Whenever I see Milotic, it's basically set up fodder for Raikou, as the life orb tank's hydro pump 2hkos Gallade with sr down I believe. Milotic usage has died a little bit.
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np: UU - The Boys Are Back in Town
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Whenever I see Milotic, it's basically set up fodder for Raikou, as the life orb tank's hydro pump 2hkos Gallade with sr down I believe. Milotic usage has died a little bit.
Very little on it's own "beats" Frosslass 1v1 as a lead. I just taunt and then Destiny Bond Arcanine as any Anti-Lead froslass would do. To have a surefire way to beat it with out it DBing you, you need a turn 1 u-turn to a faster Pokemon or non sucker Punch/Fighting Priority that will KO it. That or a faster taunt (a whopping 5 pokemon)
It is seriously the most GOD DAMN annoying lead in UU. I really don't know if that is grounds for making it BL but it over centralizes the leads to a ridiculous extent.
This does give me an idea for OU Gengar set
Anyone think Sneasel might be useful? 115 Spe, 95 Atk and Taunt, STAB Priority, Inner Focus and STAB Pursuit
nevermind, sneasel is terrible
Been using this gallade with some success
Gallade@Life orb
Evs:4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Nature:Adamant
-Encore
-Sword dance
-Close combate
-Shadow Sneak
.....
This is just a make up of the standard SD set at first glance,But it does great against set up boosters(Raikou and Crotomb in pacticular) Come in on a Pokemon thats setting up then Encore,You can SD freely now.While you can wreak havoc with an unresisted offensive Combo.
As for sneasel:Sneasel is actually a pretty neat idea.Frosslass can only lay one set of spikes while being pursuited to death,But yeah you should only use sneasel if you have a hard time with frosslass.
Gallade@Life orb
Evs:4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Nature:Adamant
-Encore
-Sword dance
-Close combate
-Shadow Sneak
.....
This is just a make up of the standard SD set at first glance,But it does great against set up boosters(Raikou and Crotomb in pacticular) Come in on a Pokemon thats setting up then Encore,You can SD freely now.While you can wreak havoc with an unresisted offensive Combo.
As for sneasel:Sneasel is actually a pretty neat idea.Frosslass can only lay one set of spikes while being pursuited to death,But yeah you should only use sneasel if you have a hard time with frosslass.
Sneasel is just a worse version of ambipom really. Same base speed, basically the same movepool except Ambipoms is better, Ambipom has higher attack, Ambipom's pursuit is more powerful than Sneasel's....
Also frosslass' Sp Att is really pretty insignificant so Sneasel's slight advantage by resisting ice beam doesn't count for much.
Sneasel has a cool niche as a lead with Inner Focus and Counter. Most people think that Sneasel has the same ability as Weavile (Pressure) meaning most Ambipom leads will Fake Out right away and get countered back. Sneasel has the speed to Taunt, and Pursuit to take out Froslass. I think the most likely lead set would be something like Ice Punch / Pursuit / Counter / Taunt and maybe Fake Out somwhere. Outside of a lead, however, it doesn't seem like it has many advantages over Ambipom. This is really just meant to beat most other leads and prevent set up.
I agree, I've been running a Taunt / Ice Shard / Counter / Pursuit Lead Sneasel, and while it has trouble dishing out damage, it always keep Spikes off, and nearly always guarantees Ambipom, Kangaskhan, etc...will be dead.
I agree overall with this rundown, except Gallade to me is also UU.
The main offensive threats in UU are mostly base 80-95 speed, leaving Gallade to at best speed tie other base 80s like Venusaur and Blaziken. Arcanine, Leafeon, Nidoking and all the other faster threats can easily revenge kill Gallade, especially after a CC drop.
Gallade can run Shadow Sneak to balance his speed, but then he'll lose SE coverage and get walled by either Slowbro or Altaria. Even if Gallade keeps Night Slash for Slowbro, a +2 LO Night Slash from Jolly Gallade only does 65-78 against a defensive Slowbro, leaving Gallade open to an attack.
Gallade is great, but a prepared team can either revenge or wall him after the first kill. Not broken IMO.
I've been using a Hariyama lead and it's been really effective. Payback + Bullet Punch means Froslass can get at most 1 layer no matter what. Flame Orb protects me from status and Spiritomb can't really touch him, it's been really cool. And he works great alongside Psychic pokes, especially Wish users like Hypno.
Sneasel can't really be compared with Ambipom that easily, as they're rather different. Ambipom obviously has the stronger STAB, whilst Sneasel has two decent STABs that cover a lot of threats for super-effective damage. Ambipom only has priority on the first turn, whilst Sneasel has two priority moves that cover both situations, although I think Fake Out is pretty meh on Sneasel and wastes its other better options. Still, it means that it can beat lead Alakazam more easily among other things. Inner Focus also means it can generally win out when they face eachother one-on-one, but Technician is by far the superior trait overall. Ambipom is SR neutral and can therefore come in and revenge-kill more often, whilst Sneasel has the better sweeping option in Swords Dance, albeit hard to pull off in UU.
Ambipom is definitely the better Pokemon overall, but Sneasel has different qualities, therefore it does have its niches depending on what your team needs.
On another note, I have been toying with the idea of mixed lead Sceptile, though I have had little chance to test it yet. With a set of Leaf Storm / Rock Slide / Earthquake / Quick Attack, it appears to have some decent potential as an anti-lead. It has the option of jabbing Ambipom with a Quick Attack before Fake Out, as well as outrunning and 2HKOing Froslass, with a 27% chance of preventing Spikes period. Also, Focus Sash can sometimes guarantee at least one turn to unleash an Overgrow'd Leaf Storm. This is in addition to its ability to revenge-kill many things lategame, including Raikou, Ambipom and NP Missy. By replacing Quick Attack with Focus Punch, and attaching a boosting item, it could also easily adapt itself into the role of stallbreaker, capable of beating most stall members with adequate prediction. I really should start exploring Sceptile a little more....
Ambipom is definitely the better Pokemon overall, but Sneasel has different qualities, therefore it does have its niches depending on what your team needs.
On another note, I have been toying with the idea of mixed lead Sceptile, though I have had little chance to test it yet. With a set of Leaf Storm / Rock Slide / Earthquake / Quick Attack, it appears to have some decent potential as an anti-lead. It has the option of jabbing Ambipom with a Quick Attack before Fake Out, as well as outrunning and 2HKOing Froslass, with a 27% chance of preventing Spikes period. Also, Focus Sash can sometimes guarantee at least one turn to unleash an Overgrow'd Leaf Storm. This is in addition to its ability to revenge-kill many things lategame, including Raikou, Ambipom and NP Missy. By replacing Quick Attack with Focus Punch, and attaching a boosting item, it could also easily adapt itself into the role of stallbreaker, capable of beating most stall members with adequate prediction. I really should start exploring Sceptile a little more....
Lol, just posting to say that I've seen a few Regirock, all who annoyed me because...
They ran EQ!
Honestly, this is just something that I want to vent about. EQ is redundant with Regirock, since many of the things you use it on threaten it, and in those situations, you either switch or Explode.
Hammer Arm (a suggestion from Lemmiwinks to me a while back) is far superior. It solidly OHKOs Ambipom, a huge threat, and also takes on a whole other bunch of Normal-types. For example, it eases prediction/stalling out by Chansey, since you don't want to Explode on a Protect or just get PP stalled out of your valuable Stone Edge.
It still hits Steels with the same power (though you're not going to stay in on Steelix), and also provides a good option for Magneton (since it's going to Magnet Rise anyways).
But I suppose none of this matters, since Rhyperior is used way more anyways.
They ran EQ!
Honestly, this is just something that I want to vent about. EQ is redundant with Regirock, since many of the things you use it on threaten it, and in those situations, you either switch or Explode.
Hammer Arm (a suggestion from Lemmiwinks to me a while back) is far superior. It solidly OHKOs Ambipom, a huge threat, and also takes on a whole other bunch of Normal-types. For example, it eases prediction/stalling out by Chansey, since you don't want to Explode on a Protect or just get PP stalled out of your valuable Stone Edge.
It still hits Steels with the same power (though you're not going to stay in on Steelix), and also provides a good option for Magneton (since it's going to Magnet Rise anyways).
But I suppose none of this matters, since Rhyperior is used way more anyways.
You shouldn't forget that Raikou is now a prominent threat in the metagame, and for some people Regirock might be their only decent check. In such a case, EQ would be the preferred option. I still prefer Hammer Arm in most cases though, as Raikou is rarely a big problem, and there are much better Pokemon than Regirock for that. Except maybe if I am using it as a Donphan lure on a hazards dependent team, as Hammer Arm lowers speed, thus making it unable to outrun and explode on Donphan before the spin. That's the only team situation I can think of where I'd prefer to run EQ.
lemmiwinks point about sceptile being an unexplored pokemon of sorts made me think about its capabilities, and it is quite suited for something like a mixed wall breaker. i was doing some calcs to see if i could make a nice spread for it, and i found some stuff that loves coming in on sceptile, like registeel and chansey. luckily sceptile got low kick with hgss tutors, and i have a mixed set that aims to make good use of it.
sceptile @ life orb
156 atk / 216 spe / 136 satk | naive
~ leaf storm
~ low kick
~ hp ice
~ synthesis
leaf storm is borderline ridiculous, and it strips at least 50% of everything that doesnt resist it. it even does 52% average to +1 0/0 raikou, which means it functions fairly well as a revenge killer to it. the evs outspeed raikou. i didnt run 252 because of sceptile's lackluster attacking stats, which need every point they can get. low kick + 156 atk evs means you will 2hko registeel 87% of the time if he comes in on sr and has leftovers. hp ice is filler but it hits the bulky grasses that have been plaguing uu + altaria for se damage. you could try eq for more raikou coverage, but otherwise its pretty redundant alongside low kick. synthesis + lots of speed sets this apart from, say, venusaur. overall, im impressed by sceptile
sceptile @ life orb
156 atk / 216 spe / 136 satk | naive
~ leaf storm
~ low kick
~ hp ice
~ synthesis
leaf storm is borderline ridiculous, and it strips at least 50% of everything that doesnt resist it. it even does 52% average to +1 0/0 raikou, which means it functions fairly well as a revenge killer to it. the evs outspeed raikou. i didnt run 252 because of sceptile's lackluster attacking stats, which need every point they can get. low kick + 156 atk evs means you will 2hko registeel 87% of the time if he comes in on sr and has leftovers. hp ice is filler but it hits the bulky grasses that have been plaguing uu + altaria for se damage. you could try eq for more raikou coverage, but otherwise its pretty redundant alongside low kick. synthesis + lots of speed sets this apart from, say, venusaur. overall, im impressed by sceptile
^
Just ran the calcs on that Sceptile versus Registeel and Chansey. Low Kick actually has a 87% 2HKO on standard Registeel w/o Leftovers and 30% 2HKO with Leftovers. That's still not bad considering Registeel won't always be 100% switching in.
The problem is that it only does 39%-46% on Chansey, allowing Chansey to stall it out.
Just ran the calcs on that Sceptile versus Registeel and Chansey. Low Kick actually has a 87% 2HKO on standard Registeel w/o Leftovers and 30% 2HKO with Leftovers. That's still not bad considering Registeel won't always be 100% switching in.
The problem is that it only does 39%-46% on Chansey, allowing Chansey to stall it out.
Well, I've been running a venusaur as my main raikou counter. I just have to pray it doesn't carry hp:ice. I have to say that raikou has become more than a pest. It easily sweeps teams and is sure to be BL once again. The set I've been running is:
Venusaur (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Sludge Bomb
- Energy Ball
- Earthquake
- Synthesis
EQ still breaks raikou's subs and deals on average 40% damage iirc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm having a hard time finding a solid 2nd counter to it that can stay alive just as long as venusaur. I have also noticed that grass types, namely venusaur have been raping this metagame. It's like a bulkier roserade without natural cure. I also I have to disagree with drop in milotic usage. She is on just about every team I've faced. Although, CB azumarill has had a large spike in usage. People are just trying everything and the metagame has moved more towards bulky offense/semi-stall/stall. It's amazing to see so many stall teams in a metagame with so many offensive toys to play with. That's all I can think of for now, but I'm sure I'll have more later.
Venusaur (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Sludge Bomb
- Energy Ball
- Earthquake
- Synthesis
EQ still breaks raikou's subs and deals on average 40% damage iirc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm having a hard time finding a solid 2nd counter to it that can stay alive just as long as venusaur. I have also noticed that grass types, namely venusaur have been raping this metagame. It's like a bulkier roserade without natural cure. I also I have to disagree with drop in milotic usage. She is on just about every team I've faced. Although, CB azumarill has had a large spike in usage. People are just trying everything and the metagame has moved more towards bulky offense/semi-stall/stall. It's amazing to see so many stall teams in a metagame with so many offensive toys to play with. That's all I can think of for now, but I'm sure I'll have more later.
I've actually seen a couple of RoarSub Moltres plying their trade on stall teams recently, which is the main reason why I'd hesitate to drop Rock Slide. Otherwise HP Ice would be perfect as a full replacement, always 2HKOing Altaria and 1-2HKOing Jumpluff, as well as hitting an assortment of other Grass types hard.
The move problem is the reason why I wouldn't go with Synthesis, as it limits the versatility too much. I'd rather go with four attacks, i.e. Leaf Storm / HP Ice / Earthquake / Fighting move, with Rock Slide possibly replacing either HP Ice or Earthquake. Low Kick works best for Registeel, but I'd still prefer Focus Punch for knocking out Chansey either on the switch or 1v1 when predicting status or recovery. A combination of Focus Punch and Earthquake can 2HKO Registeel, and these Pokes aren't that hard to predict given that they love coming in on those threatening Leaf Storms.
That set doesn't always beat Raikou even if they aren't running HP Ice or Fire. Max SpA Shuca Raikou does an average of 39% with +1 T-Bolt, which is a 3HKO, and more even with Shadow Ball. As for a second counter that can fit alongside Venusaur, you could try a Wish Umbreon, as they cover some of eachother's weaknesses quite well. Give this a try:
Umbreon @ Leftovers
Synchronize
Careful
252 HP / 76 Atk / 180 SpD
~ Payback
~ Curse / Heal Bell / Yawn
~ Wish
~ Protect / Moonlight
With the given Attack EVs, Payback is guaranteed to break all Subs and is guaranteed to 3HKO any min / min variants. The special defense means that Umbreon takes an average of ~37% from max +1 T-Bolt, which can be stalled by Wish and Protect / Moonlight, whilst any further Calm Minds gives you more of an opportunity to wear it down with Paybacks. Rest assured that a +2 T-Bolt won't 2HKO either at full health. The second slot is just for whatever you need Umbreon to do most. This guy definitely has the ability to last for most of the match with its excellent bulk and recovery options, both for itself and others.
I don't know why testing was even necessary, it's so obvious Raikou, Gallade and Frosslass should remain in BL regardless of the new rules, the tier was much more fun without them. Now everyone has them on their team, my old teams which used to do well in UU are now useless.
Rhyperior is okay, since his SpD and Spe are low enough he's easily to deal with (I love tracing Solid Rock with Porygon2 as well), Alakazam is easy to deal with provided you have sucker punch or a powerful fake out. Curse Umbreon is really annoying and I don't know if it's UU material or BL.
Rhyperior is okay, since his SpD and Spe are low enough he's easily to deal with (I love tracing Solid Rock with Porygon2 as well), Alakazam is easy to deal with provided you have sucker punch or a powerful fake out. Curse Umbreon is really annoying and I don't know if it's UU material or BL.
How ‘fun’ the metagame is has no bearing on the tiering of suspects. Besides, I’m finding this new metagame much more fun at the moment, with as yet no ‘standard’ team from a pool of 6-8 Pokes rising to dominance. That may change somewhere down the line, but for now the metagame is gloriously diverse.
As for new additions and previous BLs, the only ones I’m still slightly on the fence about are Froslass and Gallade, not Raikou as I firmly believe UU has enough of the necessary tools for dealing with it, though it will always be a top-tier threat. I have not seen anything from Alakazam or Rhyperior to consider them in any way broken, whilst Umbreon wasn’t BL material before and isn’t now either.
With Gallade, he may possibly qualify for BL under a mixture of the Offensive and Support Characteristics, as while I don’t think he can ’sweep’ by himself with ease, his ability to ‘punch holes’ to make life easier for other threats should not be underestimated. I still need much more time to play against and test him more, but that is the key feature of Gallade that I am paying particular attention to this time round, and one that just failed to convince me of his brokenness last time round. As for Froslass, I also need to test her more as I personally think most people aren’t using her right at this moment in time. People are using her as a lead and often suiciding no matter what the situation, which doesn’t always work (in fact rarely works in my experience), and may well be wasting her true potential. By saving her for later, she stands more chance of acquiring that beautiful luxury that is a free turn, which can make all the difference with her supporting potential. Unfortunately, I have seen very little of this so far.
As for another Pokemon I am looking closely at, what do people think about Honchkrow now? For me, it is the one Pokemon that is looking like the most likely BL candidate right now. With a simple max Attack LO set of Brave Bird, Superpower, Sucker Punch and either HP Grass or Roost, it is incredibly potent. In a similar way to Gallade, it is unlikely to outright sweep by itself, but its ’hole-punching’ ability may see it cross the borderline by skating between two of the Characteristics. Very, very little can switch in and reliably deal with Honchkrow, who doesn’t even have much moveslot troubles anymore, so ‘significant portion of the metagame’ easily applies here IMO. Still plenty of time for the metagame to adapt though.
Oh shit Zam in UU is gonna be hell *faint calling of Chansey in the distance*
I've found Defensive Rhyperior and Toxicroak to be a freaking amazing combination. The problem being that several new setup sweepers have been introduced to the metagame that Toxicroak can't really threaten. Please welcome my new Toxicroak set (although I'm sure SOMEONE has thought of this before, it's still damn effective in this metagame):
Toxicroak@Leftovers
4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Jolly/Dry Skin
-Substitute
-Focus Punch
-Sucker Punch
-Taunt
Fighting/Dark = perfect coverage. Taunt prevents setup (sure, Zam (Note: Encore Zam still beats it by Encoring substitute)/Raikou can get a sub up before the taunt goes off, but SP or FP breaks it as they break yours, meaning they end up taunted, without a sub, and waiting for you to swap in a counter), and guarantees Sucker Punch (they can't use another move to get out of it). STAB Focus Punch is going to murder anything that doesn't outright resist it, and Sub blocks status (like Tomb's WoW, he can't even break sub without boosts from a band or CM) and eases prediction.
Rhyperior draws out waters like no other, and with so many CB Azumarril running around, AJ is a perfect chance to set up. I had several matches where I alternated between Toxicroak and Rhyperior, chipping away at each of their counters with every switch until they eventually died and let me sweep.
Toxicroak@Leftovers
4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Jolly/Dry Skin
-Substitute
-Focus Punch
-Sucker Punch
-Taunt
Fighting/Dark = perfect coverage. Taunt prevents setup (sure, Zam (Note: Encore Zam still beats it by Encoring substitute)/Raikou can get a sub up before the taunt goes off, but SP or FP breaks it as they break yours, meaning they end up taunted, without a sub, and waiting for you to swap in a counter), and guarantees Sucker Punch (they can't use another move to get out of it). STAB Focus Punch is going to murder anything that doesn't outright resist it, and Sub blocks status (like Tomb's WoW, he can't even break sub without boosts from a band or CM) and eases prediction.
Rhyperior draws out waters like no other, and with so many CB Azumarril running around, AJ is a perfect chance to set up. I had several matches where I alternated between Toxicroak and Rhyperior, chipping away at each of their counters with every switch until they eventually died and let me sweep.
I find this metagame to be extremely volatile, compared to the previous editions. It feels like January all over again.
That said, I wish I had more time to be a part of the testing process. Meh, school sucks.
EDIT: You know, I just realized that I've seen so many people with Lum Berry Gallade and Leaf Blade. Gives me this mushy feeling inside. :naughty:
That said, I wish I had more time to be a part of the testing process. Meh, school sucks.
EDIT: You know, I just realized that I've seen so many people with Lum Berry Gallade and Leaf Blade. Gives me this mushy feeling inside. :naughty:
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