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np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Its been brought up in the past, but unlike Cresselia - who was voted of for its defensive prowess, Milotic is prone to Spikes, making it easy to handle somewhat. Though if it was somehow immune to Spikes, it would definitely be a different story. A RestTalk Milotic is probably one of the hardest things to budge.
This has been brought up before (IIRC Yanmega's stage or the one before it) and outside of 1 or 2 nominations died out. Yes, Milotic is an annoying bitch that deserves to burn in hell, but being vulnerable to all entry hazards, having quite a few safe switch-ins (talking about the tank set here) and having a 4 moveslot syndrome (no Rest/SleepTalk/Recover/Surf/HP Grass/Haze/Ice Beam) I don't see it any close to BL. As mentioned before, I think the metagame would benefit more from her staying than the contrary.
Edit: ninja'd by Demi Lovato and that 10 year old kid by her side ._.
Edit: ninja'd by Demi Lovato and that 10 year old kid by her side ._.
I agree, a lot quite frankly. It's incredibly hard to move up the ladder if you don't abuse what ever has come down from OU until it gets banned. Froslass Spike-stacking, multiple spin blockers, Raikou and Moltres are basically the only ways to see success. It seems as soon as one broken pokemon is dealt with, even more pokemon come down from OU or wherever to take their place. It makes getting a stable metagame practically impossible, since half of the players scramble to use what ever has come down and the other half scramble to find a counter, the pokemon is voted BL, and it all happens over again.
I've been playing UU since the Yanmega/ Roserade days, and I have to say this is the least fun metagame since then. I don't think I'm a bad player, but using Pokemon like Raikou and Moltres and tactics like using Froslass for spike stacking doesn't make someone a "good" player, and I certainly don't think they make for a "good" team.
That is not true. I know plenty of people who don't use the "potential-suspects" or bog standard shit and they are pretty successful in the ladder (see Synre, Thund, Flare Blitz), hell even some of them are more successful than me and I use Raikou and Moltres on the same team. Skill plays a big part of your ladder match, if your not winning consistently, its not the playstyle, its your skill.
Okay, I think I am getting quite close to being convinced Raikou is BL (Not quite there yet, need to play a bit more). The CM + 3 Attacks set is extremely lethal, but not the Life Orb set. If anyone hasn't tried yet, try him out with a Shuca Berry. A lot of teams depend on Dugtrio to come in a revenge kill the thing after he kills whatever, but with a Shuca Berry, he can get past Duggy and continue sweeping. Same goes for Venusaur (Although he can put you to Sleep) and Steelix (He can Roar you). Remove Chansey (I'm doing with LO Haunter by Exploding on her, people never expect it for some reason) and he's going to kill quite a few Pokemon after a Calm Mind. The loss in power output without Life Orb is disappointing, but not getting revenged by Dugtrio is a massive plus.
Excellent. Seeing is believing.
Meh, Shuca Raikou is pretty bad. Sure you can deal with Duggy but you lose immense power to destroy things with. It's not like Duggy is everywhere. (might change soon)
I agree that people with extra-ordinary skill can manage, but most people don't have that skill level, hence why there is a problem with the aforementioned pokemon for many people. But you can't honestly say that if someone doesn't have a reliable counter to either Moltres or Raikou, or both, that they will still win on skill alone.
Excellent. Seeing is believing.
Meh, Shuca Raikou is pretty bad. Sure you can deal with Duggy but you lose immense power to destroy things with. It's not like Duggy is everywhere. (might change soon)
Well I don't want to brag, but one of my Raichu team reached 26 during the Cresselia/Porygon Z era...
It's mainly about skill. (I've seen the best of them use some really weird stuff)
Meh, Shuca Raikou is pretty bad. Sure you can deal with Duggy but you lose immense power to destroy things with. It's not like Duggy is everywhere. (might change soon)
'
Well I don't want to brag, but one of my Raichu team reached 26 during the Cresselia/Porygon Z era...
It's mainly about skill. (I've seen the best of them use some really weird stuff)
I agree 100% with everything except the last sentence. Anyway as long as venu and all the other crap that beats milo easily stays in UU i dont think it should even deserve to get nominated for bl much less sent there. And even if it does go slowbro and slowking are excellent substitutes.
You don't need to use Froslass / Raikou / Venusaur / Dugtrio to be successful in this tier. Seriously I don't understand why you all constantly complain all the time. This is one of the most stable UU metagames we have the chance to play in, and yet all I see is more bickering. IMO nothing is broken this round except possibly Froslass, yet there continues to be talk about something like Milotic being broken? Are you all out of your fucking minds?
Seriously it's like you guys want to ban something, then once that gets banned you find new stuff to ban regardless of the fact that it is not broken at all. Why are you all so ban-happy? Just enjoy the metagame with an objective attitude, not this subjective bullshit of "I can't kill Milotic therefore its broken." Maybe you just don't know how to beat it, reassess your team and strategy. And to whoever said Registeel is broken, I'm sorry that is just stupid and I'll leave it at that.
On another note, if you can't use non-standard shit to win, no one is telling you to avoid using the said 'broken Pokemon'. You have a choice what to use; if you don't wanna use the more powerful Pokemon then you have no right to complain about losing because the mental block in your head is preventing you from using a winning formula aka using the best available Pokemon possible. Why do you think Ubers are almost always used in the Ubers metagame? Jesus some of the things in this thread are ridiculous. Go adapt to the metagame and figure out why you might be losing, or just quit the game.
Seriously it's like you guys want to ban something, then once that gets banned you find new stuff to ban regardless of the fact that it is not broken at all. Why are you all so ban-happy? Just enjoy the metagame with an objective attitude, not this subjective bullshit of "I can't kill Milotic therefore its broken." Maybe you just don't know how to beat it, reassess your team and strategy. And to whoever said Registeel is broken, I'm sorry that is just stupid and I'll leave it at that.
On another note, if you can't use non-standard shit to win, no one is telling you to avoid using the said 'broken Pokemon'. You have a choice what to use; if you don't wanna use the more powerful Pokemon then you have no right to complain about losing because the mental block in your head is preventing you from using a winning formula aka using the best available Pokemon possible. Why do you think Ubers are almost always used in the Ubers metagame? Jesus some of the things in this thread are ridiculous. Go adapt to the metagame and figure out why you might be losing, or just quit the game.
Contrary towhat others may think I find this is a very fair metagame where a variety of pokemon can be used to their full potential with some support which is needed for all pokemon in this round even moltres and raikou. As others have said many successful players are using these lesser known pokemon to great sucess. I have seen some commonalities between teams but most presents a unique team to fit a players style.
As for milotic: Is she hard to take down yes if you don't account for her when building a team. Is she impossible to break no.
As for milotic: Is she hard to take down yes if you don't account for her when building a team. Is she impossible to break no.
I just have to quote it cause its so true.....Twist of Fate said:
Honestly i agree with most of ToF's opinion regarding the UU-metagame.
I believe there are no suspects out there right now.....
Also i find myself struggling much more against venusaur then any other suspect-worthy pokemon and this is just due to its versatility (Sleep Inducer-, mixed-, physiscal-, special, Wall- Sets are all possible). He hasnt any clear counter besides maybe Hypno. Luckily i could handle him somewhat until now....
No one's proposing any serious bans besides Froslass and Raikou, who I think we can all agree are the two biggest issues in UU right now. Everything else is just metagame theory and speculation.
But I really don't think this is a stable metagame at all, as even Honch/Gallade and Cress/PZ were much more direct and nearly unanimous. The problem here is some of UU's biggest problems have been overshadowed by OU flunkees and they're causing more discord than ever. Without UU's most effective suicide lead/Spikes stacker, Spikes will be harder to get up due Cloyster and Omastar to being Taunted, spun on, or otherwise forced out on a regular basis and it'll amount to just another strategy rather than a seemingly omnipresent force.
But I really don't think this is a stable metagame at all, as even Honch/Gallade and Cress/PZ were much more direct and nearly unanimous. The problem here is some of UU's biggest problems have been overshadowed by OU flunkees and they're causing more discord than ever. Without UU's most effective suicide lead/Spikes stacker, Spikes will be harder to get up due Cloyster and Omastar to being Taunted, spun on, or otherwise forced out on a regular basis and it'll amount to just another strategy rather than a seemingly omnipresent force.
This is just flat out wrong, considering I never use Froslass as my main spiker on my serious teams anyway. Omastar and Cloyster both threaten Donphan meaning it can't spin and hit Hitmontop for decent damage as well. The only thing that can spin freely on those two is Blastoise, who is uncommon as is. It doesn't require another strategy, you're just not playing it properly.
So what if Omastar gets taunted by lead Ambipom, they can't do anything back while you kill it anyway. I don't get what you're trying to show here; you're logic is incorrect anyway.
I also advocate Omastar use. Ambipom does literally squat to Omastar has surf deals around 60%. They shouldn't even BE taunting omastar (but they do anyways) That lose of 60% is not worthy taunting one measly pokemon.
The metagame is also extremely anti Froslass when it comes to leads. (It seems she's trying to be an anti lead herself, what with all of those T-bolt/Ice shard/Shadow Ball leads)
and she should be best left outside of lead role to nearly guarantee spikes. (I mean she can setup on a good amount of pokemon.)
Back to Omastar, he's bulk and sheer power (base 115 SpA is great) should not be underestimated. It's ability to hurt most of UU's spinners (save blastoise) on the predicted spin is awesome.
Tried to reply to all the defensive suspect themed posts that had content worth debating in them. Ignored a few posts by people with sub-100 posts who clearly think I posted that because I can't beat Milotic or something, might wanna "lurk more," friends.
Registeel had been my first thought too, since it's such a bandaid counter for most teams both offensive and defensive. Both it and Milotic just get thrown onto teams willy nilly since they both counter about half the metagame without any sort of intelligent team support at all. I don't really care about how the work on offensively incline teams, but it irritates me much they boost stall. With that playstyle so much of the game is team matchups (or I guess more precisely, the opponent not having the right Pokemon to break the stall), and it's that much easier - I think, too much easier - to make sure that occurs when both of those Pokemon blanket counter half the game.
All about who's nominating it, I think.
Though the fact it would hurt every style is kind of a sign itself, I think. It kinda sends up red flags with me when any Pokemon is fitting well on every style of play - at that point it's less because it's the right Pokemon, and more because it's the best Pokemon.
There was plenty of stall, for sure, though they weren't all that ghost heavy. IPL won with hail stall, AM won with his stall team (which I believe is only one ghost, does feature Milotic, and has comedy Foresight rapid spin) which about four other people were also using, one of whom got to the semis Saturday. Loki's team is pretty slowly based too, though I'm not sure I'd consider it stall...
Trying to think back to what people were using in the semis. Obviously all the above users were there... Meowth was one of the few who were using legit offense teams, HR.'s team is pretty fast, and two of the three round robin finalists Friday were using rain (though I would have used my current team if I'd had it then).
Stalking some friends the Sunday/late Saturday and through my own path Friday and Saturday stall was the only thing that really stood out to me, so I agree on that end - it's just everywhere. It didn't bother me to the point I couldn't beat it (I made a couple really stupid mistakes in the finals Friday vs. AM in addition to being outpredicted a few times, and Rain vs. Loki Saturday just wasn't going to work), but it was enough that I think weakening a couple of the pivots would be good for th egame.
I'm not sure what the entry hazards thing matters. I guess I should reword that before I get jumped, but I mean, as much as grounded hazard immunity makes anything a better Pokemon, it's not too relevant to its walling ability unless the hazards are consistently turning 3HKOs to 2HKOs or 2HKOs to 1HKOs, which isn't the case for almost anything with Milotic other than Moltres (who I suspect will also be getting banned anyway). Even with full hazards (which are not nearly as hard to keep off the field as people seem to be thinking these days), Milotic walls what I would consider a majority of the metagame, since there aren't too many Pokemon who can do > 50% to it and avoid getting Recover + status stalled unless they're using a boosted attack or a super effective attack of at least 85 base power.
On the edit: Yeah I'm pretty OVER all these creepy young girl pictures so it's time for some revenge (and especially scantily clad womenz avatars like Scofield's)...
Reliable switch-ins? It's a tank. If you switch out, it already won. ++Hazard damage, force out that the team can try to punch later, it did what it's there to do.
I don't really have anything to add to this but I appreciate that you write walls of text that share my opinion so I don't have to. As much.
(EDIT: Though obviously I agree with the course of action in the Registeel/Milotic section since he is vehemently defending stall, I like the logic there since not being able to kill them is not at all my issue.)
Registeel had been my first thought too, since it's such a bandaid counter for most teams both offensive and defensive. Both it and Milotic just get thrown onto teams willy nilly since they both counter about half the metagame without any sort of intelligent team support at all. I don't really care about how the work on offensively incline teams, but it irritates me much they boost stall. With that playstyle so much of the game is team matchups (or I guess more precisely, the opponent not having the right Pokemon to break the stall), and it's that much easier - I think, too much easier - to make sure that occurs when both of those Pokemon blanket counter half the game.
All about who's nominating it, I think.
Though the fact it would hurt every style is kind of a sign itself, I think. It kinda sends up red flags with me when any Pokemon is fitting well on every style of play - at that point it's less because it's the right Pokemon, and more because it's the best Pokemon.
There was plenty of stall, for sure, though they weren't all that ghost heavy. IPL won with hail stall, AM won with his stall team (which I believe is only one ghost, does feature Milotic, and has comedy Foresight rapid spin) which about four other people were also using, one of whom got to the semis Saturday. Loki's team is pretty slowly based too, though I'm not sure I'd consider it stall...
Trying to think back to what people were using in the semis. Obviously all the above users were there... Meowth was one of the few who were using legit offense teams, HR.'s team is pretty fast, and two of the three round robin finalists Friday were using rain (though I would have used my current team if I'd had it then).
Stalking some friends the Sunday/late Saturday and through my own path Friday and Saturday stall was the only thing that really stood out to me, so I agree on that end - it's just everywhere. It didn't bother me to the point I couldn't beat it (I made a couple really stupid mistakes in the finals Friday vs. AM in addition to being outpredicted a few times, and Rain vs. Loki Saturday just wasn't going to work), but it was enough that I think weakening a couple of the pivots would be good for th egame.
I'm not sure what the entry hazards thing matters. I guess I should reword that before I get jumped, but I mean, as much as grounded hazard immunity makes anything a better Pokemon, it's not too relevant to its walling ability unless the hazards are consistently turning 3HKOs to 2HKOs or 2HKOs to 1HKOs, which isn't the case for almost anything with Milotic other than Moltres (who I suspect will also be getting banned anyway). Even with full hazards (which are not nearly as hard to keep off the field as people seem to be thinking these days), Milotic walls what I would consider a majority of the metagame, since there aren't too many Pokemon who can do > 50% to it and avoid getting Recover + status stalled unless they're using a boosted attack or a super effective attack of at least 85 base power.
On the edit: Yeah I'm pretty OVER all these creepy young girl pictures so it's time for some revenge (and especially scantily clad womenz avatars like Scofield's)...
Reliable switch-ins? It's a tank. If you switch out, it already won. ++Hazard damage, force out that the team can try to punch later, it did what it's there to do.
I don't really have anything to add to this but I appreciate that you write walls of text that share my opinion so I don't have to. As much.
(EDIT: Though obviously I agree with the course of action in the Registeel/Milotic section since he is vehemently defending stall, I like the logic there since not being able to kill them is not at all my issue.)
Got your back teifuuu =)
I'd just like to say that if you look at the tour games from last season, I'd say 50% of wins came from stall and 50% from HO, and that metagame is very similar to the one we currently play.
Obviously people are gonna pack dual ghosts if they play stall, its the function of the playstyle to stop shit from spinning away the hazards lol. It became popularized last tour when I used Spiritomb + Mismagius to guarantee no spinning, but the metagame changes to stop dual ghost from ruining other stall teams. For example, Blastoise is a great spinner against opposing stall because every ghost takes a chunk of damage from Surf (its why I used it against xianglongfa in the BOTW instead of my traditional Hitmontop). Again, you have no right to complain against the strategy unless nothing in the tier works at beating it, which in this case is clearly false.
Just as in OU, HO works well against stall provided you make a good HO team. It all comes down to the parts you use on HO to beat stall; you cannot throw a team of the top 6 used Pokemon and expect to win often, this game just doesn't work like that. And considering I use things that range in the C-D range in the viability topic, clearly you put yourself at a disadvantage if you do rely on usage statistics in making teams. Synergy is an important concept in Pokemon, I suggest everyone that wants to ban shit learn what it is and practice creating it.
I'd just like to say that if you look at the tour games from last season, I'd say 50% of wins came from stall and 50% from HO, and that metagame is very similar to the one we currently play.
Obviously people are gonna pack dual ghosts if they play stall, its the function of the playstyle to stop shit from spinning away the hazards lol. It became popularized last tour when I used Spiritomb + Mismagius to guarantee no spinning, but the metagame changes to stop dual ghost from ruining other stall teams. For example, Blastoise is a great spinner against opposing stall because every ghost takes a chunk of damage from Surf (its why I used it against xianglongfa in the BOTW instead of my traditional Hitmontop). Again, you have no right to complain against the strategy unless nothing in the tier works at beating it, which in this case is clearly false.
Just as in OU, HO works well against stall provided you make a good HO team. It all comes down to the parts you use on HO to beat stall; you cannot throw a team of the top 6 used Pokemon and expect to win often, this game just doesn't work like that. And considering I use things that range in the C-D range in the viability topic, clearly you put yourself at a disadvantage if you do rely on usage statistics in making teams. Synergy is an important concept in Pokemon, I suggest everyone that wants to ban shit learn what it is and practice creating it.
If (and it's a big if) Milotic gets banned to BL, lots of fire type pokemon (blaziken, moltres, arcanine etc...) would be even stronger than they are now (especially moltres who I think is BL, no matter what SR weakness it has). Many teams already have trouble with these pokemon with their ridiculously high powered STAB moves, so banning milotic isn't the wisest choice. Plus, (depending if it has HP grass or Ice beam as its second attack) it is set-up bait for pokemon like venusaur, DD gatr (although most milotic run haze now), Raikou, Poliwrath etc... There are many good counters to milotic once you figure out its second attack. The life orb versions take attacks much less easily, so a power whip from SD venusaur is a One-Hit Knockout, Thunderbolt from offensive Raikou is a One-Hit Knockout, Adamant Choice Band CC from hitmonlee is a One-Hit Knockout after life orb recoil or SR damage etc... It can be handled relatively easily even by bulky waters, such as Slowking and Quagsire, if they run toxic (and the latter has to watch out for HP grass).
Wow I didn't think bringing up Milotic again would spark this much discussion...lol
I think our first priority should definitely be Froslass/Raikou/Moltres. However, the whole suspect overshadowed by another suspect can apply in Milotics case. As Franky stated, Milotic is prone to Spikes so the #1 Spikes user (which is also most teams' only spin blocker) getting banned would make it harder to set and keep Spikes up. And we all know Raikou just loves switching in on Milotic. With these two gone, Milotic can be even more difficult to defeat.
It really is difficult to choose a Defensive suspect though. I mean, Milotic isn't meant to be sweeping teams. It just has to sit on its ass and counter Pokemon, which it can do to about half the tier, while another portion just doesn't like switching in on her, which leaves around a small number of Pokemon that can actually switch-in and threaten it.
I don't believe Milotic is broken this round, but next round it can definitely prove to at least be a Suspect. The reason I even brought it up anyway is because a lot of HO peeps believe that stall is gaining all the benefits from suspects being banned (like Honch, Gallade, etc), which I must agree it is. But I do believe we have to at least have a discussion on potential defensive suspects, or properly define what one is because right now it's much harder to think of something as a defensive suspect than offensive.
I think our first priority should definitely be Froslass/Raikou/Moltres. However, the whole suspect overshadowed by another suspect can apply in Milotics case. As Franky stated, Milotic is prone to Spikes so the #1 Spikes user (which is also most teams' only spin blocker) getting banned would make it harder to set and keep Spikes up. And we all know Raikou just loves switching in on Milotic. With these two gone, Milotic can be even more difficult to defeat.
It really is difficult to choose a Defensive suspect though. I mean, Milotic isn't meant to be sweeping teams. It just has to sit on its ass and counter Pokemon, which it can do to about half the tier, while another portion just doesn't like switching in on her, which leaves around a small number of Pokemon that can actually switch-in and threaten it.
I don't believe Milotic is broken this round, but next round it can definitely prove to at least be a Suspect. The reason I even brought it up anyway is because a lot of HO peeps believe that stall is gaining all the benefits from suspects being banned (like Honch, Gallade, etc), which I must agree it is. But I do believe we have to at least have a discussion on potential defensive suspects, or properly define what one is because right now it's much harder to think of something as a defensive suspect than offensive.
Yeah, Thund, I completely agree that Froslass, Raikou, and Moltres are the biggest suspects. Does anyone find it at all interesting that Moltres was NU, now it is UU, and it has a pretty good chance of climbing further to BL. If anyone realized Moltres' potential when it was NU, oh man would that person have a nice CRE :)
Does anyone else think that Dugtrio might be a potential suspect? I mean, pair it with a Set-Up special attacker (like Raikou) and eliminate its counters (Registeel, Chansey, & Lanturn and its checks Rhyperior and Regirock among others) and your Raikou will have a field day cleaning up mid-late game after its counters are gone.
Does anyone else think that Dugtrio might be a potential suspect? I mean, pair it with a Set-Up special attacker (like Raikou) and eliminate its counters (Registeel, Chansey, & Lanturn and its checks Rhyperior and Regirock among others) and your Raikou will have a field day cleaning up mid-late game after its counters are gone.
No, I think my logic is spot-on in regards to Froslass's effect on Spikes. You being a good player and being able to get Spikes up has nothing to do with the fact that getting around Cloyster and Omastar is incredibly easy, as opposed to Froslass, who imposes some serious mindgames just by being faster and a Ghost type, making it harder to force out in general.
Omastar invites anything faster with moderately strong special attack and a super effective move (there's going to be one or two of those one any given team guaranteed and they won't hesitate to switch in on you), which amounts to one layer of Spikes at best in any given scenario. If it's not the lead, you get one layer. If it is the lead, you get forced out instantly with momentum lost and no Spikes up. Once you're forced out against an offensive team, it's difficult to find an opening for Omastar to get back in because Water/Rock is terrible defensive typing and Omastar very slow.
Froslass doesn't really have these problems, as there only a few common leads that are faster than it, can Taunt it, and prevent it from getting any Spikes up at all. If you're slower, you're most likely either facing two automatic layers or losing a big chunk of health from Ice Beam or Shadow Ball (and quite possibly Thunderbolt). Then you have to play around Destiny Bond (which could just get me another layer as you switch to something that you don't mind losing) or pray your opponent doesn't use it as you attack.
In fact, you don't even have to stop at two layers. If you're not worried about what your opponent sets up on their end or switch it out at an opportune time, you can get it up to three layers pretty easily. Even if something manages to force Froslass out, it won't have as much trouble getting back in to wreak more havoc, since it's fast and has two good immunities to help it switch in. Cloyster and Omastar don't have any, are slow, and have a harder time setting up hazards in general.
In fact, I think it says enough that Froslass is being nominated to BL and the other Spikers are not.
Hahahaha more bitching...anyway, I agree with ToF, the only suspect I see is that Froslass. I mean, without her, NOTHING would be sweeping as easily as they do now, except possibly RP Aggron, but that thing is stopped by priority anyway and shit like torterra. Without spikes, even modest moltres isn't killing milotic unless it predicts perfectly, and even then, specially defensive sets rape it. Raikou, same story, but I guess it is slightly more deadly, but stallers like chansey, trappers like duggy, and hp icelss versions of raikou are easily dealth with by torterra. Froslass isn't sweeping, so maybe that's what's changing my opinion, but I guess what I am trying to say is she ALWAYS gets her job done, while the others need to sweep to work "effectively". She has an "easy" task and never fails.
tl;dr froslass is the culprit behind all this newfound "broken" shit.
Edit: Ok, I feel like this crap doesn't evem make sense xD. I can honestly say that I'm am on the fence about Raikou. I'veb en using the LO set with no spikes support and it STILL manages to sweep, but I am using duggy support. Damnit, I'm confusing myself...whatever, imo, froslass BL, Raikou not sure, and Moltres UU.
tl;dr froslass is the culprit behind all this newfound "broken" shit.
Edit: Ok, I feel like this crap doesn't evem make sense xD. I can honestly say that I'm am on the fence about Raikou. I'veb en using the LO set with no spikes support and it STILL manages to sweep, but I am using duggy support. Damnit, I'm confusing myself...whatever, imo, froslass BL, Raikou not sure, and Moltres UU.
When was Moltres ever NU? I'm pretty sure UU is the lowest its ever been in all four generations.
If there was an NU in RBY, Moltres would be a prime canidate for it. In RBY, it's movepool that was notable was - and I'm not kidding - Fire Blast and Fire Spin. That's it. No Flamethrower, nothing else. It did get Flamethrower in Crystal though.
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