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NP: UU - Silent Night

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So you are saying that defensive Milotic uses Surf / Ice Beam / HP Grass / Recover? Really? The best overall set is Haze / HP Grass / Surf / Recover. IMO it is not debatable; Haze completely stops a number of threats (SD Feraligatr, CM Tomb, DD Altaria). Without HP Grass, you are not a counter to Azumarill and Feraligatr, two pokemon which Milotic is supposed to counter. Ice Beam is a waste of a moveslot on Milotic. Toxic is better than Ice Beam, but in overall usefulness I would go with HP Grass or Haze any day.
 
I actually agree with the sentiment that Ice Beam is a waste of a moveslot on Milotic unless you're running offensive, but I'm more or less contending the point that best > most used when they're usually the same thing. Unless, of course, we're dealing with two sets that just so happen to be equally used and awesome in every situation imaginable (lol DD/MixMence).
 
Bad Ass said:
So you are saying that defensive Milotic uses Surf / Ice Beam / HP Grass / Recover? Really? The best overall set is Haze / HP Grass / Surf / Recover. IMO it is not debatable; Haze completely stops a number of threats (SD Feraligatr, CM Tomb, DD Altaria). Without HP Grass, you are not a counter to Azumarill and Feraligatr, two pokemon which Milotic is supposed to counter. Ice Beam is a waste of a moveslot on Milotic. Toxic is better than Ice Beam, but in overall usefulness I would go with HP Grass or Haze any day.
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What the heck? He didn't even discuss Ice Beam in his post . . . he very clearly was talking about Toxic vs. Haze as the 4th move.

Personally, I think Milotic's move-set depends entirely on what your team's needs are, and also upon Milotic's EV spread. 252/252 SDef+ Milotic plays much differently from 252/252 Def+ Milotic, and I wish more people understood this while playing.
 
I can definitely see the merits of Ice Beam. With just HP Grass you are complete Croak bait, and with Ice Beam Leafeon and Sceptile (who you can actually hurt with Ice Beam and who typically don't carry recovery) get hurt, you can actually beat Tangrowth with it, and it's good against random shit like Altaria (without Ice Beam LO DD Altaria wrecks your shit)
 
A completely free swtch to Moltres / Scyther / (insert Fire/Flying type here) for one. The only Grass that always carries Synthesis is Venusaur, who you atleast weaken over time. All the other Grasses have poor special bulk and lose a big chunk of health taking an Ice Beam. I still agree Toxic / Haze are probably better options, but Ice Beam has its merits.
EDIT: Ninja'd in the 5 minutes thispost took to write on a phone -_-
 
And Torterra, you know, that big continent tank thing that will all too happily Wood Hammer your ass away as it swaps in for completely free on your Surf / HP Grass? Leafeon and Torterra are both warded off by Ice Beam and not much else, and both are quite significant threats to Milotic.

Random Pizzaman said:
The only Grass that always carries Synthesis is Venusaur, who you atleast weaken over time. All the other Grasses have poor special bulk and lose a big chunk of health taking an Ice Beam. I still agree Toxic / Haze are probably better options, but Ice Beam has its merits.
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Yeah, things like Sceptile, Torterra, Leafeon and Exeggutor worry much more about Ice Beam than any other move that Milotic can run, and against other defensive variants they basically have a free switch in.

Bad Ass said:
So you are saying that defensive Milotic uses Surf / Ice Beam / HP Grass / Recover? Really? The best overall set is Haze / HP Grass / Surf / Recover. IMO it is not debatable;
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I'd say the best set is very much team dependent, and on what it is you're looking for Milotic to do. If you want it to counter physical Water-types but at the same time have the means on your team to take repeated pounding from Grass-types every time Milotic comes in, then fine go with HP Grass. But I'd say Ice Beam or Toxic over either of the other two moves unless you have absolutely no way of dealing with Curse Pokemon and SD Feraligatr otherwise.
 
Just curious, when does this round finish?? I need to know when to do a ladder run to make sure I get voting rights lol =P
 
shrang said:
Just curious, when does this round finish?? I need to know when to do a ladder run to make sure I get voting rights lol =P
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Deadline was a while ago, I think we're just continuing until we get drop-downs I guess.
 
Hmmm... It seems like some people think HP Grass is better due to the fact that Ice Beam isn't all that useful against Venusaur. Well, there are other Grass Types out there that are very easily 2HKOed by Ice Beam. Sceptile, Tangrowth, Leafeon, Exeggutor, Torterra etc... There have been countless times when a team I was facing switched in Sceptile or something like that into my Surf, and then after I force them out with another Pokemon and my Milotic comes back in, it isn't very difficult to predict the Grass switch and use Ice Beam to knock it out.

I think one of the reasons some people don't like to use Ice Beam just for things like Eggy and Torterra is because tey outspeed you anyways and when you first come into battle with Milotic you have no way of knowing when they will switch in... But, when you run 56 Speed EVs you can still Surf on the switch, outspeed and knock it out with Ice Beam. Since some people don't run these EVs they may think Ice Beam's uses are very limited, but with them you can cover two threats that would otherwise be considered counters if you ran HP [Grass] + Surf
 
The EVs and moveset really depend on the team. Haze / HP Grass / Surf / Recover with 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe is probably the best set in general, but different teams call for different variations of Milotic. If your team covers no-defenses Sceptile pretty well defensively, for example, you might not have a problem with not running Ice Beam, since Sceptile can only switch in twice on Surf assuming Stealth Rock. If you absolutely need Adamant Torterra lured and KOed, though, 56 Spe with Ice Beam is also an option.
 
Perhaps Haze / HP Grass is more effective overall, but I always find Ice Beam / Toxic versions more annoying to face, because they can just Toxic everything in sight and wear down the Grass/Croak switch-ins with Ice Beam. That's probably because I've never used Feraligatr and I only use Leftovers Azumarill (easily toxic-stalled) though. And don't underestimate Ice Beam vs. Venusaur, it does like 45% switching in, which forces it to recover so your switchin doesn't eat a Life Orbed attack.

In fact, if you look at the list of Milotic counters brought up a couple of pages ago, almost all of them struggle against Ice Beam / Toxic versions.
 
I occasionally run a Specially Defensive SubPunchToxicroak with Taunt utilizing a spread of 252hp/60atk/196SpD. Standard Milotic Ice Beam fails to break sub. Excessive? Not necessarily because Croak can also check other threats more effectively.
 
hmph. I was always using 252HP/252Atk Adamant 'cause I was too lazy to actually make a good spread.
but yeah, way better spread there.
 
252/252 is better for SD ones (though I still support Jolly over Adamant), but bulky spreads tend to fit SubPuncher better. However, it isn't outright better, as fast offensive ones get the jump on things like Venusaur.
 
"Bulky Water" Milotic Ice Beam vs 252/128 Croak: 22.2% - 26.2%
"Bulky Water" Milotic Ice Beam vs 252/196 Croak: 20.3% - 24.1%

Im unsure on how damage is calculated through Sub but if damage doesn't round up then using 164 SpD Ev's change damage ratio to; 21.1% - 24.9%.
 
you can also lower your speed with ivs/brave so you're naturally slower than milotic, but that comes with the obvious and unfortunate consequence of being slower than torterra and friends (normally you only need 24 evs to beat adamant torterra off the top of my head). it could be worth it if you don't want to sacrifice too much attack though.
 
HP Grass v. Haze v. Ice Beam, eh?

Well the answer's the roll-your-eyes-oh-brother answer you always hear when trying to quantify two sets/moves/EV Spreads/hairstyles/Pokemon: Depends on the team.

Ice Beam for a 'Saur Weakness, Haze for a booster weakness, etc, etc.
 
Overhazard said:
"Bulky Water" Milotic Ice Beam vs 252/128 Croak: 22.2% - 26.2%
"Bulky Water" Milotic Ice Beam vs 252/196 Croak: 20.3% - 24.1%

Im unsure on how damage is calculated through Sub but if damage doesn't round up then using 164 SpD Ev's change damage ratio to; 21.1% - 24.9%.
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Percentages round down so the new spread would be better.
 
Bluewind said:
252/252 is better for SD ones (though I still support Jolly over Adamant), but bulky spreads tend to fit SubPuncher better. However, it isn't outright better, as fast offensive ones get the jump on things like Venusaur.
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yeah, I actually meant when I use SubPunch 'Croak, I tend to just stick 252HP/Atk with Adamant.
SD variants I always take Jolly to always outspeed Venusaur and blow them up with Ice Punch.
NP versions I'll occasionally run Modest because Vacuum Wave is more reliable than Sucker Punch, and so the extra speed isn't always so necessary.
kind of a continuation, but does anyone else find themselves using Toxicroak on a lot of the offensive teams they build? I always find him to be an exceedingly valuable member of my offensive teams.
 
Overhazard said:
"Bulky Water" Milotic Ice Beam vs 252/128 Croak: 22.2% - 26.2%
"Bulky Water" Milotic Ice Beam vs 252/196 Croak: 20.3% - 24.1%

Im unsure on how damage is calculated through Sub but if damage doesn't round up then using 164 SpD Ev's change damage ratio to; 21.1% - 24.9%.
Click to expand...
Actually the ideal spread would be 244 HP / 88 Atk / 176 SpA.

Max HP Toxicroak has 370 HP, meaning its Subs have 92 HP each. However, it can reduce its HP to 368 and save 8 EVs while keeping 92 HP subs.

0 SpA Milotic Ice Beam vs 244/176 Croak: 77 - 91 (20.92% - 24.73%)

Any less SpD, and Milotic has a tiny chance to deal 92 damage and break the sub. Yeah, I know I'm splitting hairs.
 
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