NP: UU - Silent Night

[MegaKick]

now your starting to sound like you want to ban stuff just too ban stuff. Mayby we should ban kakuna cause it counter's the greatness that is caterpie. Although venasaur and milotic are centralizing, if we ban venasaur, we're gonna ban milotic. if we ban milotic, we ban moltres. It goes on and on... something like that is less fun than this. We're never going to get perfect, cause some pokes are better than others. Get used to it. That's pokemon.
Although if that one triangle of venasaur/milotic/moltres was eliminated, things would get a lot better...

 

[Heysup]

now your starting to sound like you want to ban stuff just too ban stuff. Mayby we should ban kakuna cause it counter's the greatness that is caterpie. Although venasaur and milotic are centralizing, if we ban venasaur, we're gonna ban milotic. if we ban milotic, we ban moltres. It goes on and on... something like that is less fun than this. We're never going to get perfect, cause some pokes are better than others. Get used to it. That's pokemon.
Although if that one triangle of venasaur/milotic/moltres was eliminated, things would get a lot better...

"no if you ban milotic you ban moltres then you ban Venusaur that's bad"

"well if you banned all of them things would be better"

I don't think I've seen a better real life example of contradiction.

 

[PK Gaming]

Zzz

So lets start NU testing now???

Honestly now that's a plan we should focus on. The UU players (imo) are all really swell guys and galls should try it out. Hell, bringing up the issue to the higher ups could be a good plan of action too. UU feels "done" or complete to me.

 

[umbarsc]

A fun combo to break these "cookie-cutter" balance teams of milo/venu/registeel/etc is CB Gabite + CB Kangaskhan. Their STABs have great neutrality against these kinds of teams, and can punch holes in their core with sheer strength (all variations of Milotic are 2HKOed by Outrage/Double-edge). Registeel is really the only thing that can switch into their STABs, so if one nails it on the switch with Earthquake or Low Kick the other can finish it off and sweep. The main problem is lack of opportunities to switch in, so that relies on some prediction on your part.

Tauros is another option over Kangaskhan because Intimidate + speed allows it to better handle sweepers like Scyther and Houndoom, though the loss of bulk and Scrappy is pretty big.

I think these mega-threads are the best weapon we have against the UU metagame growing stale. Instead of just bitching, post new ideas and threats that people will try out. An example is in the previous metagame when people were posting underutilized Pokemon and they would instantly appear all over the ladder, popularizing threats like Torterra and the Toxicroak+Houndoom combo. Then people started complaining ("STOP STEALING OUR SETS LURKERS") and it died out, leading to people bitching about the stale metagame.

Perfect example (of a good post): http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2755401&postcount=1565

 

[capefeather]

now your starting to sound like you want to ban stuff just too ban stuff. Mayby we should ban kakuna cause it counter's the greatness that is caterpie. Although venasaur and milotic are centralizing, if we ban venasaur, we're gonna ban milotic. if we ban milotic, we ban moltres. It goes on and on... something like that is less fun than this. We're never going to get perfect, cause some pokes are better than others. Get used to it. That's pokemon.

NO. WE GET ENOUGH OF THIS IN THE MENCE THREAD. JUST NO.

It may very well be that we need more time to figure out whether some of the UUs right now are broken or not. Raikou was voted UU like three times and then ZOMG LIFE ORB happened. Maybe something similar will happen to Venusaur. Personally, I want to stay away from banning Milotic until Venusaur is gone (if it does end up leaving at some future time).

I think these mega-threads are the best weapon we have against the UU metagame growing stale. Instead of just bitching, post new ideas and threats that people will try out. An example is in the previous metagame when people were posting underutilized Pokemon and they would instantly appear all over the ladder, popularizing threats like Torterra and the Toxicroak+Houndoom combo. Then people started complaining ("STOP STEALING OUR SETS LURKERS") and it died out, leading to people bitching about the stale metagame.

Thank you for posting this. UU lacks several elements that OU has that could help to shake up the environment. OU gets attention from the Smogcast, tournaments, etc. UU needs a "post your experiences" thread, if only for archival purposes.

 

[Vakama3]

I'd rather have a broken metagame than one in which there is no fun. We have "stopped" banning stuff way too early in my opinion with bulky hard hitters like Venusaur and Moltres, and impossible walls such as Milotic around.

When Black and White come you'll be getting your wish for a broken metagame. :U

If the metagame is getting stale (venasaur is quickly becoming one of my least favorite starters :\) simply shake things up by coming up with new ideas and threats, like the big load of Torterra last period. Post your ideas here, and do your part to come up with new ideas.

I've been running a Life Orb Electrode lead with HP Grass that works pretty well in taking out alot of the spike leads I encountered. Omastar and Rhyperior are always suprised when they are KO'd by an Electrode. However, it doesn't really deal with Uxie (Taunt is helpful), Ambipom (Explosion can beat the Life Orb ones, but can't really do much against sash leads without taking heavy damage), or Alakazam (Thunderbolt 2hkos and the sash prevents explosion). However, it was designed more around all of the spikers during the Froslass period, and since then spikers have died down. Food for though, I guess.

 

[capefeather]

When B/W comes the UU list will probably be completely different anyways. Not relevant.

 

[Thund91]

I'd rather have a broken metagame than one in which there is no fun. We have "stopped" banning stuff way too early in my opinion with bulky hard hitters like Venusaur and Moltres, and impossible walls such as Milotic around.

It's funny because a while ago you were the one saying how competitiveness should come before everything, even fun.

Like Uberrific said there will always be some "top-tier" Pokemon in any tier we play, even OU. There's a reason why Tyranitar, Heatran, and Gengar are all high up there while stuff like Heracross and Tentacruel are struggling. Same with UU. These Pokemon aren't broken but just "the best."

 

[EpitomeOfFailure]

Isn't this why the "Limbo" tier exists on the main site?

Limbo is tier for mons whose tiering is yet to be determined. Now that D/P has been out for ages it is *suprisingly* empty, but when B/W comes out a lot of things will end up there... but hopefully not for long.

@ NU-testing: Neverneverused? Things like this shouldn't be abanoned just because a neat name doesn't immedeatly pop up. :P
If there's just enough people to make the ball roll it should be worth it:
NU deserves some more love... and little less MaggyTyphoZard overload.

And about banning things...
While banning mons might create more and more broken and even more broken threaths (imagine if Blissey would really end up in Ubers) metagame of no change can easily lock up.

Counterargument can be made about Ubers constantly changing while the allowed mons have been the same since Darkrai/Skymin arrived.
Correct me if I am wrong, but it still seems, that not a lot of "new stuff" comes up in Ubers - the changing is mostly in usage (IE now CM/SpecsOgres are more reduant than ScarfOgres). Quickstall Mewtwo maybe? Even the tier including the little floating pink DIY master Mew sees quite few of new startegies - and new pairings are hard to come by with 24 Ubers and select few standard mons - since not much is actually viable there.

But back to UU: the point is, that change creates change in playing. Who is more skille competitive player, the new one storming ladder now, or equally faring older player who knows how to handle Crobat with Registeel & buddies? Also, experiencing the change drives forward the same cause CAP does: finding out how metagame works.

While completely balanced metagame is enjoyable - and within some limits promotes new sets and strategies - it doesn't comapre to what a different metagame (of course on top of it!) can afford. Think about it, you more experienced battlers, can you say you did't learn something from roasting Shaymins with Moltres' Fire Blast, throwing Azumarril on the way of Honchcrow's Heat Wave - and of course making Crobat cry in pain before Registeel's Zap Cannon?

 

[Flamewheeler]

Time to kill the ladder some more! xD I want to really experiment this time around. ;-)

 

[Stagnant]

Is it odd to complain that the meta-game allows too many Pokemon to become viable?

I mean, some Pokemon are doomed to NU however so many UU/ NFE Pokemon are viable it is almost ridiculous.

When I use something along the lines of SD Farfetchd with minimal team support in mind and still be successful, it seems to take a certain aspect out of the game.

 

[shrang]

Is it odd to complain that the meta-game allows too many Pokemon to become viable?

No, it's not. There is a state of "chaos", where the metagame has "too much variety". However, I don't think we've reached that yet, since you can't just mindlessly run something and be successful.

 

[black_cotton]

No, it's not. There is a state of "chaos", where the metagame has "too much variety". However, I don't think we've reached that yet, since you can't just mindlessly run something and be successful.

yup i agree the "much variety" doesn't mean a bad thing, it only means that since there is no poke that completely outclasses a great part of the tier, in one way or another, people are free to think out of the box(it's UU for god sake's) and try different pokes and differents playstyles and still be sucesful at least to some degree.

For that reason i don't agree with some people arguing that the metagame will get stable for the reason that are no suspects, in reality there is not even the "chaos" that you are reffering IMO, people trying news pokes can only take to the evolution of the meta and the discovers of new standarts.

 

[B-Lulz]

I think more the worry is that, with the excusion of Latias from OU and possibly Mence too you will see quite a few UU Pokemon go up to OU, more than say OUs dropping down.

 

[yond]

I definitely see a few pokemon moving up including Sceptile and Lanturn who both do really well in the ou tier. Also the massive increase in Raikou in ou is happening as far as I've seen so I guess in the end our banning him only mattered for about a month.

 

[Afrodisiac]

I'm completely for NU testing, as was suggested earlier. Stuff like Magmortar and Typhlosion really just rip into NU, and have made stall unviable like Porygon-Z used to in its brief stint in UU. The absence of Slowking from NU has just made it worse, and Qwil doesn't have as much bulk iirc. Really the only stuff that can even wall Magmortar to an extent are Flareon and Grumpig.

Agreed, NU testing is only reasonable since currently in NU you can't run stall or it'll most likely fail to work, since all these offensive Pokemons with these amazing stats are just demolishing other Pokemon, like Magmortar, Typhlosion, Charizard, Ninetails etc, and and when most of these huge threats are Fire types, they think of bringing Rain dance to every team now so they could resist the awful amount of Fire Sweepers raining in NU, we need to honestly test these Pokemon since I know they're not right in Neverused. Just simply in my opinion NU is a mess right now, and it needs to be fixed.

 

[SlottedPig]

It's surprising how many people run Spikes in this meta-game, especially considering Scyther's rising usage.

In all seriousness Hitmonlee is a ridiculous attacker, and with its natural Special Defense (although the crap HP hurts) it can easily set up a Substitute on Special Venusaur and Milotic and at least check Houndoom with little threat before it sets up.

 

[Alan]

Zzz

So lets start NU testing now???

Zzz

So lets start NU testing now???

Zzz

So lets start NU testing now???

Zzz

So lets start NU testing now???

Zzz

So lets start NU testing now???

please??????????????????????????? :)

Also, what is up with MixDoom?? It sounds so bad on paper, but its p good in practice.

 

[Pratty]

Hitmonlee is really cool. Close Combat off that attack is insane, 87 base speed is cool and it has the special defense to switch in.

What do you guys think of some kind of mixed Toxicroak? Something like Cross Chop/Gunk Shot/Focus Blast/Vacuum Wave?

You'd need something to take care of ghosts, like Drapion, Absol or Skunktank, but you have great base power. Cross Chop is 150 BP with crit chances, Gunk Shot is 180 BP, Focus Blast is also 180 BP and hits physical walls from the special side and Vacuum Wave is priority. You could also use Sucker Punch over Vacuum Wave to hit ghosts. In fact, Sucker Punch is probably a better idea...

 

[Stellar]

In all seriousness Hitmonlee is a ridiculous attacker, and with its natural Special Defense (although the crap HP hurts) it can easily set up a Substitute on Special Venusaur and Milotic and at least check Houndoom with little threat before it sets up.

Although I will agree that Hitmonlee is a phenomenal Pokémon in UU (2hkoing offensive Venusaur with Close Combat is ridiculously cool), you are vastly overrating its bulk.

0 Bold Leftovers Milotic Surf  
  vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Hitmonlee : 37.5% - 44.6%
0 Calm Leftovers Venusaur Energy Ball  
  vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Hitmonlee : 32.6% - 38.8%
252 Modest Life Orb Venusaur Energy Ball  
  vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Hitmonlee : 46.3% - 55%
252 Modest Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb  
  vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Hitmonlee : 52.5% - 62.4%
252 Modest Life Orb Venusaur Leaf Storm  
  vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Hitmonlee : 81.8% - 96.7%

Hitmonlee's Substitutes will be broken by any attack launched by either Milotic or Venusaur. You are better off setting up Substitute on Pokémon that are likely to switch out, such as Registeel. One particularly useful trait that Hitmonlee has is the ability to switch in on a predicted Thunder Wave from Registeel. It should also be mentioned that removing Ghost-types not named Spiritomb is relatively easy, so it is a good idea to pair Hitmonlee with a Pursuiter such as Drapion or Skuntank.

 

[FlareBlitz]

I'm planning on experimenting to my heart's content this metagame (not that I don't do that every metagame but even more so this time). First on my list of things to test is DD Whishcash. Being able to 2hko Milotic with +1 Earthquake is nothing to sneeze at and almost none of them run HP Grass anymore. Water/Ground hits so many things so hard, and the immunity to Thunderwave lets it set up on Registeel a lot easier. It can even make 101 subs! Like I said earlier, there are so many Pokemon in NU who can find a home in UU if used by the right player with the right attitude....

Edit: Turns out it can't 2hko Bold Milotic. Oh well. At least it can ohko Venusaur with Bounce, hehe.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm going to try out Plusle and Minun and their nasty plot passing shenanigans. Sure, they may seem outclassed by Ambipom, but I'll have to do some more testing.

 

[M BLADE]

I remember the times when i used Whiscash.
It works. Mostly because of it's nice defensive typing and the immunity to the ever common Thunder Wave.
A Chesto Berry Whiscash can work with DD/Earthquake/Stone Edge/Rest to surprise the hell out of people.
It does nothing to bulky grasses though. Moltres is a very VERY good partner for Whiscash.

Also, i'll see if i can use RP Regice again. Best troll is coming back, people!

 

[Thund91]

The best troll is obviously Pikachu. I'm still determined to build a team around it, although it does decent enough on my NFE team already. >___>

 

[reachzero]

Hi guys, see the "UU" in the thread title? This isn't a NU thread, go discuss that stuff somewhere else.