• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'd taunt you with azelf, then you hit me with shadowball(and yes azelf would be bulky enough to survive the first hit, damn if it isnt then something is wrong with that azelf) and then I set up light screen and then you KO me...then i switch in my smash passer...the situation is now: you have a taunted mismagius and I have a smash passer behind a light screen...yeah right now I have the upper hand..there is really too much risk for BP teams to have a poke behind a sub..ive won a few matches because the team made that mistake...that's a difference between a good player and a bad player

Sorry but it takes a dumb motherfucker to leave a Taunted Mismagius in to get the last hit on Azelf vs a BP team (hint: you already know it's a BP team because of team preview). Why would you ever leave an attacker out with it's main attacks screened that's Taunted to get the last hit when you don't have to? You're going to lose if you do that. Switch to some U-turn, Volt Switcher, set up mon to force him to Taunt and waste turns with screens - not that hard. Or just something with enough power to KO set up sweepers through screens (like Escavalier or Medicham).
 
Sorry but it takes a dumb motherfucker to leave a Taunted Mismagius in to get the last hit on Azelf vs a BP team (hint: you already know it's a BP team because of team preview). Why would you ever leave an attacker out with it's main attacks screened that's Taunted to get the last hit when you don't have to? You're going to lose if you do that. Switch to some U-turn, Volt Switcher, set up mon to force him to Taunt and waste turns with screens - not that hard. Or just something with enough power to KO set up sweepers through screens (like Escavalier or Medicham).

And that's the HUGE difference between smart and bad players...I can agree with you on that..because now the momentum is on your side...but that doesnt mean your opponent isnt good and not prepared for this and its gg...gorebyss barely survives a CB megahorn from escavalier which allows it BP shell smash to something that can take its megahorn(nidoking)..medicham is a tricky one mainly because it can utilize trick and attack hard
 
Actually it takes a dumb motherfucker to assume how the opponent plays. For example, if I see something threatening via team preview, that means I'm opting to perhaps use one of my more offensive Pokes first before attempting to set up the Smash Pass. It doesn't have to be won right by turn 3. Or I can just set screens and start stating up with other standalone Pokes. No one wants to fight a SDGallade, for example, especially when it's being backed by screens. Any good player knows you don't form your whole team around one hit or miss strategy. Gorebyss enhances the team, not defines it. It can speed it up, but it doesn't necessarily mean it has to be used to win. That's being ignorant, which are you repeatedly keep doing here.
 
I know people refuse to use Pokemon because they find them broken, I just think that's counterproductive, hence my post. Wobbuffet might well be completely broken, but I won't ever know that if the only people using it on the ladder are scrubs (which frankly seems to be the case so far, with a couple of exceptions). Even the most broken suspects can be beaten with superior play, so if good players don't use suspects then those suspects are unlikely to be banned.
You could also argue that with the tier being such a mess of one or two overpowering Pokemon that its driving people off playing as well. To be fair from what I've noticed is FAR less people are playing UU now during busy times then the initial first stage.

Its not helping that RU recently started up and some players who would normally play UU are starting to move towards it in hopes of avoiding the broken mess of obvious BL's in UU.

Quite frankly some of the things causing problems in this stage could've obviously been dealt with a quick ban early on. I know I along with a few others mentioned Wobbuffet, Mew and Staraptor in the first round and its only now some people are beginning to see that its true they're genuine problems.

I personally think at the moment UU will continue to drag its feet unless this round sees a large ammount of bans in the continually debated Chansey/Victini/Staraptor/Wobbuffet/Mew. But at the moment with Chansey/Wobbs having no nomination it could be some time.

On the case of Smashpass, well thats just the style of BP teams in general. Given there is a triple +2 boost but to me it seems if the more broken things are taken out, then more counters would become viable since I've used things like Unaware Clef, Power Swap Tangrowth/Altaria/Exeggutor/Shiftry, Trick Room, Taunt, Psych Up, Snatch to great effect sometimes.
 
OK, I'll admit that I severely miscommunicated my intent in giving the Chansey-Slowbro comparison. It was largely intended to be intent-neutral, with a perspective using the numbers instead of just "Mamoswine EQ".

Also:

252 SpD Calm Chansey's SpD: 339
SpD / 16: 21 1/16
SpD / 8: 42 1/8

0 SpD Eviolite Chansey's SpD: 369
SpD / 8: 46 1/8

Basically 252 SpD Calm Chansey needs two turns of Leftovers for every attack that she takes to retain the same bulk as 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey. Make of that what you will.
 
I'm going back a couple of pages, but I actually think that when Torrent Simpour is released it will be pretty decent. +2 Torrent Hydro Pump (and you can get there with Substitute easily thanks to 101 base speed) is a clean 2HKO on Chansey IIRC, definately so with SR and 1 Spikes. That's pretty impressive for something with 98 base special attack. I mean with salac, I would consider using it in OU, because with a little bit of prior damage on the more bulky pokemon, you would literally rape everything with rain support. I mean it's OHKOing Blissey after 3 Spikes good.
Fragility is a massive problem though. Getting that initial sub wouldn't be easy, plus you only get one coverage move. Still, with support, it could be pretty good.
 
Although Petaya and Salac berries aren't out yet, anything subpetaya simipour does is done better by agility subpetaya empoleon.
 
how does either beat chansey? it's not like simipour actually has a stab at that goal either, lol. 64% chance of hitting twice is inherently terrible.

plus, if you assume a set of hydro pump/sub/NP, you see that you've burned 3 moveslots on something that doesn't even have perfect coverage.
 
i feel as though mew is terribly strong and should be banned.

I couldn't agree further. Mew's sheer versatality in its movepool accompanied by above average stats in all regards allows it to be tailored to beat any pokemon and fit on any team. This makes mew very difficult to counter or even check as each set requires seperate checks and counters. Thus I can only hope Mew gets kicked to BL this round.
 
I couldn't agree further. Mew's sheer versatality in its movepool accompanied by above average stats in all regards allows it to be tailored to beat any pokemon and fit on any team. This makes mew very difficult to counter or even check as each set requires seperate checks and counters. Thus I can only hope Mew gets kicked to BL this round.

This isn't a good argument for banning Mew. Mew might be able to run a billion sets, but if every single one of those sets has solid counters, then it is not broken. This is not to say that versatility doesn't matter (it does, a lot of people make that mistake with suspects) but rather that versatility should not be the predominant reason for the suspect's banning.

When I look at Mew, I acknowledge that all its sets are pretty badass, but I find that each individual set should be easily handled by any decently prepared team. If you're weak to NP Mew, you're probably also weak to NP Azelf and NP Celebi. If you're weak to stall mew, you're probably also weak to stall missy and taunt deoxys. The fact that mew can run both of these sets is irrelevant when you should be fully prepared for similar sets from other Pokemon anyway, not to mention that you should have a rough idea of what set mew is running just from the kind of team it's in (a mew on a team with ninjask probably isn't going to be a sweeper variant).

That said, it's entirely possible that someone will come up with a mew set that breaks it. Stallbreaker mew comes really close in my opinion, I can't count the number of teams (and not just stall teams) that have ragequit because they can't get past it. But until someone nominates one or two specific mew sets as "broken" and only then says "its versatility adds to its brokenness", I wouldn't vote it BL.

Foresety said:
You could also argue that with the tier being such a mess of one or two overpowering Pokemon that its driving people off playing as well. To be fair from what I've noticed is FAR less people are playing UU now during busy times then the initial first stage.

Its not helping that RU recently started up and some players who would normally play UU are starting to move towards it in hopes of avoiding the broken mess of obvious BL's in UU.

Quite frankly some of the things causing problems in this stage could've obviously been dealt with a quick ban early on. I know I along with a few others mentioned Wobbuffet, Mew and Staraptor in the first round and its only now some people are beginning to see that its true they're genuine problems.

I don't buy this argument. Kyurem and Drought broke the tier far harder than Staraptor and Chansey, and people didn't mind playing UU then. I think the reduced popularity of UU is almost entirely due in part to RU and VGC.

I would have liked a quickban as well, but I can definitely see how that wouldn't have been fair to the people who think Staraptor isn't broken. I don't think we should circumvent our suspect process unless a suspect's status has near unanimous consensus among the userbase.
 
Actually it takes a dumb motherfucker to assume how the opponent plays. For example, if I see something threatening via team preview, that means I'm opting to perhaps use one of my more offensive Pokes first before attempting to set up the Smash Pass. It doesn't have to be won right by turn 3. Or I can just set screens and start stating up with other standalone Pokes. No one wants to fight a SDGallade, for example, especially when it's being backed by screens. Any good player knows you don't form your whole team around one hit or miss strategy. Gorebyss enhances the team, not defines it. It can speed it up, but it doesn't necessarily mean it has to be used to win. That's being ignorant, which are you repeatedly keep doing here.

After playing with this strategy and winning soo many easy games, I have YET to lose a game unless the player has two or more priority users(Fourthchaser's team, mamoswine and arcanine for example), EXTREME hax, or a haze(and haze just makes it so i actually have to predict well, but really really rare lol)...and Ill admit fault that I have overhyped gorebyss when it has really been smeargle who has been the star... and against smart players there really isnt any time to set up screens...

setting up with your BP reciever dead on in the mactch is too risky...if you have team preview and you know that your opponent has a gallade counter without the smashpass boost or at least some threats weakened, even if he has setting behind a screen then why would you? but if its clear as day that their team is gallade weak heck go right ahead..I get what your saying, about not just smash passing right away and GG..but if its obvious clear as day from team preview than why not?
 
I don't buy this argument. Kyurem and Drought broke the tier far harder than Staraptor and Chansey, and people didn't mind playing UU then. I think the reduced popularity of UU is almost entirely due in part to RU and VGC.
With Kyurem and Drought around however, it was less noticeable but fact was you could easily notice they weren't the only problems. Drought actually gave you options for breaking through Chansey and there was sweepers who could outspeed, overpower and threaten a Raptor with revenge kills. Kyurem gave a pre-existing style (Hail) a overpowering central figure making Hail viably dominant.

Now Drought and Kyurem is gone, its only glaringly obvious that only one half of the problem was dealt with and the other now has free reign. Dugtrio no longer needs to fear Hail and being outsped in Sun and being picked off as easily now and is more viable with Wobbs who was pretty ridiculous before as it is for picking off Sun team threats. Raptor has near free reign to do as it likes without fearing a easy revenge kill and as Kyurem is gone its the next in line for a piss easy zero prediction nuke. Chansey no longer gets insta-killed by Sun teams/Victini V-create.

Mew has an easier time now enforcing BP and stall teams with the level of offense knocked down a notch. For the record, its my opinion the dominant Mew sets tend to be the BP and Stall sets but BP more so. Its kinda like the same issue with Smashpass but you can come in multiple times to try again, as for its stall set it has Chansey as a partner. Thats all really needs saying...
 
This isn't a good argument for banning Mew. Mew might be able to run a billion sets, but if every single one of those sets has solid counters, then it is not broken. This is not to say that versatility doesn't matter (it does, a lot of people make that mistake with suspects) but rather that versatility should not be the predominant reason for the suspect's banning.

When I look at Mew, I acknowledge that all its sets are pretty badass, but I find that each individual set should be easily handled by any decently prepared team. If you're weak to NP Mew, you're probably also weak to NP Azelf and NP Celebi. If you're weak to stall mew, you're probably also weak to stall missy and taunt deoxys. The fact that mew can run both of these sets is irrelevant when you should be fully prepared for similar sets from other Pokemon anyway, not to mention that you should have a rough idea of what set mew is running just from the kind of team it's in (a mew on a team with ninjask probably isn't going to be a sweeper variant).

That said, it's entirely possible that someone will come up with a mew set that breaks it. Stallbreaker mew comes really close in my opinion, I can't count the number of teams (and not just stall teams) that have ragequit because they can't get past it. But until someone nominates one or two specific mew sets as "broken" and only then says "its versatility adds to its brokenness", I wouldn't vote it BL.

You raise a valid point, many of Mew's sets are similar to other pokemon and each set has a check or a counter and I would agree that no one set is broken(although I despise the Taunt WoW Mew). But what breaks Mew is the versatility it brings to each set. Mew's counters are dependent upon the set it runs which can be said for many pokemon upper level pokemon. However Mew's versatility makes these counters vary drastically from set to set. In a battle where you are unaware of the Mew set a team is running, Mew holds the element of surprise. Once the set is identified it is easier to handle as it plays similar to other pokemon as you mentioned but in the time it takes you to scout a moveset Mew could have passed to a sweeper, be ready to sweep, or crippled a key member of your team.
 
That's why the best counters are going to be offensive ones as they were with Cresselia (and I'm still against banning Cresselia). Mew can change many things but not its weaknesses. For example, no Mew enjoys a Megahorn to the face regardless of its set. No Mew enjoys being statused. No Mew enjoys being Pursuited.
 
Actually... it can change it's weaknesses too (transform anyone?).
Hohoho just saying

About Shellpass, i can assure many people here that, if Gorebyss gets defeated, 80% of the players that tries to abuse this strategy will quit the match. Maybe they are bad players that "can't make teams" without relying on Gorebyss for it's success.

I would quit but that's not the case



aaaaanyway, the only thing i see being broken is Mew, but i'm too lazy to explain why so i'll just use the arguments of people who thinks Mew is broken too (though i could add a thing or two for the sentence) . So whatever, see ya people
 
i have a team that has screens, an d ste-up sweepers that can use gorebyss, they don't need it and if he dies it's not that important, but after getting the SS is an extremely powerful poke, then support added and you'll get clean games with a little prediction, you can pass to espeon if roar, you can sub if status, d-tail, etc..., it's not that hard, but it's easy to see that without espeon it would be almost impossible without taunt (which all but smeargle lack of)
 
I tried a new tactic today. What I do is I throw a shitload of EVs into Wobbuffet and Wynaut's Special Defense and HP and put Charm on their movesets. I then get Murkrow and another Perish song user (I use Altaria, some might use Celebi) and abuse Perish trapping to the max. To make sure that they don't kill you, you lower their stats as much as possible with Charm. I also throw in a Dugtrio with Stone Edge, Earthquake, Substitute, and Protect so that even Dugtrio can stall while Perish Song kills them off. All you need is a last poke. I abused parahax to make sure that I don't die while they try to survive, so I had a Lanturn. It worked suprisingly well. I'd like people to try this and tell me what they think of Wobbuffet now.
 
I tried a new tactic today. What I do is I throw a shitload of EVs into Wobbuffet and Wynaut's Special Defense and HP and put Charm on their movesets. I then get Murkrow and another Perish song user (I use Altaria, some might use Celebi) and abuse Perish trapping to the max. To make sure that they don't kill you, you lower their stats as much as possible with Charm. I also throw in a Dugtrio with Stone Edge, Earthquake, Substitute, and Protect so that even Dugtrio can stall while Perish Song kills them off. All you need is a last poke. I abused parahax to make sure that I don't die while they try to survive, so I had a Lanturn. It worked suprisingly well. I'd like people to try this and tell me what they think of Wobbuffet now.

This seems like a great strategy. How many kills does it net you anyhow?

I can see 2-3 at least if KrowWobbsTrio are on the same team.
 
I find Froslass to be incredibly useful, as Taunt+Spikes+Destiny Bond pretty much fucks with anything defensive. Staraptor is also proving to be a beast this round (i'm basically trying to get voting rights to NOT ban it :)) Zapdos is ridiculous... SubRoost rapes anything slower than it. Honestly, I think SmashPassing isn't that bad, as it can be played around, but it is somewhat retarded if it somehow sets up... The thing that annoys me the most actually is Wobbuffet God that thing is hella annoying, even with the encore nerf, it just annoys the hell out of me. Ban that thing for sure...

In other news, i'm only 100 points away from qualifying!! :D
 
How would you stop a shell smash without Haze?

P-Hazing(Dragon Tail/Roar), Clear Smog, Power Swap.

Yeah, not much.

Smashes are ridiculously easy to do, and if a Smeargle Smashes on the switch, you are pretty much screwed, since at +2 with a +Spe nature Smeargle outspeeds everything, and can proceed to Spore.

Only Murkrow IMO is a hard counter to Smashpass as it has priority on Taunt, to prevent any Sporing shenanigans, and Haze, to remove any boosts. Murkrow however even with Eviolite isn't going to be switching into a +2 Ice Beam from Gorebyss any day.
 
P-Hazing(Dragon Tail/Roar), Clear Smog, Power Swap.

Yeah, not much.

Smashes are ridiculously easy to do, and if a Smeargle Smashes on the switch, you are pretty much screwed, since at +2 with a +Spe nature Smeargle outspeeds everything, and can proceed to Spore.

Only Murkrow IMO is a hard counter to Smashpass as it has priority on Taunt, to prevent any Sporing shenanigans, and Haze, to remove any boosts. Murkrow however even with Eviolite isn't going to be switching into a +2 Ice Beam from Gorebyss any day.

and against those counters:

Dragon Tail: really only milotic is commonly seen used with that and gorebyss uses that as set up bait (unless that milotic also has haze)

Clear Smog: Amoongus and weezing commonly seen with that...both are set up bait for smeargle...

Power Swap: I would LOL at that because of how rare it is, but no that would be a good counter..I wonder if it goes through sub though?..And I wonder if it is affected by Magic Mirror? The two common pokes that learn it is espeon and xatu, so that would be a good counter to smeargle, but Gorebyss can just KO both of them instead of immediately Baton Passing

And I cant agree more that Murkrow is the best counter to Smashpass..luckily Ive rarely ran into them..when i do I dont even try to smashpass..I just try to kill murkrow ASAP before the battle goes on

EDIT: But thats trying to stop BPing...once the BP reciever has it, It is possible to stop the sweep with one or two priority users, depending on the reciever
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top