocks, team one spins them away, team two spins them away, repeat these four steps for a very, very long time, Absol sweeps, 6-0.

EDIT @Banedon: Damn, I should've saved that log. Not sure why I didn't. Anyway, I gave a summary in this post. The funny part was the Absol was meant to be defensive, and didn't have any boosts.

Someone post the log ...

And I wonder, does this prove that spinning is easy (and, by extension, that Froslass isn't BL)? Very strange to see an Absol who's not a full-out sweeper or even a Baton Pass version, too.

 

[GMLW]

Neither teams had Froslass, both teams had Rotom as a spin blocker. And spinning wasn't easy due to the Rotoms, it's just that both teams spinned a lot so some of them had to have worked. There were plenty of blocked spins.

And the log is way too long to post anyway. And boring. Not even the end was exciting since the Absol sweep was just way too easy. The battle as a whole was worse than watching paint dry, yet it was impossible to stop watching. Pure torture.

 

[LoveHate]

First off I think it is rediculous to remove Dugtrio as he is a key oppenent to Stall. Do you I think it will become a stallfest without them no. However Dugtrio although powerful does not deserve to go. I find the only true culprit to be spikes that are supplied by Frosslass. Raikou I am honestly on the fence about. While Moltres has enough flaws to be UU in my opinion.

Also has anyone noticed an increased number of technitops?

 

[Bluewind]

Of all the suspects... I don't think anyone of them can touch on the effectiveness of Venusaur. He can literally do it all and in fact the metagame revolves around him more than what I think people truly realize. With that said, I do not believe that he is broken however, I do find it interesting that a Pokemon of such a caliber goes untouched discussion-wise in this thread aside from a breif discussion on what to take the 'inevitable' Sleep Powder.

The metagame revolves even more around Scizor in OU (really, HP Fire Latias, Babiri Tar, HP Fire Celebi and a long list of other things) and he's nowhere near broken.

Oh, and the day Dugtrio is BL, I'll be nominating Magikarp.