np: UU Suspect Test Round 1 - Sunny Days

[Shroomisaur]

Personally, I think it is the other way around. The main question is, does sun break Victini, or does Victini break sun, or neither. If you have seen any of my post about Rain in the OU thread, you would know that I prefer to ban individual Pokemon over play styles. Additionally, I have never had any real problems with Sun other than Victini, so I really don't think it is broken in the first place. I that if we get rid of anything, Victini should go first.

As for other things, Kyurem is not necessarily overpowering, but the fact that it can be incredible at many things makes me think it may need to go. Chansey is another one that I believe at least needs to be voted on. Its like having an even better version of Blissey in UU, since damaging weather is less common, making the loss of leftovers less important. When something with base 5 defense can survive a super effective CB Heracross's Close Combat, I think we have a problem.

I completely agree with your entire post. I believe Drought should be given a chance in UU. However, Victini is more likely the cause of the problem, and I think Victini should go and Drought should be given a chance without him.

Why? My reasoning is this: Victini is in UU due to it's low usage in UU during April. However, V-Create was released over half-way through April, and it took a few days for people to realize this and find out how powerful it is. Thus, Victini's usage really only grew during the last ~10 days of the month, and was likely much higher than earlier. I'm willing to bet that because of this, Victini's usage will put him firmly in OU when the May stats roll around. Victini can go then, of course, and Drought should remain to be tested without 405-base power V-Creates being thrown around. ~_~;

I also agree that Kyurem and Chansey should not immediately be nominated suspects, but both are very powerful. Give them 'till the end of the month like Victini, and then proceed from there.

 

[Engineer Pikachu]

Jolly CB Heracross Close Combat v max/max Eviolite Chansey: 758 - 894 (107.67% - 126.99%)

Disproven.

I actually don't think that Chansey is too good as of now. It's true that Chansey is very good, but it's not to the point of fulfilling the defensive criteria. Blissey walled half the OU metagame in 4th Gen, and nobody said it was broken. Chansey walls half of the UU metagame now and can do even less offensively.

 

[jas61292]

...and sun boosted 120 BP move is just as powerful...

Ummm.... no, no they are not. Well, actually Specs SP Charizard can be even more powerful, but SR weakness cripples it, and it works completely differently. Outside of him however, no one comes close.

Did some calcs just to prove it. I know different Pokemon have different uses, but just to prove the sheer power I did these calcs vs a no EV neutral nature Mew. Also, I just made everyone be at their most powerful regardless of what set they would actually run. (All calcs assume Sun is out)

Adamant Band Victini V-create: 176.8% - 208.5%
Modest Specs Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast: 187.7% - 221.1%
Adamant Band Aracnine Flare Blitz: 126.1% - 148.7%
Modest Specs Houndoom Fire Blast: 126.1% - 148.7%

So, of commonly used Fire Types, Charizard has the most power, but you really can't compare him to Victini. Still, CB Victini is 1.4 times more powerful than the next strongest physical attacker. And when you compare other qualities outside of pure power, its not even fair.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

I found that one can use Defensive Nasty Plot Togekiss in UU with constant success. Not only does Togekiss completely set up in front of Slowbro, Chansey, and numerous other defensive Pokemon with Roost and Heal Bell, but it totally vexes so many teams with Air Slash, since the majority of threats I've seen are mostly slower than Togekiss. In other words, if you're having trouble with stall Pokemon such as Chansey, Togekiss might be the right guy here. Simply eliminate or cripple opposing Electric-, Rock-, and Steel- types with the appropriate teammate.

On offensive teams, this Togekiss fits perfectly due to healing off its teammates statuses and being totally bulky and hard-hitting in general. Togekiss seriously take so many hard hits, including those in sunlight. I totally recommend Togekiss if you'd like to take advantage of status users.

Also, Nasty Plot Azelf does wonders.

 

[Scoopapa]

Have you actually tried that out, cause I thought Pickpocket only activated when your opponent makes contact with you, not the other way around. Though, it is an interesting idea.

Lol, it turns out I misinterpreted how the ability works... it doesn't work when you attack. It was a troll idea anyway >_>

 

[Honko]

I agree with jas as well. Victini clearly doesn't belong in UU, but Drought should be given a chance once Victini is gone. Of the Sun teams I've faced so far, none of them seemed like they'd be unmanageable if you took Victini out.

 

[Nubbins]

I don't play UU but when reading this thread I was thinking maybe ban evolite? Obviously without evolite Chansey would be a manageable threat. Or maybe institute a complex ban on evolite, since it's probably unique enough to warrant such a thing.

Just the opinion of an OU player though.

 

[iDunno]

That opinion holds just as much water as saying, "I don't play OU, but I think Haxorus should probably be uber because it has a 147 base attack stat, which is higher than almost every other OU Pokemon. Or maybe we could do a complex ban on it and only let it be used at level 70 since its probably overpowered enough to warrant such a thing."

 

[PK Gaming]

Victini isn't even the strongest threat on sun teams imo. The fact the chlorophyll sweepers get a massive speed boost pushes sun over the edge for me. The top tier sun sweepers (Sawsbuck, Liligant, Victreebel etc) will still dominate. Sure checking 1 or 2 is possible, but checking 3 or 4 is a bit too much, especially if your team can't change the weather.

I don't think Victini's removal will do much, if it anything at all.

Edit: Oh and Chansey is definitely a problem, not only can it wall special sweeper it can even stop some physical sweepers too in their tracks with thunder wave or toxic. I guess for Sub Missy and friends, but you gotta be careful switching into Chansey because status fucks your sweeper over. I might be in minority on this one, but I think she definitely deserves to be nominated.

Edit 2: Did I mention how awesome 252hp/252speed jolly Deoxys-D is? Bloo showed it to me the other day and I find that I can't make a team without him. It sets up hazards like a boss, shuts down slower walls and tanks hits like a boss. The set i'm using is SR / Spikes / Taunt / Recover
He's like Uxie on steroids.

 

[jas61292]

Well, as I said, outside of specs Solar Power Zard, Victini is flat out the strongest Pokemon in UU. Speed does help the grass types, but they can't benefit from the power boost like Victini can. Additionally, Pokemon like Weavile and Mamoswine can take down most Chlorophyll sweepers (other than Tangrowth) with Ice Shard. Boosted Fire moves don't help them either. I just think that in general other sun pokemon are easier to deal with than Victini, the Pokemon that can OHKO everything.

 

[PK Gaming]

Well, as I said, outside of specs Solar Power Zard, Victini is flat out the strongest Pokemon in UU. Speed does help the grass types, but they can't benefit from the power boost like Victini can. Additionally, Pokemon like Weavile and Mamoswine can take down most Chlorophyll sweepers (other than Tangrowth) with Ice Shard. Boosted Fire moves don't help them either. I just think that in general other sun pokemon are easier to deal with than Victini, the Pokemon that can OHKO everything.

I dunno, Victini is pursuit bait, semi weak to flash fire users and SR weak. Don't get me wrong, Victini is great and it pretty much guarantee's an OHKO per match but you're severely underestimating the Chlorophyll sweepers. Weavile & Mamoswine are shaky checks at best because Ice shard doesn't even come close to OHKOing a healthy chlorophyll sweeper. So whats your solution? Run Weavile (and or) Mamoswine on everytime so you don't get "semi" fucked by sun sweepers? Also don't forget that Victini can come in on CB Ice Shard and get a free kill. Boosted fire moves are hardly relevant, because none of the fire types are even come close to touching the chlorophyll sweepers. Either they're:

A) Smashed Earthquake (or nature power)
B) Hit hard by STAB Psychic, Sludge bomb etc (Which typically OHKOes after SR)
C) Put to sleep by sleep powder

I don't think the extra fire weak is a big deal at all.

 

[jas61292]

I dunno, Victini is pursuit bait, semi weak to flash fire users and SR weak.

Flash Fire is annoying, but Victini can kill them easily with decent prediction (not that hard. FF users are pretty obvious). SR is also a problem, but lost of Pokemon have a weakness to it, when you have 100/100/100 bulk, its really not as bad as you think. Speaking of bulk, pursuit doesn't work nearly as well as you might think, especially if the user predicts it. Few pokemon can OHKO -1 Victini with Pursuit if it decides to stay it. CB is pretty much required if you want to get the KO (SR makes it easier, but you still need someone pretty strong). That way, if it stays in, often the pursuer is killed.

Don't get me wrong, Victini is great and it pretty much guarantee's an OHKO per match but you're severely underestimating the Chlorophyll sweepers. Weavile & Mamoswine are shaky checks at best because Ice shard doesn't even come close to OHKOing a healthy chlorophyll sweeper. So whats your solution? Run Weavile (and or) Mamoswine on everytime so you don't get "semi" fucked by sun sweepers? Boosted fire moves are hardly relevant, none of the fire types are even come close to touching the chlorophyll sweepers. Either they're:

A) Smashed Earthquake (nature power)
B) Hit hard by STAB Psychic, Sludge bomb etc (Which typically OHKOes after SR)
C) Put to sleep by sleep powder

I don't think the extra fire weak is a big deal at all.

OK, I know, fire types themselves aren't good counters, but other Pokemon can use fire moves too. And most Sun Sweepers need to set up for a turn to get KOs on many of the things that can KO back. If you let them set up, yeah, it will suck for you. But between hitting them before they can set up, and priority, I have never had a problem with them.

Oh, and specifically to this:

So whats your solution? Run Weavile (and or) Mamoswine on everytime so you don't get "semi" fucked by sun sweepers

Well, sorta. I run Weavile on a large number of my teams. I mentioned it somewhere else, but it always seems like I get Wobbuffet in,encoring a Sawsbucks SD, giving Weavile a chance to SD and full sweep.

 

[Leman]

Flash Fire is annoying, but Victini can kill them easily with decent prediction (not that hard. FF users are pretty obvious).

That's not really true. Choiced Victini will strait up lose to Pursuit Houndoom, which can be run, to eat Victini like that. It has to watch out for Sucker Punch, if its not Choiced also. Victini really doesn't have much of any way to get past Arcanine who will just demolish you with triple stabbed Flare Blitz. In fact I'd probably say that SDef Flash Fire Arcanine with Morning Sun is the best counter for Victini in the tier, since it can absorb Fusion Bolts and random Hidden Powers as well.

 

[jas61292]

That's not really true. Choiced Victini will strait up lose to Pursuit Houndoom, which can be run, to eat Victini like that. It has to watch out for Sucker Punch, if its not Choiced also. Victini really doesn't have much of any way to get past Arcanine who will just demolish you with triple stabbed Flare Blitz. In fact I'd probably say that SDef Flash Fire Arcanine with Morning Sun is the best counter for Victini in the tier, since it can absorb Fusion Bolts and random Hidden Powers as well.

Well, if you have decent prediction that shouldn't be a problem. If they have a flash fire Pokemon, they are probably switching it in to Victini. And if you are not sure, U-turn the first time. Unless that Flash Fire Pokemon is Max Defense Arcanine (cause that set is sooooo common) if stealth rocks are in play they are all KOd by Fusion Bolt before they get a chance to attack.

 

[TEA_DEMON]

That's not really true. Choiced Victini will strait up lose to Pursuit Houndoom, which can be run, to eat Victini like that. It has to watch out for Sucker Punch, if its not Choiced also. Victini really doesn't have much of any way to get past Arcanine who will just demolish you with triple stabbed Flare Blitz. In fact I'd probably say that SDef Flash Fire Arcanine with Morning Sun is the best counter for Victini in the tier, since it can absorb Fusion Bolts and random Hidden Powers as well.

and this is exactly why victini should be using u-turn instead of v-create, especially with team preview. if you know your opponent has houndoom, why the fuck would you even bother with v-create when you can just u-turn and leave it on ~10% with cb u-turn + rocks?

 

[shrang]

Man Deoxys-D is absolutely hilarious. You know something is wrong when you can use a combination of Recover, Taunt and Night Shade and sweep like half a team.

 

[Thorhammer]

Man Deoxys-D is absolutely hilarious. You know something is wrong when you can use a combination of Recover, Taunt and Night Shade and sweep like half a team.

This is why I disagree with people using pure walling ability as a criteria to ban a Pokemon.

The Defensive Characteristic of an Uber is imaginary. A defensive Pokemon becomes broken when it becomes an unstoppable sweeper, just like an offensive Pokemon. Now, I can't say for sure whether or not this makes Deoxys-D broken, not having fought any yet in UU, but the lack of this is why Pokemon such as chansey are not broken.

 

[SupremeDirt]

I'm really not seeing what the issues people have with some of these things.

I'm doing fine with a core of CM Entei, Bulk Up Mew, and Wish Chansey.

I keep getting haxed though. 8 paralysis turns in a row.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I keep getting haxed though. 8 paralysis turns in a row.

At least you don't miss Draco Meteor twice every match and has your Focus Blasts with like 50% accuracy...

And good idea, CM Entei might help me with the Sun te--wait shit Flash Fire Entei wasn't released yet, was it?

 

[SupremeDirt]

It's not Flash Fire.

I'm using a simple set of Calm Mind / HP Ground / Lava Plume / Substitute. I used to run Reflect over HP Ground, but I keep seeing Houndoom everywhere and Mew can't switch in on it.

HP Ground is because Entei brings all the Flash Fire users to the yard.

With Reflect support Entei flat out beats a number of threats, including Arcanine and Aerodactyl. Taking like 12% from Arcanine's ESpeed is pretty boss.

It can 2HKO Victini after a few CM boosts, and with a sub up it can take 2 V-Creates. You NEED a spinner running a team like mine, though. Toxic Spikes can completely fuck me over.

I honestly never thought I'd be running CM Entei, I was using SmashPass Entei in OU.

 

[Gerard]

Well, as I said, outside of specs Solar Power Zard, Victini is flat out the strongest Pokemon in UU. Speed does help the grass types, but they can't benefit from the power boost like Victini can. Additionally, Pokemon like Weavile and Mamoswine can take down most Chlorophyll sweepers (other than Tangrowth) with Ice Shard. Boosted Fire moves don't help them either. I just think that in general other sun pokemon are easier to deal with than Victini, the Pokemon that can OHKO everything.

HP fire and weather ball say hi, ok fire moves that get to 105 BP and 150 respectively, not only that helps them with steels and abomasnow, that and solarbeams/vine whip 180 BP is enough to take down most pokes after growth

Really, they can't reliably swich into any attack (bar sluge bomb for mamo) and victrebeel has survived ice shards since double speed meens you only has to give just enough Evs to outspeed specific stuff

You bait them and Flash fire acanine/houndoom come in, there you have a move powerful than V-create from victini (*1.5 to your previous calcs)

There are other pokes than can just come and benefit from it, and they don't fear water attacks anymore so you have several ways to create a more powerful team

 

[Oglemi]

Edit 2: Did I mention how awesome 252hp/252speed jolly Deoxys-D is? Bloo showed it to me the other day and I find that I can't make a team without him. It sets up hazards like a boss, shuts down slower walls and tanks hits like a boss. The set i'm using is SR / Spikes / Taunt / Recover
He's like Uxie on steroids.

lol I have been using almost the same exact thing except with Ice Beam over SR so I can fuck with Donphan and various other things. I've also been playing with a Bold nature instead of Jolly to allow Deo to tank stuff like Rhyperior more effectively. It is pretty much a boss.

 

[jas61292]

HP fire and weather ball say hi, ok fire moves that get to 105 BP and 150 respectively...

I said it didn't help them like Victini. Sure it can help them, especially those with Weather Ball, but anyone can run HP fire, it just gives them a 70 BP pseudo STAB, not the equivilant of 405 BP that Victini gets (not counting an item boost)

...and solarbeams/vine whip 180 BP is enough to take down most pokes after growth

Well, then your problem is not sun, its letting sweepers set up. That can cost you the battle vs any team. If you are complaining because you lose to boosted moves, then run something that can punish them for setting up.

You bait them and Flash fire acanine/houndoom come in, there you have a move powerful than V-create from victini (*1.5 to your previous calcs)

Then its just a game of prediction. That has nothing to do with sun, or Victini or anything. I just have a problem with a Pokemon that can 2KO anything in the metagame, and OHKO almost everything without needing to set up.

 

[Arc Tech]

Sun has to deal with vulpix though. If you manage to take advantage of it, you can probably win. You'd probably need your own weather starter though for it to be most effective (so they don't just sack vulpix, and to make them bing out vulpix multiple times to be punished).


Smash pass is very powerful, although once I updated my team a bit I only lost thanks to thunderpunch paralyzing and then full paralysis... (Smeargle was dead and Gorebyss too weak to pass again).

Other than Smashpass, I only see 3 other suspects:
1. Kyurem
2. Victini
3. Wobbuffet... works pretty much like in last gen OU. Countercoat if you try to attack, encore if you don't. Espeon/Xatu only make matters worse if he comes into a support pokemon. His defenses may not be enough in OU, but theyre good enough for most of UU (just stuff like v-create, sun boosted fire, and kyu blizzard/meteor).

 

[Gerard]

a +2/+2 boost is great since it's a one turn set-up, and chloropyll is a +2 in speed, so you bassicly got a shell smash whit no defense reduction, and with the chance of using a lot more bulk, again, i'm not saying victini is not broken in UU, i'm saying that people is letting sun slip easily since all they see is Victini, i've run into two victini-less sun teams that tear my team apart, just whit leafeon and tangrowth to sweep, immunity to status and SD/Growth to boost it's power, i managed to stall them for a while but it was damn hard, i can manage victini but so many things are just to much