Here's hoping you kids don't go full retard and think that Serperior isn't broken. Serperior isn't as easy-mode as Terrakion or Mega Pinsir were but every one of its multiple sets can basically solo a given playstyle.
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np: UU Stage 2.1 - You Are Invited
- Thread starter Sam
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Serperior puts a massive strain on teambuilding due to its limited pool of switch ins to choose from (which it has Glare to cripple) and can often turn losing games around effortlessly.
I don't think much else needs to be said about this Pokemon. Ban it in a heartbeat.
I don't think much else needs to be said about this Pokemon. Ban it in a heartbeat.
av zebstrika tho
Gonna post my thoughts on the grass snake. I never used it personally but I could feel the presence it span on team building. I always felt I needed Crobat, or some counter to the snake. Being a mostly balance player, having a bulky water, or ground type always made me think about double switching to prevent serperior from setting up for free. Overall I see it getting banned not because it's impossible to handle, but more the constrictive nature it brings to team building.
Gonna repost the paragraph from the previous np thread for why Serperior was banned
After the metagame settled without Serperior, all of this paragraph still holds. The fact that it can set up at the same time as using a powerful STAB move is what differentiates it from every other setup sweeper. Mega Aero being arguably the best Pokemon in the tier forces a lot of teams to run the bulky Water- and Ground-types that Serperior preys on. And you really cannot reliably revenge kill it without being faster, because +2 Leaf Storms are doing a hell of a lot of damage, even to resisted Pokemon. "Checks" like Entei, Heracross (non-scarfed), and Infernape all get 2HKOd if they try switching in with no hazards, and all have a chance to get OHKO'd by a +2 Life Orb Leaf Storm after Stealth Rock damage. As far as defensive answers go, there are VERY few: SpDef Amoonguss, SpDef Roserade, and Goodra don't fear anything Serperior has to offer, but that's about it as far as I can tell. Every other Pokemon is either beaten by Taunt + Synthesis or heavily crippled by Glare (Crobat can still check it even after it's been paralyzed, though). It's pretty heavy restriction to teambuilding because it's almost impossible to switch into unless you have one of the aforementioned Pokemon, and its revenge killers are also very limited and none want to switch in.
can we free victini now
in all honesty its about time :o
in all honesty its about time :o
I am definitely not biased in my opinion when i say that serperior should not be banned.
Btw, can someone give me a clear cut definition of what does "broken" mean. Does it simply mean overpowered or does it just mean restrictive to teambuiliding. If it is restricitng to teambuilding why isn't a pokemon like suicune "broken"?
Btw, can someone give me a clear cut definition of what does "broken" mean. Does it simply mean overpowered or does it just mean restrictive to teambuiliding. If it is restricitng to teambuilding why isn't a pokemon like suicune "broken"?
Lol Serperior is retarded, plain and simple.
I mean it sort of does the same things it does in OU but the difference is that the tier is so susceptible to Serperior based on the trends such as bulky waters and defensive cores that have 0 real answers to it that it gets away with stuff it can't excel at in OU. Like Taunt / Synthesis is unheard of in OU because it's such a liability to run that at times based on the offensive nature of teams making grass type a poor defensive typing and so much diversity. Due to this it can just poop on stall and for whatever reason it can't handle something, which won't be a lot of things since it's really good, it has 5 partners in the back to supplement it. The thing with UU is that the diversity is not so much matchup based from what I can see in comparison to OU so players have a limited pool of options that the Serperior user can take advantage of based on team needs and as such makes it easier to capitalize with Serperior based on the trends taking place an lack of legitimate counter play against Serperior.
Like if offense and scarf users are a burden Glare just turns all these offensive switch-ins into deadweight such as M-Pidgeot which can be taken advantage of later due to the ease of setting up a Leaf Storm and just cleaning so easily based on its linear but effective coverage options such as HP Fire. Then you take into account on a grander scale it has tools such as Taunt to break stall even more easily or just pressure utility users, Substitute which is easy as hell to put up because it pressures a lot of stuff out to the players emergency button which just adds on to its capabilities as a threat. There is so little in the tier that wants to be realistically taking on Serperior as not only from a 1v1 standpoint but as a team player it just excels at its job perfectly under the hands of a capable player.
I guess the overcentralization can be seen with a lot of Ice Beam users in particular water types with Serperior being a factor but I think this has more to do with Salamence than Serperior so this point isn't exactly too strong if we're talking about a ban perspective I guess. Overall I think its offensive abilities along with the utility it wields to break down a variety of teams is just way too much for UU to handled and is a bit ridiculous.
I mean it sort of does the same things it does in OU but the difference is that the tier is so susceptible to Serperior based on the trends such as bulky waters and defensive cores that have 0 real answers to it that it gets away with stuff it can't excel at in OU. Like Taunt / Synthesis is unheard of in OU because it's such a liability to run that at times based on the offensive nature of teams making grass type a poor defensive typing and so much diversity. Due to this it can just poop on stall and for whatever reason it can't handle something, which won't be a lot of things since it's really good, it has 5 partners in the back to supplement it. The thing with UU is that the diversity is not so much matchup based from what I can see in comparison to OU so players have a limited pool of options that the Serperior user can take advantage of based on team needs and as such makes it easier to capitalize with Serperior based on the trends taking place an lack of legitimate counter play against Serperior.
Like if offense and scarf users are a burden Glare just turns all these offensive switch-ins into deadweight such as M-Pidgeot which can be taken advantage of later due to the ease of setting up a Leaf Storm and just cleaning so easily based on its linear but effective coverage options such as HP Fire. Then you take into account on a grander scale it has tools such as Taunt to break stall even more easily or just pressure utility users, Substitute which is easy as hell to put up because it pressures a lot of stuff out to the players emergency button which just adds on to its capabilities as a threat. There is so little in the tier that wants to be realistically taking on Serperior as not only from a 1v1 standpoint but as a team player it just excels at its job perfectly under the hands of a capable player.
I guess the overcentralization can be seen with a lot of Ice Beam users in particular water types with Serperior being a factor but I think this has more to do with Salamence than Serperior so this point isn't exactly too strong if we're talking about a ban perspective I guess. Overall I think its offensive abilities along with the utility it wields to break down a variety of teams is just way too much for UU to handled and is a bit ridiculous.
Although restricting teambuilding can be reasoning behind a ban, Suicune effects teambuilding a lot less than something like Serperior. Suicune has many checks/counters which come in all different forms and still function effectively in the metagame vs a lot of other viable UU threats. Eg. I could have Heracross, Shaymin, Vaporeon, Toxicroak, CurseGastrodon and more as my answer(s) to Suicune, and it is much easier to fit one on every team. Serperior on the other hand only has a handful of checks that can easily be played around based on Serp's set, to a much greater level than what Suicune is capable of. 2 of its best checks are arguably Crobat and Goodra, and I say checks because even Serp can play around them. Glare and HP Ice allows Serp to firstly cripple bat when it switches in against it and then next time it comes back in Leaf Storm and HP Ice are basically a guaranteed OHKO with any prior damage. In the case of Goodra, it can be worn down quite easily if it constantly has to switch in to D-Pulses, as or gooey dragon friend has no access to reliable recovery and requires a fair bit more team support. Ultimately I find that the only 2 real counters are SpDef Roserade and Amoongus, both of which aren't that great in the current meta. Serp is just so versatile, with the only guaranteed move on every set being Leaf Storm, and it just has the ability to destroy so many teams with little support, which is necessary, but so damn easy to pull off.
On another topic, I'm finding Bronzong really good again since it seems to have lost popularity with Zygarde getting rebanned. It's a great answer to some rather common threats now walling Nidoqueen who is becoming a very popular SR setter on offensive teams, most DD Mence sets (does have to watch out for Fire Blast), Crobat, M-Aero, Shaymin and notably one of the better answers to the new threat Rock Head Tyrantrum and more. Definitely considering to be a really strong Poke atm.
My initial post in this was obviously a joke, but tbh, for balance it's kinda true, without Crobat it's really easy to quickly get overwhelmed by this thing if it manages to come in on your bulky ground or water(usually a prerequisite for these teams), I mean you could say don't use these pokemon but that's just not healthy for the tier, if a single pokemon is discouraging the use of a whole class of pokemon then it's far too restricting and needs to go. Just for testers, not claiming to even be a good builder or player here, I tried to ladder with a balance team without Crobat and i just got totally wrecked by a sub Serperior, came in on my Hippo, got a sub, proceeded to sweep. It's incredible how strong this becomes at +2, especially if it has hazards pressure. An important thing to note is that most of the good checks to Serp are also weak to rocks, meaning abusing it with something like a Custap Forre will almost always put in work vs any playstyle. Just some initial thoughts, will post a more detailed post when I've got my reqs but currently leaning towards ban.
I do have to say that, since the Zygarde discussion, I've seen too many players saying things like "ppl now have to run ice coverage to deal with those threats". as a UU player, I think the commUUnity have some problems giving a single slot from their bulky water mons to deal with a threat. i mean, Serperior doesnt have a safe switch in a IB Cune or IB Vap for example.
from there, Serp now will have about half HP to try to do his thing. "oh but it can run Synthesis" someone could say. well, so then it won't be able to deal with counters like any flying type in the tier, since Synthesis is normally only found on stallbreakers set, which doesn't run Glare.
for instance, ice types nowadays have gotten so much better without Jirachi and with Mence around, making threats like Obamasnow, Glalie, Kyurem, Froslass, etc. not only good ways to keep pressure against Serperior, but overall great mons to have in our teams.
idk, I thing the biggest issue is with Glare, which makes possibly to deal with his pseudo counters aka Crobat . I'll play more games to check Serperior brokeness but for now, I do think he is way more healthier for the meta then let's say Salamence is.
4 SpA Suicune Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 124-148 (42.6 - 50.8%)
0 SpA Vaporeon Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 146-174 (50.1 - 59.7%)
0 SpA Vaporeon Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 146-174 (50.1 - 59.7%)
from there, Serp now will have about half HP to try to do his thing. "oh but it can run Synthesis" someone could say. well, so then it won't be able to deal with counters like any flying type in the tier, since Synthesis is normally only found on stallbreakers set, which doesn't run Glare.
for instance, ice types nowadays have gotten so much better without Jirachi and with Mence around, making threats like Obamasnow, Glalie, Kyurem, Froslass, etc. not only good ways to keep pressure against Serperior, but overall great mons to have in our teams.
idk, I thing the biggest issue is with Glare, which makes possibly to deal with his pseudo counters aka Crobat . I'll play more games to check Serperior brokeness but for now, I do think he is way more healthier for the meta then let's say Salamence is.
And this is exactly why I like Koko's way of suspecting Pokemon. This is a not a good attitude to take when looking at a broken Pokemon. Who gives a shit if some niche-ass thing comes out to check Serperior? Usually when you have something designed to beat a Pokemon and ONLY beat that Pokemon, it's dead weight when A) Your opponent isn't carrying the target in question or B) They'll have something to beat your niche counter/check (because your Pokemon sucks against anything else) and the suspect in question fucks you anyway.
The amount of people begging for Victini to get a public test also reeks of people not knowing what the fuck they're talking about. Seriously, we have exactly one new switch-in to Victini in Salamence, what makes you think it's no longer broken?
Problem with that logic is that Serperior's support movepool allow it to feasibly run any combination of Synthesis, Glare, Leech Seed, Substitute, Taunt, Giga Drain, or even Knock Off. There's nothing limiting about using both Knock Off and Synthesis for example. Also, just to throw in my two cents about the ban/unban status of Serperior, I wholeheartedly believe that it is broken. While it has a few good stops to it such as Crobat and even Goodra, it is not hard to build a team that handles these or for Serperior to muscle past them itself through the use of its vast support movepool. Do I think that it doesn't deserve a retest? No. But I certainly don't expect Serperior to be staying after this two week period.
Serperior is broken in my personal opinion, and I am very surprised that it is actually being put to a suspect test, despite how much I appreciate the fact that there is a suspect test.
It has an untauntable nasty plot of 130 base power that means it is probably the most dangerous setup sweeper in the tier, with the potential exception of suicune. It also has a phenomenal speed tier that allows it to outspeed all but a very few mons in the UU tier, and it can run glare to cripple the very few things that are faster than it if they come in on it like crobat. It has a great movepool, good typing due to the number of bulky waters in the tier, and no real weaknesses that should hold it back other than its low attacking stats, which dont really matter when it can get to +6 within 3 turns, using a 130 bp move. It is a very large strain on teambuilding, and even when teams are prepared for it, they are still hurt by non-standard sets, which are completely viable.
I'm pretty sure I'll be voting ban when the time comes.
It has an untauntable nasty plot of 130 base power that means it is probably the most dangerous setup sweeper in the tier, with the potential exception of suicune. It also has a phenomenal speed tier that allows it to outspeed all but a very few mons in the UU tier, and it can run glare to cripple the very few things that are faster than it if they come in on it like crobat. It has a great movepool, good typing due to the number of bulky waters in the tier, and no real weaknesses that should hold it back other than its low attacking stats, which dont really matter when it can get to +6 within 3 turns, using a 130 bp move. It is a very large strain on teambuilding, and even when teams are prepared for it, they are still hurt by non-standard sets, which are completely viable.
I'm pretty sure I'll be voting ban when the time comes.
Heh, constrictive. I see what you did there.
Well, technically we also have the improved Tyrantrum to doubly resist V-Create, for what it's worth. It can actually switch into CB Tini, too, if need be—which Offensive DD Intimidate Mence can't reliably do. Not saying that would make Victini not broken, just thought it was worth mentioning.
Victini isn't coming back.
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 285-336 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
ANYWAYS, I think Serperior is being suspected first to see if the ComUUnity can be trusted to recognize obvious problems. A lot of people have already talked about Serperior's Leaf Storm and non-attacking moves, but its speed and bulk haven't been brought up; nor the choice of items in set versatility in UU. It can't sit there and take ice beams all day, but it can switch in and take a hit from most of the tier then proceed to outspeed almost every non-mega without a scarf at 357 speed and hit them with its 130 base STAB nasty plot. If you've ever had your bulky banded or flame orb heracross ohko'd by a +2 HP Fire from a pl8 serp that doesn't even need LO, you know another pain. But this doesn't necessarily mean they don't still carry taunt, glare or sub, because all the sets are interchangeable. As far as teambuilding, you can slap this on any HO or balance team and crush stall, most bulky offense, and para those drumming HO slurpuffs with no worries. It's not okay here.
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 285-336 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
ANYWAYS, I think Serperior is being suspected first to see if the ComUUnity can be trusted to recognize obvious problems. A lot of people have already talked about Serperior's Leaf Storm and non-attacking moves, but its speed and bulk haven't been brought up; nor the choice of items in set versatility in UU. It can't sit there and take ice beams all day, but it can switch in and take a hit from most of the tier then proceed to outspeed almost every non-mega without a scarf at 357 speed and hit them with its 130 base STAB nasty plot. If you've ever had your bulky banded or flame orb heracross ohko'd by a +2 HP Fire from a pl8 serp that doesn't even need LO, you know another pain. But this doesn't necessarily mean they don't still carry taunt, glare or sub, because all the sets are interchangeable. As far as teambuilding, you can slap this on any HO or balance team and crush stall, most bulky offense, and para those drumming HO slurpuffs with no worries. It's not okay here.
That calc literally has ZERO relevance here. An offensive Landorus-T will never be something that Victini would hit in UU. If you're gonna make a blanket statement like that at least post calcs that are relevant to UU.
I said it in the old thread, might as well add it here: Got a Grass Snake issue? Flying Dragons dragging you down? Clogged sink? The answer is simple:
Get one today!
Won't really state opinion on Serp yet though, as I've not used him nor seen him much back before the ban. Maybe I'll manage to make a team for the suspect...
Get one today!
Won't really state opinion on Serp yet though, as I've not used him nor seen him much back before the ban. Maybe I'll manage to make a team for the suspect...
Also Victini doesn't run adamant in UU
At that
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 153-180 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I'm away until Wednesday but I'll be sure to test serp some more when I get back. From what I've seen of it, however, its really restrictive towards teambuilding and is way too easy to set up. Bulky Water-types are really common in UU, giving it plenty of opportunities to come in and set up. Also, before you say "thay ken jus run ice beem end kil it lolololol" it a) kills first with leaf storm and b) giga drain is a great option on serp as a reliable stab move so you don't run out of leaf storm too quickly and because it lets you recover HP
Yeah its revenged by stuff like Crobat and Mega Aerodactyl but being able to be revenged has and will NOT ever be a good reason for a ban
At that
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 153-180 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I'm away until Wednesday but I'll be sure to test serp some more when I get back. From what I've seen of it, however, its really restrictive towards teambuilding and is way too easy to set up. Bulky Water-types are really common in UU, giving it plenty of opportunities to come in and set up. Also, before you say "thay ken jus run ice beem end kil it lolololol" it a) kills first with leaf storm and b) giga drain is a great option on serp as a reliable stab move so you don't run out of leaf storm too quickly and because it lets you recover HP
Yeah its revenged by stuff like Crobat and Mega Aerodactyl but being able to be revenged has and will NOT ever be a good reason for a ban
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Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Glare
- Giga Drain
If you have any question about how good Serperior actually is, use this set. It loses to Forretress....and that's about all. Anyone who thinks Crobat is a good answer to Serperior has never used or faced this set. Giga Drain is there because Leaf Storm has really bad PP. I'm a major believer that Serperior is far too powerful for UU, and this set is the reason why.
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Glare
- Giga Drain
If you have any question about how good Serperior actually is, use this set. It loses to Forretress....and that's about all. Anyone who thinks Crobat is a good answer to Serperior has never used or faced this set. Giga Drain is there because Leaf Storm has really bad PP. I'm a major believer that Serperior is far too powerful for UU, and this set is the reason why.
Welp Hello! I'm kanna, first post here, and I'm prolly don't get the score needed to vote, but in case you are, here are my thoughts on the emperor snake:
1) brokeness: A) A pokemon IMO is deemed broken if it can singlehandedly (even with some sets requiring different moves, that's the point, you'll never know) destroy more then 1 playstyle (i.e:Passive-Stall, Hyper defensive, balanced, bulky offense, Hyper Offensive). B) Also is about movepool and set up moves, if it can set up while dealing huge amounts of damage and taking little in return. C) If the pokemon that are in the team offer the threat good synergy/another chance to set up easily/an easy way to lure some counter and kill them. (btw all of those rules are what I THINK is broken)
2)IMO serperior is broken because given the set (You might say if it carries X, it can't carry Y, but I'm going to say, there's a suspension of disbelieve and that you never know the set untill you battle it) with a convination of glare, synth, taunt, HP rock/ground/fire, leaf storm and Dragon pulse (also remember it can go substitute and leech seed) it can destroy entire teams/playstiles and if it does count with good team support (hello every rypherior/bulky rock/ground types , who also lure the water types that serperior love to set up on, also those bulky rock/ground, always can set up rocks against a switch, which makes serperiors job much easy as those hazards break sashes and things) also taunt, synth destroys blissey (the best spdefensive wall in UU, don't kid yourselves) and a lot other defensive pokes. The speed tier that serperior finds itself, is also quite important too, cuz there are next to nothing that can outspeed and kill (bar crobat, but one poke that can counter it is a niche, deal with it), with glare it can cripple HO teams, and the balanced teams loves their bulky water/ground which serp destroys, and once the balanced team loses the defensive core and serp can cripple the offensive core with glare welp is not that kind of hard to say GG. Last but not least: Serperior can work as a wall breaker, it can work as a late game cleaner, as an early game sweeper, can work as an annoyer and as straight out sweeper, so versatility is also serperiors weapon.
3)
4) and last: In monotype (IK IK another meta, but sometimes it help) serperior is taking the rol that the old skymin used to take, and dare I say serperior is just as threatening (even with no flinches) but against unprepared teams it can #rekt you, so if it were up to me I'd say ban that thing, but if you're into complex bans, ban the combination of any move that lowers sharply a stat with contrary, or just straight out ban contrary on serperior (but who are we kidding if we take contrary away serp is back to the depts of FU) so yeah I say let it go to BL, cuz there's no way in hell that serp is gonna do anything #relevant in OU...
Thxs for taking the time to read this wall of text :D
1) brokeness: A) A pokemon IMO is deemed broken if it can singlehandedly (even with some sets requiring different moves, that's the point, you'll never know) destroy more then 1 playstyle (i.e:Passive-Stall, Hyper defensive, balanced, bulky offense, Hyper Offensive). B) Also is about movepool and set up moves, if it can set up while dealing huge amounts of damage and taking little in return. C) If the pokemon that are in the team offer the threat good synergy/another chance to set up easily/an easy way to lure some counter and kill them. (btw all of those rules are what I THINK is broken)
2)IMO serperior is broken because given the set (You might say if it carries X, it can't carry Y, but I'm going to say, there's a suspension of disbelieve and that you never know the set untill you battle it) with a convination of glare, synth, taunt, HP rock/ground/fire, leaf storm and Dragon pulse (also remember it can go substitute and leech seed) it can destroy entire teams/playstiles and if it does count with good team support (hello every rypherior/bulky rock/ground types , who also lure the water types that serperior love to set up on, also those bulky rock/ground, always can set up rocks against a switch, which makes serperiors job much easy as those hazards break sashes and things) also taunt, synth destroys blissey (the best spdefensive wall in UU, don't kid yourselves) and a lot other defensive pokes. The speed tier that serperior finds itself, is also quite important too, cuz there are next to nothing that can outspeed and kill (bar crobat, but one poke that can counter it is a niche, deal with it), with glare it can cripple HO teams, and the balanced teams loves their bulky water/ground which serp destroys, and once the balanced team loses the defensive core and serp can cripple the offensive core with glare welp is not that kind of hard to say GG. Last but not least: Serperior can work as a wall breaker, it can work as a late game cleaner, as an early game sweeper, can work as an annoyer and as straight out sweeper, so versatility is also serperiors weapon.
3)
LOL... just LOL, victini destroys almost everything, so stop asking for a broken and even more versatile thing to come back, (ppl usually seem to forget that AVtini/choice specs blue flare/choice scard/special attacking victini is a thing, also glaciate works, and lucky star thunder rekts water types and energy ball says hi to swamp/gastro/quag soo yeah
4) and last: In monotype (IK IK another meta, but sometimes it help) serperior is taking the rol that the old skymin used to take, and dare I say serperior is just as threatening (even with no flinches) but against unprepared teams it can #rekt you, so if it were up to me I'd say ban that thing, but if you're into complex bans, ban the combination of any move that lowers sharply a stat with contrary, or just straight out ban contrary on serperior (but who are we kidding if we take contrary away serp is back to the depts of FU) so yeah I say let it go to BL, cuz there's no way in hell that serp is gonna do anything #relevant in OU...
Thxs for taking the time to read this wall of text :D
I've been meaning to try HP Ice on Crobat as it'll still destroy Mence while only missing out on beating Steels who are few and far between in UU to begin with. Mega Aggron is likely the "best" answer out of the steel types but it's not hard to whittle down so long as your team has a solid defensive backbone.
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