NP: UU - Silent Night

[SJCrew]

I've seen some dick use Chansey to summon Rain and when I killed all the Rain sweepers, it stalled all my special attackers out. Physical Grass attackers like SD Venusaur, Leafeon, and Sceptile could probably make short work of any rain team, but if your opponent is using something like Uxie or Mesprit, it's a pretty safe bet it'll go up a second time.

 

[Smurf.]

You don't have to use obscure shit to counter Rain. Poliwrath, Toxicroak, Milotic, Tangrowth, Chansey, Kabutops, Qwilfish are all perfectly good Pokemon to run on any team.

How is Kabutops or Qwilfish dead weight against non-Rain?? They can sweep teams just fine when it isn't Raining. You don't have to "counter" Rain, you know, all you have to do is check it so you destroy it when Rain stops.

If we're talking about offense, (which I'm fairly sure we were), half of that list has no business being on that kind of team. Qwilfish?? outside of suicide spiking, I've yet to see one perform any other role. Toxicroak is a shaky as hell counter. Only Kabutops would seem a likely inclusion (usually in the form of an offensive spinner), and then you're relying on Stone Edge's notoriously bullshit accuracy. Kabutops also is powerless to stop something like uxie, registeel or ambipom setting up rain another time..

I remember my HO team used when Raikou was still UU, and I lost against Rain, like, once?? For the record, it was SR Dugtrio/LO Moltres/Shuca CM Raikou/SD Kabutops/Yache RP Torterra/LO Electrode. None of them stand out to be a REALLY good Rain check, Kabutops being a shaky one. Of course, I just ended up boning the rest of the Rain team with Raikou when the Rain stopped, but you get the idea.

Were any of these Rain users either PowertothePika, Flare, Aqualouis or Syrne? I mean, really, yache torterra gets ohko'd by omastar's IB with any hazard. Raikou is 2hko'd by surf, which means if you switch in its dead. LO electrode is ohko'd (oh yeah, and this isnt including the x2 STAB boost)... That team is entirely fuckked by one RD sweeper.

 

[shrang]

If we're talking about offense, (which I'm fairly sure we were), half of that list has no business being on that kind of team. Qwilfish?? outside of suicide spiking, I've yet to see one perform any other role. Toxicroak is a shaky as hell counter. Only Kabutops would seem a likely inclusion (usually in the form of an offensive spinner), and then you're relying on Stone Edge's notoriously bullshit accuracy. Kabutops also is powerless to stop something like uxie, registeel or ambipom setting up rain another time..

How is Kabutops powerless to stop Uxie getting up Rain?? +2 Waterfall or Stone Edge says hi. Even if you do set up Rain, does Kabutops really give a fuck?? Toxicroak isn't shaky at all, unless you're running something obscure like Zen Headbutt on Ludicolo or running Gorebyss and Omastar (Who can get outsped by Scarfers), you're not getting past Toxicroak easily, especially NP Toxicroak.

Were any of these Rain users either PowertothePika, Flare, Aqualouis or Syrne? I mean, really, yache torterra gets ohko'd by omastar's IB with any hazard. Raikou is 2hko'd by surf, which means if you switch in its dead. LO electrode is ohko'd (oh yeah, and this isnt including the x2 STAB boost)... That team is entirely fuckked by one RD sweeper.

Yet it beat many Rain users. As I said, if I get momentum first, Rain is getting 6-0'd. While the team looks completely fucked on theorymon, it only got beaten once or twice. This is probably the main difference here, the difference between theorymon and actually playtesting. Don't mention my better teams either, my first UU RMT team has not lost once. See my warstory if you want any more detail. If you want to talk about Rain vs my other teams, the only times I have lost are either i) I'm using one of my stupid gimmick teams or ii) I'm tilting in some way.

 

[Smurf.]

A half decent rain player would have you under so much offensive pressure Kabutops would never find a chance to SD. Uxie comes in at 100% after first round ends. Uxie is faster for one, and it lols at AJ. Also, if im not mistaken, Offensive spinning sets consist of SD/AJ/RS/SE.

Yes, its true that many Rain users are quite frankly dribblers who have no idea in the slightest. These same people could use salamence and never get a kill, does that make it OU? You didnt answer my question about beating Pttp, FB etc, so I can only presume these are the sort of rain users you're battling. I've seen and beaten them as well, but my contention is based on playing the well recognized members.

EDIT: I've faced these guys many times over, won some, but at the same time losing a significant amount too. I've used many various team styles, offense, balance, full stall, and from my experience, the fact that it is almost guarenteed a win against 2 of those playstyles is disconcerting.

 

[shrang]

A half decent rain player would have you under so much offensive pressure Kabutops would never find a chance to SD. Uxie comes in at 100% after first round ends. Uxie is faster for one, and it lols at AJ. Also, if im not mistaken, Offensive spinning sets consist of SD/AJ/RS/SE.

That team used a purely offensive Kabutops, which was SD/Waterfall/Stone Edge/AJ. Think rain Kabutops but without Rain. Rain is just a bonus. Supporting Uxies are usually slower anyway.

Yes, its true that many Rain users are quite frankly dribblers who have no idea in the slightest. These same people could use salamence and never get a kill, does that make it OU? You didnt answer my question about beating Pttp, FB etc, so I can only presume these are the sort of rain users you're battling. I've seen and beaten them as well, but my contention is based on playing the well recognized members.

I've played Flare twice, not with that team, but with my other team that I RMT'd. Once was in my Warstory. I hold a 2-0 lead with that team. Also, I've said this before as well. A good player using a good Pokemon will always make it good. Someone like Thund can use Lopunny really effectively. Does that mean it's broken?? I've played against people like Train Man as well. I have not lost very often at all against Rain.

 

[FlareBlitz]

His warstory was actually a game he won against me, although a lot of people accused the thread of being a bit biased due to both bad luck and poor play on my part. You can find it and read over it yourself to form your own impressions.

When I first championed Rain as a suspect-worthy playstyle, I did so primarily because the metagame was completely unprepared for it (for reference Toxicroak was sitting somewhere in low UU). After the initial rain rush people have wised up and including a water absorber, multiple water resists, or some random "i fuck rain" pokemon on their team. I'm still on the fence about whether this makes rain broken or not, because while the metagame also eventually adapted to Salamence and Latias (lol two-three steels per team) they were also ultimately considered too powerful for the tier.

I'd go back out there and put the fear of thunderstorms back in the tier but frankly, rain is just a really boring playstyle. You either get a swords dance on kabutops/ludicolo and click Waterfall until you win or you lose because your opponent managed to crit your rain setters and set up Mismagius behind a sub. It's very inconsistent, luck-oriented, and ultimately boring, so it's not very appealing compared to my highly consistent and successful bulky offense teams.

 

[shrang]

I'm still on the fence about whether this makes rain broken or not, because while the metagame also eventually adapted to Salamence and Latias (lol two-three steels per team) they were also ultimately considered too powerful for the tier.

The difference is that Mence and Latias still beat teams that have tried to adapt to them with reasonable efficiency, but one rain check on your team is usually enough to make the Rain user VERY miserable. Hell, you don't even have to have a check "specifically" tailored to beat Rain either, just make sure when you're building a team, you have Rain in mind. Mence and Latias were different because even when you built a team to counter it, they still had a pretty damn good chance at winning.

 

[Smurf.]

Mind PM'ing me your rain team?

 

[FlareBlitz]

Rain beats that have tried to adapt to them with reasonable efficiency...

Not sure what you mean by "one rain check is enough".

Let's go back and look at the list of rain checks. Note: I define a check as something that can switch in on most of a Pokemon's moveset while posing a threat to it and forcing it out.

Toxicroak: Ohko'd by +2 Stone Edge from Kabutops. Kabutops survives LO Vacuum Wave and obviously survives Sucker Punch. Ohko'd by Zen Headbutt from Physical ludicolo, Psychic from Gorebyss, and Earth Power from Omastar. Qwilfish can just blow up on it.

Jolly Kabutops: Ohko'd by +2 Aqua Jet. Doesn't ohko Ludicolo, Omastar, or Gorebyss while obviously being ohko'd back. Qwilfish is faster and kills it before it can do anything.

Venusaur: Offensive variants are 2hko'd by Kabutops' waterfall in the rain >_> Max/Max+ defensive variants can live through Waterfall -> Stone Edge I guess, although ultimately you're the loser for running a fucking physically defensive venusaur. Ludicolo KOs with Zen Headbutt and Surf -> Ice Beam. Gorebyss KOs with Surf -> Psychic. Qwilfish Poison Jabs or just blows up.

Milotic: Milotic handles Gorebyss and Omastar very well while handling Kabutops somewhat well. It loses easily to Ludicolo and Qwilfish.

Tangrowth/Leafeon: In the same category because they do the same thing: wall kabutops and physical ludicolo while losing to gorebyss, omastar, and special ludicolo.

From this list you can tell that no rain check covers everything on a rain team, and the only way you can consistently beat rain with one rain check is to either prevent rain from going up at all with some hax shenanigans or running multiple fast taunters, or hope you can make exactly the right switches for 8 turns.

From my experience with losing to people while using rain, the primary reasons I lost were:

-Raikou
-Sub abusers (Mismagius especially)

Raikou is gone, and while sub abusers are effective, you'll eventually get down to 24% health. Then what? Still have two turns of rain left...

Ultimately extremely good players can beat other extremely good players using rain only by significantly tailoring their team to beat it; however, it's often the case that adding multiple rain checks is not a bad thing because they're good for other things besides rain (as evidenced by Toxicroak usage skyrocketing and staying high) and any good team automatically has multiple rain checks by design anyway.

Whether this makes rain broken or not is open to interpretation.

Edit for smurf: I got rid of that team a long time ago, sorry. I only keep 6 teams around at any one point. It was really well optimized too, but the only thing I remember now are the members: bulky qwilfish, weezing (rain setter), uxie (specially defensive, rain setter), SD kabutops, SD ludicolo, specs gorebyss.

 

[shrang]

From this list you can tell that no rain check covers everything on a rain team, and the only way you can consistently beat rain with one rain check is to either prevent rain from going up at all with some hax shenanigans or running multiple fast taunters, or hope you can make exactly the right switches for 8 turns.

And you can't run every Swift Swimmer on one team.

Toxicroak: Ohko'd by +2 Stone Edge from Kabutops. Kabutops survives LO Vacuum Wave and obviously survives Sucker Punch. Ohko'd by Zen Headbutt from Physical ludicolo, Psychic from Gorebyss, and Earth Power from Omastar. Qwilfish can just blow up on it.

Jolly Kabutops: Ohko'd by +2 Aqua Jet. Doesn't ohko Ludicolo, Omastar, or Gorebyss while obviously being ohko'd back. Qwilfish is faster and kills it before it can do anything.

Who's going to let you get to +2?? People arguing for Rain are all like "+2 in Rain means you lose". Setting up Rain, switching to sweeper, Swords Dancing takes 3 turns. Even switching Venusaur into U-Turn lets you deal with at least 1 Rain sweeper, since none can OHKO unless you're running Specs Gorebyss or something (Which I'm going to switch out, since you're not setting up). Basically, consider, Rain goes up, Uxie uses U-Turn, in comes Venusaur. Kabutops comes in. Do you Swords Dance up or try to kill Venusaur?? Either way, Kabutops is losing. All the while, 3/8 rain turns is already up. If you're playing with your old style, you go back to Uxie and back to Kabu, that'll be like 6-7/8 teams gone. The person defending against Rain will already be preparing to curbstomp you when Rain stops.

Ultimately extremely good players can beat other extremely good players using rain only by significantly tailoring their team to beat it; however, it's often the case that adding multiple rain checks is not a bad thing because they're good for other things besides rain (as evidenced by Toxicroak usage skyrocketing and staying high).

This is very true. There are also Pokemon who aren't "specific Rain counters" that can check Rain should the time arise. Using my RMT as an example, none of the Pokemon on there are specifically used to beat Rain, but it defended against it very well.

Kabutops lead: Can kill slower, weakened Rain sweepers
Drapion: Toxic Spikes, also bulky enough to take physical hits and phaze them out
Tangrowth: Walls physical Rain sweepers
Rotom: Can revenge slower Rain sweepers like Gorebyss
Hitmontop: Can Mach Punch Kabutops, Sucker Punch (You can't stall out Sucker Punch either, since Rain is running out beforehand) others and stuff like that
Moltres: Comes in on Rain Dancers and Subs up, leaving you helpless

So even with just a team that isn't specifically tailored to beat Rain, it can still easily beat. Specifically tailored teams would fail, since they would lose to everything else.

 

[Thund91]

Calm Milotic + Tangrowth can handle pretty much all rain sweepers besides Qwilfish, I never had a problem with them (my Milo only takes 55 Max from Ludicolo's LO Energy Ball, meaning it could just stall it out).

 

[Bluewind]

Ok I was going to make a huge reply to this whole rain shit (that I have no idea why is being discussed), but it's clearly getting us nowhere. If you guys want so much to talk about it again, I recommend you either re-read the rain thread, remove every single piece of information that is already known and then post it here; or just go get a kick out of discussing in the rain thread itself.

@Thund: You have no means of knowing whether Ludicolo is physical or not. If you expect an Energy Ball and Recover with Milotic as it sets up an SD, you're up for some serious shit.

 

[capefeather]

Rain is basically a lesson in offensive synergy. You know which switches to make or you don't. You win some and you lose some because you can get outplayed. That's it. This is what has happened to me both using and facing rain. This is what's happened to most good UU players.

People risked nerfing CAP 11 for no reason because of misguided notions of offensive synergy. So please, let's not beat a horse that's been rotting since January because of bad theorymon.

 

[uragg]

Ok I was going to make a huge reply to this whole rain shit (that I have no idea why is being discussed), but it's clearly getting us nowhere. If you guys want so much to talk about it again, I recommend you either re-read the rain thread, remove every single piece of information that is already known and then post it here; or just go get a kick out of discussing in the rain thread itself.

Quoted for truth. Hell, the rain thread is still open, even though the fact that nobody has posted in it for 2+ months shows that the uu community doesn't think it's worth discussing anymore. I'm pretty sure most of us already know how threatening rain is and what the viable checks are and how they work.

 

[Bluewind]

So, these days, in one of my test matches against Eo, I found it rather interesting that he used Magcargo against me, and because discussing it is more interesting than talking about rain over and over again, I thought it would be cool to bring it to light. Some of the coolest attributes I noticed when playing against it is how he could perfectly check Arcanine, not having to fear Hidden Power Grass, WoW or Thunder Fang like Rhyperior, Regirock and Milotic do respectively (of course Toxic's still pretty bad, but I don't think there's something one can do about it). Added to that, Magcargo's support movepool is pretty amazing, being able to spread burn with Lava Plume and Flame Body, setting up Stealth Rocks and so on. Finally, he's pretty much one of the most reliable Moltres, Scyther (so boned if it's burned when using U-turn) and Swellow checks in the whole tier, and that has to account for something. Here's the set Eo used:,

Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SpA
Nature: Bold (+Def; -Atk)
- Flamethrower/Lava Pume
- Hidden Power Rock
- Recover
- Stealth Rock

More SpDef could be used I suppose if you want it to check things like Moltres better. Finally, to prove how good Magcargo is: <bad_ass> I've been impregnated by a Magcargo. I'm so proud.

 

[kd24]

Magcargo is a gimmick. Ok, it can counter Swellow and Moltres. So do plenty of other viable Pokemon that can also do something else. Cargo's Stealth Rock weakness really hinders it to the point that repeated switch-ins are extremely hard with the common weaknesses of Water, Fighting, Rock, and Ground (2 of which are 4x) floating around. Milotic and Regirock don't fear HP Grass or Thunder Fang anyway.

Magcargo fits a niche but any serious player should consider the better choices.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Wow, kd24, I am appalled at your inability to think with an open mind. Broad generalizations will get you nowhere - you have to consider the finer details. I do consider myself a serious player, and yet I do use Magcargo. Are players like IronBullet93, franky, nobo7086, etc consider serious players to you? If so, my Magcargo team defeated them along with probably all the other UU top players plenty. In addition to the stunning capabilities that Bluewind has noted in the post prior to yours, Magcargo's Rock typing enables it to wall assorted Normal-types, such as Kangaskhan, a trait that no other Pokemon outside of maybe Regirock can boast, and it lacks reliable recovery. Recover is a key selling point. Do note that no UU Normal- or Flying- resists possesses reliable recovery.

 

[Bad Ass]

Ah, Magcargo. It is not worth the huge liability that he carries with him to use him. Allowing every bulky water in the game a free switch in? Lots of things can OHKO him as well, due to his rather poor special defense (see: Venusaur).His typing may be good for a certain niche or walling one or two top ten pokemon, but otherwise I really dislike the use of Magcargo. Here is a list of things Magcargo can reliably wall:

moltres
arcanine
registeel
ambipom
uxie
weezing
swellow

That is raelly it. And most special pokemon in UU can easily O-2HKO him (Rotom, Sceptile, Venusaur, Milotic, Houndoom, Mismagius, Special Spiritomb, etc etc etc). Magcargo may be good if you have absolutely massive weaknesses to Arcanine, Swellow, and Ambipom. Otherwise, I think you will find it to be dead weight due to its's relative lack of any offense whatsoever, likelihood to be 2hko'd by much of the (largely specially dominated!) metagame, and terrible, terrible typing that allows weaknesses to four off the most common uu types (two 4x!)

 

[kd24]

I wouldn't even say it completely walls all of those - Weezing's Rest Stalk set will be a huge annoyance to kill, especially with the threat of Sludge Bomb Poisoning and I think Magcargo would be in for an unwelcome surprise if he switched into a Registeel Toxic.

Eo, please keep your head. I didn't call any of you guys "bad players". It is the ladder - do I have to remind you that Bluewind got to 1500+ with a Mono Poison-type team on the Ladder. Or that I have a winning record with Electric? Or that Bad_Ass can destroy with fire? Or that you, even you, can win with Mono-Psychic? Good players used it well - because those chances are easily given to you.

Something that is literally stopped by every other Pokemon other than a few offensive ones and a few defensive ones with a SR weakness and a deathwish for Milotic or even Venusaur is something I don't want near my team.

 

[Bluewind]

kd24, instead of just outright rejecting Magcargo based on the facts "boohoo, I'm killed by Milotic *back to the volcano*" read what was said about Magcargo. First he deals with some of the most threatening mons of this metagame, which is something, you can't deny, just awesome (handling the Moltres-Swellow/Scyther offensive core remarkably well as long as you can control the influx of hazards). Second it has a shit ton of weaknesses... so what? So does Celebi, and he works well enough; thus having in mind this thread loves using OU comparisions, I think I'm on safe grounds. Finally, calling people out and saying they aren't serious battlers for using Magcargo will take this discussion nowhere, because so far you haven't brought up a single pokémon that outclasses Magcargo or that can even do everything that has been mentioned. The ladder sucks? Agreed, but it doesn't mean the pokémon sucks, especially because most battles conducted that involved Magcargo were performed by good players OUTSIDE of the ladder.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

kd24, I cited examples of good players, not the ladder as a whole. Please read my points more carefully.

bad ass, do note that Magcargo can utilise Toxic in order to beat Water-type switch-ins. I also notice that you used Scyther on your latest team: how can you not see the problems posed by the threat that is Magcargo?

With those points addressed, while Magcargo is countered by many top threats in the metagame, the same can be said for any generic Fire-type. The difference is that Magcargo has a more defensive niche than Pokemon such as Arcanine and Moltres.

 

[Bad Ass]

Okay, attempting to ignore Bluewind's personal attacks...keep it mature >_>.

Maybe I don't have problems with Scyther because nobody uses it. even if people did, magcargo cannot take +2 u turn with rocks down as well as cb u turn with rocks...how do you fail to see the crippling stealth rock weakness that means it is troubled by switching into any physical attacker because it needs to recover, and thus cannot toxic a bulky water on the switch. you want to take prediction into this? next time i can go to venusaur / if you don't recover than i can likely 2hko you next time i am in. stealth rock is too disabilitating.

magcargo simply cannot switch in with the overwhelming prevalence of stealth rocks and spikes; spikestacking is a great practice in uu, and it destroys magcargo even more than stealth rock does.

and magcargo does not have a niche of any kind except its rock typing. arcanine has extremespeed; that niche is better than magcargo's which allows for a 4x weakness to ground and water, and a eak to fighting, neutrality to grass, and only affords him...one resistance?

@bluewind - moltres / swellow/scyther is almost never used these days; moltres fell to #16 and swellow and scyther lie somewhere in the twenties. and please stop making dumb comparisons; magcargo is NOTHING LIKE CELEBI! celebi has no sr weak, and isnt 4x weak to the two most common types, and doesn't have weaknesses to basically ALL the top types. celebi has 100 base speed and special defense and hp.....it also has thunder wave and these things called useful resistances instead of some shit normal type one.

 

[kd24]

Bluewind, you bring up Celebi, but I guess you don't realize how much actual use and synergy Celebi has in OU. Not only does he pair up with Heatran really well but he also supports the team a lot with Thunder Wave and being able to take down Bulky Waters and a plethora of Pokemon.

Magcargo takes down about 10 and doesn't support anyone while doing so. There are better options for partners out there. And for battling outside the ladder, maybe the fact you all used Magcargo and Magcargo weak teams to test has something to do with it...

Eo, I think you need to realize that Scyther is so uncommon in UU that Magcargo countering it is nice but rarely even needed. But even with that, Scyther can just U-Turn out while Magcargo has to switch into a crippling Stealth Rock weakness and the fact that he is SLOW. Any Pokemon Scyther U-turns to will simply outspeed and OHKO.

Magcargo just can't be switching around with so many entry hazards, as well as a weakness to a lot of Pokemon who set them up. Why don't you see this?

By the way, Magcargo has no real advantages to Arcanine (Intimidate) or Moltres (Pressure/Faster/Stronger/ETC) besides a "meh" Rock-typing that gives it more weaknesses letting you fall prey to stuff like Venusaur and other Grass-types. Don't be blinded to the cold hard facts because "you had some success".

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

kd24 / bad ass, Scyther is 4x SR weak. And you demeaned the competitiveness of the ladder earlier. Just because something isn't used a lot doesn't mean it's not good.

Magcargo's niche Rock-typing is very important; you can't compare it directly to a sweeper. It is meant to be used as a wall. Also Flame Body can burn Scyther on U-turns; I think that's a pretty good ability.

 

[Bluewind]

Ok, so you guys come and tell me Scyther isn't used much. Does that mean people shouldn't prepare for it? Scyther has been pretty much the hot topic of this stage, just as much as Torterra was on the last one; and that's definitely something I wouldn't ignore. Added to that, it still checks Swellow and Moltres. Some people run Calm 56 SpD Evs on Milotic in order to check Moltres, so what's wrong with using Magcargo and checking a whole slew of other mons? Oh, and what about Swellow, is it uncommon as well? Arcanine? I don't think these mons are uncommon at all, not like Rain, and people still prepare for it.

@Bad Ass: So, Magcargo can't take 2 Scyther U-turns with rocks up... let me tell you a small secret, when we assume SR is up on one side, let's assume it's on both, which means when Scyther gets to kill it, it'll be virtually dead with 1% HP and switching out as I get the momentum (comes in two times on SR before killing it). Oh, another small secret, Magcargo resists Bug, which means U-turn isn't a 2HKO.

@The anti-Magcargo force: What have I and Eo just said on our last posts? Celebi and Magcargo might be two different mons but they do support other guys. Tell me about a single Venusaur that wouldn't like to have its ass completely covered, not being revenged by Scyther, Moltres, Arcanine, Swellow. All of those happen to be some of Venusaur's biggest nemesis, and with Magcargo by his side, the two of them can make a very effective core, with Venusaur taking all those Fighting and Water moves you two so much are bitching about.