np: UU - Six Deadly Suspects

[diinbong]

I think all these Pokemon are vital to the metagame.

Mismagius: Blocks Rapid Spin and therefore makes Stall more viable, while also being able to switch in on Fighting-type attacks that beat so many of the common walls.

Shaymin: Beats bulky waters. Water-types would be hell if this thing was gone.

Clefable: Makes the Stall that Mismagius promotes beatable, but is beatable itself.

There's a real balance going on, and I personally like it.

 

[blue_light]

Clefable does not make stall more beatable, if you've played a stall team and had a clefable used against you by a decent player there is almost no chance of you winning. The advantage that thing has over stall is crazy. The more extreme the stall team is, the more vulnerable that team is to clefable.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I think all these Pokemon are vital to the metagame.

Mismagius: Blocks Rapid Spin and therefore makes Stall more viable, while also being able to switch in on Fighting-type attacks that beat so many of the common walls.

Shaymin: Beats bulky waters. Water-types would be hell if this thing was gone.

Clefable: Makes the Stall that Mismagius promotes beatable, but is beatable itself.

There's a real balance going on, and I personally like it.

Surely when you say Mismagius you mean Spiritomb, right? Msmagius doesn't exactly promote stall in that way because it can't switch in on physical spinners, whereas Spiritomb stands a good chance either way.

Also there are a lot more ways of beating bulky Waters than just Shaymin.

 

[Stagnant]

Shaymin: Beats bulky waters. Water-types would be hell if this thing was gone.

I disagree. I haven't used Shaymin since the Specs set of week one. There are other ways to break waters. Shaymin on the otherhand breaks ANYTHING that doesn't resist its 2-3 attacks.

 

[XenoIncognito]

Everyone and their grandmother are using rain dance teams. I'm putting money on it that Taunt Electrode is going to become the new #1 lead.

 

[Wyzra]

Actually, Mismagius can switch in on physical spinners and simply Will-O-Wsp and use her three excellent immunities. Also, Erazor, I don't think we have the option of banning Mismagius, say, right after the test, but probably we will be allowed to do the bold voting again.

 

[diinbong]

Surely when you say Mismagius you mean Spiritomb, right? Msmagius doesn't exactly promote stall in that way because it can't switch in on physical spinners, whereas Spiritomb stands a good chance either way.

Also there are a lot more ways of beating bulky Waters than just Shaymin.

Actually Mismagius can switch in on most Physical Spinners quite easily in my experience. The nice thing about Mismagius is that it can KO the Spinners once it gets in.

I disagree. I haven't used Shaymin since the Specs set of week one. There are other ways to break waters. Shaymin on the otherhand breaks ANYTHING that doesn't resist its 2-3 attacks.

Of course there are other ways to break Waters, but Shaymin is in no doubt the easiest and most popular choice.

 

[Darkmalice]

I see many Shaymin and Roserades. Not only do they deal massive damage with Seed Flare and Leaf Storm/Sludge Bomb respectively, but they can Rest and swap out to heal off the damage.

I must agree that Stall is near impossible in UU. Clefable laughs her head off at stall, forcing it to pHaze it away till it's the last pokemon, and then PP stall it (good luck with that when it can swap in for free). Toxic Spikes is rendered useless by the common grounded Poison pokemon, most notably Roserade. Toxicroak and Muk are also common. There is no good Spike user since Froslass was declared a suspect. The other Spike users - Cloyster, Omastar, Glalie and Cacturne have horrible defense typing and horrible HP. And there's no auto weather users to build up residual damage besides the stat-wise weak Hippopatas and Snover. Shaymin and Roserade also rip apart Stall tams thanks to Rest and Natural Cure healing off any damage they would take in the process.

 

[Astra [old]]

actually there is still a very good spiker in Roserade (who is on just about every stall team), who can both spike, absorb toxic spikes and rest off the damage she takes when she spikes and can switch in on Shaymin's Seed Flare. Roserade sets up easily on just about any water type. Also with all of the more offensive oriented Roserades running around, it makes an opponents job more difficult to predict if it is an offensive or defensive spiker version.

 

[Boingo]

Shaymin: Beats bulky waters. Water-types would be hell if this thing was gone.

There's billions of good Grass (and Electric) Types to beat Waters with in UU. Exeggutor, Meganium, Venusaur, Sceptile, to name just a few.

 

[diinbong]

For the last time poeple; there certainly are a lot more Pokemon able to beat bulky-waters than Shaymin, but they would be undeniably dominant if Shaymin was gone.

 

[Sonneh]

I have noticed that the teams feel more loose without these guys.

• The lead slot has been more loose now that Crobat is gone. Guys could set up Rain Dance easily and set up their Trick Rooms, etc. A lot of people I played are using frailer leads. Crobat had the combination of both speed and bulk and is the excellent fighting counter with x4 resistance to fight. I'm glad Crobat is gone.

• The switch outs are reduced due to Staraptors banning. I remember from watching battles that guys with Staraptor opposes to many switch ins. Now that Staraptor is banned players dont have to suffer switching in and out. Substitute / Close Combat / Brave Bird / Roost was probably Staraptors most broken set and it bruins all walls trying to wall it. Raikou is gone, and it means more people don't have to worry about switch out and getting swept by Sub CM sets.

That's my point of view for now.

 

[Khyl]

Speaking of bulky water counters, with Thunderbolt Magmortar can 2HKO most bulky waters. O.O I don't know why more people don't use it; it's a great wall breaker. It even kills Chansey with Cross Chop/Focus Punch.

Registeel is on a lot of teams as a generic supporter with stealth rock and thunder wave, and a good (sorta) shaymin switch-in.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

For the last time poeple; there certainly are a lot more Pokemon able to beat bulky-waters than Shaymin, but they would be undeniably dominant if Shaymin was gone.

Really? I'd be willing to deny that. Roserade can do a similar 'bulky Water check' role to Shaymin, then there's all the other Pokemon that people have mentioned. like Venusaur, Exeggutor, Ludicolo, Toxicroak, Lanturn, Lapras etc. All of them make decent checks and all are viable in this metagame.

The switch outs are reduced due to Staraptors banning. I remember from watching battles that guys with Staraptor opposes to many switch ins. Now that Staraptor is banned players dont have to suffer switching in and out. Substitute / Close Combat / Brave Bird / Roost was probably Staraptors most broken set and it bruins all walls trying to wall it. Raikou is gone, and it means more people don't have to worry about switch out and getting swept by Sub CM sets.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by 'switch-outs are reduced'. Are you saying that people switch less frequently now? Because that's not exactly true, or at least it's not directly attributable to Staraptor if it is. If anything, more switching would be related to a decrease in early entry hazards, in which case it would be the banning of Froslass that has had the dominant effect on this variable.

I also don't like the term 'most broken'. A Pokemon and/or set is either broken or it isn't. That Staraptor set doesn't break the metagame because it can actually be walled, however I'll admit that I'm currently leaning towards BL status for Staraptor atm because I believe that when taking into account all factors that it brings to the table, they add up to a slightly negative effect on the metagame.

Speaking of bulky water counters, with Thunderbolt Magmortar can 2HKO most bulky waters. O.O I don't know why more people don't use it; it's a great wall breaker. It even kills Chansey with Cross Chop/Focus Punch.

Because generally Blaziken does the job a lot better. For one thing Magmortars generally have to predict Chansey coming in to beat it, whereas Blaziken can OHKO clean the following turn, no matter how much health she has left. Neither are fast enough to sweep, and Blaziken's better overall offenses, secondary STAB and SR neutrality make it more efficient as a wallbreaker. Also I take it you didn't mean to use the word 'counter' lol.

 

[Sonneh]

I also don't like the term 'most broken'. A Pokemon and/or set is either broken or it isn't. That Staraptor set doesn't break the metagame because it can actually be walled, however I'll admit that I'm currently leaning towards BL status for Staraptor atm because I believe that when taking into account all factors that it brings to the table, they add up to a slightly negative effect on the metagame.

Brave Bird and Close Combat are good enough coverage only walled by Rotom which is very rare and still suffers a hefty amount of damage from Brave Bird behind a sub. The only true counter to it is Luxray which is also rare in usage. The set is broken itself because it wrecks walls that try to switch in it. About switching out less frequently to find an appopriate counter for these brokenmons is a +1. People don't have to worry about keeping these guys in check and constantly switch out.

 

[diinbong]

Lemmiwinks I wasn't the one who posted the Magmortar remark.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Lemmiwinks I wasn't the one who posted the Magmortar remark.

Sorry, I quoted manually and forgot to change the name. Fixed.

@KBlaze1987: A number of bulky Electrics can switch into that set and come out on top. I've used Raikou, Ampharos and Rotom in the past, and none of them had any problems with that set. As far as Rotom is concerned, it is not 2HKO'd and that's all that matters really. Raikou outruns and is only 2HKO'd, whilst if the Staraptor user was dumb enough to risk attacking Ampharos from behind a Sub, then frankly they could be my guest.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I honestly miss Gallade and Starapter. The threat of a massive Close Combat from something that actually has notable speed is sorely missed, and honestly the game is clogging up similarly to Old UU again. All you have to do is carry 3-4 shaymin/missy counters and you can pretty much outstall the whole game. >.>

Ah, except rain. Rain is . . . well yeah, powerful. But it does require set up again.

 

[Sonneh]

I honestly miss Gallade and Starapter. The threat of a massive Close Combat from something that actually has notable speed is sorely missed, and honestly the game is clogging up similarly to Old UU again. All you have to do is carry a 3-4 shaymin/missy counters and you can pretty much outstall the whole game. >.>

Ah, except rain. Rain is . . . well yeah, powerful. But it does require set up again.

Slowbro does a nice job with rain dance teams. Thunder Wave should do the trick on both Ludicolo and Qwillfish who are really the most threatening sweepers with rain dance on the field. Ludicolo can do alright damage with Grass Knot and can be crippled by Thunder Wave. Qwillfish gets Thunder Wave unless it explodes, but it may require a little prediction.

 

[Sheepman]

I don't really see shaymin becoming suspect, grass has always been a shitty attacking type and once it runs out of seed flare pp it's nothing but dead weight.

Rain dance teams are honestly quite frightening but I've been tweaking my team (protect/wish clefable over softboiled to eat up more rain turns, poliwrath with water absorb to play mind games with switching, more sp def evs on my spiritomb and a + sp def nature, and twave on my slowbro instead of toxic) and I'm confident that I have a decent chance versus anyone using a rain dance team and I don't think anything about them should be banned. I do wish abomasnow was still allowed in order to discourage such rampant use of rain teams, but froslass, crobat, and staraptor should stay banned though.

I also think banning clefable would be a huge mistake, a stall team, by its very definition, should be able to pp stall encore (quite easy with pressure from a legendary bird or spiritomb), leaving the damn thing prostrate. The real stall killer running around at the moment is toxic arcanine, that dude can take out everything except sleeptalk milotic/hariyama if you keep him healthy with wish support. Back to clefable, any team with that carries more than a modicum of offense has the ability to kill the thing with proper prediction. Clefable is no blissey, he might not be as susceptible to the physical spectrum, but he doesn't shrugg off special attacks as easily either, he can be taken down via LO shaymin, blazed fire blasts will fuck him up, and an entire slew of choice specs users will make him think twice about staying in and risking a KO from an inevitable crit.

 

[panamaxis]

Uh, sheep can you name me a pokemon that can switch into a subseeder with airslash and seedflare? Because, there are seriously not many. Anything slower is just gonna get outstalled on the switch. And just before you say it, scarf moltres is gonna get screwed by SR, only being able to switch in once. Also sheep you are forgetting about aromatherapy, which is not that rare on stall teams.

 

[Relictivity]

Clefable is no blissey, he might not be as susceptible to the physical spectrum, but he doesn't shrugg off special attacks as easily either, he can be taken down via LO shaymin, blazed fire blasts will fuck him up, and an entire slew of choice specs users will make him think twice about staying in and risking a KO from an inevitable crit.

Erm... you are talking about wall breakers on a stall team, which isn't always true. Stall Shaymin are more likely to run a subseed set, and stalling teams don't often run specs, at least mine does not. Clefable IS anti-stall, but neutral teams (having both stall and offense) are anti-Clefable.

 

[pi face]

Why do people forget Haryiama is a good poke on stall teams?

 

[-Meowth-]

Shaymin. Shaymin now rips through whole teams if used right.Rest+Natural Cure+100 base defenses and HP make it superior.As long as Raikou,Abomasnow and Staraptor were available we had something like a "counter".But now it really is almost unstopable.Moltres and Charizard are both 4x SR weak,so they are difficult to use. And if you use a Rapid Spinner that is 2 Pokemon just to counter one.




Taunt is everywhere.Many Ambipom leads,since Crobat left.


Haven't seen any Snovers yet.

 

[Erazor]

I actually played against a hail team with Snover, and I saw that hail was just as deadly as it was, with maybe a little less bulk. But it was StallRein who won the game for my opponent.

If we banned Abomasnow for its hail support, I'm now seriously considering nominating Snover as well.