np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head

[Bluewind]

Just posting to say that friends don't let friends ladder at 3 in the morning, especially not after said friend is experiencing a hax streak of truly biblical proportions...HR! Bluewind! Thund! Others! I hate you all for not being there for me ;__;

So, I've been trying out Skunktank as a scarfer and...it's fantastic. Any thoughts?

It was 1:30 in the morning! I had to sleep!!

And regarding Skuntank, a fast explosion + a fast pursuit to rid yourself of Alakazam sounds sexy. What moveset are you using on it, Crunch/ Explosion/ Pursuit/ Poison Jab?

It really is quite ridiculous. But hey I shouldn't complain cause it's free wins. Torterra Rock Slides on Milotic as it switches into Moltres. Gets em every time.

Loving the sig btw.

Knowing your luck the way I do I suppose it misses a lot though =x

And the sig is a courtesy of Flare's matches xD

 

[GMLW]

Can someone explain why Raikou should be BL when it has so many nice counters and checks? Chansey and Registeel wall it so easily and can do so multiple times. Steelix, Clefable, Regirock and Venasaur also do really good with certain EV investments. In addition, multiple Pokemon can check it depending on Raikou's HP type: Gastrodon, Quagsire, Torterra, Rhyperior and Nidoqueen all hit hard with SE Earthquakes as long as Raikou doesn't carry the hidden Power that they're weak to (and its not THAT hard to find out). And finally, SD Sceptile and Alakazam both outspeed and hit Raikou with Earthquake/Encore. And Dugtrio comes in on a CM/Thunderbolt and instantly wins.

No, I didn't do calcs for any of those, but don't nag at me. They all have the ability to stop/slow down Raikou's sweep, which is all you really need to do in a fast metagame like this one. There's 2 full counters, and so many checks, that a Raikou sweep just seems impossible right now. So regardless if someone tries to counter this post, the sheer volume of pokemon makes it not matter, and Raikou has been voted UU twice already, so it doesn't really matter.

Actually, I did calcs for my essay last round. :D

Registeel, Chansey, Clefable, Umbreon, and others stop it cold. Steelix stops ~92% of them. Lanturn, Quagsire, and Gastrodon stop ~50% of them. Grass-types stop ~20% iirc. Scarf Hitmonlee outspeeds and 1-2HKO's with Earthquake while surviving a +1 Thunderbolt if it 2HKO's. Band Hitmonlee always OHKO's, and still survives the Thunderbolt since it no longer outspeeds. Rhyperior survives an unboosted HP Ice and OHKO's. Donphan survives any unboosted Hidden Power and OHKO's. With minor Sp. Def investment, Dugtrio survives an unboosted Hidden Power, and because it outspeeds and OHKO's, it will always win if it comes in on Raikou's first move. Aggron can survive an unboosted Thunderbolt and OHKO with Head Smash.

I'm sure there were more, but I deleted my essay and I can't remember.

And yeah, it's already been voted UU twice on its sweeping capabilities, and good luck proving it BL with its Defensive set.

 

[ZandgaiaX]

@Lonewolf9196, may I add that some teams don't have anyway of the pokemon mentioned with higher than 50%.

Also, Raikou will (if a sub is up, otherwise if it manages to outspeed) take out quite some hp of most. (And everybody knows Chansey sucks btw >.>)

 

[Delko]

I'm wondering how Lanturn can stop Raikou 50% of the time. Toxic stall perhaps?

 

[GMLW]

@Zandgaia

It isn't about how much HP it takes away, it's about whether or not Raikou is dead. I can just Wish-pass if it loses HP.

It also doesn't matter if they aren't used much. That's actually helpful, because people won't prepare for it.

Raikou normally won't have a sub up since those Pokemon are revenge killers.

How does Chansey suck? Sure, it can't touch Subbing Ghosts, but it still stops every special sweeper in its tracks. Moltres causing you trouble? Send in Chansey. Specs Gorebyss threatening a sweep? Send in Chansey, which also stalls out more turns of rain. So, with this information, what do you do if a Raikou is boosting up? Send in Chansey, break its subs with Seismic Toss, and laugh as you stall away its Thunderbolts with Wish and/or Thunder Wave them if they're stupid enough to not put a sub back up.


@Delko

Approximately 50% of Raikou run HP Ice. What the fuck is Raikou supposed to do to Lanturn with HP Ice? And yes, Lanturn can Toxic it or TWave it. Sure, I guess it takes a lot of prediction to beat Raikou with Lanturn, and if it doesn't have HP Grass Quagsire or Gastrodon would be better since they have recovery and use physical moves, but with smart prediction, Lanturn can get some status in on Raikou.

 

[Delko]

@Delko

Approximately 50% of Raikou run HP Ice. What the fuck is Raikou supposed to do to Lanturn with HP Ice? And yes, Lanturn can Toxic it or TWave it.

+6 HP ice does 38.7% - 45.6% to specially defensive Lanturn, which is a clear 3HKO so with Substitute in his moves Raikou will always win. If Raikou doesn't have Substitute, then Laturn will win.

 

[PK Gaming]

I actually think Raikou is borderline material. Sure it has a few (ie 2 hard counters: Steelix and Chansey) But the rest are *work around-able* at best.

Furthermore, it's easy for Raikou to be used endgame as a cleaner (destroying teams with unopposed fury) Dugtrio can also trap a lot of Raikou's counters making his life easier.

My other beefs with him include: Setting up on a large amount of sweepers outclassing 2 of my favorite pokemon. (Raichu and Manetric) and being a general bitch.

Hide

My main beef against Raikou is that he makes UU more centralized around him. I don't want to be forced to use Chansey, Dugtrio, Registeel etc just to deal with him. Sure it applies to Moltres, but Moltres has
A. Nasty SR weakness
B. Already considered a problem :P

I would definetely enjoy the metagame without Raikou

 

[Erazor]

Played a lot over the last 2 days, and there are so many Cloyster leads! I've been running a Regisrock lead myself. He's awesome, OHKOing Ambipom, and making sure Cloyster and Froslass get max. 2 layers of spikes. Fails against Omastar and Kabutops leads, but w/e...

Froslass still stands out as the only suspect IMO, seeing as Raikou needs "special circumstances". Can I state discovery of the Life Orb set as special circumstances? Because that thing is beastly! Still loses to Dugtrio, Chansey, and maybe Steelix, but it still rapes a lot of the meta. And of course, Sub CM is as good as ever.

Registeel actually takes a lot from LO Thunderbolt, ~32% iirc. So with Spikes/SR, Regi's not going to enjoy switching in repeatedly.

Moltres hasn't been anywhere near overwhelming for me, but then my whole team is either faster than it, runs priority, or is called Regirock.

 

[PK Gaming]

Played a lot over the last 2 days, and there are so many Cloyster leads! I've been running a Regisrock lead myself. He's awesome, OHKOing Ambipom, and making sure Cloyster and Froslass get max. 2 layers of spikes. Fails against Omastar and Kabutops leads, but w/e...

Froslass still stands out as the only suspect IMO, seeing as Raikou needs "special circumstances". Can I state discovery of the Life Orb set as special circumstances? Because that thing is beastly! Still loses to Dugtrio, Chansey, and maybe Steelix, but it still rapes a lot of the meta. And of course, Sub CM is as good as ever.

Registeel actually takes a lot from LO Thunderbolt, ~32% iirc. So with Spikes/SR, Regi's not going to enjoy switching in repeatedly.

Moltres hasn't been anywhere near overwhelming for me, but then my whole team is either faster than it, runs priority, or is called Regirock.

Cloyster leads blah blah blah. Anyway, Omastar leads rock, and i'm GLAD they aren't used that often.

About Raikou:
Exactly my point. He's to strong for this metagame and his *checks* and counters can be worked around. It's like 5% of the metagame can stop him and the rest can't do squat once he gets going.

He reminds me of a cross between Swellow (without the timer) and Cresselia (WITH the speed)

 

[MSB]

Raikou's never been a problem for me. Probably because I run SD Sceptile(who outspeeds and lands an EQ) on almost all of my teams, but still.

And is it wrong that I'm hating Omastar leads more than Froslass leads as of now? Also, speaking of leads, where the hell did Ambi go? I'm barely seeing any. >_>

 

[dbcb]

only use ambipom leads have IMO is its fast taunt and the ability to set up weather. i will lead with it on my sunny day team if i am using moltres to keep rocks off.

fake out is becoming useless... it just allows a free switch to any bulky rock, steel, or ghost type. I realy don't want to allow aggron a free switch to head smash or rhyperior a free switch to rhyperior to stone edge. In fact, i dont even run it the few times i use ambipom anymore. if i see a switch from opponents expecting fake out, im low kicking.

(once again, wifi only i dont play shoddy anymore)

 

[GMLW]

I wish I still had my essay about Raikou.

Counters/Checks
Quagsire*
Gastrodon*
Clefable
Chansey
Umbreon
Steelix*
Registeel
Venusaur*
Torterra*
Tangrowth*
Leafeon*
Sceptile*
Other Grass-types*
Hitmonlee
Dugtrio
Donphan
Rhyperior*
Aggron
Spikes**
Claydol
Status**
Strong priority users

*Depends on the Hidden Power type
**Checks Raikou indirectly


@Erazor

I can see a Life Orb set being powerful, but it seems easier to check than the SubCM set. It doesn't have a sub to protect it from status, which will be a significant problem in the long run. Not to mention that Life Orb recoil + Spikes adds up very quickly and makes revenge killing it a snap. It's kind of like a mini Deoxys-A: dies quickly, but causes hell before it does.

 

[mtr]

The general abundance of Froslass leads in the current metagame makes Ambipom kinda useless, since it needs to use Payback to deal with Froslass. Having Payback means forgoing the ever-so-useful Taunt, which is necessary to shut down bulkier leads such as Registeel. Basically, Ambipom really suffers from four-moveslot-syndrome, and that combined with the inability to set up entry hazards makes it a mediocre lead IMO compared to Froslass and Registeel.

EDIT: forgot that Ambipom outspeeds Froslass, lol. Still, though, the main problem with Ambipom is that it can't set up any hazards: it WAS a sort of anti-lead, but isn't any more with stuff like Registeel running around.

 

[PK Gaming]

My responses are assuming standard Raikou with HP Grass and Extra Sensory

I wish I still had my essay about Raikou.

Counters/Checks
Quagsire* Killed by HP Grass
Gastrodon*Killed by HP Grass
Clefable*COUNTERED
Chansey*COUNTERED
Umbreon*How so? 1+ LO Thunderbolt is a 3HKO. Assuming it's behind a sub, Raikou can easily take Umbreon down.
Steelix* COUNTERED
Registeel COUNTERED...twice at the least. Residual damage and a such
Venusaur*KilledExtra Sensory
Torterra* COUNTERED, but if I had HP Ice you would be killed
Tangrowth*Again see the above. Also Extra Sensory does a sizable chunk. 2HKO
Leafeon* Same case as tangrowth
Sceptile* Same case as leafeon
Other Grass-types* The ones with poor SpD are owned, and if Raikou runs HP ice your forked
Hitmonlee*Choice Scarf Varients only. If he's behind a sub you lose
Dugtrio * Revenge KO only
Donphan *owned if behind a sub
Rhyperior*OHKO by HP Grass
Aggron*OHKO by 1+ T-bolt
Spikes**Applicable to all
Claydol*Will barely hurt Raikou with enough CMs. Hp Grass
Status** Aplicable to all
Strong priority users* See above

*Depends on the Hidden Power type
**Checks Raikou indirectly

I rest my case

 

[dbcb]

The general abundance of Froslass leads in the current metagame makes Ambipom kinda useless, since it needs to use Payback to deal with Froslass. Having Payback means forgoing the ever-so-useful Taunt, which is necessary to shut down bulkier leads such as Registeel. Basically, Ambipom really suffers from four-moveslot-syndrome, and that combined with the inability to set up entry hazards makes it a mediocre lead IMO compared to Froslass and Registeel.

ambipom just taunts standard suicide lead frosslass preventing it from doing its job. If frosslass is dumb enough to stay in and not switch immediately (which it should), ice beam wont ohko and then ambipom uturns out, breaking its sash or scouting the switch.

frosslass isn't ambipoms problem IMO

 

[PK Gaming]

The general abundance of Froslass leads in the current metagame makes Ambipom kinda useless, since it needs to use Payback to deal with Froslass. Having Payback means forgoing the ever-so-useful Taunt, which is necessary to shut down bulkier leads such as Registeel. Basically, Ambipom really suffers from four-moveslot-syndrome, and that combined with the inability to set up entry hazards makes it a mediocre lead IMO compared to Froslass and Registeel.

You forgot that Amibpom himself shuts down Froslass with Taunt. He can then pursuit.

Froslass is better left outside of lead position imo.

 

[dbcb]

Assuming LO, timid, hp grass, extrasensory, tb, cm

and i will just assume no entry hazards even though we should be assuming SR or at least 2 layers of spikes these days

I wish I still had my essay about Raikou.


Quagsire: OHKO'd
Gastrodon: OHKO'd

Clefable: assuming wish stalling set I guess... takes 37.6% - 44.4% from TB. so if raikou tbolts on the switch and then again... ouch

Chansey: countered
Umbreon: curse set takes 32.2% - 38.3% from tbolt
Steelix: countered
Registeel: countered

Venusaur: extrasensory does 41.2% - 48.9% to special wall venusaur.
Torterra: counters the set

Tangrowth: TB does 39.9% - 46.8% to standards mojobo set. extrasensory does more

Leafeon: pretty much the same as above

Sceptile: takes 37.2% - 44.3% from tbolt switching in
Other Grass-types: only special defense versions can do anything

Hitmonlee: needs a scarf, without extrasensory ohkos. tbolt does 68.1% - 80.5% on teh switch

Dugtrio: revenge kill or switch in on tbolt.

Donphan: takes 82.6% - 97.6% from hp grass
Rhyperior: HP grass ohkos
Aggron: tbolt ohkos
Spikes: works both ways.
Claydol: 48.8% - 57.4% from hp grass
Status
Strong priority users: revenge kill only

 

[Stagnant]

What are the best answers to Venusaur?

 

[PK Gaming]

What are the best answers to Venusaur?

It depends on the set. Support Venusaur is walled by Registeel a d Moltres.

Physical varients are also walled by Moltres and Tangrowth.
Having some sleep fodder ciuldn't hurt.

Aktaria is a fantastic general counter.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

A sleep absorber and then a switch to Altaria, Moltres ect. Really with Venusaur everywhere, a sleep absorber is practically required. I've even seriously considered using Noctowl to counter Venusaur.

 

[Thund91]

Knowing your luck the way I do I suppose it misses a lot though =x

Which is exactly why I made the switch from Stone Edge to Rock Slide. =P

 

[Lil Niglet]

My responses are assuming standard Raikou with HP Grass and Extra Sensory



I rest my case

It sounds like you are using five moves: Thunderbolt, CM, HP grass, Sub, and Extrasensory. Drop one and Raikou is countered by much more.

 

[GMLW]

Guys, the Life Orb set is not Raikou's standard set. The on-site analysis is geared towards OU. The SubCM set is the standard for UU.

Assuming LO, timid, hp grass, extrasensory, tb, cm

I was talking about Lefties, Timid, TBolt, CM, Sub, HP Ice/Grass/Water.



@PK Gaming

First of all, it seems as if you are implying that the Raikou in question has CM, Sub, TBolt, HP Grass, HP Ice, and Extrasensory. I would very much like to see this Raikou with six moves. I'm talking about the SubCM set, the most used Raikou set, so Extrasensory and Life Orb are out of the question. You also say "killed by HP Grass" and "killed by HP Ice," clearly ignoring the fact that I said certain Pokemon can counter depending on the Hidden Power type which is not that difficult to figure out. You say that only Scarf Hitmonlee wins, yet Band Hitmonlee can survive a +1 Thunderbolt and OHKO. You also say Dugtrio can only revenge kill it. This is not true. The moment you see Raikou, switch to Dugtrio, and assuming no entry hazards, you will always win as long as you run the minor Sp. Def investment that Dugtrio doesn't even need in the other stats. I also forgot to mention that if you have a Swellow that has already activated its orb, it OHKO's with Facade.

I can also do this:

I actually think Raikou is borderline material. Sure it has a few (ie 2 hard counters: Steelix and Chansey) But the rest are *work around-able* at best.

Furthermore, it's easy for Raikou to be used endgame as a cleaner (destroying teams with unopposed fury) Dugtrio can also trap a lot of Raikou's counters making his life easier.

I actually think Houndoom is borderline material. Sure it has a few (ie 2 hard counters: Regirock and Chansey) But the rest are *work around-able* at best.

Furthermore, it's easy for Houndoom to be used endgame as a cleaner (destroying teams with unopposed fury) Dugtrio can also trap a lot of Houndoom's counters making his life easier.

And I can do this:

About Raikou:
Exactly my point. He's to strong for this metagame and his *checks* and counters can be worked around. It's like 5% of the metagame can stop him and the rest can't do squat once he gets going.

About Swellow:
Exactly my point. He's to strong for this metagame and his *checks* and counters can be worked around. It's like 5% of the metagame can stop him and the rest can't do squat once he gets going.

About Scyther:
Exactly my point. He's to strong for this metagame and his *checks* and counters can be worked around. It's like 5% of the metagame can stop him and the rest can't do squat once he gets going.

About Absol:
Exactly my point. He's to strong for this metagame and his *checks* and counters can be worked around. It's like 5% of the metagame can stop him and the rest can't do squat once he gets going.

About Torterra:
Exactly my point. He's to strong for this metagame and his *checks* and counters can be worked around. It's like 5% of the metagame can stop him and the rest can't do squat once he gets going.

About Feraligatr:
Exactly my point. He's to strong for this metagame and his *checks* and counters can be worked around. It's like 5% of the metagame can stop him and the rest can't do squat once he gets going.

About every setup sweeper:
Exactly my point. He's to strong for this metagame and his *checks* and counters can be worked around. It's like 5% of the metagame can stop him and the rest can't do squat once he gets going.

 

[dbcb]

Guys, the Life Orb set is not Raikou's standard set. The on-site analysis is geared towards OU. The SubCM set is the standard for UU.



I was talking about Lefties, Timid, TBolt, CM, Sub, HP Ice/Grass/Water.

then maybe people are using the wrong standard set.

It doesn't matter which is "standard"... if there is a set out their that owns a majority of the tier then it should be looked at.

and i am not even saying raikou is BL.. but ur list of counters was easily disposed of with a switch of one set... i didnt use 6 moves like above.

 

[GMLW]

I'd rather use the set that can live for more than ten turns and is harder to hit with status.

And it does matter if it's the standard. If there is a set that used more often than any other set, it should definately be looked at. Like I just said, Life Orb Raikou has more power and better coverage, but can be hit by status and is more prone to revenge killing because of Life Orb recoil. Neither set is better than the other, they just have different counters.