np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head

[Heysup]

Retesting BL Pokemon. After so much time has passed and different Pokemon entering and leaving the tier, shouldn't there be retesting of previous BL. Have players give a blind vote on each BL Pokemon and then test the ones that pass. Notable Pokemon being, well I guess just Crobat. I believe that we were a bit 'immature' yet at that voting stage.

With all due respect we have experienced a taste of this occurring because of that ill-timed policy, and what happened was hugely counterproductive to achieving our goal of having a balanced metagame. I mean let's face it: we'll likely eventually end up banning Raikou and Froslass again, but now we're just keeping them in because they are (apparently) not broken at this very moment. It kind of feels like stalling, but whatever.

This will probably be a much better plan once the metagame is settled (which could be now, but I doubt it).

 

[Erazor]

Which of the BL pokemon merit retesting exactly?

(note: I'm assuming that Cress and P-Z are banned)

Gallade has been voted BL twice now. It still rapes stall. This is the same metagame it was banned from.

Honchkrow isn't likely to be any less broken since this is essentially the same metagame that it was banned in, minus Gallade.

Yanmega still fucks up offense, and still has only 3 safe switch ins. Yes I know Raikou has come down since then but still barely checks it.

Shaymin still rapes the metagame. It beats ... pretty much everything, and has reliable recovery to boot. Yes, Alakazam can revenge it now. That's not enough to merit a retest. Dugtrio can't beat it even when trapped, unless Stone Edge crits.

You can't honestly be asking us to unban Staraptor. 2HKO everything except max/max+ Rotom with 2 moves? Yes, new addition Donphan is 2HKOed by Return(and can be OHKOed by Brave Bird assuming Spikes and SR). Wait, Rhyperior can stand up to it. So it's got one more check. Alakazam can revenge it now, but that's hardly enough to merit retesting.

Abomasnow, no way. Hail is pissing off as it is, do we really need a permanent hail pokemon which can actually hold its own in battle?

Crobat would actually be interesting... Rhyperior has come down now to rape it, Scarf Alakazam can revenge it...but apart from that the metagame hasn't changed much from when it was banned.

Long story short, we don't need to retest BL pokemon, except maybe Crobat, for some time.

 

[Darkvirus]

Crobat would actually be interesting... Rhyperior has come down now to rape it, Scarf Alakazam can revenge it...but apart from that the metagame hasn't changed much from when it was banned.

1 RAin teams are strong enough without crobat back to set it up and 2ndy ryporior cant swithc in unless it wants to lose 1/2 its health to super/hyper ( i cant remeber)fang

 

[PK Gaming]

I'd like to know, why was Crobat banned in the first place?

Excuse me if I come across as patronizing here, but this question honestly merits it...the reasoning for excluding OU Pokemon from UU is that this is not OU. If OU Pokemon were allowed in UU, you would have to contend with Salamence, Gyarados, Lucario....in other words, it would be Standard. It isn't like there are a given pool of Pokemon that are permanently UU and that Pokemon can be banned by rising too high in usage. The whole UU tier is defined by the fact that the Pokemon in it are not used enough in Standard to be OU. There is literally no way of playing UU that will or even could include allowing OU Pokemon in it. That would be inherently a contradiction.

I think he was asking for some OU pokemon that are obviously not broken in UU to be re-allowed.
To be fair, that would overcomplicate the already a fantastic system. Sure, there are a few bugs (such as a few OU pokemon that would be fine in UU never being allowed there)

But that's a price to pay for a desirable metagame,.

 

[Erazor]

I'd like to know, why was Crobat banned in the first place?

Um, long story short, it was able to check a ridiculous amount of the metagame due to its high speed, Taunt, Roost, Brave Bird, and good defenses. Even defensive behemoths like Registeel - who technically walls Crobat - actually lost to it due to Taunt + Roost outstalling. Heysup actually went as far as to use Zap Cannon on Registeel to say "fuck you, Crobat". It was deemed too good for the tier and banned.

I dunno if reach or Jabba keep the old voting paragraphs, but you can ask them to post my Crobat paragraph if they have it still. You could also look at the old nomination and discussion threads.

 

[Banedon]

Erazor you have more UU experience than me (especially considering I didn't play during the Staraptor / Yanmega / Shaymin / Crobat etc tests), so ask you - what do you think will happen if all the BL Pokemon dropped to UU at the same time? That is, what do you think a BL metagame would be like, and would it be enjoyable?

 

[capefeather]

Tentacruel will immediately replace milotic in bulky water department.

The main reason I (and probably most others) opted for Milotic instead of, say, Lanturn is the neutrality to Earthquake. Tentacruel doesn't have this.

I don't think we should retest BLs until UU becomes a No Suspects zone. I stand by this even with Generation V on the horizon.

 

[Stagnant]

^

I honestly hope that doesn't happen. Suspects, unfortunately, is what keeps UU interesting. Their slight 'overpoweredness' forces people to creative with their teams, with the exception of some (Yanmega, Staraptor).

 

[Erazor]

Erazor you have more UU experience than me (especially considering I didn't play during the Staraptor / Yanmega / Shaymin / Crobat etc tests), so ask you - what do you think will happen if all the BL Pokemon dropped to UU at the same time? That is, what do you think a BL metagame would be like, and would it be enjoyable?

It would be a fuckfest. Maybe some of the threats would check each other, like Staraptor ---> Gallade, but it would still be a gang of broken mons shitting all over the metagame. I can just see Staraptor 2HKOing everything in sight(it actually did this in the first ever new UU metagame).

 

[GMLW]

I mean let's face it: we'll likely eventually end up banning Raikou and Froslass again, but now we're just keeping them in because they are (apparently) not broken at this very moment. It kind of feels like stalling, but whatever.

I thought that they can't be nominated again unless under special circumstances.


Besides, Raikou isn't broken since it can be checked by plenty of Pokemon. Chansey and Registeel completely shut it down. Dugtrio can survive an unboosted Hidden Power with minor Sp. Def investment (unless Raikou is holding Life Orb, which less than a third do) and OHKO. Even if Raikou Calm Minds while its sub is broken, Dugtrio outspeeds and kills it. Same cicumstances if it switches into an attack or a Calm Mind. Band Hitmonlee can survive a +1 Thunderbolt unless Life Orb and OHKO back. Scarf Hitmonlee can 1-2HKO, but even if it doesn't OHKO, it still survives +1 Thunderbolt and outspeeds thanks to Scarf

 

[ToF]

I think Crobat would be an interesting retest, I would be in support of one. Looking back, it looks 'less broken' than say the other things that have been banned recently (Cresselia and Porygon-Z). I think the addition of Rhyperior, Donphan, and the rise in usage of more prominent offensive threats like Moltres make Crobat's job as an annoying staller harder.

 

[GMLW]

While I wasn't here when Crobat was still UU, I know that it isn't only limited to stalling. It has decent Attack and Sp. Atk and a good movepool, allowing it to run a good mixed set. It also gets Nasty Plot, and so can run a sweeper set. Or it can lead, with an extremely speedy Taunt, Roost to recover damage, U-Turn to get out, and Inner Focus to beat Ambipom. Although I would like to actually battle with Crobat instead of just theorymoning to see if it really is broken.

 

[ToF]

While I wasn't here when Crobat was still UU, I know that it isn't only limited to stalling. It has decent Attack and Sp. Atk and a good movepool, allowing it to run a good mixed set. It also gets Nasty Plot, and so can run a sweeper set. Or it can lead, with an extremely speedy Taunt, Roost to recover damage, U-Turn to get out, and Inner Focus to beat Ambipom. Although I would like to actually battle with Crobat instead of just theorymoning to see if it really is broken.

Wrong. Crobat always ran an almost guaranteed 4 moves of Roost, Taunt, U-Turn, and Brave Bird. Using Crobat in any other way was limiting yourself to not using its proper abilities. Looking at it now though, Crobat's Brave Bird is nothing compared to that of Honchkrow, which is why I would support a retest. There is tremendous difference between both Pokemon, and Crobat was tested way before Honch got Brave Bird, meaning it might be worthwhile for a retest (thanks for that point stellar!!!!).

 

[Delko]

I think Crobat would be a bit dangerous with Nasty Plot and Super Fang in it moveset, not to mention his great speed and resistance to common priority moves.

 

[FlareBlitz]

I would be in support of retesting Crobat and possibly Shaymin. I wasn't really playing during the Crobat meta, so I can't comment on why it was banned, and it would be cool to gauge its impact on the metagame myself. I will say that it would make a fantastic addition to the tier if it turns out to not be broken; I'd love to have it on my rain team, for one thing, and I've always been a fan of Nasty Plot Crobat. Same with Shaymin, although I can see how Seed Flare, high speed, natural bulk, and virtual immunity to status can be a bit much.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Wrong. Crobat always ran an almost guaranteed 4 moves of Roost, Taunt, U-Turn, and Brave Bird.

I remember seeing quite a few shufflers with Sub and Whirlwind, as well as the odd Toxic staller. There were some Sunny Day / Rain Dance leads around too.

As much as I disagreed with Crobat's initial banishment, I think we should take any possible consideration towards re-testing with extreme caution. No matter what your opinion on Crobat, it cannot be denied that its status was very close to BL at best, and unlike say Raikou, I think changes have been more in its favor rather than a hindrance. The additions of Super Fang to its movepool and Dugtrio to UU are HUGE bonuses for Crobat, which IMO far outweigh the presence of Rhyperior and Head Smash Aggron (which I think are the only notable negatives as far as Crobat is concerned, although I might be overlooking something). Just something to think about anyway.

 

[GMLW]

Well, we could retest it, but if it turns out to be extremely broken, we can put right back into BL, instead of waiting for testing to be over.

 

[capefeather]

I honestly hope that doesn't happen. Suspects, unfortunately, is what keeps UU interesting. Their slight 'overpoweredness' forces people to creative with their teams, with the exception of some (Yanmega, Staraptor).

...Which is exactly why BL retests could be considered when that happens.

EDIT: Changed "should" to "could" because that's what I meant. Also, I don't think that anyone's suggesting that we drop stuff down willy-nilly. There would have to be a strict process for this that demands considerable evidence that the BL would likely not be broken if dropped down into the "stable" metagame.

Also, I'm totally sigging that Tentacruel quote from earlier.

 

[Stellar]

I completely disagree with that. I'm pretty sure we are aiming for a stable metagame here. We are not trying to keep the game "interesting" by continuously adding suspects. The suspects would be retested because we believe they would not unbalance the metagame, not because they keep things interesting. I personally believe the banned suspects should stay where they are. There is no sense in moving backwards at this point.

 

[FlareBlitz]

We dropped down a group of suspects a while back that are arguably more broken than Crobat was. We based that decision on the fact that, at the time, their vote was contentious...even though the metagame has changed drastically from that point. Honestly, I don't see why we can't apply expert opinion to the current list of BL Pokes and do another drop down for the ones that may not be broken (i.e. Crobat) just to add more balanced Pokemon to the metagame. Honestly, it's times like this I wish we had a UU Suspect ladder, although I can understand the logistics behind why we don't.

 

[GMLW]

While it would be fun to try out Crobat, I guess it would be more important to have a stable metagame. Only problem is only stable for two months, then a month of unstability, then another two (because drops occur every three months and the suspect tests take about a month).

EDIT: Actually, from looking at the time difference between last mega-thread and this mega-thread, we actually have one month of stability, then two months of instability, then one month of stability, etc.

 

[Heysup]

I completely disagree with that. I'm pretty sure we are aiming for a stable metagame here. We are not trying to keep the game "interesting" by continuously adding suspects. The suspects would be retested because we believe they would not unbalance the metagame, not because they keep things interesting. I personally believe the banned suspects should stay where they are. There is no sense in moving backwards at this point.

Stellar hit the nail right on the head here. Why are people so interesting in going backwards? Is it too much to ask to trust the suspect voters who voted them BL? Even logically when you look at how difficult it is to get people to vote something BL (read: Froslass, Raikou), the fact that these Pokemon were voted BL is quite the statement.

 

[GMLW]

Stellar hit the nail right on the head here. Why are people so interesting in going backwards? Is it too much to ask to trust the suspect voters who voted them BL? Even logically when you look at how difficult it is to get people to vote something BL (read: Froslass, Raikou), the fact that these Pokemon were voted BL is quite the statement.

Do I really have to keep repeating myself? Have you read any of my reasons why Raikou isn't broken? I've looked at your reasons why Raikou is broken, and I respect your opinion, but you just say "Raikou is broken," you don't say "Raikou is broken in my opinion."

And the opinion thing is really your problem. You complain that people are dumb and lazy because they didn't vote out what you thought was broken. Has it occured to you that some people don't think these Pokemon are broken? They have been voted UU twice, Froslass wasn't even a suspect, so you have to realize that your opinion is not a fact, nor is it the same as other people's opinions.

I know you have more knowledge of the UU metagame than me, and that this will turn into a flame war between you and me, but you really are acting quite arrogant.

 

[Stellar]

I really dislike your use of "Froslass wasn't even a suspect" as an argument. While it may very well be true, I have a sneaking suspicion that the rushed voting process was to blame for that.

Also, anything that Heysup writes is obviously his opinion. He isn't writing your opinion, or ToF's opinion, or Deklo's opinion; he's writing his own. You aren't required to take his word as fact. He's simply stating what he believes in a declarative manner. Forceful arguments aren't something to look down upon and should not be confused with arrogance.

 

[SJCrew]

Is anyone not noticing that with the advent of suspect additions and losses, we're back to what was essentially the same metagame before Crobat left? Bringing it back isn't going to prove anything, other than the fact that UU players are whiny and indecisive (and let's face it, we are).

We haven't even transitioned to the post-Cress and PZ metagame, and with many players still being unsure on the prospect of Froslass and Raikou, I'd give it a good long while before we start talking about making changes.