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NP: UU - Silent Night

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I didn't address that part of ToF's post for a reason. I've been around for a lot longer than this account would suggest. Regardless, I'll admit that I shouldn't have come across as condescending. Let's leave it at that.

If you don't believe me and it bothers you that much, pretend someone else made that post.

Also, I'm not sure why Shaymin leaving does anything for Crobat's viability. Crobat was a great Shaymin check and a great Shaymin partner, but that didn't have anything to do with why it was banned (it had a lot to do with why Shaymin was banned immediately afterward though).

Edit: I'm also leaning towards "broken" on PG-Z, but I really don't think we gave it a fair shot due to Cresselia. That's also the reason I wouldn't be opposed to a Honchkrow re-test (not because of Cresselia in that case but because I think it was a really divisive suspect).

Hmm. Instead of speculating on this and bitching amongst ourselves, it would be cool if we had a "Suspect Re-Test Nomination Thread" where we could nominate BL candidates like we would Suspects (except in this case to prove that they're NOT broken).
 
as long as we can debate and still post on why particular suspects are still broken, im certainly up for it.
 
FlareBlitz said:
It seems you forgot the entire reason why Crobat was banned. It was not because there weren't a solid number of Pokemon that could check its offensive ability or kill it immediately, because there were. It was because those Pokemon often occupied one slot on a team, and a quick U-Turn on them can completely reverse the momentum of a game.
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As far as I remember, it was more that Crobat did everything "too well". It checked too many popular pokemon, and could sweep easily late game.

As far as the current metagame compared to a year ago, theres a lot of changes. The typical offensive team back then used Roserade/ Mixed Blaziken/ Missy/ Shaymin/Swellow/ (insert defensive pivots, usually RegiBro),along with their own Crobat, so they had a lot of trouble with Crobat, especially one surrounded by a stall team. Now, there have been a rise of certain pokemon and sets that trouble Crobat: Mesprit and TrickScarf Uxie (who beat Crobat in the lead spot), RHYPERIOR (this one is huge, Rhydon was a very good Crobat check back then), Donphan, Rotom, Kabutops(never used outside of Rain then), Houndoom with Sucker Punch, Head Smash Aggron, Mornign Sun Arcanine (who was great against Honchkrow, Crobat on steroids). Along with no Roserade or Shaymin and MUCH less Blaziken usage, I think will lessen the impact of Crobat in UU.

Or I could be totally wrong and it still fufills every suspect characteristic. Can't know without a test.
 
PLEASE no Porgyon-Z, it completely raped balance/stall. It was almost as bad as Gallade.

@Crobat-People are making it seem like it's Jesus or something. Crobat can't switch into as much as you think. Ok it can switch into offensively pathetic walls like Shuckle, yay! Most offensive Pokemon have a move that hits Crobat super effectively, be it Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Psychic, Stone Edge, whatever. Crobat can't even stand up to powerful neutral hits either. If Blaziken Fire Blasts on the switch you're ****ed. Not to mention that sooner or later you're going to be forced to Roost because taking 25% each time you switch in is a bitch.
 
FlareBlitz said:
@ToF

As you pointed out, Steelix and Rotom were still around when Crobat was deemed BL, so the only relevant considerations are Rhyperior and Donphan, and while they do beat Crobat my entire point is that it's not enough justification to where we can say "okay so it shits on 90% of the tier but these two pokemon, who are easily u-turned out of and beaten by the first and second most common pokemon in the tier, check it now SO IT MUST BE FINE". And as far as U-Turners go this isn't Scyther we're talking about, with the 4x SR weak and (relatively) shitty typing (and no Taunt). How many times are you going to be able to switch in Donphan/Rhyperior/Steelix/Rotom on Crobat when it can come in on so many things in the tier, taunt to shut down momentum, roost off any damage, and just u-turn out again?

It seems you forgot the entire reason why Crobat was banned. It was not because there weren't a solid number of Pokemon that could check its offensive ability or kill it immediately, because there were. It was because those Pokemon often occupied one slot on a team, and a quick U-Turn on them can completely reverse the momentum of a game.
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No, most of your post is incorrect. Steelix was used a lot back then, not Rotom. Now that Rotom is basically a top 10 UU Pokemon, Crobat is not gonna enjoy running through UU as it did before.

Yes we're not talking about Scyther who can actually hit its counters for like 40% with U-Turn, we're talking about Crobat who's other attacks other than Brave Bird do shit damage to everything in UU now like Rhyperior, Aggron, Omastar, and Steelix. Crobat isn't some defensive god like Cresselia. Taunting stuff means it's gonna take hits, and the SR weakness helps in disposing of it quickly. Plus, its not like you can't see a Crobat switch-in coming and go to your appropriate counter. And as someone mentioned, there are a ton of leads now that would dispose of Crobat without any trouble, like Mesprit and Scarf Uxie. The metagame is completely different than the one Crobat dominated over the likes of Spikes Roserade and LO Shaymin. Crobat's usage was primarily due to the ability to check these above threats and dispose of them easy.

Much different metagame now, you really are underestimating the differences or flat out being ignorant. The reason Crobat was banned was because hyperoffensive teams were the shit in UU during its time, which is the reason it checked 90% of teams. Few people used stall teams that disposed of Crobat without issue. Everyone was having fun with their Honchcrow / Shaymin / Roserade / Crobat / Blaziken teams, no wonder Crobat killed 90% of teams...
 
I am rather curious about another Crobat metagame now. I wasn't that great at UU when it was around, but after it left I remember a LOT of instances in which I wanted Crobat in a team slot. I kind of figured it was too "perfect" in its role for UU to handle. Maybe it's different now.
 
I don't care what happens with Crobat, just don't let Porygon-Z back into UU. You're only fooling yourself if you think it's any less broken than it was the first time. Cresselia wasn't relevant to it in any way.
 
Any offensive threat found broken while Cresselia, the only thing ever to be banned under the defensive char, is not worthy of a retest. If it's broken with that behemoth, it's still broken... at least how I see it.
 
Rolf said:
Any offensive threat found broken while Cresselia, the only thing ever to be banned under the defensive char, is not worthy of a retest. If it's broken with that behemoth, it's still broken... at least how I see it.
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Not necessarily. As I said earlier, I think people were so pre-occupied with Cress that they left themselves ludicrously open to PZ. I mean, I used a NP PZ lead and literally 6-0'd a good many players. These teams had gaping weaknesses and simply could not defend both fronts simultaneously. People also tend to exaggerate PZ's offensive capabilities, "OMG it can sweep every team in existance!!!!!! banstick!"

Well, it can't.

NP PZ is easily dismanted with priority/Scarfer. Versions with recover lacked hp ground or fighting, allowing chansey and Registeel to wall all day long.

The Download Scarf set was a menace to extremely frail offensive teams, but could only really trick a scarf to cripple dedicated Walls. Again, the lack of coverage allowed it to be forced out, and with spikes support it soon perished.
 
That's a very weak argument for Porygon-Z not being broken. Chansey, Registeel, and maybe Regirock that can be considered counters, or at least safe switch-ins most of the time. Not only is that a pathetic list, but you're still on your toes hoping Tri Attack doesn't give you any status or your wall doesn't get tricked.

Then you have the rest of UU, which can't stop it in the slightest. That is, unless we're going to pull a Salamence and say, "Predict what huge offense, good speed, and perfect coverage is going to do every single time and it won't be broken!"
 
I forgot who started using it, but it was used specifically to destroy awful counters/checks like those, but Download Lum Z also shits all over all of them. NP Download Tri Attack 2hko's Chansey with SR up basically whilst it feebly does nothing back to P-Z. The others don't stand a chance. Realistically, getting +5 in 2 turns with Download Lum-z was really easy.

Also you're underestimating P-Z's bulk severely. To put this in perspective, CB Aqua Jet from Azumarril does 60% max to 0/0 P-Z. So i think its safe to say that the only priority doing anything to P-Z is Tech Mach Punch.
 
Any offensive threat found broken while Cresselia, the only thing ever to be banned under the defensive char, is not worthy of a retest. If it's broken with that behemoth, it's still broken... at least how I see it.
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Rain...? Several rogue offensive threats were arguably better because there was no room on many teams to deal with them (because of Cresselia). That said, I don't think that I'd support a retest.
 
Rain wasn't found to be broken though, and after all the hype subsided, I'm quite sure most of us don't think Rain Dance is broken any more anyway.
 
The reason Rain wasn't found so broken anymore is because people found ways to deal with rain and play around it that didnt really make their teams crippled to other play styles at the same team. i.e Nasty Plot toxicroak.
 
if you are going to whine abot how stagnant it is, nominate sometbing or build an anti metagame team. force them to adapt.
 
Bad Ass said:
if you are going to whine abot how stagnant it is, nominate sometbing or build an anti metagame team. force them to adapt.
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I'm not whining, just stating what I feel are very common trends on the ladder at the moment; I'm sure that the anti-meta combination of Hitmonlee and Alakazam will soon be super common, just as Weezing and Milotic are now(and then something countering those will be common, etc).
and nominating Pokes just to nominate them seems kind of illogical; nothing is really able to completely muscle through or completely wall its counters, as were previous suspects, they are just annoying(e.g. Venusaur and Milotic).
*shrug*
 
Uh, the number of Venusaur nominations in the nominations thread is starting to grab my attention. No disrespect to franky or Jabba or whoever is advocating Venusaur to be BL, but I think it's starting to get a bit out of hand. Don't get me wrong, like Salamence, I am definitely not going to rage if he gets banned, quite the opposite. However, I'd question every argument to make sure that IF Venusaur gets named a Suspect and is banned, that banning was worth it and reasonable. I'll just address the main reasons why people believe Venusaur should be BL:

1) Unpredictability

A big argument for Venusaur's banning is its great movepool and the huge amount of sets that it can run. You never know what the Venusaur is running when it switches in. However, unpredictability is poor argument for banning a Pokemon. Say hi to Clefable. Clefable switches in with (relative) ease due to its decent bulk, say on your Rotom or something like that. You would wonder to yourself, what the hell is this thing running, right?? You could switch in your Hitmonlee anticipating a Thunder Wave and eat a boosted Double-Edge to the face and there are plenty of scenarios like this. You might say: "Well Clefable can only run 4 moveslots at once, she can't run Encore/Thunder Wave/Seismic Toss/Toxic/Trick/Double Edge/Fire Blast/Grass Knot/Softboiled/Calm Mind/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Wish @ Life Orb/Leftovers/Toxic Orb etc." You get my picture. However, if you look at this, you can go: "Wait a minute, this argument applies in the same way to Venusaur!!" Venusaur can't run SD/Sleep Powder/Power Whip/EQ/Return/Sludge Bomb/Leaf Storm/Energy Ball/Synthesis/Leech Seed/Substitute @ Life Orb/Leftovers either. Specially Defensive Weezing is a great check to Venusaur. Take the Sleep, use Sleep Talk and see what it's using. If it uses Swords Dance, go "oh crap" and go to Arcanine or something like that and get the Intimidate off, or go to Moltres to threaten it out or something. If it's Special, well take Leaf Storms and Sludge Bombs and heal off the damage while Venusaur loses its health to Life Orb. You get my picture. It's not like "Weezing is my ONLY counter" to Venusaur, plenty of Pokemon that might otherwise not do so well against Venusaur (Say Arcanine vs Special Venusaur), suddenly counters it when its moveset is revealed. I hate to break the Venusaur bubble, but as versatile as it is (Not a criteria for BL), every set is completely counterable.

2) Sleep Powder

Ah yes, Sleep Powder. We all hate the Sleep condition. Is Sleep Clause not enough for everyone?? Sleep absorbers exist for a reason. Let's bring up another example: Breloom. While Venusaur is causing a stir in UU, Breloom isn't anywhere near Suspect status in OU. Yes, you can say Celebi counters Breloom quite efficiently, but like how Venusaur can get past Specially Defensive Weezing, Breloom can get Celebi if it either i) Gets lucky with Sleep or 2) It has an underrated Breloom option in Facade, which can kill Celebi before it wakes up. Does Breloom automatically fit the Support Characteristic because it Spored a Pokemon?? Not necessarily. Sleep is a dick move, I agree, but on the big context of things, it isn't broken in my opinion.

3) Aesthetics

Lol I just wanted to put this in because Venusaur is as ugly as hell. I guess those who read this should understand what I mean.

Okay, that kind of answers the main complaints leveled at Venusaur. Feel free to discuss this, I'm not in any rush. As I said, I don't give a crap about Venusaur getting banned, but I just want to make sure the ban is fully justified.
 
@shrang

There are two people who nominated Venusaur.

I can't say I'd miss Venusaur, but the closest thing to something broken in UU, in my opinion, is Milotic, which still isn't broken really with Venusaur around.
 
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