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np: UU Suspect Test Round 1 - Sunny Days

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Gerard said:
a +2/+2 boost is great since it's a one turn set-up, and chloropyll is a +2 in speed, so you bassicly got a shell smash whit no defense reduction, and with the chance of using a lot more bulk, again, i'm not saying victini is not broken in UU, i'm saying that people is letting sun slip easily since all they see is Victini, i've run into two victini-less sun teams that tear my team apart, just whit leafeon and tangrowth to sweep, immunity to status and SD/Growth to boost it's power, i managed to stall them for a while but it was damn hard, i can manage victini but so many things are just to much
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That's completely true. Maybe there are too many things that benefit from sun. However that does not mean we should ban it. Maybe if we eliminate what may be broken first (Victini) it will let you free up the space on your team to counter those other Pokemon.

Arc Tech said:
3. Wobbuffet... works pretty much like in last gen OU. Countercoat if you try to attack, encore if you don't. Espeon/Xatu only make matters worse if he comes into a support pokemon. His defenses may not be enough in OU, but theyre good enough for most of UU (just stuff like v-create, sun boosted fire, and kyu blizzard/meteor).
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Fun fact, if you take what I believe to be the standard Wobbs EV spread (4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD) and shift 4 EVs from SpD to HP, it is guaranteed to survive 1 CB Victini V-Create or 1 non CB Sun boosted V-Create if it is at full HP. Kinda Ridiculous for no resistances.
 
jas61292 said:
That's completely true. Maybe there are too many things that benefit from sun. However that does not mean we should ban it. Maybe if we eliminate what may be broken first (Victini) it will let you free up the space on your team to counter those other Pokemon.
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As much as I hate weather (and anyone who watched the other suspect knows I do). I agree that sun should be tested first, without Vicini in it...

@Supreme: Just for my curiosity, is Mew a BP, or just BU + 3 attacks?
 
BU/Shadow Claw/Drain Punch/Substitute, the same set I've been using since the outset of Gen 5 once I found out Drain Punch got buffed. It's very effective. Taking less than Lefties recovery from Arcanine ESpeed is always fun, and not having subs broken by Flare Blitz can cause ragequits.

My EV Spread was originally designed to weather Shadow Ball from Shadow Tag Chandelure when it tries to revenge, and then OHKO back with +1 Shadow Claw. It still works fine in UU.
 
Kyurem is retarded. I'm using a mixed stallbreaker and it just ploughs through things. There is basically no UU pokemon that can take Draco Meteor followed by Outrage. Chansey can just about avoid the 2HKO but it can't exactly touch you return. With my EV's, Outrage is 2HKOing some of the Slowbro I have seen too, which basically forces it to switch out after the first round, possibly allowing something else to take a retarded amount of damage.
 
OK, i guess a victini-less sun will be ok to teste, but it will still be broken (my suicune barely survived a 2HKO flame blast with no hazzard from charizard), it's just ridiculous
 
Charizard's Fire Blast is actually stronger than Victini's V-create anyway. So I've been doing some more testing, and I think Mew should be suspect. Nasty Plot+Bulk is just ridiculous, because it's really hard to revenge kill without strong STAB SE moves. The unpredictability also give you an advantage in that getting a nasty plot is retardedly easy. Once you actually get one, Psyshock+Aura Sphere+Shadow Ball is just plain silly. If you manage rocks, you kill just about everything, and of course I'm running Wobbuffet so if you do revenge kill you lose a pokemon too. Combined with a nice Wallbreaker, Revenge Killer, Smashpass check and Victini check, it hasn't lost outside of misplays on my part so far. (and my peak is #32, so it's not like I'm not very high on the ladder)
 
FastFlygon said:
Charizard's Fire Blast is actually stronger than Victini's V-create anyway. So I've been doing some more testing, and I think Mew should be suspect. Nasty Plot+Bulk is just ridiculous, because it's really hard to revenge kill without strong STAB SE moves. The unpredictability also give you an advantage in that getting a nasty plot is retardedly easy. Once you actually get one, Psyshock+Aura Sphere+Shadow Ball is just plain silly. If you manage rocks, you kill just about everything, and of course I'm running Wobbuffet so if you do revenge kill you lose a pokemon too. Combined with a nice Wallbreaker, Revenge Killer, Smashpass check and Victini check, it hasn't lost outside of misplays on my part so far. (and my peak is #32, so it's not like I'm not very high on the ladder)
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Disagree, mew can run a lot of sets, but usually those sets can be run by a better poke (The CM set, Mismag pulls of better with 105, 105 105 offensive stats, the NP set, Azelf pulls off so much better, ect). What makes Mew interesting is that He can run a muiltitude of sets, but I don't think any of them are considered broken. Even in UU, his usage is really not that high, and one the set is found out, it is much easiar to counter.

And, pretty much every set mew runs that is popular can be hurt with taunt, so yeah.
 
252 Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0/0 Tangrowth: 52.8% - 62.2%

So are people running a combination of both Mamoswine AND Weaville, or...
 
and other bunch of flash fire sers can come by and begin to sweep with triple Stabbed fire attacks, and is not like they are useless outside of taing those attacks, arcanine has proven to be really hard to stop, normally it could die to recoil but with morning sun is unstoppable
 
+2 LO Earthquake vs. Entei: 131% - 154.2%
+1 LO Earthquake vs. 252/0 Arcanine: 100% - 117.7%

I'm not even going to bother doing calcs for Rock Slide.

I suppose they can OHKO him back if they hit him. Mamoswine doesn't need to ohko tangrowth though. You're right about that. MixGrowth giga drains it up.
 
SupremeDirt said:
LOL

Why do you need to OHKO Tangrowth?

BTW, Entei, Arcanine, and a bunch of other Fire types can OHKO.
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Because Giga Drain exists and it 1hkos Entei, Arcanine, and bunch of other Fire types with Earthquake/Rock Slide.
Scarfers with at least 85 speed will Outspeed Tangrowth in the sun. Heracross does 93.8% - 110.3% to 0/0 with Megahorn. Any scarf'd special attacker with 85+ speed can 1hko with a Fire attack. Of course FF users can come in on the scarf'd fire attacks get a nice boost.
 
Tangrowth CB 252 Adamant EQ against 248/252 Bold Entei (the set that I run personally) does 55.4% - 65.6%, which is only a 2HKO WITH CHOICE BAND.

Without CB it does 37.0% - 43.9%, not even a 2HKO.

*EDIT* Fair enough, +2 and LO does 95.6% - 112.7%. However, when facing Sun, I tend to get myself in as early as possible and get a Sub up and start CMing.

Also by that logic Scarf Entei/Arcanine/Typhlosion can come in and take out Tangrowth with Scarf'd Eruption/Flare Blitz.
 
I've never seen anyone use Choice Band Tangrowth in any generation or any tier ever. But PEMN afterall.

+2 LO Tangrowth Earthquake vs. Your Entei: 75.8% - 89.1%

Which is an ohko with rocks. But this can be solved with spin support. By the way, the tangrowth in this calc has NO INVESTMENT in his attack stat. So any tangrowth using growth on a drought team will toss you in the trash bin.

Tangrowth is ohko'd back by sun boosted flamethrower or flare blitz though, even with no offensive investment from entei's part.
 
Question, other than the already obvious suspects everyone has already pointed out(sun/victini, Kyurem, chansey, mew*), what else is perceived as broken in this metagame?

*i don't think mew nor chansey are broken, at least for now
 
Gerard said:
Question, other than the already obvious suspects everyone has already pointed out(sun/victini, Kyurem, chansey, mew*), what else is perceived as broken in this metagame?

*i don't think mew nor chansey are broken, at least for now
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Nasty Plot Celebi. And lol at Chansey being considered broken.
 
Malvira said:
Nasty Plot Celebi. And lol at Chansey being considered broken.
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Lol at calling NP Celebi broken. Grass/Psychic is one of the worse typings in the game. Weak to Fire, Ice, Dark, Ghost, Flying, and 4x weak to Bug.

I will forfeit this point, that chansey is considered broken. I think we need another month without Vicini, and probably Kyugem before making a decision.

Unless something else is ravaging the metagame I am unaware of, I would only think Vicini and Kyugem should leave.
 
Mishra said:
Lol at calling NP Celebi broken. Grass/Psychic is one of the worse typings in the game. Weak to Fire, Ice, Dark, Ghost, Flying, and 4x weak to Bug.
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You forgot Poison...

Mishra said:
Unless something else is ravaging the metagame I am unaware of, I would only think Vicini and Kyugem should leave.
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I pretty much agree. Maybe guys like Chansey deserve to be voted on, but I don't think there is anyone else I firmly believe should go.
 
Mishra said:
Lol at calling NP Celebi broken. Grass/Psychic is one of the worse typings in the game. Weak to Fire, Ice, Dark, Ghost, Flying, and 4x weak to Bug.

I will forfeit this point, that chansey is considered broken. I think we need another month without Vicini, and probably Kyugem before making a decision.

Unless something else is ravaging the metagame I am unaware of, I would only think Vicini and Kyugem should leave.
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You forgot about Celebi's Grass, Electric, Psychic, Water, Fighting, and Ground resistances. You also mentioned nothing of its awesome bulk, good speed, and the ability to KO most of its enemies packing moves it's especially weak to, like Heracross, Mamoswine, Escavalier, Abomasnow, and Kyurem (!!!).

And while we're on that note, I don't believe there's a single standalone sweeper that manages to stand out in a metagame where our most obvious suspects dominate (Kyurem, Victini, Sun). Things like NP Azelf and Celebi get run over by the sheer speed and force of Sun teams. Victini and Kyurem are so prone to killing that I'm not even going to waste my breath on anything else until those two are gone.
 
Mishra said:
Unless something else is ravaging the metagame I am unaware of, I would only think Vicini and Kyugem should leave.
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I would agree with this. After Victini (and likely Kyurem) leave UU, we will see how Chansey and Drought Vulpix hold up without them.

It's interesting to note that Venusaur is the only Chlorophyll user that is OU currently, and just barely, at #51 of 53. The sheer number of viable sun abusers in UU means they all compete with each other for slots, and only on Sun teams, which will probably keep their usage down in UU territory. With so many powerful sweepers, I'm anxious about Drought's future...
 
Shroomisaur said:
It's interesting to note that Venusaur is the only Chlorophyll user that is OU currently, and just barely, at #51 of 53. The sheer number of viable sun abusers in UU means they all compete with each other for slots, and only on Sun teams, which will probably keep their usage down in UU territory. With so many powerful sweepers, I'm anxious about Drought's future...
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And you think that's a bad thing, seriously if he was here i think the metagame would pretty much be swifting into anything that whitstand venusaur, just now you need something that can stand double stabbed v-create and kyurem, i really hope he remains OU until drough is banned
 
One thing I'd like to bring up that hasn't been getting too much discussion is NP Azelf, it's like the UU version of Mewtwo, packing insane coverage, ridiculous power, and blazing speed, after one boost, it can 1-2HKO pretty much everything in the tier with a simple set of NP, Psycho Shock, Fire blast, Thunderbolt. I think the only things that can stop that set are Sucker Punchers, Weaville, Scarfers, and the few (relevant) things that outspeed him, of those sucker punchers are put at a mind game as to whether or not Azelf will switch out, Plot again or attack. This goes both ways though, so I'll give it that. Weaville is the best thing to a counter to this set, it can survive an unboosted Thunderbolt I believe outspeed and remove it with pursuit, it only has to worry about Plotted 'Bolt, and FB. Scarfers are as always wobb bait (which I believe to be broken by himself, but the combo is ridiculous), but the fact that they share weaknesses can leave holes (such as scarf-cross' megahorn). The things that outspeed can revenge granted, but those are: Jolteon, Aerodactyl, Crobat, Ninjask, Accelgor, Electrode, Dugtrio, Sceptile. That list may have some useful candidates, but how many can be eliminated by wobb, and how easy is it to remove them? I know I stated Wobb as part of the reason for his brokenness, but azelf is BL by itself
 
Gerard said:
And you think that's a bad thing, seriously if he was here i think the metagame would pretty much be swifting into anything that whitstand venusaur, just now you need something that can stand double stabbed v-create and kyurem, i really hope he remains OU until drough is banned
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You completely misunderstood my post. I wasn't saying Venusaur should drop to UU at all (closer to the opposite actually)...

Fawfulmk-II said:
i'm new to the UU thread, so on the iusue of sun, are we discussing drought being banned or just drought Vulpix going to BL?
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Well, Drought Ninetales is perfectly legal in OU at the moment, so no, we're not talking about "banning" drought outright. BL is a banlist for UU, so when people here are talking about removing Drought, they're talking about making Vulpix BL. I hope I understood you correctly.
 
No i know you didn't mean it, i'm just saying that's for the best of the metagame he remains UU while drough remains

PS: you can't have drough whitout vulpix in UU so banning vulpix is the same of banning drough (Sunny Day would still de perfectly legal), and if Ninetales at any point becomes UU then it would be banned if vulpix was
 
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