• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

np: UU Stage 6 - No Surprises

Status
Not open for further replies.
Heysup said:
Well the real issue I see with Roserade is that nothing's really changed to make it that much better or worse in the sense of utility or power. It's one of those situations where we seem to forget that just because we ended up banning the "best" Pokemon or one of its "best" competition etc, does not mean that the #2 Pokemon should automatically get focused on and made suspect. I'm aware of the valid arguments, but are you sure that they don't just make Roserade really good?
Click to expand...

The way I think about it is, there are stronger Pokemon than Roserade around - Darm and Chandy, for one, get excellent coverage with more power. The thing that makes Roserade so different is...Sleep Powder. Sleep Powder essentially means that Roserade does not have to predict to cripple something. Given the sleep mechanics this generation, Sleep Powder is much more dangerous, and therefore anything with it automatically becomes much more dangerous.
 
FlareBlitz said:
The way I think about it is, there are stronger Pokemon than Roserade around - Darm and Chandy, for one, get excellent coverage with more power. The thing that makes Roserade so different is...Sleep Powder. Sleep Powder essentially means that Roserade does not have to predict to cripple something. Given the sleep mechanics this generation, Sleep Powder is much more dangerous, and therefore anything with it automatically becomes much more dangerous.
Click to expand...

Actually one of the best things about roserade is the ratio between its ability to switch into many threats and what can switch into it. We all know the typical FWG dance. Fire type in, water switches in, then roserade switches in to counter the water. The best part about this dance is that very few bulky waters can effectively harm roserade. And roserade is in a good position in this dance cause now your "counter" can be crippled with sleep powder. Or. just hit really hard. Fire types cant continue the dance though makin roserade the end chain. Not many to switch into roserade but roserade has too many opportunities.
 
Is Sleep Powder a new fad since the last metagames? No. It's not like we didn't have to prepare for all types of Sleep moves before all of the sudden roulette of the "next Pokemon we talk about" landed on Roserade. We know we'll either need a dedicated Sleep absorber, not give it a chance to Sleep something, or simply sacrifice fodder to it.

Yes I know Roserade doesn't only carry Sleep Powder, but we've also been dealing with Roserade for a long time and while it isn't easy (it's hard to deal with lots of offensive / utility threats), nothing has changed to make it necessary to all of the sudden freak out about Roserade just because it's 'next' on our arbitrary list of what we think we should ban, because we have to ban something.
 
1. Roserade has always been on the radar.
2. Not giving it a chance to sleep something is much easier said than done and you know this.
3. The metagame has has changed. Maybe you haven't noticed it, but the amount of defensive Pokemon which Roserade can switch in on has dramatically increased since Deoxys-D's ban.

Finally, and I can't stress this enough: suspecting something =/= banning something. Why is it that people don't get that?
 
Ok, these are some fair points, snorlax isn't a fool-proof to beat roserade, but it is very risky to keep offensive rosie in on snorlax as has been mentioned. I appreciate that sleep powder is more dangerous on roserade than on a typical user, but I still think that it sleep powder isn't over-powering as it is quite limited to what it will do afterward. Just don't get your rosie counter slept, and cure the sleeping pokemon later. As Heysup said, every team should at least have some sort of way to deal with sleep.

While rosie should definetly be suspect, Idk, there seems to be a lot to discuss about her place in the meta-game
 
I think if facts were presented objectively (I think I used that word right) then we should all easily come to an agreement on the suspect status of Roserade.

Here are the facts...

Spikes+Leaf Storm is ILLEGAL on all Roserade.
Spikes+Sleep Powder is ILLEGAL on all Roserade.
Leaf Storm+Sleep Powder is LEGAL on all Roserade.

Roserade is at standard UU the most common Pokemon with 21.762% usage.
The most common set it uses is a Spikes set with 51.44% of all Roserade using Spikes. This is just over Sleep Powder usage (which is illegal with Spikes btw) which has 37.45% usage. We can gather that all but 46.5% of all Roserade are offensive since only 46.5% use a Calm nature. The rest use Modest and Timid so it is about even, half of all Roserade being offensive and the other half offensive. 84.7% of all Roserade run Sludge Bomb so both defensive sets and offensive sets alike are using it.

Roserade is at 1337 UU the 8th most common Pokemon with 18.627% usage.
The most common set seems to be Spikes again as it comes in on just over 57% of all Roserade. However only 36.1% of Roserade are using a Calm nature
so it may very well be that there are some good players using an offensive set with Spikes. Remember Spikes and Leaf Storm is illegal so there may be offensive Roserade running around with Giga Drain. 91% of all Roserade use Sludge Bomb (so I;m the only one who doesn't lol) which, implies that it is necessary on most teams to work and Roselia will not match up to Roserade.

List of Pokemon in UU that Roserade can set up on (blue) or defeat with an offensive set switching in (red) or defeat with an offensive set if there is no switch in (green). 0 means Roserade cannot do well at all, 0.5 means it can do somewhat well and 1 means it can do very well. I realize my opinion might be in some of this but just post what you think I did wrong. Most of this is really not debatable. Feel free to double check my addition. If that didn't make sense, look at the key below.


Blue=set up fodder
Red=Roserade can beat you one on one if Sleep Clause is not activated with an offensive set
Green=Roserade can counter you if Sleep Clause is not activated with an offensive set
Ambipom=0,0,0
Arcanine=0,0,0
Azelf=0,0,0
Azumarill=0.5,0.5,0.5
Bisharp=0,0,0
Blastoise=1,1,1
Bronzong=0.5,1,1
Chandelure=0,0,0
Claydol=1,1,1
Cobalion=0,0,0
Crobat=0,0,0
Darmantian=0,0,0
Dusclops=0,1,1
Empoleon=1,1,1
Escalivier=0,0,0
Flygon=0,0,0
Froslass=0,0,0
Gligar=1,1,1
Heracross=0,0,0
Hippotas=1,1,1
Hitmontop=1,1,1
Honchkrow=0,0,0
Houndoom=0,0
Kingdra=0,0,0
Krookodile=0,1,0
Machamp=0,0.5,0.5
Mew=0,0.5,0.5
Milotic=1,1,1
Mismagius=0.5,0,0
Nidoking=0.5,0.5,0.5
Nidoqueen=1,1,1
Porygon2=1,1,1
Raikou=0.5,0.5,0.5
Registeel=1,1
Rhyperior=0.5,0,0
Rotom-h=0,0,0
Sableye=0,1,1
Sharpedo=0,0,0
Shaymin=1,1,1
Slowbro=1,1,1
Stoutland=0,0,0
Snorlax=0.5,0,0
Suicune=1,1,1
Swampert=1,1
Togekiss=0,0,0
Umbreon=1,1,1
Victini=0,0,0
Weavile=0,0,0
Xatu=0,1,1
Yanmega=0,0,0
Zapdos=0,0.5,0.5
Total=18.5,23,20

If anyone would like, I can do this factoring in Sleep Clause being activated. I am not sure if this is just to hard to read though so yeah. UU has 53 total Pokemon btw.
 
jamashawalker said:
Actually one of the best things about roserade is the ratio between its ability to switch into many threats and what can switch into it. We all know the typical FWG dance. Fire type in, water switches in, then roserade switches in to counter the water. The best part about this dance is that very few bulky waters can effectively harm roserade. And roserade is in a good position in this dance cause now your "counter" can be crippled with sleep powder. Or. just hit really hard. Fire types cant continue the dance though makin roserade the end chain. Not many to switch into roserade but roserade has too many opportunities.
Click to expand...

This isn't really unique to Roserade though, Fire types are pretty much always the weak link in a FWG core because fire is such a poor defensive typing. A Shaymin with leftovers can still strip over half the health off Darmatian or Chandy with Seed Flare if rocks are up.
 
kokoloko said:
1. Roserade has always been on the radar.
2. Not giving it a chance to sleep something is much easier said than done and you know this.
3. The metagame has has changed. Maybe you haven't noticed it, but the amount of defensive Pokemon which Roserade can switch in on has dramatically increased since Deoxys-D's ban.

Finally, and I can't stress this enough: suspecting something =/= banning something. Why is it that people don't get that?
Click to expand...

I'm not saying it's "easy" dealing with Roserade I'm saying it isn't "near impossible" or whichever realistic point that would be needed for something to be broken.

We shouldn't act like Roserade has Shaymin's overall bulk and Speed either, Roserade is not that fast and can't switch into a lot because of its low defense and sub-par typing. It CAN switch on a bunch of slow weak defensive Pokemon, but so can other threatening Pokemon.

I've been using Roserade as a staple on my teams for a LONG time and it's great at what it does, but it doesn't have all of the criteria for something that's "too good"; it has strengths and weaknesses like everything else.
 
So an interesting discovery just happened recently. And that's the power of Double Dancing. On the research week, there is talk of Kabutops-Rain Dance+Sword Dance set and how that has been productive. Recently Psycho71c and I made a team focusing around Double Dancing Porgon-Z. Nasty plot+Agility. Porygon-Z has been nothing short but amazing.The choice between rather decimating stall or just breezing through offensive teams is just phenomenal. Double Dancing has been popular in OU with terrakion and Landorus but it shows much potential here in UU. If there are more pokemon that can utilizing both in UU RU, NU they should be used more.
 
jamashawalker said:
So an interesting discovery just happened recently. And that's the power of Double Dancing. On the research week, there is talk of Kabutops-Rain Dance+Sword Dance set and how that has been productive. Recently Psycho71c and I made a team focusing around Double Dancing Porgon-Z. Nasty plot+Agility. Porygon-Z has been nothing short but amazing.The choice between rather decimating stall or just breezing through offensive teams is just phenomenal. Double Dancing has been popular in OU with terrakion and Landorus but it shows much potential here in UU. If there are more pokemon that can utilizing both in UU RU, NU they should be used more.
Click to expand...

sounds like he has great sweep potential, I would give Z a try but team spots are so cramped up already. Maybe my next team can be based around a double dance set.
 
I was just personally witness to the power of double dance Kabutops and fully support looking into him more. I have not seen Z in a long time but with the current metagame I see no reason why a powerful special attacker like it would not work.
 
jamashawalker said:
So an interesting discovery just happened recently. And that's the power of Double Dancing. On the research week, there is talk of Kabutops-Rain Dance+Sword Dance set and how that has been productive. Recently Psycho71c and I made a team focusing around Double Dancing Porgon-Z. Nasty plot+Agility. Porygon-Z has been nothing short but amazing.The choice between rather decimating stall or just breezing through offensive teams is just phenomenal. Double Dancing has been popular in OU with terrakion and Landorus but it shows much potential here in UU. If there are more pokemon that can utilizing both in UU RU, NU they should be used more.
Click to expand...

May I ask what coverage have you been using on that Porygon-Z set? I guess it's BoltBeam if you're going with 2 attacking moves, right?
 
DestinyUnknown said:
May I ask what coverage have you been using on that Porygon-Z set? I guess it's BoltBeam if you're going with 2 attacking moves, right?
Click to expand...

Tri attack+ hidden power fighting. We decided it was much easier to get rid of ghost with pursuit support than it was getting rid of steels witg magneton support
 
Upstart's been inactive for personal reasons, but I caught him on IRC today and asked him his opinion on the sand situation; this was his response:

22:49 upstart uu sand is annoying i would be fine if it stayed but would prefer if sand veil was gone as it is simply annoying and uncompetitive

So with that, at least four senators are in favor of a Sand Veil suspect (FlareBlitz, SJCrew, Upstart, and myself).

I don't mean to sound pushy, but can we get a move on this? It's been idling for way too long.
 
kokoloko said:
Upstart's been inactive for personal reasons, but I caught him on IRC today and asked him his opinion on the sand situation; this was his response:

22:49 upstart uu sand is annoying i would be fine if it stayed but would prefer if sand veil was gone as it is simply annoying and uncompetitive

So with that, at least four senators are in favor of a Sand Veil suspect (FlareBlitz, SJCrew, Upstart, and myself).

I don't mean to sound pushy, but can we get a move on this? It's been idling for way too long.
Click to expand...

Oh thank god, yes, please, let's get this shit done.

We can schedule some time to discuss this on IRC whenever as far as I am concerned - my schedule is pretty flexible. I'm down for talking about sand veil as soon as possible.

Perhaps the senators can all make a post in the UU Senators thread outlining their availability, editing it as needed? I have a feeling it will be very useful in scheduling discussions.
 
As I've told people before, I don't have time for this anymore and I'm quitting Pokemon very soon, so it would be best if someone else takes my spot for this vote.
 
So while we're waiting for that to resolve itself, I'm gonna go ahead and proclaim that Sandless UU is amazing. PO's server is currently conducting a one month test-ban on Sand Stream in UU, which convinced me to go play it again. Seriously, their UU is just about the most enjoyable metagame I have ever played. Granted, there's a few other differences that probably contribute to this, but being able to use Morning Sun / Moonlight / Synthesis and freely use Life Orb on things like Azelf and Raikou without worrying about them dying in 2 turns because of the added damage is amazing.

The quality of play is subpar as always, but really it's so much fun that I don't even care.

Scrafty is UU
Mienshao is UU
Virizion is UU
Roserade is BL
Kingdra is BL
Smeargle is BL
I'm probably missing a few, but those are the important ones.
 
You know what's better than Sandless UU?

1zxWG.png


This guy. Okay, so you like Life Orb Zapdos? Well, how about you find out what happens when Zapdos cranks his power up to 11 and stops running wimpy little Life Orb? You get an ALMIGHTY THUNDER GOD that shreds the UU tier like a machine gun shredding paper. Okay, so Thunderbolt on this guy was probably outlawed by the Geneva Convention, but fuck that if those Geneva (BAN ME PLEASE) want to stop me they'll have to kill my Zapdos first. To start off, it 2KO's offensive ROSERADE with SR down. Chandelure? OHKO. Bronzong? 2KO. Heracross? OHKO with SR. Kingdra? OHKO with SR. Mew? 2KO.

Get the picture? Good. Now, there are some ass-tastic Ground types that think they can just wall Zapdos's shit all day, but that's when Zapdos's secret weapon kicks in. Hidden Power just STABs them in the face. Wait, did you say STAB Hidden Power? Yes I did, bitch. Hidden Power Flying just eviscerates Ground types that aren't Rhyperior.

Swampert? 2KO. Flygon? 80% on average. Nidoking? OHKO with SR+Spikes. Shaymin? OHKO. Krookodile? 80%. Gligar? 2KO. Claydol? 2KO. Hippopotas? 2KO.

GG UU.

Seriously, Specs Zapdos is great, especially because you can KO so much thanks to HP Flying's utility.
 
Old news. I had like four alts in the top ten all using Specs Zapdos a month ago. If you use HP Flying, make sure you use something that can hit Rhyperior for neutral like Extrasensory.

@ Kokoloko: I imagine UU would still be fun if we got rid of the BS HAX part. At least players know what to do against a Stoutland. Not so much vs Sand Veil.
 
I'm actually quite certain I would enjoy that metagame mostly because of the other reasons......Virizion, Mienshao....I would be very pumped to use those in this tier.
 
I think metagross is UU as well on PO and it nearly made me wet myself when I saw one (ok, maybe not actually, but you get the idea) though it's been a while since I did PO UU so he may have been banned since then.

Kingdra is tough to prepare for, I'm not going to lie and CB flygon is pretty dang hard to stop, especially seeing as it's virtually immune to hazards so can come in pretty much whenever it likes throughout the game and seeing as its checks like bronzong are very difficult to keep healthy for a long time, especially with many being u-turn happy, it will pretty much rip your defences to shreds. Idk, I just feel that having an obligatory steel type on every team was something left in ubers and ou (and even in ubers I managed to get away with a fast w-o-wing ghost arceus as my dragon check pretty well).

Personally, I think our current UU has formed a vicous circle heavily limiting our playstyles in UU. Ever since darm and chandy dropped down and victini got v-destroy, fire has been the offensive type to watch out for, meaning that bulky waters are on literally every team and roserade can easily tackle a lot of them and get grattis spikes which is very useful encouraging more use of fire types to smash rosie which then makes water types even more popular and so on. This may not be very accurate, but it's just how I feel UU is tilting.

Smeargle isn't BL material IMO so long as we crack down on this smashpass crap.

I'm intrigued on how stall fares in PO UU. Does it work kokoloko?
 
Smeargle's ban was solely due SmashPass and the tiering leaders wanting to avoid combination bans at all costs. That reminds me I need to use that here.

As for stall, POs UU has always been more stall oriented than Smogon's for some reason. It should still work.
 
(Sort of replying to post above koko's)
I don't really think the dragons are that much of a problem, though they're certainly some of the most threatening things around. Kingdra is the more dangerous out of the two with its option of going physical and special, but its sets all have shared counnters in Empoleon and Slowking and the DD sets don't have the strongest attacks around even when boosted, so it has to resort to outrage against a lot of stuff, making it easier to revenge kill (though I guess that isn't so easy either because Kingdra is pretty bulky). It's also outsped by most scarfers unless running jolly, which is not really something you want with 95 base attack. The rain dance (and specs) set are more threatening from my experience, since few things can take a rain boosted hydro pump, while even fewer can take a Draco Meteor on top. It has a similar problem to the DD sets though, which is that after firing off a Draco Meteor it probably can't do much else. Still, Kingdra is pretty damn dangerous and while I wouldn't say I think it's broken, I can see why someone would.
Flygon on the other hand is either running scarf and pretty weak, or it's CB and can't perfrom important tasks such as revenge killing Raikou (who revenges Flygon instead), DD Kingdra and Cobalion, as well as being unable to outspeed other scarfers. Boosted outrage is very nice I guess, and CB Flygon is a great set, but it doesn't come close to being broken imo. Running steel types to take outrages is annoying I suppose, but you have to prepare for everything, and it's not like the steel types in UU are bad or anything.

And well, FWG being dominant really isn't anything new, though I agree that roserade being able to get easy spikes on almost all bulky waters is annoying as fuck, not to mention that it can also go offensive and destroy your shit with leaf storm and sleep powder. It's not on Deoxys-D level when it comes to spikes, but it mostly makes up for it with its good special attack stat, meaning it can actually hurt stuff even with defensive sets, it's ability to use a really strong offensive set and its access to sleep powder.

Can't comment on the sandless metagame because I'm not playing it, but I guess the points koko brought up are pretty nice.
 
Just a couple questions about a sandless metagame. Sandless metagame allows some stuff to be used that were hampered badly by sand but doesn't it also mean many things that relied on sand are now not usable? Isn't taking sand away killing multiple playstyles (sand stall, sand offense)?
 
So you're asking me if we can use Sand in a Sandless meta? No, no you cannot.

However, the only thing that was typically found in Sand that is no longer usable in a sandless metagame is Stoutland, for obvious reasons. Everything that was actually used (so not Cradily) is still usable or would be unusable if we chose to ban solely Sand Veil anyway (Cacturne). The hippos are still usable with Sand Force (no Stealth Rock though :( ), and as for Gligar and Empoleon, they're just as good as they are without Sand.

Also, there's no such thing as Sand offense really, it's just Stoutland.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top