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np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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A well-played Shell Smash team will ALWAYS beat any other well-played team, and that isn't the sign of a healthy metagame. BUT, I feel like that is only because of Espeon. Without Espeon, you are free to bring in a phazer, such as Milotic, Suicune, or some kind of bulky Mew, and phaze Gorebyss or his recipient before they can attack. Then, he wastes his White Herb and can be dealt with by priority easier if, for whatever reason, your phazer dies.
I would love to see Espeon gone first (even if it's not voted BL, it will probably move up to OU by usage later anyway) before Shell Smash passing is declared broken.
I would love to see Espeon gone first (even if it's not voted BL, it will probably move up to OU by usage later anyway) before Shell Smash passing is declared broken.
Quite the opposite. There are just some things SmashPassing teams can't do anything about. Haze, for instance. If Milotic can get in on Gorebyss or Huntail at all, the chain is automatically over because Espeon can't bounce it back. The only sure way to stop this is to make Celebi apart of the chain, but still, if it tries to pass to anything else on the team, Milotic is guaranteed to reset the chain again. I believe we've already discussed Murkrow.
Another easy way to ensure these chains never get off is to have both Roar and Dragon Tail on your team. Blastoise can get away with this easily since everything on its moveset besides Scald and Rapid Spin is filler. So can Mew or Steelix. Milotic makes a viable user of Dragon Tail too, in fact, but trying to run that and Haze on the same set will easily make you fodder for Substitutes.
Priority COULD stop the sweepers, but cant stop the passing from happening..the reason I say could is because some situations the sweeper is behind a sub (now that is a stupid move if the opponent let the happen lol) or in some cases if the priority is a move like sucker punch, the sweeper could have another set up move like SD gallade, now your left to the sucker punch mind games..
Phazing countered by espeon and smeargle..mostly espeon
Sturdy users..If I see a sturdy user in team preview(most common and probably only used donphan) Im makign sure that Stealth rock is up..if not then donphan can defintely stop the first wave sweeper..
Haze is the only reliable way, but if you are against something like Mew that can Taunt it's wasted, D-tail and Roar are unreliable since no dragon tail user will break subs without previous set-up, and roar is bounced back, and having both of them on the same poke is just... no
Hail Stall is really cool. It can be really hard to break. Froslass is so annoying, between Snow Cloak and Thunder Wave, 100% moves become 64% or something like that. That makes it really easy to set up a Sub and start laying down Spikes. Seriously, after one layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock, you are probably going to lose. 25% + Hail damage means that it's almost impossible to keep your sweepers healthy. Add into that a couple of Roar users, possible Toxic Spikes, and Froslass to revenge any sweepers that get out of hand with a fast Blizzard, it's quite good.
Nidoqueen is really amazing too. Most of your good Wish passers (Umbreon, Chansey, etc) lure in Fighting-types like a magnet. Just Wish as they come in, pass to Nidoqueen, and free hazards. Same thing works with Froslass, but Cobalion can screw her up. Abomasnow is great as well, Ice / Grass is great coverage. Steel and Fire-types give it issues, but Spikes + SR + Hail + Leech Seed means that they can't come in more than...once? Twice?
Overall, Haiil Stall is great.
Nidoqueen is really amazing too. Most of your good Wish passers (Umbreon, Chansey, etc) lure in Fighting-types like a magnet. Just Wish as they come in, pass to Nidoqueen, and free hazards. Same thing works with Froslass, but Cobalion can screw her up. Abomasnow is great as well, Ice / Grass is great coverage. Steel and Fire-types give it issues, but Spikes + SR + Hail + Leech Seed means that they can't come in more than...once? Twice?
Overall, Haiil Stall is great.
Dragon Tail doesn't have to break Subs. If it's under a Sub, you know it's going to pass to Espeon to prevent the Roar, so attack instead. If your opponent doesn't even know you have Dragon Tail on something like Blastoise that will obviously use Roar, you'll get your free phaze anyway. And finally, if "just...no" is the best retort you can come up with as to why you can't use a metagame-viable set on metagame-viable Pokemon to beat Baton Passing strategies, then I have no sympathy for you when you lose.
As a matter of fact, I've had an interesting experience with this in OU where my opponent had an obvious Baton Passing team and lead with their Espeon to set up Dual Screens. In response, I lead with my DD Haxorus, and kept clicking Dragon Dance while they set up Screens. Things got pretty ugly from there. I'm imagining a similar scenario with, say, SubCM Raikou. I think Flare was right on the money earlier when he said that one of the best ways to steal momentum from Baton Passing teams was to lead off with something they can't handle. They can't pull off the strategy if you don't give them time to set up.
I actually found Nidoqueen pretty underwhelming. I saw that if I wanted it to be bulky, I needed a spread like 252/252 +Def, and then that left me vulnerable to any attacks from the other side of the spectrum. I also noticed that I had no offensive power, and that if I wanted some than I'd need to spend more EVs. So my experience with Nidoqueen has been that there aren't enough EVs to make her work. Not bulky on both sides of the spectrum, not powerful enough, and set up bait.
The no was having d-tail + roar on the same Pokemon, that offer no real "coverage" other than beating BP Shell Smash, not at having those moves on your team, many set-up sweepers are great at beating BPSS, sub Missy is a great pokemon being able to set-up a sub and use NP/CM, and with chansey flying around is a great pokemon otherwise, just run enough speed to beat smeargle
I understand what the 'no' was for and it still sounds to me like you're resisting perfectly good countermeasures to a popular strategy in UU, and furthermore, using it as an excuse for why it's too hard to hard to handle. Blastoise is still a good spinner without Toxic, Steelix is still a good tank without Gyro Ball, etc. You're not really giving up anything by having Roar and Dragon Tail on the same Pokemon if you take away the move they need the least for a greater cause. Also, how do you expect to beat both Substitute abusers, Taunt setup sweepers, and Espeon on a regular basis if you aren't using both? I used to run a Steelix with both Roar and Dragon Tail in RU just to phaze any and everything and not once did I find myself wondering "Gee, I wish I had Gyro Ball...."
Do what you need to do to win. Start running Roar and Dragon Tail on the same Pokemon if it's going to help you beat Baton Pass teams. There's nothing wrong with being prepared.
Do what you need to do to win. Start running Roar and Dragon Tail on the same Pokemon if it's going to help you beat Baton Pass teams. There's nothing wrong with being prepared.
I haven't need it, but ok, it does sound like a good measure since you can play mind tricks with the foe, i haven't really need it but i guess that's only me, also i'm not saying that it's really hard to handle, i actually haven't say anything about shell smash passing, altough i find full BP teams to be really annoying with espeon, missy has proven to be really nice since i have something like mew (that can taunt) i use shadow ball (which easily 2HKOes even bulky variants)
If Roar+D-tail on the same Pokemon was one of the only ways to beat Shell Smash BP then maybe I'd consider it broken because it's terrible. If you think otherwise, you clearly haven't tried it.....But there are so many better ways to deal with BPSS, most (if not all) of them have even been listed in this thread.
Dragon Tail and Roar in conjunction up some amazing mind games where Taunt users can't keep you from phazing them out and you can rack up damage against the team easier by forcing them to switch and take damage as they do. Bulky Substitute users aren't safe either because you have Roar. Earthquake is the only STAB move Steelix really needs to be effective. Most Flying types like Staraptor will switch out right away anyways...into something that's going to take damage from hazards be phazed by Dragon Tail right away.
I don't have a gigantic list of viable Pokemon that can utilize Dragon Tail and Roar without sacrificing a viable slot. But the arguments against it are quite frankly shitty.
I guess I just assumed no one would actually try that (though I did not think of Steelix). Roar / Dragon Tail / Earthquake / Stealth Rock Steelix may be somewhat viable since Explosion now sucks, but you really miss the ability to use Toxic. This is strengthened by the fact that at the end of the day, Steelix (0 Atk) still can't break Espeon's (Max HP / 0 Def) Subs after Reflect with Earthquake. Most other BP team members and Shell Smash users, such as Gorebyss (also has BP), Omastar, etc, have STAB Surf which Steelix can't deal with in the first place.
Again, Steelix would also have trouble with BP Mew. Taunt, if it predicts wrong you Dragon Tail it out. In comes another Pokemon, but this one can Substitute without hesitation.
Of course, if Mew predicts right at the very beginning, then it can Substitute on you then and there.
I think I've alreay noted that I consider full Baton Pass chains a much greater threat than SmashPass teams, but I'd like to add that when it comes down to a matter of what I'm planning to ultimately nominate, I think it'll be the move Baton Pass itself. Gen. 5 has just created too many situations in which it it easy to win with Baton Pass and extraordinarily difficult to stop--SmashPass is one thing, but many of the things that beat SmashPass won't stop a Venomoth QuiverPass, which can honestly be just as nasty. Nor will something like Haze Milotic or Roar Suicune stop a Swords Dance or Nasty Plot Celebi, for instance. If we tried to ban the individual abusers, I honestly believe we'd end up banning about seven Pokemon (Gorebyss/Huntail/Smeargle/Celebi/Mew/Venomoth/Espeon). I think it's a lot easier, and better for the metagame in the long run, just to ban Baton Pass itself outright.
Before, they were doing it in OU and Ubers, respectively. They aren't exactly BPing versus the quality of Pokes that they used to.
They've been doing it in OU, not in UU, where the standard of mons is somewhat lower due to lower usage.
Well, they were both OU/Ubers, respectively, so it was a bit more difficult for them to Baton Pass in those environments. Now, you're basically relying on something like Prankster Murkrow or Dragon Tail + Haze Blastoise/Milotic to stop Baton Pass, two checks that aren't that reliable when you really think about it. Eviolite Murkrow is going to get picked apart by Special Attacks, has a Stealth Rock weakness so it can't afford to be switching in constantly. Blastoise and Milotic both eventually end up losing to something like Celebi with Giga Drain/Seed Bomb (depending on what you're BPing), so that's really a problem.
That's just my take on this whole thing though.
Ok then, shouldn't Mew and Celebi be banned in that case? They are two of the the most diverse Pokemon in the tier, and can sweep both physically AND specially, so being able to Baton Pass (not a full chain, that would be obvious) as well can easily catch the opponent with a wrong check, allowing for a easy Baton Pass + sweep.
Otherwise, I still feel that without Espeon, nothing else Baton Pass related could even be close to broken. It would be infinitely easier to Taunt the chain, phaze the chain out (No Roar reflecting, loss of Dual Screener to help block Dragon Tail, etc.), and you still have Perish Song and Haze (Altaria does both well, and can withstand any of the Psychic, Grass, and Bug attacks of the non-Shell Smashers, and Gorebyss/Huntail that have Substitute over Ice Beam/Fang). Until Volbeat gets his God Tier priority Encore + Tail Glow passing from DW, Baton Pass/Shell Smash is too easily dealt with outside of Espeon in my opinion.
Otherwise, I still feel that without Espeon, nothing else Baton Pass related could even be close to broken. It would be infinitely easier to Taunt the chain, phaze the chain out (No Roar reflecting, loss of Dual Screener to help block Dragon Tail, etc.), and you still have Perish Song and Haze (Altaria does both well, and can withstand any of the Psychic, Grass, and Bug attacks of the non-Shell Smashers, and Gorebyss/Huntail that have Substitute over Ice Beam/Fang). Until Volbeat gets his God Tier priority Encore + Tail Glow passing from DW, Baton Pass/Shell Smash is too easily dealt with outside of Espeon in my opinion.
Banning Baton Pass is not a good idea. If you guys want to point fingers at anything, consider Espeon for its ability to take Taunt and Roar off of the table, two regularly seen moves anyone can incorporate on a standard team.
The thing I'm not hearing about is the success stories of the players using Baton Pass teams. Is anyone really winning that consistently with these strategies?
The thing I'm not hearing about is the success stories of the players using Baton Pass teams. Is anyone really winning that consistently with these strategies?
M_Dragon has been having quite a bit of success I believe.
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