which is sad because they have soo much potential going for them...best if I had to say which was the best it would be Simipour, the water one..
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np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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which is sad because they have soo much potential going for them...best if I had to say which was the best it would be Simipour, the water one..
RAGE
Also, it seems rather wrong to rely on 77% accurate moves... I mean Victini does have Thunderbolt at least.
Also, just so we don't keep seeing these reports of Chansey's physical bulk, I'll just mention that 252/252+ Slowbro is 9.7% bulkier physically than 252/252+ Chansey (with Eviolite).
And Chansey is 215% bulkier than Slowbro on the special side.
People aren't saying "man chansey is such a great physical wall", people are saying "why the fuck is chansey an amazing special wall and a great physical wall and a great supporter". The fact that it even has comparable defense to Slowbro, who is a dedicated physical wall, says a lot.
I'm not sure what your intention was with that statistic but that definitely makes matters worse for Chansey.
Yeah, Chansey's defense isn't THAT good, I think just it's a bit shocking for people, since they've been used to Chansey being quite poor defensively for the past 10 years, but now it's suddenly got almost as good phsical defense as Slowbro.
Max Defense Bold Chansey with Eviolite is a stupid set anyway. It takes on special attackers worse than Chansey did in DPP. Don't even try and compare Chansey's defense to Slowbro because Slowbro actually has usual resists, leftovers, and Regenerator, allowing it to sponge weak hits/force switches and switch out with less dependence on using recovery moves that give your opponent a free turn.
You should really do some basic calculations before posting things like this. Max defense Chansey is absolutely not a stupid set; it is and should be the standard set for Chansey. Also, Chansey takes special attacks much better than it did in DPP:
Mixquaza LO Draco Meteor versus 252/252+ Chansey: 32.8% - 38.8%
Mixquaza LO Draco Meteor versus 252/0 Evolite Chansey: 30% - 35.5%
So even Chansey's most specially-oriented DPP set takes special attackers worse than our current Chansey does with no investment. This means Chansey can concentrate almost entirely on its physical defense, turning into an absolutely ridiculous mixed wall.
You bring up Slowbro resistances, yet fail to mention its 6 weaknesses. You bring up Regenerator, yet fail to bring up Natural Cure. You don't point out that Slowbro cannot support its teammates with Wish and Aromatherapy, while Chansey can.
You're right though, Chansey is simply not comparable to Slowbro or any other defensive threat in the metagame...because it's much better.
While I haven't seen it much in UU and really haven't used it much in UU myself, Umbreon really fits all those roles pretty well. Above average HP and fantastic defenses, coupled with a decent support movepool with things like Wish and Heal Bell. It might not be the best at any of those things, but it can certainly do them all.
In addition to what Flare said, what exactly are you planning on doing with the SpD EVs? What special attacker do you not wall? None of these Pokemon (which I can count with my fingers on one hand) are stopped by more SpD EVs; they beat Chansey for other reasons (Taunt / Recovery).
So is anyone is disagreement that shellsmash+pass IS BROKEN? I mean out of every team ive seen playing against and playing against it personally...only win because A.) by hax B.) having haze or C.) having an immense amount of priority users to temporaliy stop the first wave of the passing, then have the moment turned to them...
I would point out that the only thing that makes Baton passing even strong is espeon...but espeon itself i wouldnt consider broken but makes BP teams (not just shell smashing) harder :(
I would point out that the only thing that makes Baton passing even strong is espeon...but espeon itself i wouldnt consider broken but makes BP teams (not just shell smashing) harder :(
At the minimum, the following need to go:
Chansey
Staraptor
Espeon
Mew
Victini
God I hate this metagame. /end rant
I'll back these up later when I have time.
Chansey
Staraptor
Espeon
Mew
Victini
God I hate this metagame. /end rant
I'll back these up later when I have time.
Right here. I generally see SmashPassing or any other type of team overly reliant on Baton Passing as silly gimmicks where the players using them think they can garner free wins. From what I've seen, it usually never happened this way.
For one, once Espeon dies to repeated attacks, where is your strategy? Two, if you predict well, you can often get one free Roar in when you see an attack coming. If Espeon bounces back the Roar after, say, Ninjask passes one Speed Boost, you not only have a non-threatening Espeon on your hands, but you probably also Roared in something incredibly dangerous like Escavalier that can just keep attacking and kill you or anything you try to pass to just to keep the chain going.
In order for a Baton Passing team to work, the passer has to play not only intelligently, but smarter than you, which is about the same amount of effort required from any other good team and its main strategy. Once the chain is broken, it is stupidly hard to get momentum back and start it up again, and Espeon is the only Pokemon that can keep the chain going without having your Pokemon being phazed all day.
Also, I do not mind having to carry Haze around if my team is especially weak to these strategies, but you'd normally want a phazer around for any kind of strategy that revolves around boosting sweeps (EX: Suicune, Cobalion).
Full-blown Baton Passing teams just aren't going to cut it in this metagame. You need to have an alternate plan of action for when your first or even second goes awry, which is something SmashPassing teams just don't room to accommodate.
I agree with SJCrew. Smart tactics and prediction beats smashpass every time unless your team has nothing to outspeed Smeargle or something dumb like that. Every time I lose to a smashpass team it's because I make a mistake (or I get lucked, more commonly), not because the strategy is broken. Try to sneak some set-up in there, make smart use of phazers, hit shit with strong band/specs attacks... no matter what your team is, smashpass is beaten by smart play.
I think its broken. It sickens me to use it, but I do and am currently ranked right under TLK (32nd, I believe). The strategy is IMMENSLY easy to use, and even can be mistake forgiving, to an extent. Also, Espeon is simply a godsend of a BP user. Great speed, 130 base special attack, and with one shell smash, stored power is a base 140 power. That just seems absolutely amazing. The rest of the moves I run (hp fighting, shadow ball) are only to not get walled by dark types (hp fighting for things like houndoom, and shadow ball for things like spirtomb). I have even tweaked my team so that milotic can't touch this team. The only pokemon that I even worry about anymore is Murkrow with MH/prankster haze.
Haze won't do anything to my team, due to my preperations (at the cost of smeargle getting a little more inconsistant. Roar/WW can't touch Espeon, while d-tail with sub up, can't break through a sub in most cases.
I think being able to run Azelf as a screener is like having our own deo(d) here, but without weather, decent MH users, and the inability to outspeed my pokes (at least in OU, Excadril/Chlorphil users had a chance to take me out after Shellsmash if their base speed was higher).
I admit, I am not a random scrub, but I do not believe I should be this high on the ladder with a team that I just made maybe a week or more ago, and had no experience with, or read a guide to, aside from playing against a few users, and noting their teams. Just my thoughts on the matter...
I know exactly which team you're talking about.
Here's a hint: have a boosting sweeper with substitute on your team, immediately throw it into the lead position and set it up on Ninjask. Mismagius works wonderfully, as does SubCM or SubSD Cobalion. Your other option to have a high-powered choice band/specs user spamming powerful attacks at the beginning of the match. Specs Rotom-A, Specs Kingdra, CB Rhyperior, and CB Azumarill all fit the bill.
Basically, the team is most vulnerable during the first five turns of the game. If that team can't get its defense boosts up in a timely manner, the entire strategy is fucked. So the goal is to either set up offensive boosts before they set up their defensive boosts, or just start hitting hard right off the bat before any iron defense/amnesia users can make it into the chain.
Edit: I will say that these baton pass teams do have a tendency to make games really stupid. It either comes down to hax or team matchups. I think this is the same problem Adv people were having with bpass, except it's substantially exacerbated now because Espeon fucks any standard attempt at getting rid of it (especially taunt).
It's not flawed logic at all actually. Ton's of players refuse to use Pokemon because they find them broken. Wobbuffet is an example of one that fits this catagory perfectly. Now, when you're talking about a suspect test, its different because in the past you needed to actually use the suspect to qualify for voting. But, in this case, playing against annoying ass things is good enough to justify banning them from the other side of the pond so to speak.
I'm not necessarily a proponent of banning the Pokemon, but rather just Baton Pass in general. You guys are acting like its easy to just kill Espeon. Espeon isn't a bad Pokemon defensively, and you can just BP out to something that counters whatever comes in. As for Taunt, well remember that after some boosts, you're gonna be able to do some heavy damage. Kinda stupid that you HAVE to run a combination of Haze and Dragon Tail or a super duper priority filled offensive team to deal with Baton Passers ya know? And UU has a ton of great BP recipients and BP passers, namely Espon, CELEBI, MEW, i could go on and on but I'll refrain.
No, wrong. Is must be so convenient for your agenda to forget the existence of leftovers. Chansey of DPP takes special hits better than the Bold Eviolite set, and it really isn't close when you also factor in entry hazards and passive damage.
I only brought up Slowbro because you did with your attempt to make Chansey appear like a great physical wall. Slowbro's base defenses although good are not really spectacular and it is really its ability that gives it a significant boost. Chansey takes neutral hits from almost all physical attackers and without automatic recovery, it really won't be walling much physical attackers without sacrificing some of its special bulk.
I don't have an agenda. Every single one of my teams shit on Chansey completely. If Chansey is not banned then I will keep making teams in that way, I'd just prefer not to have my options restricted by an imbalanced fat pink whore.
You're right, I didn't take lefties into account, because I was referring to pure walling potential. If you want to introduce battle conditions, let's start with what you're hoping to gain by taking 18% as opposed to 20% from the special attacks you're going to be walling by running a more specially defensive spread. The entire point is that Chansey's special defense is already so gargantuan that nothing in UU can break it without a ridiculous amount of set up. And while this was true in DPP UU as well, it was balanced by Chansey's physical frailty. It's definitely not physically frail anymore, as evidenced by the comparisons to 'Bro.
I don't have a problem with you bringing up Slowbro, I have a problem with your implication that Slowbro's ability and typing made it a superior wall when Chansey's mixed walling capabilities and support options frankly embarrass anything Slowbro can do.
Chansey can safely wall LO Rhyperior and beat CM Raikou with the same set. Please explain to me how that's not "walling much physical attackers" or "sacrificing special bulk".
Edit for ToF:
ToF said:
I know people refuse to use Pokemon because they find them broken, I just think that's counterproductive, hence my post. Wobbuffet might well be completely broken, but I won't ever know that if the only people using it on the ladder are scrubs (which frankly seems to be the case so far, with a couple of exceptions). Even the most broken suspects can be beaten with superior play, so if good players don't use suspects then those suspects are unlikely to be banned.
I will absolutely not vote to ban Baton Pass, that would be like voting to ban Swords Dance because Garchomp and Blaziken are broken. I use Baton Pass all the time on random sweepers with poor coverage, and single-pass teams like mine are perfectly balanced and healthy for the metagame, and even pure Bpass teams can be healthy. The fact that is that Baton Pass teams were perfectly manageable in 4th gen because you could whirlwind/taunt/perish song/yawn/whatever them with relative ease. Baton Pass got no major boosts this generation besides Espeon (and also Yawn not being passable, although that might just be a PO bug), and that's what really breaks it imo. You could argue "well ninjask/celebi/mew were not UU last gen", and that's true, but Bpass wasn't broken in OU either, and DPP OU's power level is very comparable to UU's right now.
The reason Baton Pass is such a problem right now is because we're in a very similar situation to where the 3rd gen players were - we have a very powerful strategy that just does not have good counters. In 3rd gen this was due to a lack of moves like taunt and move distribution issues, but now it's due to Espeon making half of those moves completely useless. If we could get Bpass back to its 4th gen power levels by banning Espeon (who, I will add, was OU last round anyway) then I think people would have significant fewer problems with it.
And, full disclosure, I'm still not sure if bpass teams are broken, I just think games against them are really fucking gay. The smashpass teams I don't care about because they never pass defensive boosts, which makes it easy to beat.
I would agree that espeon isnt gonna like to take repeated attacks, unless its behind reflect/light screen which it should be, its still pretty bulky on its own and is threatening by continuing to BP or set up CM but no opponent is gonna really switch/leave espeon in on something that can beat it with a strong attack...espeon is a utility used when a potential taunt or phazer threatens the shell pass chain...and most taunters and phazers are not really strong attackers right off the bat, OR are already threatened by the one who is doing shell smash passing, Gorebyss and Huntail are threatening on their own once they get a shell smash..
lol I wish some BP teams could be that easy against their counters (which ALOT of them are) One of the biggest problems with smash pass teams, is that matches are predetermined..either they can immediately beat you or you'll have a good match on your hands of trying to stop it..But hey packing priority users and haze never does any harm to anyone and I would agree that there is never any wrong to packing haze not just for BP teams
Also if the bounced back roar switched in a poke like escavilier, then thats luck right there as it couldve switched in any other 5 pokes..
EDIT: I dont want to make another contreversial arguement like I did last time (lol which still might happen now) but we can all agree that BP teams and shell smash teams would be easier dealt with without espeon? because everytime the idea of BP comes up, it comes right along with espeon
If two equally skilled players play a game that comes down to 50-50 guesses, nothing is broken
But really, the person using smashpass is not in a situation to predict. Unless the two battlers have already fought, it's incredibly dangerous doing something like taunting Mismagius with your Azelf instead of setting up screens. Even if the player using smashpass makes a prediction, one wrong prediction means they lose Gorebyss / screens / their receiver, essentially a mispredict loses the game. The person playing against smashpass is the one who can strike "first blood" with good predictions, and making the most of that opportunity is how you beat smashpass.
I'd taunt you with azelf, then you hit me with shadowball(and yes azelf would be bulky enough to survive the first hit, damn if it isnt then something is wrong with that azelf) and then I set up light screen and then you KO me...then i switch in my smash passer...the situation is now: you have a taunted mismagius and I have a smash passer behind a light screen...yeah right now I have the upper hand..there is really too much risk for BP teams to have a poke behind a sub..ive won a few matches because the team made that mistake...that's a difference between a good player and a bad player
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