NP: UU - Silent Night

[SJCrew]

That one guy nominating Aggron makes a good point. On the occasion it does show up, I have noticed the absurd amount of damage Head Smash deals to everything. I've always wanted to try a CB set, but anytime I try CB anything, I end up going back to Rhyperior. >_>

Also, I've never thought of using Modest Alakazam, let alone Alakazam in general, so I'll put that on my to-do list too. I probably won't reach anything conclusive soon enough to support either motion, though.

 

[PK Gaming]

I thought that Aggron was a poor man's Rhyperior. :/
But yeah that CB set is mad strong and it's always nice to know that jolly CB Aggron 2HKOes Milotic, and outspeeds it almost 99% of the time. (you need over 86 speed EV's to outspeed. If that isn't speed creep I don't know what is)


And Thund nominating Alakazam was a huge shocker, I thought you loved Alakazam to death.

Edit: But couldn't that also be a result of the UU ladder being filled with poor players / your own skill? I mean Flareblitz dominates with Jynx too... Personally I've never found Alakazam to be broken. Really good, but never broken.

 

[Thund91]

And Thund nominating Alakazam was a huge shocker, I thought you loved Alakazam to death.

I do, but I just get tired of matches that go like "Sub, kill a poke, Sub, kill a poke, now switch to teammate who can abuse the weakened team," or "Sub, just sweep the entire team." It's ridiculous.

 

[Arcticblast]

Actually, a CM Uxie such as Rolf's recent QC post can take on Alakazam rather well, assuming it isn't Encored on CM or Substitute. If it Encores, it can be assumed that it also knows another non-damaging move, thus warranting a switch, possibly to Dugtrio, who may OHKO with Sucker Punch, or Spiritomb.

 

[Yuggles]

Actually, a CM Uxie such as Rolf's recent QC post can take on Alakazam rather well, assuming it isn't Encored on CM or Substitute. If it Encores, it can be assumed that it also knows another non-damaging move, thus warranting a switch, possibly to Dugtrio, who may OHKO with Sucker Punch, or Spiritomb.

what the heck is your point?

 

[Chateau]

That one guy nominating Aggron makes a good point. On the occasion it does show up, I have noticed the absurd amount of damage Head Smash deals to everything. I've always wanted to try a CB set, but anytime I try CB anything, I end up going back to Rhyperior. >_>

If anything is broken on Aggron (and I don't think there is), it's Rock Polish. It reaches a speed of 432, which is plenty to sweep UU, but Aggron's just too fragile Specially, and any Mach Punch in UU can ruin it. It needs far too much support to be broken on its own. But give it Screens, a reliable absorber of its weaknesses, and maybe a layer or two of Spikes, and it's gg.

 

[M BLADE]

what the heck is your point?

Hard to say.

Just use Skuntank. Pursuit = dead Alakazam. Sucker Punch plays some mindgames too.
Explosion is teh shit.

Anyway:I don't think we have any suspects now. Plain and simple. Venusaur is a prick, but not broken.
Aggron? Wow. It does hve a huge number of resists and Head Smash does hurt, but Aggron isn't something i would call broken.

 

[Thund91]

Actually, a CM Uxie such as Rolf's recent QC post can take on Alakazam rather well, assuming it isn't Encored on CM or Substitute. If it Encores, it can be assumed that it also knows another non-damaging move, thus warranting a switch, possibly to Dugtrio, who may OHKO with Sucker Punch, or Spiritomb.

Please explain to me how this can handle Alakazam when it's 2HKO'd by Signal Beam?

The only way this can handle Zam is if it already has 2 Calm Minds up, and no Zam is gonna switch into CM Uxie unless it has Encore.

And thank you for proving again that the only counter to Alakazam is Spiritomb.

.Just use Skuntank. Pursuit = dead Alakazam. Sucker Punch plays some mindgames too.

Look, this is the problem I have with Pursuiters, they are too few and far between. The only common user is Spiritomb. Yes, you have a few Drapion, Absol, and Houndoom around that run it, but they mostly use sweeper sets (SD/NP). Also, none of them can switch into Zam safely, which means they need to REVENGE KILL. Revenge kill = Zam already killed one Poke, and if you mispredict with Pursuit/Sucker Punch your revenge killer is DEAD.

 

[Arcticblast]

Please explain to me how this can handle Alakazam when it's 2HKO'd by Signal Beam?

Alakazam@Leftovers
Nature:Timid / Modest
Ability:Inner Focus / Synchronize
Ev's:4HP/252SpA/252Spe
-Calm Mind
-Encore
-Psychic
-Signal Beam / Focus Blast

It won't necessarily run Signal Beam. If it doesn't, Uxie walls it (outside of Encore) and can use its own Signal Beam. And I didn't say Spiritomb was the ONLY counter (I know you did, though), merely that it was a counter. Jolly Dugtrio can hit it with Night Slash if you predict correctly and come in on Encore/CM.

 

[Thund91]

It won't necessarily run Signal Beam. If it doesn't, Uxie walls it (outside of Encore) and can use its own Signal Beam. And I didn't say Spiritomb was the ONLY counter (I know you did, though), merely that it was a counter. Jolly Dugtrio can hit it with Night Slash if you predict correctly and come in on Encore/CM.

Except for the fact that no Alakazam is gonna stay in on an Uxie if it doesn't have Signal Beam (especially if Uxie's set hasn't been revealed, Zam being annoyed of Thunder Wave / U-turn and all). So Uxie can switch in a few times on the CM Encore set if it doesn't have Signal Beam (and most of them do anyway), but it can't switch into repeated Psychics, it'll eventually lose, and that Uxie's primary option is Tbolt so.....Not to mention that Uxie is still raped by the Sub + 3 attacks set.

Except when thinking of Zam "counters" the only one that can pop into peoples heads is Spiritomb. Dugtrio is a terrible Zam counter as it can't switch into any attack, and has to rely on prediction to take it out, or it's dead. What are you going to do if Alakazam subs as you switch Dugtrio in? The problem is is that there is no offensive threat that can take a hit from Zam, so it's either kill or be killed. Seeing that Zam has 120 Speed and 135 Special Attack, it looks like he's going to be doing the killing. Once he kills the Poke he'll just switch out until he can knock another Poke out and the cycle continues.

I think people need to understand revenge killing is NOT helping you argue that Zam is UU. Rayquaza can be revenge killed by Cloyster, yay yay Rayquaza for UU?

 

[shrang]

Specially Defensive Spiritomb plays massive mindgames with Alakazam. Signal Beam is pretty much the only it's going to get hit. This is not mention, Thund, that the revenge kill argument does have a bit of weighting since you're nominating Kazam for the Offensive Characteristic. Here it is again:

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

This is also in the "Portrait of an Uber" page as well:

Capable of sweeping standard in common battle conditions with one turn of set up or less.

Here's how I define keywords in the characteristic (Straight from my final post in the godawful Salamence thread):

Common battle conditions: 1 layer of SR, Spikes or Toxic Spikes, no screens (SS was removed due to this being UU)
Little to no effort (My definition) includes the quote above and little to no team support (Which means using lures is questionable).
Sweeping significant portion of teams = 3+ Pokemon in a row

Now, I can't really see Alakazam sweeping 3+ Pokemon in a row after one set-up. Yes, it might net you one, possibly two kills, but that's as far as Kazam is getting you before it dies or is forced out.

 

[M BLADE]

Look, this is the problem I have with Pursuiters, they are too few and far between. The only common user is Spiritomb. Yes, you have a few Drapion, Absol, and Houndoom around that run it, but they mostly use sweeper sets (SD/NP). Also, none of them can switch into Zam safely, which means they need to REVENGE KILL. Revenge kill = Zam already killed one Poke, and if you mispredict with Pursuit/Sucker Punch your revenge killer is DEAD.

Let's go. About Pursuit users:

They are few because they have better things to do.
Spiritomb and Skuntank are made for abusing Pursuit mainly.
I see those as the best Pursuit users out there (Spiritomb has more bulk and it's overall better, while Skuntank works for a quick Pursuit and Explode).

Anyway: Skuntank can switch into Psychic or sub, break the sub, and then...
I always used one to avoid being 2HKOed by 2 LO Thunderbolts from Missy ( or a +2 TBolt), and LO Signal Beam does 36.6% - 43.6% to it.

The spread was 228 HP/ 252 atk and the rest on speed.

Against this spread, Kazam can't get through. Or it switches if thankfully gets behind a sub, or it gets KOed.
It will have low health; but that's what Explosion or Sucker Punch are for (and consequently Skuntank has done it's job)

I know it isn't the standard one, but i think this spread is better suited for UU IMO.

PS: Modest Kazam does 40.6% - 47.5% to it.
Fail Bast can 2HKO, but in my defense it can miss too lol



Just wanted to share this. Considering only the SubEncore set.






BUT i know how Alakazam can be dangerous, and the SubEncore is very good at cleaning and dealing damage. Without priority, Scarfer or Pursuiter, Alakazam WILL be hard to take out.

I don't feel Alakazam is suspect either. It is very powerful one, indeed, but not "almost impossible to wall".
Also, it won't take any priority. Ever.

 

[Conflict]

Specially Defensive Spiritomb plays massive mindgames with Alakazam. Signal Beam is pretty much the only it's going to get hit.

Just correcting this - Grass Knot does a shitload to spiritomb (30%+) and Shadow Ball hits it hard too.

I used a combination of SDef-Milotic+Umbreon+SDef-Missy to cover Alakazam in the last Metagame and even then i wanst really save against him (Chansey aint no Counter when it is 2hkod....).

Alakazam is a beast but he has problems switching in, which makes him less awesome.

Anyway: Skuntank can switch into Psychic or sub, break the sub, and then...
I always used one to avoid being 2HKOed by 2 LO Thunderbolts from Missy ( or a +2 TBolt), and LO Signal Beam does 36.6% - 43.6% to it.

The spread was 228 HP/ 252 atk and the rest on speed.

Against this spread, Kazam can't get through. Or it switches if thankfully gets behind a sub, or it gets KOed.
It will have low health; but that's what Explosion or Sucker Punch are for (and consequently Skuntank has done it's job)

Uh Skunktank aint save against Alakazam.
If he subs on the Switch-Out (which he should) he can Focus Blast your Skunktank.

Timid LO Focus Blast vs. your Skunktank-Spread: 64.4% - 76.2%
Modest LO Focus Blast vs. your Skunktank-Spread: 70.8% - 83.7%

I find it hilarious that you name this a counter. After you take that much damage it becomes a gamble between Pursuit/Sucker Punch to win vs. Alakazam which aint save.

 

[Thund91]

Now, I can't really see Alakazam sweeping 3+ Pokemon in a row after one set-up. Yes, it might net you one, possibly two kills, but that's as far as Kazam is getting you before it dies or is forced out.

That's just it, all it needs is that Substitute or Calm Mind to sweep through a large portion of teams. I've done it, and others have done it. Fuck I've been swept by a few myself.

Bolded part = Thank you for helping me. It kills a Pokemon and is forced out. Alakazam will just come back in and kill another. Forced out again? Come back in later and kill another, there's 3 Pokemon for you. I didn't know to fulfill the offensive characteristic you had to sweep the entire team in one go? In that case Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega shouldn't have been deemed broken. Staraptor can't sweep teams in one go either, retest please?

@M Blade=Another shaky "counter" at best. And you don't have to Fail Blast twice, you can go for Signal Beam + Fail Blast.
And I'd hate to bring this up but...

| 75 | Skuntank | 2991 | 2.13 |

Zam Doesn't have to worry about Skuntank

 

[Arcticblast]

Now, I can't really see Alakazam sweeping 3+ Pokemon in a row after one set-up. Yes, it might net you one, possibly two kills, but that's as far as Kazam is getting you before it dies or is forced out.

Speaking of this, what Zam can or can't beat all depends on its moveset. If it runs Signal Beam, it loses to Registeel. If it runs FB, it loses to Uxie. Even with Shadow Ball, it loses to Spiritomb. All three of the above can be a pain to any team. So it killed your Pokemon, now you know some of its moves. Alakazam can be hard to predict, but once you know its moveset it can be beaten. For the record, I am rarely swept by Alakazam.

Just correcting this - Grass Knot does a shitload to spiritomb (30%+) and Shadow Ball hits it hard too.

Signal Beam does more than GK.

 

[M BLADE]

Uh Skunktank aint save against Alakazam.
If he subs on the Switch-Out (which he should) he can Focus Blast your Skunktank.

Timid LO Focus Blast vs. your Skunktank-Spread: 64.4% - 76.2%
Modest LO Focus Blast vs. your Skunktank-Spread: 70.8% - 83.7%

I find it hilarious that you name this a counter. After you take that much damage it becomes a gamble between Pursuit/Sucker Punch to win vs. Alakazam which aint save.

Corrected the part. No Focus Blast, only Signal Beam.

@M Blade=Another shaky "counter" at best. And you don't have to Fail Blast twice, you can go for Signal Beam + Fail Blast.
And I'd hate to bring this up but...

And yet another correction: i'm considering the SubEncore set only.
Since you use it a lot, and all this.

Also, i just wanted to share that lol






Back to the reality: I still can't buy Kazam as a suspect. Being hard to wall isn't the question, but it's the poke as a overall.
You take one poke out, but you're open to pretty much any priority or Pursuiter right after. I don't like that. He should last for a while.

 

[Thund91]

Speaking of this, what Zam can or can't beat all depends on its moveset. If it runs Signal Beam, it loses to Registeel. If it runs FB, it loses to Uxie. Even with Shadow Ball, it loses to Spiritomb. All three of the above can be a pain to any team. So it killed your Pokemon, now you know some of its moves. Alakazam can be hard to predict, but once you know its moveset it can be beaten. For the record, I am rarely swept by Alakazam.

Signal Beam does more than GK.

Except most Zam use all 3 moves together (Specs + Sub 3 attacks). You're bringing up the CM Encore Zam set as if that's his most used set/only set, I only included that set in the nomination to show that Alakazam can get through his usual "counters" relatively easily.

And GK has 100 BP on Spiritomb. 100 > 75.

 

[Conflict]

Speaking of this, what Zam can or can't beat all depends on its moveset. If it runs Signal Beam, it loses to Registeel. If it runs FB, it loses to Uxie. Even with Shadow Ball, it loses to Spiritomb. All three of the above can be a pain to any team. So it killed your Pokemon, now you know some of its moves. Alakazam can be hard to predict, but once you know its moveset it can be beaten. For the record, I am rarely swept by Alakazam.

The LO-Setruns Sub, Psychic, Focus Blast, Signal Beam/Shadow Ball/Grass Knot.
Grass Knot can be used to get past some Pokes better (i.e. Spiritomb/Milotic/Slowbro/Slowking, etc. pp. but you cant do shit to any standard psychics - thankfully you can most of them Pursuit to Death with CB-Drapion or such shit).
So its only really save counter remains Spiritomb. I should really built a Team around Alakazam to prove he is a force to be reckoned with and make Thund's job easier.

Signal Beam does more than GK.

Hell no, calc these please before you dare to bring your flawed logic up against me. GK has 100 BP against Tomb, Signal Beam only 75 - just for the record.

 

[jamashawalker]

.

Bolded part = Thank you for helping me. It kills a Pokemon and is forced out. Alakazam will just come back in and kill another. Forced out again? Come back in later and kill another, there's 3 Pokemon for you. I didn't know to fulfill the offensive characteristic you had to sweep the entire team in one go? In that case Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega shouldn't have been deemed broken. Staraptor can't sweep teams in one go either, retest please?

Honchkrow can be said the same it NEVER swept...just came in and spammed brave bird and used any support move to those that resist it..and took out 2 or 3 pokes on the switch in

 

[Thund91]

Honchkrow can be said the same it NEVER swept...just came in and spammed brave bird and used any support move to those that resist it..

Thank you, totally forgot about Honchkrow. And people are bringing up the fact that Zam can't take priority when all these Pokemon (especially Yanmega) were wrecked by SR, limiting their switch ins.

Btw M Blade I use Sub + 3 attacks not Sub Encore -___-

 

[anti404]

isn't revenge killing not really arguable seeing that things such as Salamence could also be revenge killed?

 

[Conflict]

Well to be blunt - Proritiy is most of the time the only way to get rid of Alakazam.

The other way is too not let him Sub but that is easier said than done when he can come against Venusuar for example who acts as your check against the opponents LO-Milotic for example, which otherwise will sweep your team. Are you gonna take the risk and stay in just to break the Sub?
What will happen if he Psychics first?

50:50 Choice.... Oh Alakazam can run Moves like Reflect or Recover too.

If I remember right the old Lum-CM/Recover-Alakazam from 200 was pretty awesome against most special walls.

@Honchcrow: Well he was from my experience one of the Suspects who was dealt easier with as long as you outpredicts him. But IF he predicts correctly he wrecked your whole team, not to ention that he does a shitload of damage even WHEN you outpredicted him - leaving you open for other Pokes to sweep.
Its just that he learns Roost and had so many opportunities to use that move. He didnt even need Sucker Punch, a simple Set of BB, SPower, {Grass}, Roost fucked most balanced and stallish teams up. I hated that air force.

 

[Red Ink]

I'd be hell'a sceptic about switching Alakazam directly into Venusaur, to use your example as an example of how difficult Venusaur is to play around.

 

[yond]

Well to be blunt - Proritiy is most of the time the only way to get rid of Alakazam.

This statement is not 100% true considering you can easily switch in spiritomb (shadow sneak and pursuit), or bulky choice band drapion in on the sub or pyschic and just pursuit the Alakazam and kill it. "So I would say priority is Some of the time is the only way to get rid of Alakazam." I've never found Alakazam that much a problem because its hard for it to switch in alot and it isnt that much or a burden to carry a spiritomb or drapion (for example) on a team since they can be useful for other purposes on any team.

 

[Conflict]

Its an example so dont stretch it that far. You simply cant switch Alakazam into Venusaur, but you can come in after somethings faints or per Double Switch or...

You get it? Its just an plain example and nothing more. I dont wanted to create a whole Battle Log to show how Alakazam can be used properly, ya know.

Well even then you have a point - its hard to switch Alakazam in, which may be contributing to hold him at bay.

@Yondie: I doesnt say Priority is the only way to get rid of Alakazam.....

But for the record:

Modest LO Zam Focus Blast vs. CB-Drapion: 85-100% (assured Ohko with SR)

Modest LO Zam Focus Blast vs. SDef-Drapion: 48.3% - 57% (assured 2hko with SR)

And well when any team has to carry Spiritomb just to deal with Alakazam isnt this overcentralization?

Dont get me wrong though i am unsure about Alakazams tiering and cant say if he is clearly an BL or not.