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QFT. There will always be a "best" Pokemon for each niche. A "Counter"less Pokemon is so overrated these days. Look at Gengar. No counters. Is it Uber?? Hell no. What about Tyranitar. No 100% counter to every set. Is it Uber?? Not that I'm aware of. This goes on and on. If Pokemon X can get past its checks with different sets instead of just one (See: SD/Outrage/EQ/Fire Fang YacheChomp for ONE set), it is not automatically Uber/BL. People should really recognise this. For example, let's look at Raikou now (I haven't formed a decision yet, planning to abstain from voting on Raikou atm), no one set can beat EVERY Pokemon. Firstly, Chansey walls every set. Registeel stops every set. Steelix stops non HP Water ones. Stuff like Camerupt (lol, must find better example), stop HP Grass ones. HP Ice ones are stopped by Quagsire and co. No definitive set can allow Raikou to sweep EVERYTHING without support.
Anyway, on a different matter, how would Agility LO Kingler do in this metagame?? It's stats, ability and moves greatly resemble Agiligross. Base 130 Attack is awesome, Hyper Cutter laughs at Intimidate and coverage isn't bad.
But then again, no definitive set can allow Porygonz to sweep everything without support, yet it got banned under the offensive characteristic ... and Moltres has been nominated a lot this round although it can't sweep everything either. I think there is a legitimate case for Raikou being BL, but it's not as clearly BL as, say, Honchkrow. By the way Chansey walls every set except RestTalkCM.
Interesting idea with Kingler, although I've not used it so I can't say much more than that.
Anyway, on a different matter, how would Agility LO Kingler do in this metagame?? It's stats, ability and moves greatly resemble Agiligross. Base 130 Attack is awesome, Hyper Cutter laughs at Intimidate and coverage isn't bad.
People need to stop complaining about all of the suspects being offensive (or support suspects which helps offense). Anyone is more then welcome to nominate a defensive Pokemon they believe to be broken. I'm not trying to blame or single you out but I find it really unnecessary when people make comments saying every UU player is trying to turn UU into a stallfest.
I said "It is not automatically BL". It does mean there should be a lot of debate, but what I have read from a lot of people's posts is that "It has no definitive counter, therefore it is broken". It could be broken, but that logic is flawed.
I said "It is not automatically BL". It does mean there should be a lot of debate, but what I have read from a lot of people's posts is that "It has no definitive counter, therefore it is broken". It could be broken, but that logic is flawed.
I don't remember seeing any posts that said Raikou or Moltres didn't have any counters. But I've seen many that stated their counters are unreliable, which I find to be true. Chansey is a solid counter to Raikou yes, but Chansey isn't fitting well on over half the teams out there. Registeel is a better fit on teams, but people rely on it to counter/check so many things that it's hardly going to be in tip top shape, and Raikou can just keep Thunderbolting on the switch and with no Recovery Registeel won't be able to counter what it's supposed to. And it's true that certain Pokemon can counter Raikou depending on the Hidden Power, but more often than not you're not gonna know the Hidden Power type until your counter dies. A team relying on Torterra is completely wrecked when Ice kills it, while a team relying on Quagsire is wrecked by Grass. Unless you're running multiple counters (seems pretty broken eh?) you're losing your "counter," and you're gonna get swept.
And counters for Moltres...I count Chansey and Calm Milotic. Revenge killing is an option but that means Moltres killed a Poke.
Let's add Grumpig to that list, while we're at it. Thick Fat makes Fire Blast and anything else Moltres can dish out a 4HKO at best, while Grumpig can retaliate with Twave and Power Gem. Having used it today, I can see why it's been lauded as one of the best special tanks in the UU days of old.
Hypno has reliable recovery going for him, but having Thick Fat, as well as higher speed and special attack are invaluable. They counter mostly the same things, but Hypno is more reliable for taking out Venusaur while Grumpig is better for countering Moltres. I hope more people start looking into these two.
526 Atk vs 190 Def & 374 HP (120 Base Power): 465 - 547 (124.33% - 146.26%)
This is LO boosted +2 Power Whip vs standart Hypno. It's not a counter.
526 Atk vs 262 Def & 374 HP (120 Base Power): 337 - 397 (90.11% - 106.15%)
Got ahead and calced it against a Max/Max Hypno, because i know some people will be bringing that up even though this set makes no sense.
@shrang: RestTalk beats Chansey. Regarding the no counters, the pokes you listed don't have 100% counters; but that doesn't stop Gengar from being as good as dead once a smart user of Scizor/ scarf Tar comes rain on its parade (what I mean is, do one smart switching and you can say goodbye to it). Finally, Salamence is probably the epitome of a pokémon who has no counters, and it can't be said he's in the safe zone. Finally, regarding Kingler, a Water-type that takes 80% damage from switching into Moltres' Fire Blast shouldn't see much use; while Agiligross has a great set of resistance and can actually take hit(s).
Venusaur doesn't have an 100% counter in the UU metagame (Registeel's probably the closest, although +2 EQ does a bucket load, and SubSeed gives it hell too).
@ Bluewind: Didn't say anything about a counter. Realistically, you're going to be switching into Sleep Powder most of the time, so that gives me a free switch-in to Twave, Reflect, or or attack. Then again, if it's a defensive or sp. att set, it can just come in anyway and force you out. March statistics has them at about 50/50, with Sp. Att/Wall being slightly more common.
Regardless, I'd rather think of it as something that can take both a Sleep Powder and a strong special attack than a full-blown counter. I've almost completely given up on the idea of there being a Venusaur counter.
Though this does make me wonder whether or not we have a UU Salamence in our midst. Except Mence is more like "I'm obviously broken, but everyone's used to me" while Venusaur is a case of "I'm almost broken, but no one has the balls to say anything".
Venusaur doesn't have an 100% counter in the UU metagame (Registeel's probably the closest, although +2 EQ does a bucket load, and SubSeed gives it hell too).
Weezing would be my pick. +2 LO Power Whip and Return fail to 2HKO. STAB special attacks are resisted too, so even with average special defense Weezing can take it. Good for taking a sleep and scouting a set. Not saying it is a 100% counter, but it is right up there.
If Salamence is broken it's because of its amazing movepool and the different sets he can pull off, sometimes having no counters even if you know its moveset. On the other side Venusaur has around 4 movesets, that mostly share the same counters (Venusaur is never getting past Moltres or Altaria unless your opponent misplays and it carries Return, and going to things like Alakazam and stuff is not the hardest thing to do when they seem to SD everyfreakingtime). Finally, the day sleep becomes broken Breloom and Darkrai will be banned from the game, cause they are two sleepers with much more accurate moves and that abuse sleep MUCH better.
Edit: Tangrowth (SD set), Weezing, Altaria, Registeel (depending of moveset), Moltres. These are some examples of counters to Venusaur that might not be 100% (nothing is 100% counter to nothing), but still cut it. It's also important to remind people that Venusaur gets to sleep one poké per match, not 6.
Regardless, I'd rather think of it as something that can take both a Sleep Powder and a strong special attack than a full-blown counter. I've almost completely given up on the idea of there being a Venusaur counter.
Though this does make me wonder whether or not we have a UU Salamence in our midst. Except Mence is more like "I'm obviously broken, but everyone's used to me" while Venusaur is a case of "I'm almost broken, but no one has the balls to say anything".
I was talking with a couple of people about Venusaur being a possible suspect, but people were too afraid to bring it up. The fact of the matter is, it doesn't fill any of the criteria of being BL. A Venusaur vs. Salamence is not even comparable since they are completely different. In essence, we are talking about Grass vs. Dragon in terms of type coverage; Dragon being resisted by Steel types only, while Grass is resisted by a number of Pokemon.
It really boils down to how you prepare for it, obviously, if you don't prepare for Venusaur, you'll have troubles dealing with it. And as Bluewind stated, Venusaur shares the same counters no matter what set it runs. If you're looking for counters, you can definitely try RestTalk Arcanine, RestTalk Altaria, Registeel, Clefable with Toxic Orb, Weezing, to name a few. These are just a couple of Pokemon that are capable of dealing with different variations of Venusaur. By the way, your post suggests that you are having troubles with Sleep instead of Venusaur. By your logic, Breloom has no counters.
I dont mean to interupt but back to idea of kingler. He actually has quite a commendable defense. He can also set up sword dance and agility. However, I find his problem in his lacking coverage. Yes he hits everything for normal damage bar shedninja but he lacks the superegfective coverage that aids in both wall breaking and sweeping.
With the topic of venusuar, he is simply a pokemon that must be planned for similar to milotic. Furthermore grass has horrific coverage allowing fliers such as moltes or scyther a free switch
If it werent for that spc.defense and speed people would be all over him. A choice scarf set my be pretty good though. I dont see it getting out of Tauros/Kanghaskan range which is a powerful pokemon with a good surpise factor, but with notable drawbacks.
On another note, who do guys feel about Kabutops? It really isnt regarded much as a suspect but it has 2 decently written noms.
Oh wow. I leave for a bit while people badmouth Raichu. Not cool.
Who do you think will replace Raikou? A speedy special attacker with no SR weakness and good defenses. People have been saying Mismagius but it does not really appeal to me as a top-tier pokemon with its pursuit weakness and shitastic 60 hp and defense.
In my opinon UU voters are to keen to ban hard hitters and things that dont have 100% counters.
Are you seriously demean us for trying to ban things that are clearly broken? I've bolded the last bit for you because THAT'S the main problem.
Raikou has no counters on Offense, sets up on a good portion of the tier, and destroys the rest of the tier with it's high speed and moveset of choice.
(Gallade has no counters on stall and is strong on offense, Staraptor and Yanmega had no counters period etc)
Looking back, I'm just noticing how horrible electric type as a whole in UU/NU is. It is like a sort of bottleneck where you have things like Zapdos and Electivire in OU but things like Lanturn and light orb Pikachu in UU.
The only other good electric types I see are Luxray and Electabuzz. Luxray has Flareon syndrome with a great attack stat but no good physical stab moves.
Luxray is a terrible pokemon. It's got fantastic offensive stats (but low speed) but no moves to make good use of them. Electabuzz is more or less outclassed by Raichu, (which I'm going to cover later on)
Zero switch-in opportunities? Check. No time for setup? Check. Dugtrio? Check.
Theorymoning? Really? Raichu has plenty of switch in's by using encore on a non-attacking move. He can force out a great deal of pokemon too. I also love how this can be almost 100% applied to Manetric too.
About the Bulky waters thing, Milotic 2KOs with surf. Combined with switching in, Raichu has no chance to set up against the #1 bulky water.
Lanturn 2KOs Raichu while Grass Knot only 2KOs and +2
Luidicolo has a chance of 1ko meaning Raichu cannot switch in in.
Every other bulky water is already koed by thunderbolt.
Milotic also 2HKO's pretty much every Electric type. (Save Luxray) Manetric is hit the worse due to his poorest SpD.
Lanturn is a Raichu counter, big deal. He counters Manectric too, and Luxray has no feasible way of getting past it.
Why would Raichu set up on Luddicolo? It's much better to attack, and if you can't kill it than switch out. Manetric is hit harder by special varients anyway due to his poorer special defense.
QFT. There will always be a "best" Pokemon for each niche. A "Counter"less Pokemon is so overrated these days. Look at Gengar. No counters. Is it Uber?? Hell no. What about Tyranitar. No 100% counter to every set. Is it Uber?? Not that I'm aware of. This goes on and on. If Pokemon X can get past its checks with different sets instead of just one (See: SD/Outrage/EQ/Fire Fang YacheChomp for ONE set), it is not automatically Uber/BL. People should really recognise this. For example, let's look at Raikou now (I haven't formed a decision yet, planning to abstain from voting on Raikou atm), no one set can beat EVERY Pokemon. Firstly, Chansey walls every set. Registeel stops every set. Steelix stops non HP Water ones. Stuff like Camerupt (lol, must find better example), stop HP Grass ones. HP Ice ones are stopped by Quagsire and co. No definitive set can allow Raikou to sweep EVERYTHING without support.
Anyway, on a different matter, how would Agility LO Kingler do in this metagame?? It's stats, ability and moves greatly resemble Agiligross. Base 130 Attack is awesome, Hyper Cutter laughs at Intimidate and coverage isn't bad.
UU's suspects (unlike the pokemon you mentioned) differ from the pokemon you listed. Firstly, these pokemon have been NOMINATED FOR BL. (Seriously, didn't you nominate?!?)
2, these pokemon cause blatant problems. Gengar isn't absolutely dominating OU. Give it a lot more bulk THEN we can talk. Same with Tyranitar. Sure it can run many sets, but it's not that hard to figure out which set is which. (It's still got hard counters for each set)
Raikou presents us a blatant problem. He dominates offense teams. Am I really going to run Steelix and Registeel on my offense team? Hell no. But Raikou IS THAT MUCH OF A PROBLEM. I've seen a boatload of people sticking in Registeel just counter that menace. I don't see people plopping in a Blissey to counter Gengar (on their offense team)
Yeah, you've noticed that I'm sorta raging. But I can't stand someone badmouthing Raichu for no reason, and worse still a new user who has know idea what he's talking about and getting away with it.
Has anyone considered Noctowl as a counter to Venusaur? It can't be put to sleep thanks to Insomnia, has decent bulk and resists grass, and has roost. I'm suprised I haven't seen even a slight increase in his usage this metagame.
Has anyone considered Noctowl as a counter to Venusaur? It can't be put to sleep thanks to Insomnia, has decent bulk and resists grass, and has roost. I'm suprised I haven't seen even a slight increase in his usage this metagame.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but...
2+ Power Whip deals: 80% - 94.3% to the standard special wall set
and 50% - 58.9% to physically bulky set. (assuming 252 Def/252 Hp and bold nature) and that's a 2HKO.
Manectric can try to do what Kou does. Charge Beam/Tbolt/Flamethrower/HP Ice or HP Grass or Substitute. It's slightly slower and weaker and a hell of a lot less bulky, but it's still a very underrated poke. Hell, if it got Calm Mind I'd probably use it over 'Kou, because it can run through Steelix, Registeel, and Venusaur with just one move. Alas, Charge Beam is a bit unreliable at times.
I find that Charge beam is far to unreliable, and if your opponent switches into a ground type you don't get the boost. Even then, 1+ Flamethrower fails to OHKO both Registeel and Steelix. (while they EQ/Twave)
Nasty plot Raichu however can deal with the aforementioned threats.
2+ Focus Blast OHKO's Steelix, and deals
83.5% - 98.4% to Registeel, meaning a possible OHKO with entry hazards. The nice thing about Raichu is that he is anti-stall incarnate, being able to absolutely destroy stall team on his own. (the main reason why I used Raichu over Raikou on of my teams)
Now I know what your thinking, "God PK Gaming, do you really think Manetric is worse than Raichu?"
Surprisingly... no.
Specs Manectric is a monster in the right hands. Crippling it's counters with Switcheroo is too good to pass up, and Specs boosted T-bolt hurts like a truck.
With Raikou gone, I can see a lot potential in these two.
The nice thing about Raichu is that he is anti-stall incarnate, being able to absolutely destroy stall team on his own. (the main reason why I used Raichu over Raikou on of my teams)
Well, assuming Venusaur gets the SD, but the majority of them I've seen just fire off Sleep Powder on the first turn. Bringing in Noctowl, if Venusaur stays in to SD after the Sleep Powder fails it risks getting put to sleep in the process. I guess it's as much of a counter to Venusaur as any other...
2+ Focus Blast deals: 57.4% - 67.7% a clean 2HKO. Generally, I try to take out Chansey ASAP before I sweep with Raichu.
2+ Hp Ice deals: 61.5% - 72.5% to support Venusaur. (OHKO's standard Venusaur) while Venusaur deals: 59.5% - 70.3% with power whip.
(Make sure your healthy when you tango with Venusaur)
(okay, way to add in the rotom LOL)
2+ Thunderbolt deals: 80.6% - 94.6% to standard Rotom's. (Stall sometimes runs trick Rotom sometimes)
2+ Thunderbolt deals: 64.1% - 75.3% to bulky Rotoms. (assuming the restalk set)
while Rotom doesn't really do anything back to Raichu. It Can Trick Raichu to cripple it and risk getting OHKOed by 2+ T-bolt (assuming entry hazards)
while Bulky Rotom can... will-o-wisp? It needs to hope for a lucky Paralyze from Discharge which is not advised.
Well, assuming Venusaur gets the SD, but the majority of them I've seen just fire off Sleep Powder on the first turn. Bringing in Noctowl, if Venusaur stays in to SD after the Sleep Powder fails it risks getting put to sleep in the process. I guess it's as much of a counter to Venusaur as any other...
You're still assuming, however, that Raichu starts at +2 and that Venusaur and Chansey have been weakened. Chansey can use Toxic and stall with Protect, Venusaur can Roar, Rotom can burn and switch around to abuse LO recoil + status damage.
Isn't that the point of a counter? It's not as if Psychic is fighting for a place on it's moveset, since the only real reason to use Noctowl is to counter Venusaur.
Where are these free stat boosts coming from? If we were to cast a vote, I would predict the majority would agree that Venusaur's first move will probably be Sleep Powder. People are switching in on the basis of this.
I'm not vouching for Noctowl here since unless it is physically bulky, Return still has a chance to 2HKO with no boosts and whatnot. Plus, Noctowl has nothing to hit back with, really. I just want to get people out of this way of thinking that says "boosted this KOs such-and-such" when people are looking to capitalise on predicted moves. The same was said about Raikou always getting 'free' Calm Minds a while back.
If that is the case, then:
211 Atk vs 136 Def & 212 HP (80 Base Power): 135 - 159 (63.68% - 75.00%)
That is the outcome of Dugtrio switching into Registeel who is predicted to use Stealth Rock or Thunder Wave on the switch, but uses Iron Head instead. So Dugtrio is not a good counter to Registeel†. How often would Registeel do this over using either T-Wave or SR though? Venusaur, on average, is played in much the same way: Sleep Powder on the switch, then set up.
tl;dr: Please don't just assume instant Swords Dance damage calcs. You're also assuming one set.
